Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

Finchinator

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I understand the problem here. But I still had the issue of why bother choosing quickban at all. This is a major change to the metagame like banning dynamax /tera does.
There is no clause in the current tiering policy dictating anything should be decided on scale/scope -- i.e: something "major" or "minor" relative to other things does not dictate different handling when it falls under the scope of uncompetitive.
Also, if there is any room of increasing the requirement of survey support of voting a quickban?
There is no requirement -- it is dependent on council opinion, metagame timing/circumstance, and so on. Surveys in particular are not binding and depend on a lot of factors
 
I have a question for OU as I don’t play too much. Hows the current state of the metagame without sleep? Will anything change in particular?
 
I have a question for OU as I don’t play too much. Hows the current state of the metagame without sleep? Will anything change in particular?
No, nothing will change because sleep wasn't that popular to start with. iirc Iron Valiant doesn't even use Hypnosis in its top 10 moves lol
 
I have a question for OU as I don’t play too much. Hows the current state of the metagame without sleep? Will anything change in particular?
Not a whole lot. Darkrai and valiant's best sets didn't use hypnosis, though not having to deal with those sets is definetely a positive. Amoonguss will fall a bit, as it will have to use either toxic or stun spore if it want's to use status. Yawn mons are definetely the most affected, which in OU are clodsire, dondozo, skeledirge, slowking galar and torkoal, as they are more passive by not forcing switches as often.
Overall, not a lot will change though some mons will have to fill up a moveslot with a different progress making move.
 
If sleep is such a problem why no just ban Darkrai again? The only other good pokemon with a sleep move in OU is Iron Valiant who doesn't have the defense to afford missing and you have options to counter sleep this time around with Gholdengo, electric terrain, the entire grass type against powder moves.
This is such a weird thing to ban
 

veti

Supreme Overlord
is a Pre-Contributor
If sleep is such a problem why no just ban Darkrai again? The only other good pokemon with a sleep move in OU is Iron Valiant who doesn't have the defense to afford missing and you have options to counter sleep this time around with Gholdengo, electric terrain, the entire grass type against powder moves.
This is such a weird thing to ban
From Finchinator:

As for banning Pokemon like Darkrai and Iron Valiant, this was the second most desirable outcome to me and I resonate with people taking this stance. The main thing it boils down to is that it would take banning multiple Pokemon on top of a clause that is a major outlier just to preserve a handful of sleep moves that would have an even smaller handful of users.
 
Just a reminder that the only Electric Terrain setter we currently have is fucking Pincurchin.

Do you want to put Pincurchin on your team?
Trust me, I've tried an electric terrain team, and pinchurchin sucks ass. The only reason why I played with the team for more than one game was because I found it a neat idea, it wasn't even good.
I would rather use misty terrain over electric terrain, despite the only move benefitting misty terrain being misty explosion, which ko's the mon (I know that it gives dragon resistance and status immunity, but that ain't enough of a reason), that's how ass pinchurchin is.
 
If sleep is such a problem why no just ban Darkrai again? The only other good pokemon with a sleep move in OU is Iron Valiant who doesn't have the defense to afford missing and you have options to counter sleep this time around with Gholdengo, electric terrain, the entire grass type against powder moves.
This is such a weird thing to ban
Why not fucking read one of the several posts where Finch explains why they didn't just ban Darkrai? Like this one for example.
 
No need to be so aggressive I have read it but just seems weird to outright ban all sleep because the biggest abuser of it was unbanned
That's because the best abuser was probably HypnoHex Iron Valiant, not Darkrai. While Darkrai is far more famous as a sleep user, Valiant was able to run a legitimately powerful set that Hypnosis augmented, rather than merely being used as a way to cheese free setup turns.

Given the desire for action, there's no way the council could have delivered a guarantee without banning both of them, and..

You know what. Definitely go read Finch's post again. Specifically, the part where Valiant is namedropped:

As for banning Pokemon like Darkrai and Iron Valiant, this was the second most desirable outcome to me and I resonate with people taking this stance. The main thing it boils down to is that it would take banning multiple Pokemon on top of a clause that is a major outlier just to preserve a handful of sleep moves that would have an even smaller handful of users. Given that we never tier with collateral in mind, preserving these moves vs. preserving the other users is never a debate we will engage in -- any debate between the two camps is entirely arbitrary. This makes the primary differentiator the fact that the current Sleep Clause mod is ineffective and needs to be reformed in some capacity.
 
i think the criticisms are fair, in the contexts of smogons attempt to standardise and streamline things. This decision seems made in a different way to others.

The first way of looking at it:

when you assess the ban as opposed to the alternative: keeping sleep clause but getting rid of valiant/darkrai. This is where this ban looks ridiculous, and inconsistent. It’s so clear that there are a small minority of abusers making it uncompetitive. And the decision contradicts statements made about how controversial aspects of the metagame are treated. This isn’t the first contradiction, but unlike kings rock, the justification isn’t as valid, as it’s damaging yawn, spore, sleep powder users. Banning kings rock had negligible side effects. Banning sleep, where sleep clause is the alternative.. a lot less fair

the second way of looking at it:

however when you assess the ban opposed to a whole structural issue, I.e. should sleep clause have been there in the first place, ie unrestricted sleep in general being too OP, then that’s fair, but it’s also untested (empirically in gen 9, at least). In particular the most potent sleep moves: spore and sleep powder, have more counterplay due to their users not being so potent against the checks. Although it’s admittedly a ridiculous assumption to say that unrestricted sleep is worth testing empirically, at the very least a big change like this should be treated with a little more care. Maybe spore and powder users were not as competitive as hypnosis dice rollers?? In VGC we see counterplay like safety goggles and Tera grass. For all we know, in OU we may have seen poison garganacl, Mandibuzz and safety goggles pivots..!

Reality:

we all don’t give a f and are gonna play OU anyway. But please respond to this feedback and show us how things are getting even clearer and better. I guess you need this feedback because it makes smogon gaming more attractive over time, rather than less attractive.
 
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That's because the best abuser was probably HypnoHex Iron Valiant, not Darkrai. While Darkrai is far more famous as a sleep user, Valiant was able to run a legitimately powerful set that Hypnosis augmented, rather than merely being used as a way to cheese free setup turns.

Given the desire for action, there's no way the council could have delivered a guarantee without banning both of them, and..

You know what. Definitely go read Finch's post again. Specifically, the part where Valiant is namedropped:
I mean I think the main flaw in this argument is that Valiant is a problem without sleep, the mon has dodged a suspect all gen. So when you put it like that you have 1 mon that should've been suspected and banned months ago as one of the main reasons to ban something, and the other is a pokemon that we unbanned from Ubers, and people think that's stupid that a status was banned because of two pokemon.

This is of course, if you even think Hypno Ival was worth the lowered consistency. I really wish people would stop acting like everyone who disagrees with the sleep ban is a mouth breathing troglodyte.
 

Finchinator

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we all don’t give a f and are gonna play OU anyway. But please respond to this feedback and show us how things are getting even clearer and better
I responded to your first point here and idk what more you want from me bud i have 34 posts since we banned sleep last night answering everything possible and grouped it all into an all-encompassing post, too

i hear your feedback loud and clear -- i have responded to the core prompting questions in it even, but that does not mean your point is exactly correct or your understanding of consistency is true. implying we have to provide further feedback or get "cleaner and better" after this effort just rubs me the wrong way
 
I responded to your first point here and idk what more you want from me bud i have 34 posts since we banned sleep last night answering everything possible and grouped it all into an all-encompassing post, too

i hear your feedback loud and clear -- i have responded to the core prompting questions in it even, but that does not mean your point is exactly correct or your understanding of consistency is true. implying we have to provide further feedback or get "cleaner and better" after this effort just rubs me the wrong way
Thank you, it’s noted. Definitely not complaining about a lack of transparency.

Not arguing I’m right either, it’s just a point of view which you might not be comfortable with, although it’s not intended to be provocative.

it’s nice to see more about how you collectively make decisions. Appreciate your efforts you’re doing great and lots of communication. It just sometimes comes off as a bit “we made this decision, accept it” every now and again, and that’s why we ask for more…!
 
This is of course, if you even think Hypno Ival was worth the lowered consistency. I really wish people would stop acting like everyone who disagrees with the sleep ban is a mouth breathing troglodyte.
The reason why people have acted that way is because people do not read the reasons why sleep was banned. It is a multi-faceted issue that is not as simple as "Darkrai is busted with hypnosis", finch has made abundantly clear why and has cited his reasoning multiple times. When people say they've read it and ask simple questions that have been explained in finch's reasoning, you are going to get annoyed. Most likely, all questions have been answered already, plus, valiant, while powerful, is not egregious anymore, as it does have counterplay. It ain't even the fastest mon in the tier, so it can't outspeed everything.
 

Finchinator

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It just sometimes comes off as a bit “we made this decision, accept it” every now and again, and that’s why we ask for more…!
The thing is that we made the decision based off a lot of justification and all I can do is provide it as accurately as possible, which I tried to do in my second post in the ban thread tonight. I am not going to reverse a decision just because some of the public disagrees (when data shows a majority favors and people who oppose something are obviously more inclined to speak out)

i love your passion and respect your stance, but there is always agreeing to disagree
 
when you assess the ban as opposed to the alternative: keeping sleep clause but getting rid of valiant/darkrai. This is where this ban looks ridiculous, and inconsistent. It’s so clear that there are a small minority of abusers making it uncompetitive. And the decision contradicts statements made about how controversial aspects of the metagame are treated. This isn’t the first contradiction, but unlike kings rock, the justification isn’t as valid, as it’s damaging yawn, spore, sleep powder users. Banning kings rock had negligible side effects. Banning sleep, where sleep clause is the alternative.. a lot less fair
Because they weren’t the only two problematic abusers. The council as a whole has repeatedly cited no less than four problematic OU abusers: HynoRai, HypnoHexVal, Sleep Powder Chlorophyll Lilligant-H, and Red Card Amoonguss. All of them have already been discussed multiple times at length by multiple people. When you factor in that we had four concurrent abusers with an already nerfed mechanic, this is less comparable to a King’s Rock ban and more comparable to the Baton Pass ban, where more and more problematic scenarios continued to crop up after Baton Pass had already been limited.

the second way of looking at it:

however when you assess the ban opposed to a whole structural issue, I.e. should sleep clause have been there in the first place, ie unrestricted sleep in general being too OP, then that’s fair, but it’s also untested (empirically in gen 9, at least).
You’re missing another reason we got rid of sleep clause: it’s a modification of gameplay mechanics and therefore incompatible with modern Smogon tiering. This was a huge part of the argument for it to be removed to begin with, and has been a matter of contention for a long time. Sleep Clause should not be assumed to be the baseline; unrestricted sleep is the baseline.
 
With the Sleep ban this tier is going towards being BW OU 2: Paldean Bungaloo...
We only need Complex ban like "X mon cannot use Booster Energy" or "Kingambit can't run Supreme Overlord" or " Can't use tera and a setup move in the same set" to reach peak Gen V OU tiering bs..
 

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