Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

Now that people have gotten a taste of what a Steel and Dragon type can do in OU, it'd be interesting if Hisuian Goodra sees more usage.

I'm happy with the Archa ban but can we continue to use Rain?

As for the next ban, it's going to be Roaring Moon, then Kyurem, then Kingambit hopefully.
It was more than just the Steel/Dragon typing to be honest. Stamina is a broken ability on a Pokemon that actually has the stats to use it, and Electro Shot made Arch very difficult to reliably check defensively and pretty much guaranteed at least one kill and usually 2-3 against most teams if positioned decently. Hisuian Goodra is a sleeper pick but it definitely can't fill the same role as Arch, and Duraludon is garbage and will never see serious use, you can waterboard me with hahas if it happens (I don't need to worry about this because it won't).

It's highly unlikely that Kyurem gets double jeopardy'd so quickly unless something drastic shifts in the metagame to warrant a retest. Like it or not, we're probably stuck with it until the end of the generation.
 
It's highly unlikely that Kyurem gets double jeopardy'd so quickly unless something drastic shifts in the metagame to warrant a retest. Like it or not, we're probably stuck with it until the end of the generation.
the biggest (but still invalid) anti-ban argument for kyurem was that it "keeps rain in check", and rain just got a hell of a lot easier to keep in check. the already-weak arguments for keeping kyurem just got weaker
 

658Greninja

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WOOOOOOOOOOOOO

RIP ARCHALUBOZO


This is a good start to addressing the matchup fishy issues in the tier.

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Winners

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Dragonite’s matchup vs Rain was awkward because of Archaludon discouraging it from clicking E-Speed. With that gone, Dnite becomes a better overall pick vs or even on Rain.

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Finally Lando doesn’t have to run fucking Earth Power. It is a good time to point out that with 4 Atk EVs and an Adamant nature, Lando OHKOs standard Raging Bolt with EQ after rocks.

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Meowscarda + Weavile can throw out their STABs without worrying about boosting Archaludon’s defense. Weavile can rkill several threats with Ice Shard like Roaring Moon, Dragapult, and Raging Bolt, so encouraging more usage of it will be more beneficial for the meta.

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Wogre’s mu vs Rain is even more dangerous. The ban also allows Wogre to freely run Play Rough instead.

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Monke no like Bridge. Because Monke no can click Wood Hammer. Monke like ban very much.

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No longer walled by Archaludon, Gking’s rain matchup becomes better.

Losers

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It shouldn’t be a subtle indicator that banning Archaludon hurts Rain alot. Treads may especially take a hit from this. However with the tools that Rain has rn, it will still remain a solid archetype, but not the single best archetype in the tier.

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Hippowdon may still have a niche even after Arch leaves, but it was also the main reason it was even ranked in the VR.

Some other winners and losers include.

+ Sun who appreciates the nerf to Rain.

+ Ting-Lu who is less likely to get worn down by Archaludon before Raging Bolt comes in.

- Clodsire who has less reason to be on Balance teams and has bad matchups into alot of things but will still be good due to its traits.

+ Manaphy who no longer has a crazy good check via Archaludon and could take its place as a wallbreaker.

+ Hoodra might unironically accompany a small niche thanks to the addition of Knock Off and amazing bulk all-around, but doesn’t have anywhere near the horsepower Archaludon did.

+ Hydrapple who appreciates one less Dragon being in the tier and also may appreciate higher usage of Wogre and Rillaboom.

My next post will be quite a meta analysis. So stay tuned for that.
 

xavgb

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Rain definitely doesn't suck even with Archa gone. Anyway, I'm gonna drop a placeholder post here just to remind people that addressing Archa first was always gonna be the move for tiering reasons, and even if rain and sun become broken in the future the other bans that were suggested (such as Damp Rock/Heat Rock) were never gonna happen at this point since there's currently not enough proof of the style being a problem as opposed to a couple of pokemon (Archaludon, Gouging Fire). I said something similar in the council views thread too, just thought it needed re-iterating after Archaludon left.
 
I'm glad Arch is gone. The thing was way too oppressive. I don't think rain will be broken anymore, but if it somehow is then there are other things I would look at before common suggestions like weather rocks. I don't think Barry is the problem as it was fairly simple to counter before Arch, but it is worth noting that even the other Swift Swim users wouldn't have that same speed tier if they were to replace it.

The next mons I would personally look at are Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire. They are just too difficult to check without devoting too many resources in the teambuilder to it. These two are the most obvious problems in my opinion.

However, I don't particularly mind Raging Bolt. Almost every team is going to have a ground type anyways. And without Stamina boosting Arch to counter physical attacks that should otherwise kill its typing, this means we have more options for ground types that can deal with Bolt. You have slower ones like Clod who can switch into any attack and faster ones like Tusk or Cockroach-T that can threaten to revenge kill it with an attack. There is a chance it is maybe still too broken with Tera, but I really like the presence in the tier. If Gambit is ok, this thing should definitely be considered ok. Obviously, this is all an oversimplification. This is only meant to be a fraction of my post, not an entire argument on why I think it is actually good for the tier and helps a lot of archetypes.

Before this latest DLC, I though Waterpon and Manaphy were totally broken. But they fell off more recently, especially Manaphy. Waterpon is still good, but it doesn't seem as crazy as it did before. I'm in wait and see mode on them. If Raging Neck gets the guillotine, I could see one or both of these things becoming problematic again. But for now, I'm no action on them.

I do think D-Speed and eventually Tera will at some point need to be addressed, but there doesn't appear to be any appetite for it now.

There are a lot of mons, like Gambit and Volc, that I would heavily consider banning with Tera still in the tier. However, I probably wouldn't without it. Honestly, I would just rather say goodbye to Tera than ban the amount of mons that will likely need to be banned in the end. But it's clear we aren't ready for this. Address the obvious stuff first and then see where we are at.
 
WOOOOOOOOOOOOO

RIP ARCHALUBOZO


This is a good start to addressing the matchup fishy issues in the tier.

View attachment 605382

Winners

View attachment 605383Dragonite’s matchup vs Rain was awkward because of Archaludon discouraging it from clicking E-Speed. With that gone, Dnite becomes a better overall pick vs or even on Rain.

View attachment 605384Finally Lando doesn’t have to run fucking Earth Power. It is a good time to point out that with 4 Atk EVs and an Adamant nature, Lando OHKOs standard Raging Bolt with EQ after rocks.

View attachment 605385
View attachment 605386Meowscarda + Weavile can throw out their STABs without worrying about boosting Archaludon’s defense. Weavile can rkill several threats with Ice Shard like Roaring Moon, Dragapult, and Raging Bolt, so encouraging more usage of it will be more beneficial for the meta.

View attachment 605387Wogre’s mu vs Rain is even more dangerous. The ban also allows Wogre to freely run Play Rough instead.

View attachment 605388Monke no like Bridge. Because Monke no can click Wood Hammer. Monke like ban very much.

View attachment 605389No longer walled by Archaludon, Gking’s rain matchup becomes better.

Losers

View attachment 605390View attachment 605391View attachment 605392It shouldn’t be a subtle indicator that banning Archaludon hurts Rain alot. Treads may especially take a hit from this. However with the tools that Rain has rn, it will still remain a solid archetype, but not the single best archetype in the tier.

View attachment 605393Hippowdon may still have a niche even after Arch leaves, but it was also the main reason it was even ranked in the VR.

Some other winners and losers include.

+ Sun who appreciates the nerf to Rain.

+ Ting-Lu who is less likely to get worn down by Archaludon before Raging Bolt comes in.

- Clodsire who has less reason to be on Balance teams and has bad matchups into alot of things but will still be good due to its traits.

+ Manaphy who no longer has a crazy good check via Archaludon and could take its place as a wallbreaker.

+ Hoodra might unironically accompany a small niche thanks to the addition of Knock Off and amazing bulk all-around, but doesn’t have anywhere near the horsepower Archaludon did.

+ Hydrapple who appreciates one less Dragon being in the tier and also may appreciate higher usage of Wogre and Rillaboom.

My next post will be quite a meta analysis. So stay tuned for that.
Rillaboom imo gets worse. Defensive Archaludon was one of G-Terrain's strongest soldiers, since it would get double recovery + was one of the best rockers on G-Terrain squads. Even on rain teams, Arch loved Rilla support to weaken EQs from the likes of Great Tusk or Gliscor.
 
Now that arch is out of the way, I want to talk about a pokemon that I think is certainly suspect worthy but probably not on most people's mind when they think of broken pokemon: Ogerpon wellspring. If you thought kyurem was broken, than this mon probably looks like arceus to you because the way this thing destroys balance is truly like no other. With encore, it can punch past damn near every single balance structure out there right now and frequently forces several sacs to kill it with toxic damage, which is really the only reliable counterplay short of a surprise tera(very easy to scout with a mon that applies so much offensive pressure like woger). With play rough, it can beat dragon type counters such as roaring moon and dragonite(roaring moon especially can get owned on the switch off a predict).

While it is certainly weak to hazards, something that in previous metas kept it down quite aggressively due to the prevalence of gholdengo making it challenging to remove hazards, balances nowadays have trended away from gholdengo due to the sheer quantity of threats requiring more robust defensive structures that frequently push gholdengo out of the team. The best bet for many balance teams to deal with encore especially is probably tera garg or gliscor, but as I have already said this is exceptionally easy to scout and frequently ends up with a terastillization for nothing as they switch out predicting your obvious tera since nothing on balance can naturally manage a +2 woger.

Another thing I'd like to say is that at the moment, balance is kept afloat in large part thanks to the metal birds skarmory and corviknight, which woger completely owns. Many balances rely on stuff like skarm for their role compression spiking+general physical check and woger just completely flips the dynamic, making partners like roaring moon and kingambit much more dangerous.

Lastly, I would like to talk about how as more pokemon get banned, Ogerpon wellspring will only become stronger and stronger. Already, balance has lost amoongus to the sleep ban, one of its most reliable answers in the past, and now with archaludon being banned woger is even stronger. With gouging fire and raging bolt especially being the most likely candidates for future tiering action, the tier will lose another set of good options for handling this pokemon.

Obviously for offense, woger is pretty easy to revenge with the plethora of strong fast mons it carries, and stall can terastalize dozo to handle woger with relative ease as long as it isnt 1 attack dozo(stall doesnt really run 1 attack though), but for balance, this pokemon is way harder to deal with than kyurem ever was, and that almost got kyurem banned. I certainly think that this pokemon should be on the radar as I do believe it will only get better and better with time.
 
Now that arch is out of the way, I want to talk about a pokemon that I think is certainly suspect worthy but probably not on most people's mind when they think of broken pokemon: Ogerpon wellspring. If you thought kyurem was broken, than this mon probably looks like arceus to you because the way this thing destroys balance is truly like no other. With encore, it can punch past damn near every single balance structure out there right now and frequently forces several sacs to kill it with toxic damage, which is really the only reliable counterplay short of a surprise tera(very easy to scout with a mon that applies so much offensive pressure like woger). With play rough, it can beat dragon type counters such as roaring moon and dragonite(roaring moon especially can get owned on the switch off a predict).

While it is certainly weak to hazards, something that in previous metas kept it down quite aggressively due to the prevalence of gholdengo making it challenging to remove hazards, balances nowadays have trended away from gholdengo due to the sheer quantity of threats requiring more robust defensive structures that frequently push gholdengo out of the team. The best bet for many balance teams to deal with encore especially is probably tera garg or gliscor, but as I have already said this is exceptionally easy to scout and frequently ends up with a terastillization for nothing as they switch out predicting your obvious tera since nothing on balance can naturally manage a +2 woger.

Another thing I'd like to say is that at the moment, balance is kept afloat in large part thanks to the metal birds skarmory and corviknight, which woger completely owns. Many balances rely on stuff like skarm for their role compression spiking+general physical check and woger just completely flips the dynamic, making partners like roaring moon and kingambit much more dangerous.

Lastly, I would like to talk about how as more pokemon get banned, Ogerpon wellspring will only become stronger and stronger. Already, balance has lost amoongus to the sleep ban, one of its most reliable answers in the past, and now with archaludon being banned woger is even stronger. With gouging fire and raging bolt especially being the most likely candidates for future tiering action, the tier will lose another set of good options for handling this pokemon.

Obviously for offense, woger is pretty easy to revenge with the plethora of strong fast mons it carries, and stall can terastalize dozo to handle woger with relative ease as long as it isnt 1 attack dozo(stall doesnt really run 1 attack though), but for balance, this pokemon is way harder to deal with than kyurem ever was, and that almost got kyurem banned. I certainly think that this pokemon should be on the radar as I do believe it will only get better and better with time.

Like reaction from srn you know this shit serious

Ok seriously speaking yeah I think waterpon is kinda funky, I mean now with the sole thing (archaludon) that was keeping it from being able to run it's funny sets (trailblaze, pr, etc) instead of superpower, I believe we'll probably see a bit of a uptick in its usage. Can it be handled by the extremes of the meta? Yeah, but what about the milder middle? Do they not matter in he's eyes, I wonder?

I feel bad for balance users cause it seems like they just can't catch a damn break this gen, between shit like annihilape, Pao forcing dozo on almost every team, hearthflame being a nuke, waterpon existing at that time (albeit amoog was a real Mon back then), Rmoon existing and now arch/kyurem/friends pulling up it seems like balance almost always will die sooner or later.
 
Welp, now time for me to start using the overqwil rain team more seriously. (Also RIP Bozo (RIP stands for Rest in Piss))

Also, use Heatran cause that mon is going to be the best in the tier right now since it can counter anything.
 
Cool archaludon is gone

Also a list of mons who are broken due to tera or are most likely broken due to tera including ones that have been banned:
Volcarona
Kingambit
Gouging Fire (Sun calcs are less stupid without tera fire)
Raging Bolt
Regieleki

The list feels quite a bit more sizable than the start of the gen honestly. But I feel as if literally every single one of these pokemon would be fine without tera most likely. Was gonna say Zama-C possibly could be fine without tera but I'm super iffy on that mon considering how dumb Zama-C was last time


Also I think Roaring Moon and once again Kyurem are probably the most pressing issues at the moment, but I hope it's Roaring Moon, because setup sweeper moon is super dumb
 
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Cool archaludon is gone

Also a list of mons who are broken due to tera or are most likely broken due to tera including ones that have been banned:
Volcarona
Kingambit
Gouging Fire (Sun calcs are less stupid without tera fire)
Raging Bolt
Espathra (Struggles into dark and ghosts without tera as it cannot really set up on them.)
Regieleki

The list feels quite a bit more sizable than the start of the gen honestly. But I feel as if literally every single one of these pokemon would be fine without tera most likely. Was gonna say Zama-C possibly could be fine without tera but I'm super iffy on that mon considering how dumb Zama-C was last time


Also I think Roaring Moon and once again Kyurem are probably the most pressing issues at the moment, but I hope it's Roaring Moon, because setup sweeper moon is super dumb
I agree with the roaring moon being the most pressing issue, at the very least Kyurem is weak to hazards while moon is not. Remember when we were calling it roaring mid? The good old days.
Also, Esparthra is still going to be broke without Tera, just a tiny bit less so. It still has dazzling gleam to hit dark types and Ghold could eventually be overun by multiple stored powers. It was even used in an Ubers World Cup match and won.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ubers-747696
+2 0 SpA Espathra Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 164-193 (43.3 - 51%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Espathra Stored Power (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 187-221 (49.4 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
At +2 in Sp.Attack, Sp.Defense and Speed, it is a 2hit ko because you get a speed boost on the second turn to ko ghold. Gambit could potentially stop it, but that would be the only mon.
 

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