Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

Does anybody have any clue how you are even supposed to defensively check kyurem? like earthpower + freeze dry + dragon stab + ice beam feels like it breaks open all def mons
Primarina hates stab freeze dry,
Glowking hates Earthpower
Pex hates Earthpower
Blissey is too passive for use on most teams and probably dies to something anyways
Ting Lu doesnt like stab Ice Beam
Clodsire hates ice stab + earthpower
heatran fucking explodes to earth power
skeledirge doesnt like earthpower or neutral dragon stab
am I missing something here???
 

awyp

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Does anybody have any clue how you are even supposed to defensively check kyurem? like earthpower + freeze dry + dragon stab + ice beam feels like it breaks open all def mons
Primarina hates stab freeze dry,
Glowking hates Earthpower
Pex hates Earthpower
Blissey is too passive for use on most teams and probably dies to something anyways
Ting Lu doesnt like stab Ice Beam
Clodsire hates ice stab + earthpower
heatran fucking explodes to earth power
skeledirge doesnt like earthpower or neutral dragon stab
am I missing something here???
No you're not missing anything, that's the reason it's being suspected right now. There's a set for every single wall that checks it
 
Does anybody have any clue how you are even supposed to defensively check kyurem? like earthpower + freeze dry + dragon stab + ice beam feels like it breaks open all def mons
Primarina hates stab freeze dry,
Glowking hates Earthpower
Pex hates Earthpower
Blissey is too passive for use on most teams and probably dies to something anyways
Ting Lu doesnt like stab Ice Beam
Clodsire hates ice stab + earthpower
heatran fucking explodes to earth power
skeledirge doesnt like earthpower or neutral dragon stab
am I missing something here???
scream tail

only scream tail
 
Okay this has been disproved so many times but fuck it, let's count it - 14 Ubers mons right now,
  1. Annihilape
  2. Baxcalibur
  3. Chi-Yu
  4. Chien-Pao
  5. Espathra
  6. Flutter Mane
  7. Iron Bundle
  8. Magearna
  9. Ogerpon-H
  10. Palafin
  11. Regieleki
  12. Sneasler
  13. Terapagos
  14. Ursaluna-B
18 (I believe) including ones that went up and have come back down
  1. Cyclizar
  2. Gliscor
  3. Houndstone
  4. Volcarona
Now out of these mons, how many are actually broken because of Tera? Annihilape Tera Water, Espathra Tera Fairy/Fighting, Regieleki Tera Ice, Volcarona Tera Anything and Terapagos Tera Stellar. Out of all those bans only a handful were actually because of Tera, maybe the problems were exacerbated with Tera but at its core the mon was still problematic.
I’m glad someone else also gets this. Most of Gen 9’s problems stem from the fact that they introduced so many min-max lacking of weaknesses if any Pokemon. Gen 8 introduced Spectrier in Crown Tundra which would go on to terrorize OU despite poor coverage, then released Flutter Mane in Gen 9. Having 10 less SpA, but having better Spe, SpD, Dual STAB, a Sun ability that immediately boosted one of its stats, and an actual usable movepool (compared to Gen 8 Spectrier). And they also released Palafin, what Slaking and Regigigas would be like if Truant/Slow Start weren’t so detrimental and if they were Water types and if they got a signature move that’s an upgrade from Aqua Jet. Oh and they also made two moves that start out weak but easily get stronger than even likes of Explosion without drawbacks, in Rage Fist and Last Respects.

Gen 9 really is the powercreep gen (currently) with how much they introduced.
 
Does anybody have any clue how you are even supposed to defensively check kyurem? like earthpower + freeze dry + dragon stab + ice beam feels like it breaks open all def mons
Primarina hates stab freeze dry,
Glowking hates Earthpower
Pex hates Earthpower
Blissey is too passive for use on most teams and probably dies to something anyways
Ting Lu doesnt like stab Ice Beam
Clodsire hates ice stab + earthpower
heatran fucking explodes to earth power
skeledirge doesnt like earthpower or neutral dragon stab
am I missing something here???
Thats the neat part, you don’t

and thats why its being suspected and will likely be banned
 
Does anybody have any clue how you are even supposed to defensively check kyurem? like earthpower + freeze dry + dragon stab + ice beam feels like it breaks open all def mons
Primarina hates stab freeze dry,
Glowking hates Earthpower
Pex hates Earthpower
Blissey is too passive for use on most teams and probably dies to something anyways
Ting Lu doesnt like stab Ice Beam
Clodsire hates ice stab + earthpower
heatran fucking explodes to earth power
skeledirge doesnt like earthpower or neutral dragon stab
am I missing something here???
you could use regice... or bronzong...
or this atrocious set called
Gastrodon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Storm Drain
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Earth Power
- Clear Smog

The problem with Kyuruem is something called 'it can be physical or special'. You throw in Blissey. Oh no, it's scale shot! You die.
 
Balloon Tran comes in at least once against anything Kyurem runs and can reveal information about its set but gets obliterated by Earth Power/Ground Tera Blast once its balloon is popped and needs Flash Cannon to pose an immediate threat. That said, it's a pretty nice addition to balance and some offenses I've found. It does well enough into Kyurem and Gouging Fire along with the other usual stuff Heatran checks, and you can run tech Teras like Ghost to beat Zamazenta or Flying for Great Tusk.

Once you know what set it's running it becomes a lot easier to deal with. Blissey hard walls any Special set. You can also lowkey run Chansey; giving up HDB sucks and Eviolite mons in general are bad in the current knock-heavy and hazard-heavy metagame, but Chansey comfortably lives literally any hit including +1 Scale Shot/Icicle Spear and can cripple with Thunder Wave. Both Chansey and Blissey are momentum sinks on non-stall teams, but they do give stall an out.
 
Balloon Tran comes in at least once against anything Kyurem runs and can reveal information about its set but gets obliterated by Earth Power/Ground Tera Blast once its balloon is popped and needs Flash Cannon to pose an immediate threat. That said, it's a pretty nice addition to balance and some offenses I've found. It does well enough into Kyurem and Gouging Fire along with the other usual stuff Heatran checks, and you can run tech Teras like Ghost to beat Zamazenta or Flying for Great Tusk.

Once you know what set it's running it becomes a lot easier to deal with. Blissey hard walls any Special set. You can also lowkey run Chansey; giving up HDB sucks and Eviolite mons in general are bad in the current knock-heavy and hazard-heavy metagame, but Chansey comfortably lives literally any hit including +1 Scale Shot/Icicle Spear and can cripple with Thunder Wave. Both Chansey and Blissey are momentum sinks on non-stall teams, but they do give stall an out.
Thank you, Balloon Heatran is the only even somewhat reliable check to Heatran. I've personally found Tera flying to be good on it. When you first switch in, switch out immeditely to a ground immunity/resist. If the kyurem switches out, then it isn't running tera blast ground for dd sets or HDB. This means that when kyurem switches in again, you get hit a magma storm to deal big damage to any switch in. If they go for the tera ground, you may have to give up a mon, but here's where the next part comes in, steel beam. You tera flying when the kyurem earth powers, and throw off a steel beam. The reason why you choose steel beam over flash cannon is because flash cannon doesn't even kill kyurem from full, where steel beam does. There is the 10% miss chance, but you should be bulky enough to take a freeze dry from the kyurem. If they switch, then something will have to take the hit, which will do big damage to them. I've found that it works really into most kyurem cause while tera'ing is not the best, it is worth it to get rid of kyurem.
 

Soiramio3000

Banned deucer.
Does anybody have any clue how you are even supposed to defensively check kyurem? like earthpower + freeze dry + dragon stab + ice beam feels like it breaks open all def mons
Primarina hates stab freeze dry,
Glowking hates Earthpower
Pex hates Earthpower
Blissey is too passive for use on most teams and probably dies to something anyways
Ting Lu doesnt like stab Ice Beam
Clodsire hates ice stab + earthpower
heatran fucking explodes to earth power
skeledirge doesnt like earthpower or neutral dragon stab
am I missing something here???
I have got an idea which is a gimmick and I am 99% sure you will hate it:
bronzorg with max hp max spdef and levitate ability.
it is immune to earth power and resists the dragon and ice.

I haven't tested it and I have no idea what moveset it should run.

anyway, I am dumb, but who knows, maybe some supergenious here can make it somewhat work.

edit:
I still haven't tested it but here is a possible set it could run:
Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Shadow Ball
- Rest/Protect
- Earthquake

it has got coverage against most special attackers in OU.

edit2 : you know what, this set is bad.
 
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I'll keep this brief since I have a job interview soon(im like that), but archaludon is the current most broken mon in the metagame. Without rain its a solid mon but in rain this thing is just hilariously broken with an assault vest. It beats every counter u can imagine to rain, stopping short only against most dedicated of counterteams. This mon seriously needs to be taken care of yesterday, and I have a feeling that this week's oupl and spl will just show more of what we saw the last few weeks: Incredible rain dominance with high winrates and pickrates for the style.
 
I'll keep this brief since I have a job interview soon(im like that), but archaludon is the current most broken mon in the metagame. Without rain its a solid mon but in rain this thing is just hilariously broken with an assault vest. It beats every counter u can imagine to rain, stopping short only against most dedicated of counterteams. This mon seriously needs to be taken care of yesterday, and I have a feeling that this week's oupl and spl will just show more of what we saw the last few weeks: Incredible rain dominance with high winrates and pickrates for the style.
so, what you're saying is that we ban rain? Great idea! Get rid of Sun while we're at it. Hate those Dragons
 
Was it??? People have always complained about Valiant being too strong, too quick and too versatile. Coming up against a Valiant has always had a "let's spin the wheel and guess what one of 50 different sets it can run": is it Specs, Booster CM, Booster SD, Scarf Trick, Mixed Life Orb and this is before it Teras which it doesn't really need to anyway.
In the context of gen 9 power creep, yes. People complain about everything. But it's more common since the gen came out for people to suggest Valiant isn't broken or even that it is healthy for the tier, at least in my observation. I don't go to this forum every day, though, so maybe I missed a bunch of complaining about it?

Either way, I'd bet most people wouldn't want to ban it before and after the sleep saga.

Now out of these mons, how many are actually broken because of Tera? Annihilape Tera Water, Espathra Tera Fairy/Fighting, Regieleki Tera Ice, Volcarona Tera Anything and Terapagos Tera Stellar. Out of all those bans only a handful were actually because of Tera, maybe the problems were exacerbated with Tera but at its core the mon was still problematic.
The problem with this is it is still quite a higher percentage than you make it sound. Add Roaring Moon to this, as was brought up before. That's 6 out of your list of 18, which should be 19 with Moon. 6/18 = 1/3. So you have roughly one third of these bans being tera related. Technically a little less. I don't care to find if you missed anything else. Roughly 1/3 on nearly 20 mons is enough data to come to a conclusion.

My original point talked about only two pokemon primarily being responsible for the sleep ban. That is Darkrai and Valiant. Tera is responsible for at least 3 times that, right? And more bans are likely coming because that's what gen 9 with tera has been.

I realize the sleep argument is more nuanced than that, and you also have concerns such as yawn + hazards, but you can see the clear double standard here if we just count the mons. If mechanics are overall problematic, we pick and choose based on preference which ones we ban or not. Not by balance or competitiveness. To save Tera, we pick the mons. To save Valiant and hazards, we pick the sleep mechanic.

I also don't vibe with this point because yes, Dynamax was clearly broken and yes people like Tera more because it is nowhere near as broken and has more uniqueness to it - it's not just because "it's fun" it also is competitive to a lot of people otherwise we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
It's not relevant whether one was worse or not. Flutter Mane was worse than Chien-Pao, but Chien-Pao was also eventually banned. Rightly so. Gen 9 is the one with the most OU bans in history. Maybe gen 8 would have looked like that or worse had we kept Dynamax. Even if it would be worse, that wouldn't make gen 9 better.

I also don't vibe with your point because of the clear double standard. I can make arguments about how it was nice that Dynamax provided another way of setting or changing terrain and whether. These are competitive uses. No one would say that it is enough to keep a clearly broken mechanic. But with Tera, people like you try to minimize and deemphasize the clear brokenness and emphasize the niche benefits. Sure, Tera is a fun mechanic. Is it competitive? Heck no.

Even draft leagues tend to only allow lower tier pokemon to tera, if at all, because they know how blatantly overpowered such a powerful mechanic with no drawbacks or opportunity cost is. Yes, I know draft league is an entirely different format than OU. Don't @ me about it. Tera breaks everything is my point. They don't allow the actual good mons to Tera for a reason. In OU, we simply add the tera bonus multiplier to our ban list.
 
The problem with this is it is still quite a higher percentage than you make it sound. Add Roaring Moon to this, as was brought up before. That's 6 out of your list of 18, which should be 19 with Moon. 6/18 = 1/3. So you have roughly one third of these bans being tera related. Technically a little less. I don't care to find if you missed anything else. Roughly 1/3 on nearly 20 mons is enough data to come to a conclusion.

My original point talked about only two pokemon primarily being responsible for the sleep ban. That is Darkrai and Valiant. Tera is responsible for at least 3 times that, right? And more bans are likely coming because that's what gen 9 with tera has been.
That's not true. H-Lilligant and Amoongus were also highly cited as being problematic with sleep along side the two you mentioned. Venosaur also got mentioned a decent amount as well.

Besides, Sleep was more banned because it is uncompetitive, and Sleep Clause isn't cartridge accurate. Neither of which applies to Tera.

Of course, that's not convenient for the narrative you're trying to create, so let's just ignore all of that.
 
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amoonguss? Priblematic? Solid, ut problematic is a total exageration. Ban sleep is the stupidest shit
My guy, every single thing you post on this website is the most needlessly hostile, combative shit. Who hurt you?

Anyways there were pages upon pages upon pages of discussion about Sleep, and Finch posted several very detailed explanations about exactly why it was banned. Maybe you should try actually reading those to understand both sides of the conversation before confidently asserting that the decision made was "the stupidest shit". If you disagree with that, that sucks. That conversation is over. You're still entitled to your opinion on the ban, but you should probably express it a little better than just asserting that the sleep ban is stupid. You've convinced nobody and contributed exactly nothing to the conversation either way.
 
Nah I was actually arguing in the better OU the natdex thread but apparently RNG should be banned. My strategy is to hit 3 hurricanes in a row And If it misses it should be banned shouldnt it? If it confuses it should be banned uh? RNG is IN Pokémon And If you can't bear it Go to play chess lol. The problem was clearly darkrai but it is ways Too popular among The players to be banned. Blizzard should be banned Because freeze is Also Very rewarding And I think There arent that much games that were played on sleep comparer to played on freeze. For fking real sleep clause is alright!
 
That's not true. H-Lilligant and Amoongus were also highly cited as being problematic with sleep along side the two you mentioned. Venosaur also got mentioned a decent amount as well.
Do you realize it's different for a sun sweeper, where you literally have to set up the sun first, than some mon like Darkrai or Valiant that can just run sash with great speed right away? In Finch's explanation, he talks about the problem of forced early progress. If you see the team preview, you know the sun setter is coming in before the sweepers. You have time to be proactive first. People can mention the sun sleep mons all they want, but it's obviously not as bad.

I'll admit that H-Liligant is pretty strong. So maybe that could be pushed over the top anyways. Venosaur in particular has been that way for generations now. And if it was somehow broken now, which I don't think most would agree with in the first place, it would be more likely because of Tera than sleep.

Amoongus is slow and has been like this the entire gen and prior gens. No one complained until Darkrai started messing up the tier. With sleep clause, most of the slow sleep mons were balanced fine for years. The biggest problem is when very fast, powerful mons get sleep and then you have to account for that in addition to whatever attacks they might make.

But fine, let's say I give all of these to you. Even Amoongus, for some reason. I'll give it to you just for the sake of argument. You added 3 mons to the original 2 mons I brought up. 2 + 3 = 5. 5 is still less than 6. IMO, it should be closer to 3 since Hisuian Liligant is the only one who should be borderline between the 3 you brought up. Either way, it doesn't matter because 5 < 6 and counting. It's close enough whether was say 3 times, two times, or even roughly similar.

Of course, that's not convenient for the narrative you're trying to create, so let's just ignore them.
I specifically mentioned that the sleep conversation was more nuanced than that and mentioned yawn/hazards as an example. Ironic of you to ignore that to form your narrative. Either way, Tera still makes more mons broken.

Christ we're still talking about Sleep?!
I said in my initial comment that this isn't about disputing the sleep decision itself. It's about the discrepancy between various decisions, as well as pointing out that our sacred cow Tera actually breaks more mons.

What I'm making isn't and wasn't ever an argument to change our sleep decision. It's an argument to better define our standards and to ban tera if we actually want to be consistent.
 
I think Hydrapple is a good pokemon. Do you think Hydrapple is a good pokemon? I do, he's cute and cool and hits very hard. While not breaking any heavy ground with this one, I've been having very high success with this setup despite the icy threats going around recently:

Hydrapple @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fickle Beam
- Leaf Storm
- Hydro Pump
- Earth Power

Hydro Pumping a Gilscor that decides to stay in due to overconfidence is a very satisfying thing. Do you know that Hydrapple can survive a Tera Grass Flower Trick from Meowscarada while being Tera Water? I do. Because that's how I ruined some poor schmucks day today. And many more others learned the same because Hydrapple is cool. Pick Hydrapple. (please let's talk about anything else)
 
Just play the VaporeMons ladder Rain isn't broken there‍♂♂♂

Oneliner aside, how is our current line of thinking on Gholdengo and hazards in general? From what I have gathered Deoxys-Speed has settled into it's role and offensive variants are performing better than expected. Do we still think Deo is a heavy talking point in the hazard stacking discourse, and do we still think Ghold is still too potent of hazard deterrent rn?
I don't like deo-s, but it's hard to say whether it's actually an issue, it can get a lot done for how relatively frail it should be, I think its honestly only getting a pass because it's not explicitly an issue with all the other great setters/fast offensive threats we have available where it's just overshadowed.


Gholdengo I think should go more because it's disgustingly good, pressuring the team builder a bit as the methods of dealing with it are comparatively restrictive. If you can't threaten an ohko or a 2hko, it can be a pain with recover. It can't even be crippled like many other threats even if you do tera it. You can't trick it, you can't paralyze it, can't even burn it for a little extra chip. The one thing that really convinced me was an spl game I was watching, it essentially became a match around positioning each players gholdengo. It's been quite a while but seeing that made me question it's influence in the tier.


There's other things I'd like to see focused on tiering wise right now than either of these 2 unfortunately.
 
Gholdengo I think should go more because it's disgustingly good, pressuring the team builder a bit as the methods of dealing with it are comparatively restrictive. If you can't threaten an ohko or a 2hko, it can be a pain with recover. It can't even be crippled like many other threats even if you do tera it. You can't trick it, you can't paralyze it, can't even burn it for a little extra chip. The one thing that really convinced me was an spl game I was watching, it essentially became a match around positioning each players gholdengo. It's been quite a while but seeing that made me question it's influence in the tier.
This is about my personal feelings in regard to Ghold, even outside of hazards. The fact you have to threaten a 2HK or OHK to force it out otherwise you risk getting walled by its sheer bulk and power feels highly restrictive. Sure, you could argue the amount of ground/darks/fires in the tier help check it in check, but the fact that it remains powerful and has to be accounted for or else you get tossed into the dumpster feels highly bad. Especially since you cannot really status it in any meaningful way, which is traditionally how I prefer to keep select threats under control via Para/Toxic/whatever at that point. When I was first learning the ladder thru hopping in the fact you cannot trick the bastard threw me thru a loop.

The Hazard keeping is just icing on the cake of a mon that I feel is otherwise a bit too influencing by just existing. Simply put, being unable to use half of the traditional checks to common sweepers or walls due to the fact its completely unable to be hit by status is harrowing.
 
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