Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

I can’t believe i got to watch the OU forums over fucking sleep and here we are.
Unrelated but what are people’s thoughts on latios?
Since it's latias but higher attack and special attack and with worse bulk, and the best ways to use them are double dance sets with calm mind, agility, stored power, and aura sphere, latias is just better since the extra bulk makes setting up easier but latios's extra offenses doesn't really make a difference if you are using an agility+calm mind set (which is the best set for both mons.) In conclusion, just use latias.
 
Since it's latias but faster and with worse bulk, and the best ways to use them are double dance sets with calm mind, agility, stored power, and aura sphere, latias is just better since the extra bulk makes setting up easier but latios's extra speed doesn't really make a difference if you are using an agility+calm mind set (which is the best set for both mons.) In conclusion, just use latias.
Latios and Latias have the same speed stat. Latios has higher sp.A, and attack, while latias has higher sp.Defense and defense. Latias is superior in any double dance set, but if you want immediate power, latios is better, but considering those immediate power sets are worse than other mons with similar traits, latios unfortunately doesn't really have a use in OU. If you want to use an eon twin, use latias.
 
Latios and Latias have the same speed stat. Latios has higher sp.A, and attack, while latias has higher sp.Defense and defense. Latias is superior in any double dance set, but if you want immediate power, latios is better, but considering those immediate power sets are worse than other mons with similar traits, latios unfortunately doesn't really have a use in OU. If you want to use an eon twin, use latias.
Okay, editing my post. I knew it was some offensive stat.
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
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This scenario defeats the purpose of the 'gentleman's agreement'. "The optimal play is to keep Sporing" does not really matter in cases where you already agreed at the top of the battle to not sleep more than one pokemon. By the same logic, the 'optimal' play is to bring Flutter Mane and just click buttons. If youre saying the optimal play is to break the gentleman's agreement, youre not really talking about OU anymore.
The usual "gentleman's agreement" is a set of rules that both players agree to BEFORE starting the battle, our typical "Smogon Ruleset." This is cool and epic. What Meepbard is suggesting is a rule that both players agree to DURING battle, beyond the mechanics of the game. This is lame and cringe. Why are players agreeing to make suboptimal plays in certain gamestates? Seems like we're going against the spirit of competitive play.

Baton pass is a similar situation but not exactly the same. In this case, you're phrasing it as 'we only knew three pokemon were uncompetitive with Baton Pass'. But if you go back and look at past threads around the banning of baton pass, you'll realize it was far more than just Scolipede, Espeon, and Smeargle being talked about. There were other pokemon that were causing problematic scenarios and even additional pokemon you could mention in the way of: "If we ban Scolipede, don't we still have a similar problematic issue in Ninjask/Yanmega". There were far more than three pokemon that were broken with Baton Pass at the time. In the sleep discussion, it really is just three anyone is talking about. You might not want to waste more time finding out if new ones crop up, but there is no one even close to the horizon of popping up. And who would it be? Unova Lilligant? Vivillon? Are we still debating Amoonguss? I really don't feel the list of broken pokemon is that high, and the ones that do exist don't seem to add as much to the metagame as every possible Baton Pass user did (like 20% of the meta at the time, including necessary walls, so it really made no sense to ban pokemon specifically and not baton pass.)

I actually like debating why this doesn't work much more than the repetitive sleep conversations we've been having. Hopefully we can continue to have a productive conversation on this.
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For the sake of simplifying the argument, I condensed it down to 3 prominent abusers, but yeah...I'm old man...I actually suffered through baton pass chains on ladder back when it was legal. I know there were more than 3 busted baton pass users. However, Espeon's combination of Magic Bounce+Baton Pass was integral to every chain, and there's no way to know if banning Espeon would've been enough to nerf the playstyle. You're proving my point here, we just have the benefit of hindsight. Let's compare:

1) Maybe banning prominent abusers of Baton Pass would've solved the problem, maybe not. We don't want to find out, the correct action is banning Baton Pass -->8 years later everybody is happy :D
2) Maybe banning prominent abusers of Sleep would've solved the problem, maybe not. We don't want to find out, the correct action is banning Sleep moves (you are here) --> 8 years later everybody is happy :D

You joke about Unova Lilligant but I know Mimikyu Stardust was actually winning with it high ladder during the Home meta I think? Qd+Sleep Powder+Giga Drain+Tera Blast was enough to cheese some teams purely through the power of rng fishing with Sleep Powder. Chlorophyll Venusaur certainly has similar power and speed to Lilligant-Hisui under sun and can also Sleep Powder. None of these threats are close to popping up because the current ones are still here, and I don't want to find out if the above will replace them.
 
So when we started this debate, I sided with ban sleep purely because of the fact of wanting consistency with rulings, something which I made clear with the arguments I made. But as this debate has gone on, I am now in agreement that sleep is uncompetitive even without considering tiering policy, I will however even on this side of the argument maintain that "Well its always been OK" should not be seen as a valid argument. Letting a problem fester for years doesn't mean we should ignore it when people finally decide to do something about it.
As for why sleep is the focus over other status, its due to it being both RNG reliant, while still having dedicated inflicting moves, while also not actually doing anything else. Freeze would be a problem if something had a higher than a 10% chance to inflict it. Paralysis comes with a speed decrease so there's actually something besides preventing your opponent from doing anything entirely in there, and even then I wouldn't be opposed if Para got a look.
 
The usual "gentleman's agreement" is a set of rules that both players agree to BEFORE starting the battle, our typical "Smogon Ruleset." This is cool and epic. What Meepbard is suggesting is a rule that both players agree to DURING battle, beyond the mechanics of the game. This is lame and cringe. Why are players agreeing to make suboptimal plays in certain gamestates? Seems like we're going against the spirit of competitive play.
What are they agreeing to in the middle of the battle? MeepBard's agreement can happen easily at the top of the battle. At the start we agree to this: If I sleep a pokemon, I will not click my sleep move again unless the original mon is no longer asleep or I am 100% forced to . Simple enough. Players are agreeing to suboptimal plays because that is the agreement for proper competitive play. Its suboptimal to not bring Flutter Mane.. but that is the rules we agree to. (I know the Uber comparison is a little bluhh but it helps me make my point)

For the sake of simplifying the argument, I condensed it down to 3 prominent abusers, but yeah...I'm old man...I actually suffered through baton pass chains on ladder back when it was legal. I know there were more than 3 busted baton pass users. However, Espeon's combination of Magic Bounce+Baton Pass was integral to every chain, and there's no way to know if banning Espeon would've been enough to nerf the playstyle. You're proving my point here, we just have the benefit of hindsight. Let's compare:

1) Maybe banning prominent abusers of Baton Pass would've solved the problem, maybe not. We don't want to find out, the correct action is banning Baton Pass -->8 years later everybody is happy :D
2) Maybe banning prominent abusers of Sleep would've solved the problem, maybe not. We don't want to find out, the correct action is banning Sleep moves (you are here) --> 8 years later everybody is happy :D
History does repeat itself but not in every case. Just because that happened once does not mean it will happen twice. I think Baton Pass is kind of a different beast altogether mainly because i think stat passing was always broken and would never not be broken. But in this case we obviously cant know and you cant even know its not B) Maybe banning prominent abusers of Sleep would've solved the problem. We did want to find out :D, so we banned them --> 8 years later everyone is happy :D. I'm sure you know the situation of BP was more complex than I know and there were more ppl fighting for it and some users were arguably not broken,, but at the end of the day it seems like there was good evidence made and whole discussions showing it was not simply a few pokemon. I think that's already more of a reason that we have for sleep.. But feel free to read my next paragraph.

You joke about Unova Lilligant but I know Mimikyu Stardust was actually winning with it high ladder during the Home meta I think? Qd+Sleep Powder+Giga Drain+Tera Blast was enough to cheese some teams purely through the power of rng fishing with Sleep Powder. Chlorophyll Venusaur certainly has similar power and speed to Lilligant-Hisui under sun and can also Sleep Powder. None of these threats are close to popping up because the current ones are still here, and I don't want to find out if the above will replace them.
If Unova Lilligant is really a problem, I would like to hear about it more. I don't see it being a problem considering you are locked into only 2 coverage moves. What Tera Blast it is is the real question for me. Tera Fire? Most Dragons + Fires wall you hard as well as Slowking Galar/Clodsire. Tera Ice? You are hard walled by Kingambit + most steels, still most Fires, and still cant break Slowking Galar. Tera Ground? That's where the flyings start to come in and mess you up. Plus Blisseys always around. Yeah you can sleep the answer, but like Mr. Zamazenta its really not hard to find yourself having multiple Grass answers, although ig this still depends on Tera Type. And even then there's priority. That's impressive, but home meta was a while away at this point, so a lot has changed. But if it really is an issue I'd like to see it, genuinely. If even Unova Lilligant is a problem, that might change my perspective on sleep in this meta to see it like how y'all see it no joke. I just haven't seen that be an issue yet.
 

senorlopez

Formerly Ricardo [old]
When something gets above a 4.0 qualified score, that's generally quickban territory, and pokemon like Ogerpon-Hearthflame and Baxcalibur are examples of this. This has been a great time-saver, much better than a drawn out suspect test but also not completely "autocratic."
I have taken the time to note down the results and actions taking from each survey below more so as a reference than anything else and is not meant to draw ire to the decisions of the council. While the vast majority of instances have been community driven, i've highlighted some in red to back up my point of some decisions being discretionary:

Survey results Dec10 - 2022

- Annihilape received a qualified score of 3.5 (resulted in quickban action @ 8th Jan)
- Chi-Yu received a qualified score of 3.5 (resulted in quickban action @ 8th Jan)
- Cyclizar received a qualified score of 3.3 (resulted in quickban action @ 8th Jan)
- Espathra received a qualified score of 3.0 (resulted in no action)
- Gholdengo received a qualified score of 3.0 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Jan28 - 2023

- Chien-Pao received a qualified score of 4.105 (resulted in suspect test @ 8th Feb)
- Garganacl received a qualified score of 3.059 (resulted in no action)
- Espathra received a qualified score of 2.980 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Feb16 - 2023

- Espathra received a qualified score of 4.25 (resulted in quickban action @ 11th Feb)
- Garganacl received a qualified score of 3.44 (resulted in no action)
- Gholdengo received a qualified score of 2.09 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Feb26 - 2023

- Garganacl received a qualified score of 3.29 (resulted in no action)
- Volcarona received a qualified score of 2.97 (resulted in no action)
- Shed Tail received a qualified score of 3.10 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Apr22 - 2023

- Shed Tail received a qualified score of 4.30 (resulted in quickban action @ 15th May)
- Volcarona received a qualified score of 3.05 (resulted in no action)
- Kingambit received a qualified score of 2.92 (resulted in no action)
- Garganacl received a qualified score of 2.41 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Jun22 - 2023

- Chien-Pao received a qualified score of 4.63 (resulted in quickban action @ 7th Jun after no action decided 4th Jun)
- Zamazenta-Crowned received a qualified score of 4.4 (resulted in quickban action @ 7th Jun after no action decided 4th Jun)

- Urshifu-R received a qualified score of 3 (resulted in quickban action @ 11th Jun after no action decided @ 4th Jun)
- Volcarona received a qualified score of NULL (resulted in quickban action @ 11th Jun after no action decided @ 4th Jun)

- Zamazenta-Hero received a qualified score of ~3.7 (resulted in suspect test @ 11th Jun)
- Sneasler received a qualified score of 3.15 (resulted in no action)
- Ursaluna received a qualified score of 2.68 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Jul22 - 2023

- Volcarona received a qualified score of 2.89 (No action taken to reinstate)
- Kingambit received a qualified score of 3.46 (resulted in suspect test @ 26th Jul)
- Garganacl received a qualified score of 2.98 (resulted in no action)
- Iron Valiant received a qualified score of 2.42 (resulted in no action)
- Sneasler received a qualified score of 3.05 (resulted in no action)
- Baxcalbur received a qualified score of 1.86 (resulted in no action)
- Samurott-Hisui received a qualified score of 1.77 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Sep12 - 2023

- Volcarona received a qualified score of 3.51 (higher score indicating more desire to drop) (Vote to be held
to reinstate but I can't find it so don't know if happened or not or what the results were)


- Urshifu-R received a qualified score of 2.49 (higher score indicating more desire to drop) (no action taken)

Survey results Sep20 - 2023

- Baxcalibur received a qualified score of 4.64 (resulted in quickban action @ 17th Sep)
- Manapahy received a qualified score of 3.34 (resulted in no action)
- Ogerpon-Hearthflame received a qualified score of 3.69 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Nov1 - 2023 Part 1

- Ogerpon-Hearthflame received a qualified score of 4.02 (resulted in quickban action @ 23rd Sep)
- Gliscor received a qualified score of 2.21 (resulted in no action)
- UrsalunaB received a qualified score of 2.79 (resulted in suspect test @ 7th Oct)
- Manapahy received a qualified score of 3.3 (resulted in no action) (marked red)

While I agree with the outcome, suspecting UrsalunaB instead of Manapahy was not data driven based on the survey results.


Survey results Nov1 - 2023 Part 2

- Roaring Moon received a qualified score of 3.68 (resulted in suspect test @ 28th Oct)
- Manapahy received a qualified score of 3.37 (resulted in no action)
- Ogerpon-Wellspring received a qualified score of 3.22 (resulted in no action)
- Kingambit received a qualified score of 3.28 (resulted in no action)
- Gholdengo received a qualified score of 3.11 (resulted in no action)
- Gliscor received a qualified score of 3.39 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Nov1 - 2023 Part 3

- Manapahy received a qualified score of 3.19 (resulted in no action)
- Ogerpon-Wellspring received a qualified score of 3.18 (resulted in no action)
- Kingambit received a qualified score of 3.62 (resulted in no action)
- Gholdengo received a qualified score of 3.72 (resulted in no action)
- Gliscor received a qualified score of 3.99 (resulted in suspect test @ 11th Nov)

Survey results Nov23 - 2023

- Sneasler received a qualified score of 4.39 (resulted in quickban action @ 18th Nov)
- Gholdengo received a qualified score of 3.85 (resulted in no action)
- Kingambit received a qualified score of 3.29 (resulted in no action)
- Manaphy received a qualified score of 3.26 (resulted in no action)
- Ogerpon-Wellspring received a qualified score of 3.10 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Dec12 - 2023

For this survey, lower scores favored staying uber and higher scores favored going into OU

- Annihilape received a qualified score of 2.29 (resulted in staying uber)
- Baxcalibur received a qualified score of 2.71 (resulted in staying uber)
- Ogerpon-Hearthflame received a qualified score of 2.14 (resulted in staying uber)
- Landorus received a qualified score of 2.28 (resulted in staying uber)
- Palafin received a qualified score of 2.28 (resulted in staying uber)
- Sneasler received a qualified score of 2.62 (resulted in staying uber)
- Ursaluna-B received a qualified score of 1.87 (resulted in staying uber)
- Urshifu-S received a qualified score of 2.14 (resulted in staying uber)
- Urshifu-R received a qualified score of 2.58 (resulted in staying uber)
- Zamazenta-Crowned received a qualified score of 2.66 (resulted in staying uber)
- Gliscor received a qualified score of 3.15 (resulted in going to OU)
- Roaring Moon received a qualified score of 3.19 (resulted in going to OU)
- Volcarona received a qualified score of 3.66 (resulted in going to OU)
- Darkrai received a qualified score of 3.37 (resulted in going to OU)

Survey results Jan2 - 2024

No action taken with the highest suspected mon being roaring moon with 3.24

I also will need a source on "surveys can be easily manipulated." Now that surveys are going to be forum based and tied to smogon accounts, I think they're actually more secure than when they were just google forms, and our dear leader Finch has done a lot of work and tossed out lots of phony votes in the past.
Bracing myself for the angry response

Screenshot 2024-01-20 112320.png


Below is from Finch from the first survey:
Screenshot 2024-01-20 112548.png



I don't think i've used this forum based survey you're mentioning but I'll reserve by judgement on it until I try it out. There are ways I could think of to manipulate survey responses but I will refrain from saying those publicly for obvious reasons. If you want to discuss those privately, feel free to dm me.

2) Maybe banning prominent abusers of Sleep would've solved the problem, maybe not. We don't want to find out, the correct action is banning Sleep moves (you are here) --> 8 years later everybody is happy :D
I am open to being swayed that sleep, in its current state, has reached a critical threshold for uncompetitiveness - I would disagree with you because I think the issue is with the top 3 abusers (in particular Darkrai) and not the moves themselves but I am open to being persuaded.

To pivot onto something we both agree on (I think), we both in our personal opinion find tera to be uncompetitive and I think we can also agree this exacerbates the problem with sleep. Why are we focusing our attention on sleep and not tera when we have already banned multiple mons for their tera capabilities? Many users inside and outside of this thread have highlighted how the intense scrutiny on sleep has seemingly come out from thin air (or from Darkrai being released). If we as a community are collectively unsure of sleep and tera as healthy mechanics, why are we pursuing sleep first when there is more precedent for tera being more unhealthy than sleep by looking at the list of banned mons? Weren't we also promised a re-evaluation of the tera mechanic? Wouldn't it make more sense to tackle the matter that has historically caused more problematic issues first?

This is what I meant when I mentioned that some decisions by the council could be seen as autocratic though I appreciate it's a difficult position to be in.
 
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I'm back to work so not as active as I was on winter break but I've been keeping up with the thread best I can and I just want to say how TRASH and POINTLESS so many posts are. All of the same people that have the nerve to get UPSET at the 'thread being derailed' by the thought of unbanning Urshifu-R are here every other post with one liners trying to make this thread their comedy club.

The sleep discussion is 90% trash as all points to be made have been made and there's a stupid amount of people that don't understand and it keeps circling back and forth. Start suspect.

So yeah I haven't been playing much and I'm still using the same team from a week ago or whatever. The new mon kind of sucks I need to replace it. Even with grassy terrain support, gliscor and archaludon its coverage is just too poor and it's too weak. I tried Nasty Plot but switched to Parting Shot because its coverage is just too bad most games to make use of it. Parting Shot at least lets it get out.

Still running Max SpDef Unaware Calm Clefable as a go to for longraiku, serperior and most special attackers and it is how I win most games- saving it for when gambit or other strong physicals are gone. Hex Ghouldengo along with Toxic from Gliscor and M-Chain from the new mon can lead to victory too and that was kinda what I was going for- poisoning everything, setting up hazards to clear the way for a hex victory. But the new pokemon just sucks too much for me so going to give up that strategy and will try paralysis team
 
To pivot onto something we both agree on (I think), we both in our personal opinion find tera to be uncompetitive and I think we can also agree this exacerbates the problem with sleep. Why are we focusing our attention on sleep and not tera when we have already banned multiple mons for their tera capabilities? Many users inside and outside of this thread have highlighted how the intense scrutiny on sleep has seemingly come out from thin air (or from Darkrai being released). If we as a community are collectively unsure of sleep and tera as healthy mechanics, why are we pursuing sleep first when there is more precedent for tera being more unhealthy than sleep by looking at the list of banned mons? Weren't we also promised a re-evaluation of the tera mechanic? Wouldn't it make more sense to tackle the matter that has historically caused more problematic issues first?
Rant incoming:
Because every time a mon is on the chopping block, people will deny tera having any involvement, even though half the time checks and counters depend on the tera. And they're of the mind it's something that can be balanced, even though we've seen cases of mons being problematic from gaining the new typing, more powerful coverage from it and tera blast or avoiding kos.

It's in the same vein of sleep where the objective correct play for one player is no longer correct and you can be punished extremely heavily. And if you raise complaints against tera, the arguments boil down to "you should've played better and predicted it would happen, even if there's no tell and no guarantee they'll use it". I play properly to a rillaboom sweep vs rain but I lose to pellipper because it's tera steel and I no longer have answers to it. I run up against Garganacl but I can't kill it after it tosses rock and gains ghost, one of the options it has. Mons will have multiple viable types, but it's always placed as your fault for not calling it.

For example:
252 Atk Iron Boulder Mighty Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 195-229 (55.5 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Iron Boulder Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 328-386 (93.4 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Iron Boulder Mighty Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 390-458 (111.1 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Iron Boulder Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 82-96 (23.3 - 27.3%) -- 65.4% chance to 4HKO

As shown, this situatuion,can play out massively differently depending on a lot of factors. Like I get the idea of skill expression but how does that work when I've played to my wincon properly but I've lost because they held tera till the end and it just happens to be the one that beats what I saved. I could go on more but I'm going out with friends and I want to put my focus on that.

Tldr: People are adamant about avoiding acknowledging that it's an issue, to the point of outright denial, even though there's been issues from multiple aspects of it and multiple users who just happen to find a way of benefiting off it.
 
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I have taken the time to note down the results and actions taking from each survey below more so as a reference than anything else and is not meant to draw ire to the decisions of the council. While the vast majority of instances have been community driven, i've highlighted some in red to back up my point of some decisions being discretionary:

Survey results Dec10 - 2022

- Annihilape received a qualified score of 3.5 (resulted in quickban action @ 8th Jan)
- Chi-Yu received a qualified score of 3.5 (resulted in quickban action @ 8th Jan)
- Cyclizar received a qualified score of 3.3 (resulted in quickban action @ 8th Jan)
- Espathra received a qualified score of 3.0 (resulted in no action)
- Gholdengo received a qualified score of 3.0 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Jan28 - 2023

- Chien-Pao received a qualified score of 4.105 (resulted in suspect test @ 8th Feb)
- Garganacl received a qualified score of 3.059 (resulted in no action)
- Espathra received a qualified score of 2.980 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Feb16 - 2023

- Espathra received a qualified score of 4.25 (resulted in quickban action @ 11th Feb)
- Garganacl received a qualified score of 3.44 (resulted in no action)
- Gholdengo received a qualified score of 2.09 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Feb26 - 2023

- Garganacl received a qualified score of 3.29 (resulted in no action)
- Volcarona received a qualified score of 2.97 (resulted in no action)
- Shed Tail received a qualified score of 3.10 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Apr22 - 2023

- Shed Tail received a qualified score of 4.30 (resulted in quickban action @ 15th May)
- Volcarona received a qualified score of 3.05 (resulted in no action)
- Kingambit received a qualified score of 2.92 (resulted in no action)
- Garganacl received a qualified score of 2.41 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Jun22 - 2023

- Chien-Pao received a qualified score of 4.63 (resulted in quickban action @ 7th Jun after no action decided 4th Jun)
- Zamazenta-Crowned received a qualified score of 4.4 (resulted in quickban action @ 7th Jun after no action decided 4th Jun)

- Urshifu-R received a qualified score of 3 (resulted in quickban action @ 11th Jun after no action decided @ 4th Jun)
- Volcarona received a qualified score of NULL (resulted in quickban action @ 11th Jun after no action decided @ 4th Jun)

- Zamazenta-Hero received a qualified score of ~3.7 (resulted in suspect test @ 11th Jun)
- Sneasler received a qualified score of 3.15 (resulted in no action)
- Ursaluna received a qualified score of 2.68 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Jul22 - 2023

- Volcarona received a qualified score of 2.89 (No action taken to reinstate)
- Kingambit received a qualified score of 3.46 (resulted in suspect test @ 26th Jul)
- Garganacl received a qualified score of 2.98 (resulted in no action)
- Iron Valiant received a qualified score of 2.42 (resulted in no action)
- Sneasler received a qualified score of 3.05 (resulted in no action)
- Baxcalbur received a qualified score of 1.86 (resulted in no action)
- Samurott-Hisui received a qualified score of 1.77 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Sep12 - 2023

- Volcarona received a qualified score of 3.51 (higher score indicating more desire to drop) (Vote to be held
to reinstate but I can't find it so don't know if happened or not or what the results were)


- Urshifu-R received a qualified score of 2.49 (higher score indicating more desire to drop) (no action taken)

Survey results Sep20 - 2023

- Baxcalibur received a qualified score of 4.64 (resulted in quickban action @ 17th Sep)
- Manapahy received a qualified score of 3.34 (resulted in no action)
- Ogerpon-Hearthflame received a qualified score of 3.69 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Nov1 - 2023 Part 1

- Ogerpon-Hearthflame received a qualified score of 4.02 (resulted in quickban action @ 23rd Sep)
- Gliscor received a qualified score of 2.21 (resulted in no action)
- UrsalunaB received a qualified score of 2.79 (resulted in suspect test @ 7th Oct)
- Manapahy received a qualified score of 3.3 (resulted in no action) (marked red)

While I agree with the outcome, suspecting UrsalunaB instead of Manapahy was not data driven based on the survey results.


Survey results Nov1 - 2023 Part 2

- Roaring Moon received a qualified score of 3.68 (resulted in suspect test @ 28th Oct)
- Manapahy received a qualified score of 3.37 (resulted in no action)
- Ogerpon-Wellspring received a qualified score of 3.22 (resulted in no action)
- Kingambit received a qualified score of 3.28 (resulted in no action)
- Gholdengo received a qualified score of 3.11 (resulted in no action)
- Gliscor received a qualified score of 3.39 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Nov1 - 2023 Part 3

- Manapahy received a qualified score of 3.19 (resulted in no action)
- Ogerpon-Wellspring received a qualified score of 3.18 (resulted in no action)
- Kingambit received a qualified score of 3.62 (resulted in no action)
- Gholdengo received a qualified score of 3.72 (resulted in no action)
- Gliscor received a qualified score of 3.99 (resulted in suspect test @ 11th Nov)

Survey results Nov23 - 2023

- Sneasler received a qualified score of 4.39 (resulted in quickban action @ 18th Nov)
- Gholdengo received a qualified score of 3.85 (resulted in no action)
- Kingambit received a qualified score of 3.29 (resulted in no action)
- Manaphy received a qualified score of 3.26 (resulted in no action)
- Ogerpon-Wellspring received a qualified score of 3.10 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Dec12 - 2023

For this survey, lower scores favored staying uber and higher scores favored going into OU

- Annihilape received a qualified score of 2.29 (resulted in staying uber)
- Baxcalibur received a qualified score of 2.71 (resulted in staying uber)
- Ogerpon-Hearthflame received a qualified score of 2.14 (resulted in staying uber)
- Landorus received a qualified score of 2.28 (resulted in staying uber)
- Palafin received a qualified score of 2.28 (resulted in staying uber)
- Sneasler received a qualified score of 2.62 (resulted in staying uber)
- Ursaluna-B received a qualified score of 1.87 (resulted in staying uber)
- Urshifu-S received a qualified score of 2.14 (resulted in staying uber)
- Urshifu-R received a qualified score of 2.58 (resulted in staying uber)
- Zamazenta-Crowned received a qualified score of 2.66 (resulted in staying uber)
- Gliscor received a qualified score of 3.15 (resulted in going to OU)
- Roaring Moon received a qualified score of 3.19 (resulted in going to OU)
- Volcarona received a qualified score of 3.66 (resulted in going to OU)
- Darkrai received a qualified score of 3.37 (resulted in going to OU)

Survey results Jan2 - 2024

No action taken with the highest suspected mon being roaring moon with 3.24



Bracing myself for the angry response

View attachment 594751

Below is from Finch from the first survey:
View attachment 594752


I don't think i've used this forum based survey you're mentioning but I'll reserve by judgement on it until I try it out. There are ways I could think of to manipulate survey responses but I will refrain from saying those publicly for obvious reasons. If you want to discuss those privately, feel free to dm me.



I am open to being swayed that sleep, in its current state, has reached a critical threshold for uncompetitiveness - I would disagree with you because I think the issue is with the top 3 abusers (in particular Darkrai) and not the moves themselves but I am open to being persuaded.

To pivot onto something we both agree on (I think), we both in our personal opinion find tera to be uncompetitive and I think we can also agree this exacerbates the problem with sleep. Why are we focusing our attention on sleep and not tera when we have already banned multiple mons for their tera capabilities? Many users inside and outside of this thread have highlighted how the intense scrutiny on sleep has seemingly come out from thin air (or from Darkrai being released). If we as a community are collectively unsure of sleep and tera as healthy mechanics, why are we pursuing sleep first when there is more precedent for tera being more unhealthy than sleep by looking at the list of banned mons? Weren't we also promised a re-evaluation of the tera mechanic? Wouldn't it make more sense to tackle the matter that has historically caused more problematic issues first?

This is what I meant when I mentioned that some decisions by the council could be seen as autocratic though I appreciate it's a difficult position to be in.
I don't agree with you on Sleep, but I agree that surveys feel fairly inconsistent.

I remember reading the council's report on a survey and it was like "3.2- that's a fairly average" - NO!

3.2 is quite a bit above a 2.5, the actual average, and even then the preferable number is 1.0!


A Pokemon even being above a 2/5 shows that there is a healthy appetite for a ban of that Pokemon. If a Pokemon is not deemed to be broken by many people, the 1/5 will consistently bring it pretty low. Getting anything above a 3 shows that there is a shit ton of want in the community for it to have action against it.

Gholdengo continues to be close to the forefront of tiering controversey. It received a lot of 5s, but also a lot of 1-2s throughout the qualified demographic. It still is not the most supported Pokemon and is well below the threshold for a normal suspect or where it was in the previous metagame even, but will absolutely be something we continue to monitor moving forward. For now, a suspect does not seem immediately likely, but things can change and future surveys will dictate a lot of the narrative here. A number of people on the tiering council have stated that they do not believe Gholdengo will magically fix the hazard removal problem, which many others have claimed when giving it high scores, but that is another conversation for another topic altogether.
The fact that a 3/5 (a number showing a really high amount of support among the players) is "well below the threshold for a normal suspect" is wild to me. Any Pokemon above a 3/5 is enough for a suspect, and we've quickbanned Pokemon around those numbers. It isn't enough for a quickban, I agree, but it is the job of suspect tests to tussle with the more mixed responsed Pokemon.

There being so many 3/5 Pokemon is not that they are balanced and don't deserve a suspect test, it's that the meta has a lot of suspect test worthy Pokemon.
 
I don't agree with you on Sleep, but I agree that surveys feel fairly inconsistent.

I remember reading the council's report on a survey and it was like "3.2- that's a fairly average" - NO!

3.2 is quite a bit above a 2.5, the actual average, and even then the preferable number is 1.0!


A Pokemon even being above a 2/5 shows that there is a healthy appetite for a ban of that Pokemon. If a Pokemon is not deemed to be broken by many people, the 1/5 will consistently bring it pretty low. Getting anything above a 3 shows that there is a shit ton of want in the community for it to have action against it.



The fact that a 3/5 (a number showing a really high amount of support among the players) is "well below the threshold for a normal suspect" is wild to me. Any Pokemon above a 3/5 is enough for a suspect, and we've quickbanned Pokemon around those numbers. It isn't enough for a quickban, I agree, but it is the job of suspect tests to tussle with the more mixed responsed Pokemon.

There being so many 3/5 Pokemon is not that they are balanced and don't deserve a suspect test, it's that the meta has a lot of suspect test worthy Pokemon.
The thing is, the way They interpret the survey and the way they use averages instead of number of individual responses, you kind of have to vote 5 if you want anything done about something. If responses on a Pokémon (say Archaludon) are generally between 1 and 3, even if say 60% of players say 3, which theoretically means "this Pokémon might be a problem and should at least be looked into," the takeaway will be "Archaludon got an average of 2.whatever and while we will do nothing right now, it will be monitored going forward." So even if voters feel a Pokémon may merit a 3 or even 4, the only chance at any action is to inflate your vote and vote 5. This is how let's just give an example Gholdengo has stayed completely untouched throughout the entire gen, through the flawed way this data is interpreted.
 
Soooo…rather than endlessly deliberating all this sleep stuff, why not just quick ban darkai for a week and then see if sleep is still a “problem”???

There’s been more time spent discussing than it would actually take to reach an informed decision point.

and if that’s not possible, then I say this is a broken bureaucracy that is prioritizing pomp and ceremony over solutions
There is already a survey set to go up to ask people's opinion on sleep, after which the council will make a decision. Really we're just discussing stuff to kill time because, as has been said before, its clear no public consensus is being reached
 
Out of curiosity, which Tera is best for serperior? Thank you.
Fire. Fire and Grass cover each other extremely well, only needing to worry about Dragons, Fires, and especially Heatran. Dragon and most Fires being at least neutral to Dragon Pulse or being chipped by Leech Seed helps too.
 
You can't vote 0 on the survey, so the actual average is the midway point between 1 and 5 -- 3.0.
I think what OP means is that if something is on the survey and it isn't broken, it gets voted a 1. In a perfect world, the mons that are average in performance should be between a 1 and a 2 (between because you know someone is gonna vote higher than a 1 realistically). The 2.5 was probably just what each mon on the survey on average got or something.
 
I think what OP means is that if something is on the survey and it isn't broken, it gets voted a 1. In a perfect world, the mons that are average in performance should be between a 1 and a 2 (between because you know someone is gonna vote higher than a 1 realistically). The 2.5 was probably just what each mon on the survey on average got or something.
This is what I meant.
 

Finchinator

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How I plan to respond to the tiering survey:

Sleep will be a 5/5 from me -- I hope we can remove it ASAP. I believe it is uncompetitive in the current metagame. In addition, sleep clause is not actually enforcable in-game, making it easy to remove in exchange for sleep move clause. I provided my detailed thoughts on this matter here, which also answers some frequent questions on the topic.

I do not believe we need to act on Tera immediately and I think we would actually being doing a disservice to the discussion to have an immeduate suspect, but I also do not see myself supporting an outright ban. I could see myself answering Yes to the first question eventually to discuss Tera Blast, but both get a no for me for now. I do think it is important these topics belong on the survey and should continue to be included to give people a chance to voice their opinions though.

:Kyurem: gets a 5/5 from me. I view it to be very restrictive to teambuilding, forcing the same type of GKing/Blissey/Volcarona structures on bulky teams and forcing a certain degree of proactivity on offense. It is the single most broken Pokemon to me right now and I do not think it adds much to the tier on the flip side. I strongly support action on it right now.

:Gouging Fire: and :Roaring Moon: get a 3/5 from me, but you can convince me to go to 4/5 before 2/5. Gouging Fire is super bulky and DD + Morning Sun sets with the right Tera frequently pick-off 2-3 kills. Toxic vulnerability can be tough into balance, but it is still super efficient, has ways to circumvent most counterplay, and is able to get multiple free turns frequently. Roaring Moon is sort of the more aggressive, but fragile, of the two. Priority like Ice Shard and post-Tera Sucker Punch can do numbers here at least, but it is very challenging for balance if it is running Taunt and I find that it definitely limits what structures can work.

Gholdengo and Kingambit I can see getting a 2 or even a 3, but neither are close to priorities for me. Kingambit's Tera spectrum expanding amuses me, but it is not more broken than it previously was I feel. Gholdengo is actually at a bit of a low point, but still noteworthy. Finally, Deoxys-Speed is not a problem to me at all. I actually think Raging Bolt is way closer to broken than most of these Pokemon and hope to include it in the future.
 
How I plan to respond to the tiering survey:

Sleep will be a 5/5 from me -- I hope we can remove it ASAP. I believe it is uncompetitive in the current metagame. In addition, sleep clause is not actually enforcable in-game, making it easy to remove in exchange for sleep move clause. I provided my detailed thoughts on this matter here, which also answers some frequent questions on the topic.

I do not believe we need to act on Tera immediately and I think we would actually being doing a disservice to the discussion to have an immeduate suspect, but I also do not see myself supporting an outright ban. I could see myself answering Yes to the first question eventually to discuss Tera Blast, but both get a no for me for now. I do think it is important these topics belong on the survey and should continue to be included to give people a chance to voice their opinions though.

:Kyurem: gets a 5/5 from me. I view it to be very restrictive to teambuilding, forcing the same type of GKing/Blissey/Volcarona structures on bulky teams and forcing a certain degree of proactivity on offense. It is the single most broken Pokemon to me right now and I do not think it adds much to the tier on the flip side. I strongly support action on it right now.

:Gouging Fire: and :Roaring Moon: get a 3/5 from me, but you can convince me to go to 4/5 before 2/5. Gouging Fire is super bulky and DD + Morning Sun sets with the right Tera frequently pick-off 2-3 kills. Toxic vulnerability can be tough into balance, but it is still super efficient, has ways to circumvent most counterplay, and is able to get multiple free turns frequently. Roaring Moon is sort of the more aggressive, but fragile, of the two. Priority like Ice Shard and post-Tera Sucker Punch can do numbers here at least, but it is very challenging for balance if it is running Taunt and I find that it definitely limits what structures can work.

Gholdengo and Kingambit I can see getting a 2 or even a 3, but neither are close to priorities for me. Kingambit's Tera spectrum expanding amuses me, but it is not more broken than it previously was I feel. Gholdengo is actually at a bit of a low point, but still noteworthy. Finally, Deoxys-Speed is not a problem to me at all. I actually think Raging Bolt is way closer to broken than most of these Pokemon and hope to include it in the future.
Thanks for sharing your insight! I actually agree on a lot of things, but I'd like to know: where do you plan on voting Archaludon? It's on the survey but absent from your responses.
 

Finchinator

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is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
where do you plan on voting Archaludon? It's on the survey but absent from your responses.
Sorry, I gave it a 2 (closer to 3 than 1) due to how reliant it is on outside support to be close to broken -- only fitting onto Rain teams with its best set, which can face interference from other weather, specifically tailored counterplay, and so on. Is it broken? Maybe, but I do not think it is priority #1 quite yet.
 

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