Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

What are current plans for survey options? There's quite a bit of questionable mons and it's difficult to cover everything. Roaring moon, kingambit, kyurem, gouging fire, volcarona(haven't had much trouble but that's because people haven't wanted to spend their tera on it) archaludon. I've seen a few mentions of raging bolt, which I can understand. And if we're not moving on them, when can we open talks about Tera again?

Also, thoughts on garg in current meta?
 
I agree with finch that banning Hypnosis is probably the worst option, but banning forced Sleep simply because we have one former Uber allowed down is still bad policy. If Darkrai (a recently dropped Uber conceptually based around Sleep) and Iron Valiant (which has been on the radar since the start of the generation) are the problem users, there is no reason to keep them in the tier. I personally don't think any action should be taken but if action should be taken, it should be done on individual Pokemon. Amoongus isn't broken, nor are other sleep inducers (Torkoal, Clodsire, Venusaur, Ninetales-A).


It's consistent because most "lost" games can just be autowon 60% of the time, while in good matchups you don't have to click hypnosis at all if it's too risky. An option for such a huge momentum swing 60% of the time favoring you to win the game is absurdly good, especially with all the setup sweepers that prey on free turns. Sleep immunities are limited to Garganacl and Gholdengo which do not beat Darkrai.

This is not an argument to ban Darkrai though, we should not ban Darkrai to preserve a mod based on a gen 1 game and all of the uncompetitive rng fishing that comes with preserving sleep.
This absolutely is a reason to ban Darkrai though lol, the consistent argument here for the Ban Sleep camp is that the problem is that two insanely powerful offensive threats can beat some counters 60% of the time. Is anyone prepared to argue that Hypnosis Gengar is a problem if Darkrai and Iron Valiant are banned? I'm doubtful because Gengar lacks the same qualities as either of them (namely, great speed tiers). Is ANYONE using Hypnosis in tour play outside of the OU users and Ninetales-A?? I also don't get the big deal about Sleep Clause not being faithful when other clauses function the exact same way. Is OHKO clause next and we're just going to individually ban OHKO moves? How about banning Ice Beam and Blizzard in Gen 1? The idea that we have to simulate the cartridges exactly isn't realistic or good policy and would completely upend things like accepted movepools in certain generations and desynching. No one is going to say Gen 4-5 Gengar should have Nasty Plot, Judgment, and Aura Sphere because of the Rage glitch.


consistency is not required to be banned. Swagplay was never really all that consistent. You could just get RNG obliterated out of the game. Same deal with evasion and OHKO moves (at least at the time they were originally banned).
I think this raises an excellent point, because one of the primary positions in the Swagplay debate was that we should just ban the Confusion status instead. Banning Swagger was the correct move because it was the actual problematic element of the strategy. Should we ban Para+Sub strategies in Gen 3 LC, ban Paralysis moves, or ban Substitute?

the fact that it is inconsistent and yet so prominent arguably highlights the issue here and why it falls under uncompetitive rather than fundamentally broken akin to some other would-be suspect/ban targets
So let's refer to the above and ask if Paralysis is uncompetitive. Using one turn to either force a 25% turn deficit in the long run on top of outspeeding everything is a pretty steep benefit. What differentiates Sleep from other status conditions like Confusion and Paralysis? How are we determining what is acceptable luck-based move skipping and what isn't?
 

veti

Supreme Overlord
is a Pre-Contributor
Is OHKO clause next
OHKO Clause is not a mod.

How about banning Ice Beam and Blizzard in Gen 1?
Gen 1 is a unique case and has a history separate from smogon, freeze clause would not go over well in any modern gen. Even got removed in gen 3 and 4.


The idea that we have to simulate the cartridges exactly isn't realistic or good policy
Maybe in other generations like Gen 1 freeze/sleep clause that are vital to make progress or Gen 3 switch order mod to remove an uncompetitive mechanic, but there is no real downside to removing sleep clause mod in Gen 9.

No one is going to say Gen 4-5 Gengar should have Nasty Plot, Judgment, and Aura Sphere because of the Rage glitch.
Banning glitches is completely different than modding the game to create impossible gamestates.
 
Wouldn't it be crazy if you doubled into a physical attacker?
Wouldn't it be crazy if the stall player can also make predicts and just leave Gliscor in, getting another 12%? It seems like in all of your posts, the offensive player is the only one to be able to make predicts. Wouldn't it be crazy if you READ MY POST and saw this?
Wouldn't it be crazy if the stall player could predict you as well?
 
I'm all for banning sleep since it is incredibly uncompetitive for reasons discussed at large, though I must say few are highlighting the following sequence of events:

1) Drop Uber
2) Oh no it is uncompetitive
3) Send Uber back
3) Change a clause that has been on Smogon for over a decade iirc

Fuck sleep but god damn that is a weird turn of events, I guess Darkrai is indeed a fan favorite

I'm hopeful we'll soon get rid of Kyurem and Gouging Fire as well. Hazard vulnerability isn't a problem if you almost guarantee something is dying the moment you hit the field. They borderline guarantee a +0 at minimum, and dedicated walls don't work that well as many have shown with calcs.

Unrelated: Fuck Gliscor
 
I think I threw up in my mouth a little

Iron Crown doesn’t really have anything to its name other, better Psychics don’t. They can make better use of Tera Fighting Blast, they can make use of better Defensive Teras, etc.
1705562933392.png

The exact midpoint between stronk and fast eforce ig? Scraping the bottom of the barrel here.
 

senorlopez

Formerly Ricardo [old]
Moreover, I am hoping to see support of sleep moves and Kyurem in the upcoming survey. I would love to have enough support for the council to vote on sleep moves and then pivot into a community suspect on Kyurem, allowing both to be tackled cleanly and promptly.
What's the threshold for a council vote as opposed to a community suspect?
 
Wouldn't it be crazy if the stall player can also make predicts and just leave Gliscor in, getting another 12%? It seems like in all of your posts, the offensive player is the only one to be able to make predicts. Wouldn't it be crazy if you READ MY POST and saw this?
Well then it becomes a game of making good predicts and mid-ground plays. What's wrong with that?
 

Bluwing

icequeen
is a Tutor Alumnus
Tell me what you would think of sleep if Sleep Mod Clause did not exist. As in, without a mod (that should not exist because it does not exist on cartridge, cartridge > your feelings) meaning that Pokemon can Sleep your entire team in a row. Please tell me which you think you would find more problematic.

Well funny story, even if you don't say it we already know; Sleep Mod Clause exists because sleep is several times more problematic than paralysis in effect. Without Sleep Mod Clause, which is a fake solution to a real problem.
Your question is irrelevant as smogon doesn’t follow all the cartridge mechanics/rules. Doubles is the main format of pokemon and it’s not hard to see that certain mechanics and rules for doubles/cartridge would be problematic in a 6v6 singles competetive match.

I also told you that I think sleep clause is fine as it is now, without it it would be inherently broken, and you already knew the answer to this question.

Take your narcissism elsewhere or actually make a contribution to the discussion at hand.
 
chat what if sleep clause was changed to one mon per game, not at a time? So if you Hypnosis an enemy mon, you can't sleep another mon for the rest of the game.
The problem with this proposal is that it doesn't really fix any Sleep Clause issue except from preventing attempted resleeps on wakeup. It doesn't solve the problem of how to handle locking on the sleep move (via Encore or Trick) nor how to handle running out of PP on other moves.
 
Update: It was horrible. I thought it would be at least decent like when I tried it on sableye, but it could actually take hits, but most mons switch out on Ting-lu if they can't hurt it, and if they can, they hit it hard and switching is the better option.
If you use another Spiker (especially Samurott, since he is not blocked by Hatterene) and Rocker, Restalk + Whirlwind + EQ has been the best Ting-Lu set by far for me. When it has recovery, it can finally use the enormous bulk it has to check things in the long run. Raging Bolt is not 3HKOing you with DM if you can heal, with Tera Water you don't care about Specs Wake in Sun at all and can check well Kingambit, Gouging Fire, Volcarona, etc, well used Restalk Ting Lu is unkillable and with Hazards+Knock Off support will wear down the opposing team.
 
If you use another Spiker (especially Samurott, since he is not blocked by Hatterene) and Rocker, Restalk + Whirlwind + EQ has been the best Ting-Lu set by far for me. When it has recovery, it can finally use the enormous bulk it has to check things in the long run. Raging Bolt is not 3HKOing you with DM if you can heal, with Tera Water you don't care about Specs Wake in Sun at all and can check well Kingambit, Gouging Fire, Volcarona, etc, well used Restalk Ting Lu is unkillable and with Hazards+Knock Off support will wear down the opposing team.
I've tried rest ting lu, specifically chesto resto ting lu, and it is quite good. I love using the sleep + chesto sets because they mean you don't have to run sleep talk, meaning you have full health one time if you get low, which can sometimes be all you need. I once even tried rest garchomp, as I could switch it into a physical attack that didn't threaten it too much and still get value from it while asleep.
 
Sorry for the double post, but would you ever consider using avalugg in OU? I want a spinner on my team, but I don't want to use tusk/excadrill because they overlap a lot with the rest of my team. Probs not going to use it, but I remember it being on the early viability rankings for this meta.
 
Sorry for the double post, but would you ever consider using avalugg in OU? I want a spinner on my team, but I don't want to use tusk/excadrill because they overlap a lot with the rest of my team. Probs not going to use it, but I remember it being on the early viability rankings for this meta.
Interesting question, but why avalugg specifically, does it fit the team better than other options? What is the rest of the team like?

It may be a good shout, I just don't have enough info on the team to give an answer.
 
Interesting question, but why avalugg specifically, does it fit the team better than other options? What is the rest of the team like?

It may be a good shout, I just don't have enough info on the team to give an answer.
I have gambit, normal slowking (used to be tornadus-t), iron boulder, ting-lu and raging bolt. The one I swapped out was tentacruel for avalugg. After testing it a bit, it is decent. It is scared the ever loving crap out by anything that has a miniscule chance of having a special move, but if they don't it walls them forever. Ice+fighting moves are quite good coverage, as only volcarona, primarina, toxapex, skeledirge and ghold resist both moves. Which is actually more than I thought, but most other things in OU are hit super effectively by one (don't quote me on that, I may be embellishing my claims a bit.)
 

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