Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

Agreed that sleep is problematic in gen 9, though it is probably not broken in terms of gen 8 / gen 7 due to tapu koko/fini.
However it is arguable that it is still metagame dependent, like in gen 1.
And what's fun is that you can just as easily argue the opposite from the same starting point! You needed not only a specific clause to nerf the moves, but also multiple high tier mons that render your team immune to sleep, just for the mechanic to be balanced.

Those two fought valiantly, but in retrospect? It's honestly a miracle that sleep survived this long.
 
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I'm in the exact same situation lmaooo

Laddered the hell out of DLC 1 and mostly used Hypnosis Valiant more than anything, and it was without question cheesy and pretty dumb for the most part so I don't mind it going at all.

Haven't played DLC 2 at all but it's not surprising Kyurem would be looked at from experience in SS OU, especially now with Tera. Interested to use it before it potentially goes to form a solid opinion on it.
Kyurem lost Roost, so it's not exactly doing the same things it did in gen 8 (sub roost pp stall, right?)
 
This is true, getting haha reactions on posts acknowledging the real policy implication of setting differing standards between generations on what is uncompetitive (which is just a fact lol) isn't meaningful, it's just randoms handing out free reaction points for all my cool, novel and valid points!
I don't disagree that tiering policy could probably do with a bit of clarification around game mods and exactly how we quantify uncompetitive mechanics, that would probably avoid the bulk of the arguing in cases like this, but I also don't disagree with Finch that the decision to quickban Sleep was perfectly in line with existing tiering policies, and also that it was the best decision as a suspect test would have almost certainly just been a formality anyways, so saving the two weeks to move onto more pressing issues is perfectly fine.

My issue is more with people engaging with the argument in blatantly and unambiguously bad faith and then acting like the victim when they get laughed off for it, but even that's whatever. What's done is done and personally I'm done shitting up this thread over personal beefs and bad takes.
 

Mimikyu Stardust

Loli Kami Requiem~☆
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UPL Champion
barraskewda managed to climb to A- in viability list, do you think that it may eventually climb to OU?
Absolutely! Rain is one of the most dominant style right now with how broken Archaludon is, Rain had the 7th highest usage in SPL which for a usually more niche offense style is incredible.

why is hawlucha so high?
is its ability to use defog on gholdengo THIS good?
No, it no longer runs defog as trying to remove hazard in a skarmory-tinglu-samurott invested meta is futile, and pokemon like iron treads and great tusk are just better. Hawlucha now runs the old-school Grassy Seed unburden sets as offense teams are in the rise right now.

what niche does alolan muk have?
nothing really, its really bad right now, it used to be a good special wall and poison spreader but with Iron treads and gliscor rising in usage, it not being able to wall the best special attackers in the tier, it really is just not good. It can still counter glowking of course, but why use it when there are so many more better answers.

what niche does zarude have?
Swords dance + Encore and it being able to counter the combo of Samurott/ting-lu + Gholdengo. Knock off and trailblaze are nice too
 
Kyurem lost Roost, so it's not exactly doing the same things it did in gen 8 (sub roost pp stall, right?)
It’s right that Kyurem lost ONE moveset, but it can still do that with Leftover Sub Freeze fish. Kyurem however gained a new and just as lethal set though. Loaded Dice Icicle Spear Scale Shot.
 
wait, hang on. you're saying that you accept the tiering policy arguments… but you disagree with the decision to follow tiering policy?
Not what I said, I just believe it was hard to argue because there are only two arguments against it. First, is basically not an argument since it's the "who cares if it's not cart accurate" argument. Which, yes, I have said before, but I do recognize that it really means nothing when trying to persuade someone. Second, restructuring Sleep Clause to be cart accurate which I still think is a good middle ground. This argument I think could be good if presented correctly, and the opposing side is open minded about it. Problem, it's way easier to just wipe the slate clean then to actually restructure Sleep Clause. Edge cases like Encore or Relic Song are good enough arguments to shut down at least the first iteration presented in the Policy Review Thread, but it could've and can be worked on.

Like for Encore and Trick, honestly, just punish the person trying to Encore or Trick. Since it's outside of the Sleep users control why punish them? Punish the person trying to lock the person in for a free DQ by just letting the Sleep user put to Sleep multiple mons since it's their only option. Not the neatest solution to the problem, and in some ways is a feels bad since we're all used to how Sleep Clause currently works. It is a better proposition than just the Sleep User auto losing. For cases like Relic Song, Dire Claw, and Effect Spore just let them multi Sleep. Relic Song is tied to a mediocre Pokemon who is forced to become a new Pokemon every time it uses it, so not the most reliable spam. Dire Claw is tied to a banned Pokemon so for now who cares. Effect Spore is such a low chance it should just be allowed to multi sleep with the understanding that contact moves are a risk. Of course if a mon is put to sleep by one of these moves/abilities then of course you won't be allowed to use direct Sleep moves, including Yawn.

Not saying this should be what is done, but it at least addresses issues had with restructuring Sleep Clause and can be explored further. Let's be real though. The council or who ever does the Policy stuff doesn't want to do that, or at least they give the impression they don't. So, yeah, it was hard to argue against.
 
Unsure if this falls into RMT or not, or even simple question simple answers but what would you guys think is the best spike setter for a team with rillaboom on it?considering gliscor with high horsepower instead of EQ but not sure if it's worth it with the -5 in both accuracy and power, also unsure if meowscarada is any better considering the double grass types, although maybe if kyurem gets banned i'll consider
 
I haven't seen anyone respond to this, so even though it was a few pages back, I do want to bring it back up because, at the end of December, I asked Finch this during his Office Hours. The following is his response:



Hopefully this response can be brought back up if anyone else has a similar question, because I agree that it's an important one, and one that, in my mind at least, has an answer.
First off, Thank you Gondre for making me aware of this!

This is a good answer and makes me wonder why tiers rely so much on the actions of OU. Why are bans on OU mechanics default bans for them? That seems to be a question for those tiers.

The only comment I have is this. Its obvious to the entirety of Smogon now that changes that affect current OU affect all lower tiers and can even occasionally affect other gens.That is an extra layer of responsibility when discussing broad mechanic bans such as this. I do wish we got a suspect so we could at least get a complete and strong understanding of the community's opinion of the mechanic before taking the nuclear option that is affecting lower tiers and quite realistically may affect older gens. I would rather see as much/more data on the community's view of a given mechanic than the data we see of a particular suspect(like seeing suspect vote count/clearer wording/multiple options rather than 'is sleep a problem rn'), given that the scope of removing sleep is much larger than the scope of banning like roaring moon.
 
First off, Thank you Gondre for making me aware of this!

This is a good answer and makes me wonder why tiers rely so much on the actions of OU. Why are bans on OU mechanics default bans for them? That seems to be a question for those tiers.
Cohesion. There is probably a policy review thread on that, it's called transitivy of bans. It's not exclusive to OU though, whatever is banned on a tier, is banned on all tiers below, for example RU banned Light Clay this gen so it's also banned from NU and PU.
 
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CobsonYaoi

formerly Holesum420
This should've been the song posted on the Kyurem suspect thread in my opinion.

I have nothing of substance to say at the moment uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh............. Kyurem bad.
 
guys... can we please ban archaludon. This guy is comically op... Like I dont think theres been anyone this op since sneasler(except sneasler owned offense while arch owns balance). Insane snowballing ability just for existing means it has to be dealt with within like 2 turns of it coming out or it just rips through your whole team. Unfortunately all noob rain spammers on ladder peaking for once in their life and dont want their brainless elo machine banned... Only reason I can imagine the low qualified score(its lower than deo s like how is this even possible). This thing better be gone by the time I wake up tomorrow. Good night(except to archaludon)
 
guys... can we please ban archaludon. This guy is comically op... Like I dont think theres been anyone this op since sneasler(except sneasler owned offense while arch owns balance). Insane snowballing ability just for existing means it has to be dealt with within like 2 turns of it coming out or it just rips through your whole team. Unfortunately all noob rain spammers on ladder peaking for once in their life and dont want their brainless elo machine banned... Only reason I can imagine the low qualified score(its lower than deo s like how is this even possible). This thing better be gone by the time I wake up tomorrow. Good night(except to archaludon)
just use sandstorm prankster tornadus to cope into a ground type.

Arch is not broken, I don't get why overnight everybody thinks so. Sure, it is powerful, but it has horrendous special bulk, and if it wants to patch that up with assault vest, it has to give up either a boosting item or lefties, which is a big concession. It's speed tier while good, isn't great as it is crucially outsped by tusk and takes big damage from both of its stab moves. Barraskweda is much more problematic on rain teams as nothing can outspeed it, alleviating it's nonexistent bulk.
:comfey:
 
guys... can we please ban archaludon. This guy is comically op... Like I dont think theres been anyone this op since sneasler(except sneasler owned offense while arch owns balance). Insane snowballing ability just for existing means it has to be dealt with within like 2 turns of it coming out or it just rips through your whole team. Unfortunately all noob rain spammers on ladder peaking for once in their life and dont want their brainless elo machine banned... Only reason I can imagine the low qualified score(its lower than deo s like how is this even possible). This thing better be gone by the time I wake up tomorrow. Good night(except to archaludon)
Arch is not broken, I don't get why overnight everybody thinks so. Sure, it is powerful, but it has horrendous special bulk, and if it wants to patch that up with assault vest, it has to give up either a boosting item or lefties, which is a big concession. It's speed tier while good, isn't great as it is crucially outsped by tusk and takes big damage from both of its stab moves. Barraskweda is much more problematic on rain teams as nothing can outspeed it, alleviating it's nonexistent bulk.
 

j0nathan

formerly trainer_j0nathan
Archaludon isn't broken at all. Rain is just so common and Arch is good on rain.
Just use anyone with Earth Power or even Zamazenta.

God was I wrong
 
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I'm sorry for the sleep-related one-liner but I really want to know why so many people are mad about the removal of a literal game mod. How is this not a universally welcomed change?
I think MOST people can understand the removal of sleep clause. It's more that every direct sleep move has been banned and I'm certainly in the camp that a few of them deserved a suspect, like yawn, sing and dark void. I can respect people thinking hypnosis was too strong on valiant and darkrai, and without sleep clause blocking spore, amoongus would be problematic too... but the other sleep moves have such horrible accuracy and Yawn has drawbacks of its own, I think they're fair play. I don't like to see mechanics removed completely
 
I think MOST people can understand the removal of sleep clause. It's more that every direct sleep move has been banned and I'm certainly in the camp that a few of them deserved a suspect, like yawn, sing and dark void. I can respect people thinking hypnosis was too strong on valiant and darkrai, and without sleep clause blocking spore, amoongus would be problematic too... but the other sleep moves have such horrible accuracy and Yawn has drawbacks of its own, I think they're fair play. I don't like to see mechanics removed completely
Yawn I can at least see some merit in, though yawn + hazard stacking could become problematic. Sing and dark void would do the exact same things that hypnosis did, just with less accuracy. Dark void especially would be spammed because while it does have 10% less accuracy, that is still a coin flip and could cheese matchups. At that point, you are picking straws and it is better to just remove the whole thing and avoid any unnecessary collateral from sing and dark void in the future.
 
Yawn I can at least see some merit in, though yawn + hazard stacking could become problematic. Sing and dark void would do the exact same things that hypnosis did, just with less accuracy. Dark void especially would be spammed because while it does have 10% less accuracy, that is still a coin flip and could cheese matchups. At that point, you are picking straws and it is better to just remove the whole thing and avoid any unnecessary collateral from sing and dark void in the future.
Those moves are like a 50/50. For 14 months I've stared down kingambit and had to guess whether it'll tera dark, flying, fairy, fire or fighting, and if I ever complain the response is "get good". I don't know how staring down dark void is any worse than that. If darkrai is enough of a problem using a 50% accuracy move then maybe thats because it's an uber level mon and is just too much for OU. again I can agree with removing sleep clause because it didn't really make sense but accuracy is a trade off sometimes it pays off sometimes it doesn't. I think "uncompetitive" is a pile of BS something should be evaluated as broken or not, if we think the pay-off for OHKO moves is too high then they're broken, not "uncompetitive". Same as any other move if hypnosis creates too many winning scenarios it's broken, if spore does its broken too. I don't think anything is "uncompetitive".
 
I'm sorry for the sleep-related one-liner but I really want to know why so many people are mad about the removal of a literal game mod. How is this not a universally welcomed change?
Honestly I'm just mad sleep powder users got hit. They seemed like unnecessary collateral since they're usually shit mons or just fun mix-ups you can sometimes make work (venomoth in particular has always been a favorite cheese mon of mine that basically is killed in any tier now). I play mostly on cart, and sleep clause doesn't really affect me much ime, there's never a scenario where someone is spamming sleep or where I'd need the mod to cancel it, its more of a QoL on sim than an actual every match necessity. What does suck is removing moves just to nerf some shit mons and amoongus and 2 mons that probably shouldn't be in the tier to begin with.

I would've much preferred a handshake where if you did apply sleep twice, the opponent gets a popup essentially asking "win now or play it out", sleep would never be abused even if enabled because majority of players will just auto-select win. Cart can replicate that no problem with the FFing and just pretending you won just like you pretend there's a ruleset/tier at all.

idk reading the PR thread I didn't even see any suggesting it, it was everyone bitching about darkrai as an outliner or focusing entirely on the ethics of the clause itself rather than different iterations for said clause. I find it hard to believe sleep is actually that broken just in general it needed an outright ban, when there are restriction possibilities. Obviously sleep shouldn't be unrestricted, but it aint like we haven't had evasion restrictions, infinite game restrictions, several baton pass clauses before the final baton pass ban, etc.

I wait for paralysis to go next, which unironically I'd welcome more since even when the RNG is fucking me sideways the slow is still crippling the mon from ever being useful, sleep self cured.
 
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I'm sorry for the sleep-related one-liner but I really want to know why so many people are mad about the removal of a literal game mod. How is this not a universally welcomed change?
I mean, people have different opinions. Some dislike the way the ban was handled. Some wished there was a middle ground option instead of a whole sale ban. Some also just genuinely thought that Sleep wasn't broken, and it was the mons that were. It also doesn't help that people are being inflammatory and dismissive when others are trying to discuss topic. I do think if people are getting legit mad they should step back and take a breather because it's just a game. Whatever happens is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.
 
Would banning Cloyster and unbanning King’s Rock ever be considered?

My understanding is this goes against tiering policy. For example, Houndstone was initially banned and not Last Respects because Last Respects was only broken on Houndstone. Once Basculegion received Last Respects, now Last Respects was broken on multiple Pokémon and thus we unbanned Hounstone and banned Last Respects.

Likewise, any Pokémon can use King’s Rock, yet it is only broken on Cloyster, so shouldn’t we ban Cloyster? And then if (for example) Maushold was also broken with King’s Rock, we’d then ban King’s Rock and unban Cloyster?

Obviously the reason I bring this up is because of the sleep ban. As I see it, one could approach sleep as being either uncompetitive, overpowered, or against tiering policy (sleep clause mod). Whether no action was taken, action was taken against sleep, or action was taken against certain abusers seemed tricky and something that should be decided by the community. However, sleep was quick banned because the sleep clause mod isn’t consistent with tiering policy (a decision I agree with).

My point is that if a controversial quick ban is enacted in the name of tiering policy, shouldn’t our tiering policy be consistent (which it’s not with Cloyster/King’s Rock)? Otherwise it comes across as people in charge picking and choosing when they want to apply tiering policy.

Ban Cloyster and Unban King’s Rock
I don't think Houndstone was banned instead of Last Respects because it was the only pokemon it was broken on, it's because it was the only pokemon it was on period. Once we got 2.5 more pokemon that could run it (basculin-w isn't a full pokemon here) then we could ban it. Anyway fuck Cloyster (in randbats) and fuck king's rock.
 

KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
it's not actually possible to code it in an accurate way on showdown, and here's why: using showdown's animations with the actual in-game timer would cause a large number of games to go far behind the number of turns that's legally possible
I have no skin in this game, but it would mean that Stall as a strategy either pops off so hard that it gets banned, or drops off the face of the earth because of how the opponent will likely KO more mons in the unofficial turn limit, and either way, the meta will in the end be better off.

Then again, if I have to sit at my computer for thirty minutes as only 20 turns play out, i would rather go fishing and at least have a meal by the end of it all.
 
guys... can we please ban archaludon. This guy is comically op... Like I dont think theres been anyone this op since sneasler(except sneasler owned offense while arch owns balance). Insane snowballing ability just for existing means it has to be dealt with within like 2 turns of it coming out or it just rips through your whole team. Unfortunately all noob rain spammers on ladder peaking for once in their life and dont want their brainless elo machine banned... Only reason I can imagine the low qualified score(its lower than deo s like how is this even possible). This thing better be gone by the time I wake up tomorrow. Good night(except to archaludon)
Sneasler mirrors were one of the worst time to be playing this tier. Sneasler did own offense... until the opponent's sneasler running max speed timid for some reason came in after the rilla sack and cleaned you. Thank god 8/10 of the council had their heads on correctly and didn't unban the fucker when DLC2 dropped
 
my brother in christ there was a survey
Well, I know I said I was done with the discussion, but...

I don't believe the survey was handled well. If you recall what specifically it asked about, the question was "How do you feel about sleep" on a 1-5 scale. What does this exactly measure? Basically how shit the coinflip meta was, which I think we all knew already. There was a lack of middle ground: you either voted 1 for sleep to remain free and legal or you voted 5 and axed sleep altogether.

For an example: Imagine if the Tera suspect was like this. You either wanted a full ban or complete uinrestricted. If we look at the results we got, Full Ban was a very small percentage of the Yes Action people. Removing all the restrictions to place on Tera leaves a lot of people on a side they don't completely agree with, and the ban/noban ratio looks like 20/80 instead of the 59.9/40.1 we got (which I am totally not salty about at all nope never why would you think that I swear).

Of course, this is all under the assumption that it operates like a typical public suspect when instead we got a council vote for... tiering reasons I don't fully understand. If you look at it that way, the survey is just to be extra-sure of public support for the sleep ban. Since I don't fully understand the reason why we couldn't have a sleep suspect, I'm not gonna go into that, but as I have stated before, I believe the council vote made 'public opinion' practically irrelevant, which is what I argue in that quote.

Ok for real last post this time. I just wanna be the funny Lokix man again :D
 

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