Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

They should give a pokemon Mold Breaker and Toxic. I've become too addicted to Mold Breaker para that I feel positively tingly imagining the sheer satisfaction I'd get from using toxic on Garg or similar.
You can do these things with mold breaker right now.
1. Soak a ghold with basculegion.
2. Encore a ghold with hawlucha.
3. Taunt a ghold with haxorus.
4. Sweet kiss a garg with tinkaton.
5. Whirlwind out a ghold with rampardos.
TLDR, ghold is screwed, and garg is too I guess.
 
Pardon my lack of knowledge, but does Corrosion piece Garg's ability? I thought it only pierced regardless of type?
it only ignores type immunities, so corrosion mons still can't poison garg. for that matter, they can't poison ghold either, because corrosion doesn't make the moves ignore type immunities, only the status condition, so only poison-type status moves can poison steel-types (and, like, twineedle and shit but who cares), and ghold is immune to both poison attacks and status moves
 
it only ignores type immunities, so corrosion mons still can't poison garg. for that matter, they can't poison ghold either, because corrosion doesn't make the moves ignore type immunities, only the status condition, so only poison-type status moves can poison steel-types (and, like, twineedle and shit but who cares), and ghold is immune to both poison attacks and status moves
You could also use corrosion Glimmora, which I have seen on ladder a bit, to make sure that you can get a poison off. However, it is inferior to toxic debris, though it would be cool if toxic spikes from a corrosion mon poisoned steel/poison types. Then that could see some use.
I came up with the idea of worry seed shiftry to counter ghold to get a defog off, but because ghold is dumb you can't do that. Ghold really doesn't want to be countered by fun methods.
 
You could also use corrosion Glimmora, which I have seen on ladder a bit, to make sure that you can get a poison off. However, it is inferior to toxic debris, though it would be cool if toxic spikes from a corrosion mon poisoned steel/poison types. Then that could see some use.
I came up with the idea of worry seed shiftry to counter ghold to get a defog off, but because ghold is dumb you can't do that. Ghold really doesn't want to be countered by fun methods.
the main problem with corrosion glimmora is that it gets earth power, and a strong supereffective move from something with a base-130 attacking stat is almost always a better thing to click on a steel-type than toxic. there are exceptions, but not enough of them to really justify it
 
the main problem with corrosion glimmora is that it gets earth power, and a strong supereffective move from something with a base-130 attacking stat is almost always a better thing to click on a steel-type than toxic. there are exceptions, but not enough of them to really justify it
Agree, the only reason would be corv/skarm and air balloon ghold/heatran, both of which I would rather hit with power gem into another power gem or an earth power.
Also isn't it kinda crazy that a mon with 130 attacking stat is not used for attacking sets. If it didn't get toxic debris, not only would it not likely be OU, it would also mostly use offensive sets. Kinda reminds us how much an ability can change how a mon is changed.
 
I'm cooking some meal with :latios:, and found pivot set with Future Sight very interesting.

Latios @ Soul Dew / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Fairy / Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Future Sight
- Recover / Aura Sphere / Tera Blast / Whatever you need
- Flip Turn

I'm using this set alongside CB Tyranitar on a sand team, and it works fantastic, at it gives this kind of teams very valuable assets like a Ground immunity, a Fighting check, a secondary Fire/Water resist and a decent speed tier. Latios scares away many Tyranitar checks, the most important being Great Tusk, so, you can set up FS and then, pivot out in an incoming check like G-Slowking to allow Tyranitar to spam its brutally strong Knock Off and put a lof of pressure on defensive cores. Also, this can overwhelm Kingambit if it is the only Dark type of opposing team, as it has to decide if it wants to block the FS or Tera to block Tyranitar's EQ/Low Kick, meaning it will be taking major damage. This pair forces a lot of damage or straight out KO many of Excadrill counters like metal birds, Gliscor and Tusk, allowing it to clean lategame. You can drop Recover for another coverage move like Aura Sphere or Tera Blast with Tera Fairy, especially if you pair it with Wish support (I'm running a fully def Alomomola in this team). As a side note, you can use Draco Meteor and then set up FS, as the SpA drop won't count in the damage dealt if you are out of the field.
Cool set and cool mon, not the best in the meta, but still has its merits with the addition of Flip Turn to its movepool, allowing it to function as an offensive pivot with a good set of resistances/bulk.

Low quality replay
Against stall
 
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I have experimented with Raging Bolt some. Of all the sets I made, the only one I am really confident in is the slow pivot.

Raging Bolt @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Thunderclap
- Draco Meteor
- Volt Switch

It's pretty good. You can switch into a lot of special attackers that aren't Kyurem or Enamorus. You can phase them out or slow pivot into a mon that can deal with it. Thunderclap is a bit less potent without a setup move or an item boosting power. But the set still hits hard enough. Perhaps the EVs could be optimized further. The special attack should not be any less than max, though. I also went Tera Electric for Thunderclap power, but maybe a defensive Tera would be better.

I originally tried it with Weather Ball on a team with Glowking, but I almost never clicked the move. It was too situational and useless in most situations. I tried several other moves in that slot until I settled on Dragon Tail. This was really useful for phasing out special setup sweepers like Volcorona. The only thing is you have to be careful of Tera Fairy. It is still very useful on a team with hazards.

Roar would maybe be better to hit fairies if not for the Assault Vest, though negative priority means you are likely getting hit for fairy STAB first. I did briefly experiment with Roar Throat Spray, but it was just generally inferior to Booster Energy. If someone did make some sort of defensive set with Roar, they would likely be better off with Leftovers or something.

The other set that I am working on is a Dragon Cheer crit set. But I want to test it on a Sun team just to see the effects of crits with and without the Protosynthesis boosts. The problem is I don't really play Sun much. I haven't since before the first DLC. So it's taking me awhile to figure it out.

The rest I have tried so far was jank that I cannot recommend. Among the highlights are Blunder Policy Zap Cannon, a physical attacking set, a max Defense Booster Energy Body Press set, and a Snarl Throat Spray set that is still not as good as just running Booster Energy.

Perhaps the most hilarious failure was the Body Press set, which I had planned to buff with Booster Energy. The issue was that max defense with a + nature was capped at 309. The special attack with no EVs was stuck at 310. The only way to actually get the defense lower than the special attack is to run a -special attack nature. So I tried Impish Nature with 132 EVs wasted back into a - nature special attack to try to get it back to 308. Then I put the remaining 124 EVs into HP and added Calm Mind to try and make up for the shortcomings. Don't do this.

In fact, don't ever run a - special attack nature on Bolt for any reason. It is extremely inefficient.

Even if you aren't running a special attacking set, for some reason, just the uninvested special attack will still be higher than max attack with a + nature. So there is no reason to ever run a physical set, but if you did, you would at least want it to be mixed set and not a pure physical attacker. You will also never get an attack boost from Protosynthesis on Bolt because even an uninvested - nature special attack will be higher than 252 + nature defense by 10 points. In fact, the only other stats that you even can get the boost on are Defense and Special defense. It is mathematically impossible on Raging Bolt to get your speed or attack higher than the special attack. However, this still requires a - nature in special attack and that just isn't worth it. At that point, just run Assault Vest or a Kee Berry.
 
The other set that I am working on is a Dragon Cheer crit set. But I want to test it on a Sun team just to see the effects of crits with and without the Protosynthesis boosts. The problem is I don't really play Sun much. I haven't since before the first DLC. So it's taking me awhile to figure it out.
Dragon cheer doesn't work in singles, it is a doubles only move I think. It would be a cool move, but sadly it only affects allies.
 
Oh. I didn't know that. I looked it up and it apparently fails if there isn't an ally next to the user. There goes another silly idea. Oh well.
Maybe you could try heavy slam Raging bolt, gives you a way to hit fairy types super effectively.
Probably not a good idea as it does like 30% to clefable, so yeah raging bolt doesn't have a lot of good set versatility.
 

Mimikyu Stardust

Loli Kami Requiem~☆
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UPL Champion
(Originally meant for Views from the Council but the thread is closing soon and don't want my post to drown)

Hi everyone after 2 months of DLC 2 i feel the meta has developed into something great and it has been the most fun and balanced it has been for a while, however reading some of the discourse especially in the more recent post from Views from the council i cant wrap my head around some of the complained mon and have to ask.

why are people saying roaring moon and ogerpon wellspring broken? i don't see much of a valid reason in practice, in fact i would probably put dragapult and kingambit higher on the "Broken" scale, and i would be crazy to say those 2 pokemon are banworthy/bad for the meta.

there is one pokemon i didnt mention that i would be fine with a suspect, gouging fire is the closest thing to broken, and yea, its set up sweeping set can sometimes feel impossible to beat without something like dondozo, especially if it opts for tera poison or tera ghost and breaking swipe, it is probably the best anti-BO mon out there beating things like gliscor zamazenta and terastalized kingambit with ease, but it really is only that set thats broken. its booster energy set can be much more easily revenge killed with things like lando and great tusk, and the choice band set under sun is just a physical walking wake that is slower which can be beaten p much the same way one would try and beat walking wake. Personally i think this pokemon is fine, i would vote do not ban if it get suspect tested but i can see the reason as to why people find it BS (hell even Vert does) and might change my mind in the future.

I wanted to quote the people making post on these 2 pokemon from the other thread but i don't know how to do it so i'll just write a few reason as to why ogerpon wellspring and roaring moon are not broken.


:roaring-moon:
now, lets start with roaring moon. Roaring Moon is the biggest skill check in this generation. It can easily win against unprepared teams and bad players, however it really only have one set and can be beaten easily just by using commonly used pokemon. Roaring moon's main strength as a sweeper is with the right move and coverage, it can easily beat almost everything, brick break for kingambit, earthquake for bulky fire and steels, taunt for stall, and sometimes even random tera blast for matchup fishing. However, If it doesn't have the right move, it will at most knock off 1-2 pokemon, and maybe kill something, but you can just revenge kill it. If it doesnt have eq or brick break, go gambit and iron head it or garg and salt cure it, if it doesnt have taunt, go skarmory and just iron defense on it, there are even mons that can check/counter roaring moon 100% of the time like dondozo, gliscor and landorus-t even forcing it to tera. Roaring moon is also a tera hog, its typing defensive sucks againts a lot of defensive pokemon being weak to fighting and fairy, which forces you to turn flying every time you want to sweep, and this assumes you even have the right move to win. Even if you have all of that, you still have to worry about opposing tera, since theres really only one way to run roaring moon, everyone knows what it does and how to beat it, so if they see a roaring moon vs kingambit, they will know to check for eq or brick break by switching out to a defensive wall, then come back to revenge kill, or just terastalize to flying and kill it before moon can do anything. Amazing as this pokemon look, and the potential it has, it can still be easily beaten by some of the most common pokemon and good building disciplines (good defensive backbone, revenge killers, offensive synergy). its really no more anoyying than volcarona, iron valiant, kingambit or hatterene which has a bigger variety of sets and similar effectiveness. Remember, this pokemon was UU for a time, and in that meta pokemon like skarmory didnt even exist, yes it did get knock off but people are overstating how much of a buff it is. if you have a decent team, and know how to play around roaring moon, you're never going to lose to this more than you would lose to any other sweeper in the game. It has great usage stats on both SPL and on ladder because of how consistent of a sweeper it is on HO, but it has little variety in its set and any decently built team will have a way to beat it. If you don't, please build a better team, you will lose to it sometimes of course but please fix it.

:ogerpon-wellspring:
Ogerpon wellspring is an even bigger head scratcher, its arguably worse than it was in pre-indigo disk with the abundance of dragon, and a rise of zamazenta and rillaboom post archaludon. I mostly see it on BO and HO with pokemon like kingambit, fast lando-t and roaring moon. It is one of the most dominant style of teams right now considering how well they synergize with eachother, but its not so dominant that it requires perfect play and counters to win. The main complain is coming from its coverage of Grass/Water/Fairy and with SD, it becomes almost unstoppable, but it needs a lot of support for it to work well. It has alright speed, and alright bulk, its easily revenge killed by some of the most common threats in dragapult, and it effectively doesnt have an item so hazards absolutely decimates it. It has a larger variety of sets than roaring moon but it also has an even bigger pool of counters. I'm not saying that ogerpon wellspring is a bad pokemon or anything, but from what pokemon we have it doesnt really stand out as overpowered, even stuff its supposed to beat like volcarona, garganacl, gliscor often carry tera that beats ogerpon without sabotaging its usefulness, it can be easily outsped and revenge killed by the dragons, and even stuff like iron moth, tornadus and iron valiant after a bit of chip. The rise of zamazenta and rillaboom i've mentioned before also heavily hindered its usefulness, since ogerpon gets turned into set up opportunity by zama and just dies to rillaboom, these teams often carry hawlucha too which destroys ogerpon. I've p much tried out every team style on ladder recently and i havent really struggled THAT much againts it, most teams have outs and it often comes down to whether or not you can outplay the opponent or not, which stands true with every pokemon. It has great defensive utility againts water, but with the lack of boots/item, bad match up vs tornadus slowking-g and the dragons, and its above average speed, its really not that hard to revenge kill or even just out maneuver it.

I saw some people clamoring for a raging bolt, gliscor and volcarona ban, i disagree with those as well but don't really have many thoughts on it and they dont seem to have as much support as the two i mentioned above.
 
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(Originally meant for Views from the Council but the thread is closing soon and don't want my post to drown)

Hi everyone after 2 months of DLC 2 i feel the meta has developed into something great and it has been the most fun and balanced it has been for a while, however reading some of the discourse especially in the more recent post from Views from the council i cant wrap my head around some of the complained mon and have to ask.

why are people saying roaring moon and ogerpon wellspring broken? i don't see much of a valid reason in practice, in fact i would probably put dragapult and kingambit higher on the "Broken" scale, and i would be crazy to say those 2 pokemon are banworthy/bad for the meta.

there is one pokemon i didnt mention that i would be fine with a suspect, gouging fire is the closest thing to broken, and yea, its set up sweeping set can sometimes feel impossible to beat without something like dondozo, especially if it opts for tera poison or tera ghost and breaking swipe, it is probably the best anti-BO mon out there beating things like gliscor zamazenta and terastalized kingambit with ease, but it really is only that set thats broken. its booster energy set can be much more easily revenge killed with things like lando and great tusk, and the choice band set under sun is just a physical walking wake that is slower which can be beaten p much the same way one would try and beat walking wake. Personally i think this pokemon is fine, i would vote do not ban if it get suspect tested but i can see the reason as to why people find it BS (hell even Vert does) and might change my mind in the future.

I wanted to quote the people making post on these 2 pokemon from the other thread but i don't know how to do it so i'll just write a few reason as to why ogerpon wellspring and roaring moon are not broken.

now, lets start with roaring moon. Roaring Moon is the biggest skill check in this generation. It can easily win against unprepared teams and bad players, however it really only have one set and can be beaten easily just by using commonly used pokemon. Roaring moon's main strength as a sweeper is with the right move and coverage, it can easily beat almost everything, brick break for kingambit, earthquake for bulky fire and steels, taunt for stall, and sometimes even random tera blast for matchup fishing. However, If it doesn't have the right move, it will at most knock off 1-2 pokemon, and maybe kill something, but you can just revenge kill it. If it doesnt have eq or brick break, go gambit and iron head it or garg and salt cure it, if it doesnt have taunt, go skarmory and just iron defense on it, there are even mons that can check/counter roaring moon 100% of the time like dondozo, gliscor and landorus-t even forcing it to tera. Roaring moon is also a tera hog, its typing defensive sucks againts a lot of defensive pokemon being weak to fighting and fairy, which forces you to turn flying every time you want to sweep, and this assumes you even have the right move to win. Even if you have all of that, you still have to worry about opposing tera, since theres really only one way to run roaring moon, everyone knows what it does and how to beat it, so if they see a roaring moon vs kingambit, they will know to check for eq or brick break by switching out to a defensive wall, then come back to revenge kill, or just terastalize to flying and kill it before moon can do anything. Amazing as this pokemon look, and the potential it has, it can still be easily beaten by some of the most common pokemon and good building disciplines (good defensive backbone, revenge killers, offensive synergy). its really no more anoyying than volcarona, iron valiant, kingambit or hatterene which has a bigger variety of sets and similar effectiveness. Remember, this pokemon was UU for a time, and in that meta pokemon like skarmory didnt even exist, yes it did get knock off but people are overstating how much of a buff it is. if you have a decent team, and know how to play around roaring moon, you're never going to lose to this more than you would lose to any other sweeper in the game. It has great usage stats on both SPL and on ladder because of how consistent of a sweeper it is on HO, but it has little variety in its set and any decently built team will have a way to beat it. If you don't, please build a better team, you will lose to it sometimes of course but please fix it.

Ogerpon wellspring is an even bigger head scratcher, its arguably worse than it was in pre-indigo disk with the abundance of dragon, and a rise of zamazenta and rillaboom post archaludon. I mostly see it on BO and HO with pokemon like kingambit, fast lando-t and roaring moon. It is one of the most dominant style of teams right now considering how well they synergize with eachother, but its not so dominant that it requires perfect play and counters to win. The main complain is coming from its coverage of Grass/Water/Fairy and with SD, it becomes almost unstoppable, but it needs a lot of support for it to work well. It has alright speed, and alright bulk, its easily revenge killed by some of the most common threats in dragapult, and it effectively doesnt have an item so hazards absolutely decimates it. It has a larger variety of sets than roaring moon but it also has an even bigger pool of counters. I'm not saying that ogerpon wellspring is a bad pokemon or anything, but from what pokemon we have it doesnt really stand out as overpowered, even stuff its supposed to beat like volcarona, garganacl, gliscor often carry tera that beats ogerpon without sabotaging its usefulness, it can be easily outsped and revenge killed by the dragons, and even stuff like iron moth, tornadus and iron valiant after a bit of chip. The rise of zamazenta and rillaboom i've mentioned before also heavily hindered its usefulness, since ogerpon gets turned into set up opportunity by zama and just dies to rillaboom, these teams often carry hawlucha too which destroys ogerpon. I've p much tried out every team style on ladder recently and i havent really struggled THAT much againts it, most teams have outs and it often comes down to whether or not you can outplay the opponent or not, which stands true with every pokemon. It has great defensive utility againts water, but with the lack of boots/item, bad match up vs tornadus slowking-g and the dragons, and its above average speed, its really not that hard to revenge kill or even just out maneuver it.

I saw some people clamoring for a raging bolt, gliscor and volcarona ban, i disagree with those as well but don't really have many thoughts on it and they dont seem to have as much support as the two i mentioned above.
Agree with the claims about waterpon, didn't understand why it was considered banworthy all of a sudden. Great mon but has limitations.
However, Roaring Moon I think is broken because only really dondozo, skarm and corv can take it on and even then it will lose its item which is bad for it. Roaring moon only needs one turn of set-up to go crazy, as while it sometimes it can be a tera hog, it is most likely using it to beat the one faster mon than it. Iron valiant may outspeed it but with tera flying it can defeat it. Skarmory may be able to iron defense up, but it has to stay at full health otherwise it is dying to two knock offs, with the first doing 70% max at +1, which again it is very easy to atain a boost on with common mons it threatens. It is also not frail in the slightest, as weavile ice shard is only a 2hit ko. And finally, while it is predictable, that is alright due to its insane power. It really only needs e-quake as a coverage move as while it may lose more to stall, it can at least knock off a dondozo, which is still big for the team. Something like gliscor is 2hit ko'd by +1 tera flying acrobatics, which does not make it a counter. Overall, roaring moon may on paper seem like it is alright, but it in practice very easy to run away with the game due to its insane power and great defenses/progress making.
 
Agree, the only reason would be corv/skarm and air balloon ghold/heatran, both of which I would rather hit with power gem into another power gem or an earth power.
Also isn't it kinda crazy that a mon with 130 attacking stat is not used for attacking sets. If it didn't get toxic debris, not only would it not likely be OU, it would also mostly use offensive sets. Kinda reminds us how much an ability can change how a mon is changed.
Glimmora would be running rock polish Meteor beam and scarf and specs instead.,
 

Mimikyu Stardust

Loli Kami Requiem~☆
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UPL Champion
Roaring Moon I think is broken because only really dondozo, skarm and corv can take it on and even then it will lose its item which is bad for it. Roaring moon only needs one turn of set-up to go crazy, as while it sometimes it can be a tera hog, it is most likely using it to beat the one faster mon than it. Iron valiant may outspeed it but with tera flying it can defeat it. Skarmory may be able to iron defense up, but it has to stay at full health otherwise it is dying to two knock offs, with the first doing 70% max at +1, which again it is very easy to atain a boost on with common mons it threatens. It is also not frail in the slightest, as weavile ice shard is only a 2hit ko. And finally, while it is predictable, that is alright due to its insane power. It really only needs e-quake as a coverage move as while it may lose more to stall, it can at least knock off a dondozo, which is still big for the team. Something like gliscor is 2hit ko'd by +1 tera flying acrobatics, which does not make it a counter.
roaring moon didn't have knock off pre-DLC and people beat it before by hitting it as it sets up then going into priority / a 'mon that tanks the hit. the knock off buff doesn't change this major flaw roaring moon had pre-DLC. it is not an easy pokemon to set-up safely so not sure why you think weavile revenge killing roaring moon isn't a common occurence. that's what i mean by skill check. but if you'd like me to elaborate roaring moon has much more counter-play than what you listed.

on balance / bulky offense teams:

weavile - ice shard
landorus-t - rocky helmet pivot
sticky barb clef - beats all the sets, actually has use for other 'mons like booster tusk val boulder and good synergy with knock support
kingambit - walls taunt sets, air balloon checks earthquake variants
ting-lu - whirlwind beats non taunt sets. the offensive ting-lu sets just straight up beat it which are popular, stuff like stone edge and payback which we see in SPL
dragonite - multiscale, extreme speed
hatterene - tanks even +1 tera acro, nuzzles, and draining kiss
garganacl - beats non eq sets, and with tera, you beat every set
gliscor - can toxic, only fears taunt, however on stall teams gliscor often runs poison jab or sd to alleviate this weakness
zamazenta - turns roaring moon into set up fodder, can tera to beat acro sets
dondozo - you mentioned this, yes it will lose its boots in the process but i don't find that a bad thing. i find the unaware 'mons in SV uninteractive with their insane stats. i think it's fair to lose your boots to a stationary HO 'mon but we can agree to disagree there.
skarmory - see above, only loses if they have both taunt AND use tera-flying early, any well-built team shouldn't have this as their sole moon answer
corviknight - see above, can even do rocky helmet + u-turn into priority 'mon of your choice to not give up momentum
tera-great tusk
tera-fairy skeledirge - run alluring voice commonly, wisp still threatens also
zapdos - rare, but it's picking up in usage. CTC made a good zapdos team which won in spl yesterday. first arch but with a possible gouging ban too it'll be used more, zapdos is a pokemon that improves with bans.
toxic spikes - good into roaring moon teams, the only absorber offense has is glimmora a suicide lead and iron moth which is UU
cinderace - sucker punch revenge kills once you force it to tera, you can even wisp it

on offense teams you not only have some of the pokemon i mentioned above but also:

iron boulder
scarf meowscarada
scarf darkrai - you can go hard and if they dragon dance, trick. if they attack then chip.
focus sash dragapult
focus sash darkrai
raging bolt - only dies to earthquake, revenges post-tera
iron treads - same as raging bolt, does a lot with ice spinner
hawlucha terrain
^ rillaboom with tera glide does a ton

weather teams:
sun - lilligant, sun up means acrobatics is 55bp
rain - raging bolt checks non-earthquake, revenge kills a tera'd version. barraskewda is faster.
sand - tyranitar walls taunt sets, excadrill is faster

then you have stall and i know a lot of stall players and they don't find roaring moon that hard to beat compared to something like gholdengo

these are just revenge killers and checks, ingame you can easily make plays and doubles with mons like dragapult, speed iron val or zama, and even lure roaring moon with stuff like play rough + trailblaze ogerpon

these are all good pokemon, you are not using bad stuff. but here are some lesser used pokemon you can try:

quick attack band dragapult - made an appearance in SPL, can work in dire situations
scizor - rare SD sweeper thats largely outclassed by gambit, but still has a niche
physdef weezing (both forms) - Storm Zone popularized it on ladder, unless you let moon get +3 its not gonna win vs weezings
alolan ninetales - you tank its hits with snow + veil and you can easily revenge kill with freeze dry or foul play, or even encore it to dragon dance
comfey - hellom popularized it in SPL, triage + grassy seed do be scary
Mandibuzz - very low usage but has peaked ladder twice this week in the hands of Omari P, it takes 0 from roaring moon and revenge kills with foul play
Talonflame - underused stall mons, its faster than moon and can burn it

if i mention more things it would probably be considered spam, these pokemon can beat roaring moon with ease, and if you take it into practice, even if you only have checks like lando-t + dragonite on a team, you seriously feel how easy it is to beat roaring moon. i'm not saying its a bad mon, theres a reason its top 10 usage on ladder and spl, but it is incredibly overrated considering how easy it is to fend off againts it.
 
(Originally meant for Views from the Council but the thread is closing soon and don't want my post to drown)

Hi everyone after 2 months of DLC 2 i feel the meta has developed into something great and it has been the most fun and balanced it has been for a while, however reading some of the discourse especially in the more recent post from Views from the council i cant wrap my head around some of the complained mon and have to ask.

why are people saying roaring moon and ogerpon wellspring broken? i don't see much of a valid reason in practice, in fact i would probably put dragapult and kingambit higher on the "Broken" scale, and i would be crazy to say those 2 pokemon are banworthy/bad for the meta.

there is one pokemon i didnt mention that i would be fine with a suspect, gouging fire is the closest thing to broken, and yea, its set up sweeping set can sometimes feel impossible to beat without something like dondozo, especially if it opts for tera poison or tera ghost and breaking swipe, it is probably the best anti-BO mon out there beating things like gliscor zamazenta and terastalized kingambit with ease, but it really is only that set thats broken. its booster energy set can be much more easily revenge killed with things like lando and great tusk, and the choice band set under sun is just a physical walking wake that is slower which can be beaten p much the same way one would try and beat walking wake. Personally i think this pokemon is fine, i would vote do not ban if it get suspect tested but i can see the reason as to why people find it BS (hell even Vert does) and might change my mind in the future.

I wanted to quote the people making post on these 2 pokemon from the other thread but i don't know how to do it so i'll just write a few reason as to why ogerpon wellspring and roaring moon are not broken.

now, lets start with roaring moon. Roaring Moon is the biggest skill check in this generation. It can easily win against unprepared teams and bad players, however it really only have one set and can be beaten easily just by using commonly used pokemon. Roaring moon's main strength as a sweeper is with the right move and coverage, it can easily beat almost everything, brick break for kingambit, earthquake for bulky fire and steels, taunt for stall, and sometimes even random tera blast for matchup fishing. However, If it doesn't have the right move, it will at most knock off 1-2 pokemon, and maybe kill something, but you can just revenge kill it. If it doesnt have eq or brick break, go gambit and iron head it or garg and salt cure it, if it doesnt have taunt, go skarmory and just iron defense on it, there are even mons that can check/counter roaring moon 100% of the time like dondozo, gliscor and landorus-t even forcing it to tera. Roaring moon is also a tera hog, its typing defensive sucks againts a lot of defensive pokemon being weak to fighting and fairy, which forces you to turn flying every time you want to sweep, and this assumes you even have the right move to win. Even if you have all of that, you still have to worry about opposing tera, since theres really only one way to run roaring moon, everyone knows what it does and how to beat it, so if they see a roaring moon vs kingambit, they will know to check for eq or brick break by switching out to a defensive wall, then come back to revenge kill, or just terastalize to flying and kill it before moon can do anything. Amazing as this pokemon look, and the potential it has, it can still be easily beaten by some of the most common pokemon and good building disciplines (good defensive backbone, revenge killers, offensive synergy). its really no more anoyying than volcarona, iron valiant, kingambit or hatterene which has a bigger variety of sets and similar effectiveness. Remember, this pokemon was UU for a time, and in that meta pokemon like skarmory didnt even exist, yes it did get knock off but people are overstating how much of a buff it is. if you have a decent team, and know how to play around roaring moon, you're never going to lose to this more than you would lose to any other sweeper in the game. It has great usage stats on both SPL and on ladder because of how consistent of a sweeper it is on HO, but it has little variety in its set and any decently built team will have a way to beat it. If you don't, please build a better team, you will lose to it sometimes of course but please fix it.

Ogerpon wellspring is an even bigger head scratcher, its arguably worse than it was in pre-indigo disk with the abundance of dragon, and a rise of zamazenta and rillaboom post archaludon. I mostly see it on BO and HO with pokemon like kingambit, fast lando-t and roaring moon. It is one of the most dominant style of teams right now considering how well they synergize with eachother, but its not so dominant that it requires perfect play and counters to win. The main complain is coming from its coverage of Grass/Water/Fairy and with SD, it becomes almost unstoppable, but it needs a lot of support for it to work well. It has alright speed, and alright bulk, its easily revenge killed by some of the most common threats in dragapult, and it effectively doesnt have an item so hazards absolutely decimates it. It has a larger variety of sets than roaring moon but it also has an even bigger pool of counters. I'm not saying that ogerpon wellspring is a bad pokemon or anything, but from what pokemon we have it doesnt really stand out as overpowered, even stuff its supposed to beat like volcarona, garganacl, gliscor often carry tera that beats ogerpon without sabotaging its usefulness, it can be easily outsped and revenge killed by the dragons, and even stuff like iron moth, tornadus and iron valiant after a bit of chip. The rise of zamazenta and rillaboom i've mentioned before also heavily hindered its usefulness, since ogerpon gets turned into set up opportunity by zama and just dies to rillaboom, these teams often carry hawlucha too which destroys ogerpon. I've p much tried out every team style on ladder recently and i havent really struggled THAT much againts it, most teams have outs and it often comes down to whether or not you can outplay the opponent or not, which stands true with every pokemon. It has great defensive utility againts water, but with the lack of boots/item, bad match up vs tornadus slowking-g and the dragons, and its above average speed, its really not that hard to revenge kill or even just out maneuver it.

I saw some people clamoring for a raging bolt, gliscor and volcarona ban, i disagree with those as well but don't really have many thoughts on it and they dont seem to have as much support as the two i mentioned above.
There could legitimately be an argument made for Dragapult being too much to deal with given its speed tier and versatility. A handful of other players I've talked to find it to be a bit much to handle. Kingambit too, considering how many people complain about that mon daily, but despite its contraversial status, its also a Pokemon a lot of players love, myself included. If another suspect happened on Gambit, I'm not sure if I would vote ban.

I'm inclined to agree with your points on Roaring Moon. I have yet to be swept by this Pokemon. Its moreso that its too good of an enabler for Kingambit, but of the perceived "broken" Pokemon, it is the one I am most 50 / 50 on whether it is broken or not. Nonetheless, I don't find it to be a particularly positive presence in the metagame either.

On Woger, I disagree with your assessment somewhat. Yes, against Bulky Offense or HO teams with mons like Zama, Rillaboom, etc. Woger isn't that bad. However, balance teams have no real switch-ins to Woger. Typically they are forced to expend Tera on either Gliscor, Skarmory, or maybe Ting-Lu to beat it, which isn't great since that has other consequences, specifically on Gliscor / Skarmory now becoming vulnerable to Spikes. Positioning other Pokemon like Meow or Dragapult to be in on W!Oger is also an option, but that is risky if, say, your Ting-Lu is currenlty in on Raging Bolt and instead of switching, they go for Draco for chip. I am inclined to agree that hazards do limit it greatly, but the current state of hazards is IMO, extremely bad, and needs to be addressed as well.

I was just in a match that actually sorta shows some of the above concepts, though it isn't the best example, as it is not too high on the ladder.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2067831218

Here, the opponent pretty much had no counterplay to Taunt Woger, which was able to chain KO after KO with Cudgel. The Gliscor was forced to Tera, which didn't end up helping them all that much since they couldn't deal damage to Woger. Setting up hazards was very difficult for the opponent due to the combined pressure of Taunt Lando-T and Ogerpon-W + Hatterene.

I am inclined to agree that Woger was better pre-indigo disk, but it was also IMO a healthier presence then due to keeping some big threats like Manaphy in check with Encore. Now, with Manaphy's usage completely down, I don't think W!Oger's services are as neccessary.
 
roaring moon didn't have knock off pre-DLC and people beat it before by hitting it as it sets up then going into priority / a 'mon that tanks the hit. the knock off buff doesn't change this major flaw roaring moon had pre-DLC. it is not an easy pokemon to set-up safely so not sure why you think weavile revenge killing roaring moon isn't a common occurence. that's what i mean by skill check. but if you'd like me to elaborate roaring moon has much more counter-play than what you listed.

on balance / bulky offense teams:

weavile - ice shard
landorus-t - rocky helmet pivot
sticky barb clef - beats all the sets, actually has use for other 'mons like booster tusk val boulder and good synergy with knock support
kingambit - walls taunt sets, air balloon checks earthquake variants
ting-lu - whirlwind beats non taunt sets. the offensive ting-lu sets just straight up beat it which are popular, stuff like stone edge and payback which we see in SPL
dragonite - multiscale, extreme speed
hatterene - tanks even +1 tera acro, nuzzles, and draining kiss
garganacl - beats non eq sets, and with tera, you beat every set
gliscor - can toxic, only fears taunt, however on stall teams gliscor often runs poison jab or sd to alleviate this weakness
zamazenta - turns roaring moon into set up fodder, can tera to beat acro sets
dondozo - you mentioned this, yes it will lose its boots in the process but i don't find that a bad thing. i find the unaware 'mons in SV uninteractive with their insane stats. i think it's fair to lose your boots to a stationary HO 'mon but we can agree to disagree there.
skarmory - see above, only loses if they have both taunt AND use tera-flying early, any well-built team shouldn't have this as their sole moon answer
corviknight - see above, can even do rocky helmet + u-turn into priority 'mon of your choice to not give up momentum
tera-great tusk
tera-fairy skeledirge - run alluring voice commonly, wisp still threatens also
zapdos - rare, but it's picking up in usage. CTC made a good zapdos team which won in spl yesterday. first arch but with a possible gouging ban too it'll be used more, zapdos is a pokemon that improves with bans.
toxic spikes - good into roaring moon teams, the only absorber offense has is glimmora a suicide lead and iron moth which is UU
cinderace - sucker punch revenge kills once you force it to tera, you can even wisp it

on offense teams you not only have some of the pokemon i mentioned above but also:

iron boulder
scarf meowscarada
scarf darkrai - you can go hard and if they dragon dance, trick. if they attack then chip.
focus sash dragapult
focus sash darkrai
raging bolt - only dies to earthquake, revenges post-tera
iron treads - same as raging bolt, does a lot with ice spinner
hawlucha terrain
^ rillaboom with tera glide does a ton

weather teams:
sun - lilligant, sun up means acrobatics is 55bp
rain - raging bolt checks non-earthquake, revenge kills a tera'd version. barraskewda is faster.
sand - tyranitar walls taunt sets, excadrill is faster

then you have stall and i know a lot of stall players and they don't find roaring moon that hard to beat compared to something like gholdengo

these are just revenge killers and checks, ingame you can easily make plays and doubles with mons like dragapult, speed iron val or zama, and even lure roaring moon with stuff like play rough + trailblaze ogerpon

these are all good pokemon, you are not using bad stuff. but here are some lesser used pokemon you can try:

quick attack band dragapult - made an appearance in SPL, can work in dire situations
scizor - rare SD sweeper thats largely outclassed by gambit, but still has a niche
physdef weezing (both forms) - Storm Zone popularized it on ladder, unless you let moon get +3 its not gonna win vs weezings
alolan ninetales - you tank its hits with snow + veil and you can easily revenge kill with freeze dry or foul play, or even encore it to dragon dance
comfey - hellom popularized it in SPL, triage + grassy seed do be scary
Mandibuzz - very low usage but has peaked ladder twice this week in the hands of Omari P, it takes 0 from roaring moon and revenge kills with foul play
Talonflame - underused stall mons, its faster than moon and can burn it

if i mention more things it would probably be considered spam, these pokemon can beat roaring moon with ease, and if you take it into practice, even if you only have checks like lando-t + dragonite on a team, you seriously feel how easy it is to beat roaring moon. i'm not saying its a bad mon, theres a reason its top 10 usage on ladder and spl, but it is incredibly overrated considering how easy it is to fend off againts it.
Okay, I'll go through the mons you listed.
Weavile - Ice shard does 50% max, 75% max if it tera ices. This is a great revenge killing tool for moon but it also can't switch into too well as a +1 knock does 80% minimum.
Lando-T - Does better than I expected, but it still has to be kept in good health as it will take 80% max from a knock. Means it can't switch into a moon attack, so there is that.
Clefable - Again, does better than expected, but still gets 2 hit ko'd by e-quake, while moon can tera on a moonblast and take minimal damage.
Kingambit - It does wall taunt sets, but I believe those to be a lot worse than e-quake variants. If it switches into an attack, than air balloon sets will fail. It doesn't even get ko'd by the combo of iron head and sucker punch, as you will be at 5% if you account for high rolls if you are at full health. So some caution is needed.
Ting-Lu- Takes 70% from a tera flying +1 acrobatics. Even still, moon can knock off to make sure ting-lu does not get any recovery, which for Ting is devastating and makes it a lot more vulnerable to chip.
Dragonite - Still takes 60% max from a knock off, while tera normal extreme speed max does 65%. If dragonite is positioned well, then it does beat it, but it has to tera in order to do so.
Hatterene - Dies from +1 tera flying acro sometimes, so isn't safe. It can threaten moon, but it is more dicey as it will be guarenteed to take knock off if the moon player decides not to tera, which means it loses lefties recovery.
Garganacl - As you said, is beaten by e-quake sets, but teraing garg early is not the best. It also has to be in pristine shape to take a e-quake and knock off if it decides to tera, the combo ko's outright otherwise.
Gliscor - Is put in a really difficult position as while it can off a toxic, it fears tera flying acro as that 2hit kos it. Poison jab does pitiful damage to moon.
Zamazenta - Has to tera in order to beat it, and can lose to +1 tera flying acro if it has even a little bit of chip.
Dondozo - Dondozo losing its boots can be problematic depending on the team. If moon is the main physical attacker, then it is not that big of a deal. However, if the team moon is on has lots of physical threats for dondozo to deal with, this can get messy as spikes damage can rack up.
Skarm/Corv - Lose if they switch into knock, but can be alright. Both will lose rocky helmet to deal with physical threats easier, so I say a mon crippling its counter is great.
Skeledirge - Is forced to tera, as otherwise it loses. I don't consider tera'ing to beat a mon a 'counter' persay because that is a massive commitment cost, but if you do then sure, it beats moon.
Zapdos - Potentially has a chance to get ohko'd by +1 moon knock off 12.5% of the time, so cannot take any chip. Do agree that zapdos is better with bans.
Toxic spikes - Yes, they beat moon, but toxic spikes are rare as only glimmora is a common enough mon to put them down.
Cinderace - Has to wait for moon to tera and even then, it has to be at 50% health for it to ko. Also, how is cinderace getting a wisp off?

Now onto offensive mons.
Iron boulder - Has to play 50/50 with moon, as it has to predict whether it will tera, as getting it wrong will result in it getting ko'd. This doesn't occur when moon is 50% health, but a moon player will make sure it stays at relatively good health.
Scarf Meow- Okay, it beats it if it doesn't switch into knock/acro. Then yes, it beats it. I'll give you that one.
Scarf darkrai - Focus blast doesn't even ohko it, so moon has to have chip. Trick can be devastating, but darkrai has to sack itself in order to do that.
Focus sash Dragapult - If hazards are not on its side, then it wins. If hazards are, it loses HARD. I don't consider a mon a counter if it can lose due to something simple like one layer of spikes.
Focus sash Darkrai - See above with Dragapult, except even worse because it has to rely on focus miss.
Raging bolt - Has to tera in order to survive, so I consider that a win as post tera bolt is much easier to deal with.
Iron treads - As you said, it does a lot of damage with ice spinner, but it still will be ko'd by e-quake, so it has to sack itself to beat it.
Hawlucha - Give you that one. Beats Moon, so there is that.... Until moon tera's and ko's it with tera flying acro.
Rillaboom - Has to tera in order to deal meaningful damage, but stil gets ko'd by acro. Means that your opponent most likely doesn't have priority.

Weather Teams
Sun/Rain - Yes, moon does not beat these to well. However, it still can deal with something like gouging decently well, so even in a bad matchup it can have value.
Sand - Tyranitar loses to e-quake variants, while excadrill has to hope for iron head flinches to win. Moon may be basically dead, but koing the dangerous sand sweeper is a win in my book.

Now onto the more niche options
Quick attack dragapult - What is with the tera normal mons these days? This and tera normal body slam dondozo are wild. I'll give you this mon just on sheer creativity, might try it out for myself.
Scizor - As you said, niche, but does beat it if it doesn't come in on a knock off.
Alolan Ninetales - Can actually get ko'd by +1 tera flying acro, so it can lose. Definetely a better mon into moon.
Comfey - Niche, but yeah, if moon doesn't tera. Then it can 2hit ko comfey while not being threatened in return.
Mandibuzz - Give you this one, beats it but as you said it is low usage.
Talonflame - Is faster if moon is not at +1, which doesn't happen often as moon usually dd's when it comes in. Is then threatened by knock off.

Yes, there are more mons that counter moon then I said, I'll give you that, but most that you provided have to either 1. Be in pristine health or 2. Not switch in to a Moon attack. This means that most likely, it will still pick up a ko. Again, lots of these should beat it on paper but they in practice do not. Now, you may be thinking "But Heatranator, most of these reasonings are based on +1 calcs, that won't be the case." That is wrong, moon can easily get to +1 as it threatens a lot of common mons such as ghold and tusk extremely hard.
Oh, these are also for jolly moon, if you go adamant, then it is even better into a lot of these mons like skarm.
 
I have been, as the kids would say, cooking as of late and I've thought of this.

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Taunt

So basically the idea is to outspeed non-Scarf max Spe Meowscarada, have some extra bulk and hit like a truck. It barely OHKOs the standard RBolt set. I'd appreciate any and all input on why this won't work and why it is in fact Landover.
 
Between toxic debris + good spatk + every hazard in singles and mortal spin being a spread move for some reason, I'm convinced that glimmora was designed in a lab by Game Freak to be the single most annoying pokemon in existence no matter the format

Oh yeah did you know Mortal Spin is a spread move! I didn't! Not until like 3 days ago!
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
roaring moon didn't have knock off pre-DLC and people beat it before by hitting it as it sets up then going into priority / a 'mon that tanks the hit. the knock off buff doesn't change this major flaw roaring moon had pre-DLC. it is not an easy pokemon to set-up safely so not sure why you think weavile revenge killing roaring moon isn't a common occurence. that's what i mean by skill check. but if you'd like me to elaborate roaring moon has much more counter-play than what you listed.

on balance / bulky offense teams:

weavile - ice shard
landorus-t - rocky helmet pivot
sticky barb clef - beats all the sets, actually has use for other 'mons like booster tusk val boulder and good synergy with knock support
kingambit - walls taunt sets, air balloon checks earthquake variants
ting-lu - whirlwind beats non taunt sets. the offensive ting-lu sets just straight up beat it which are popular, stuff like stone edge and payback which we see in SPL
dragonite - multiscale, extreme speed
hatterene - tanks even +1 tera acro, nuzzles, and draining kiss
garganacl - beats non eq sets, and with tera, you beat every set
gliscor - can toxic, only fears taunt, however on stall teams gliscor often runs poison jab or sd to alleviate this weakness
zamazenta - turns roaring moon into set up fodder, can tera to beat acro sets
dondozo - you mentioned this, yes it will lose its boots in the process but i don't find that a bad thing. i find the unaware 'mons in SV uninteractive with their insane stats. i think it's fair to lose your boots to a stationary HO 'mon but we can agree to disagree there.
skarmory - see above, only loses if they have both taunt AND use tera-flying early, any well-built team shouldn't have this as their sole moon answer
corviknight - see above, can even do rocky helmet + u-turn into priority 'mon of your choice to not give up momentum
tera-great tusk
tera-fairy skeledirge - run alluring voice commonly, wisp still threatens also
zapdos - rare, but it's picking up in usage. CTC made a good zapdos team which won in spl yesterday. first arch but with a possible gouging ban too it'll be used more, zapdos is a pokemon that improves with bans.
toxic spikes - good into roaring moon teams, the only absorber offense has is glimmora a suicide lead and iron moth which is UU
cinderace - sucker punch revenge kills once you force it to tera, you can even wisp it

on offense teams you not only have some of the pokemon i mentioned above but also:

iron boulder
scarf meowscarada
scarf darkrai - you can go hard and if they dragon dance, trick. if they attack then chip.
focus sash dragapult
focus sash darkrai
raging bolt - only dies to earthquake, revenges post-tera
iron treads - same as raging bolt, does a lot with ice spinner
hawlucha terrain
^ rillaboom with tera glide does a ton

weather teams:
sun - lilligant, sun up means acrobatics is 55bp
rain - raging bolt checks non-earthquake, revenge kills a tera'd version. barraskewda is faster.
sand - tyranitar walls taunt sets, excadrill is faster

then you have stall and i know a lot of stall players and they don't find roaring moon that hard to beat compared to something like gholdengo

these are just revenge killers and checks, ingame you can easily make plays and doubles with mons like dragapult, speed iron val or zama, and even lure roaring moon with stuff like play rough + trailblaze ogerpon

these are all good pokemon, you are not using bad stuff. but here are some lesser used pokemon you can try:

quick attack band dragapult - made an appearance in SPL, can work in dire situations
scizor - rare SD sweeper thats largely outclassed by gambit, but still has a niche
physdef weezing (both forms) - Storm Zone popularized it on ladder, unless you let moon get +3 its not gonna win vs weezings
alolan ninetales - you tank its hits with snow + veil and you can easily revenge kill with freeze dry or foul play, or even encore it to dragon dance
comfey - hellom popularized it in SPL, triage + grassy seed do be scary
Mandibuzz - very low usage but has peaked ladder twice this week in the hands of Omari P, it takes 0 from roaring moon and revenge kills with foul play
Talonflame - underused stall mons, its faster than moon and can burn it

if i mention more things it would probably be considered spam, these pokemon can beat roaring moon with ease, and if you take it into practice, even if you only have checks like lando-t + dragonite on a team, you seriously feel how easy it is to beat roaring moon. i'm not saying its a bad mon, theres a reason its top 10 usage on ladder and spl, but it is incredibly overrated considering how easy it is to fend off againts it.
252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 220-260 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 282-334 (84.4 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 286-337 (89.9 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 331-390 (86.1 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Nice checks Mimi.

Most of the other checks are valid, but I wouldn’t really use the 3 Tera mons and 2 Sash mons as examples since 2 of them need to have rocks off at all times and only really splashable on offense and 3 of them are only available if you haven’t burnt Tera.

Also no Mimi, Offensive Ting-Lu is not that common. Off the current usage statistics of SPL, Payback which signifies Offensive Ting-Lu usage, was only seen a few times, 2 from week 6, and Stone Edge hasn’t been seen once.
 
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 282-334 (84.4 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
TBF, he does have levitate and it IS better into lando and tusk that way too.
Worse against almost anything else, but hey, small victories and probably still a better answer than quick attack dragapult LMAO.
 
I'm cooking some meal with :latios:, and found pivot set with Future Sight very interesting.

Latios @ Soul Dew / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Fairy / Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Future Sight
- Recover / Aura Sphere / Tera Blast / Whatever you need
- Flip Turn

I'm using this set alongside CB Tyranitar on a sand team, and it works fantastic, at it gives this kind of teams very valuable assets like a Ground immunity, a Fighting check, a secondary Fire/Water resist and a decent speed tier. Latios scares away many Tyranitar checks, the most important being Great Tusk, so, you can set up FS and then, pivot out in an incoming check like G-Slowking to allow Tyranitar to spam its brutally strong Knock Off and put a lof of pressure on defensive cores. Also, this can put a lot of presure on Kingambit if being the only Dark type of opposing team, as it has to decide if it wants to block the FS or Tera to block Tyranitar's EQ/Low Kick, meaning it will be taking major damage. This pair forces a lot of damage or straight out KO many of Excadrill counters like metal birds, Gliscor and Tusk, allowing it to clean lategame. You can drop Recover for another coverage move like Aura Sphere or Tera Blast with Tera Fairy, especially if you pair it with Wish support (I'm running a fully def Alomomola in this team). As a side note, you can use Draco Meteor and then set up FS, as the SpA drop won't count in the damage dealt.
Cool set and cool mon, not the best in the meta, but still has its merits with the addition of Flip Turn to its movepool, allowing it to function as an offensive pivot with a good set of resistances/bulk.

Low quality replay
Against stall
That is some crazy cooking good shit. Future sight ignoring Draco drops is pretty cool I have to try this out, especially since it's a good fit on sand as you say. Aside from Ttar and Drill, what other partners have you been using?
 
I'm cooking some meal with :latios:, and found pivot set with Future Sight very interesting.

Latios @ Soul Dew / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Fairy / Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Future Sight
- Recover / Aura Sphere / Tera Blast / Whatever you need
- Flip Turn

I'm using this set alongside CB Tyranitar on a sand team, and it works fantastic, at it gives this kind of teams very valuable assets like a Ground immunity, a Fighting check, a secondary Fire/Water resist and a decent speed tier. Latios scares away many Tyranitar checks, the most important being Great Tusk, so, you can set up FS and then, pivot out in an incoming check like G-Slowking to allow Tyranitar to spam its brutally strong Knock Off and put a lof of pressure on defensive cores. Also, this can put a lot of presure on Kingambit if being the only Dark type of opposing team, as it has to decide if it wants to block the FS or Tera to block Tyranitar's EQ/Low Kick, meaning it will be taking major damage. This pair forces a lot of damage or straight out KO many of Excadrill counters like metal birds, Gliscor and Tusk, allowing it to clean lategame. You can drop Recover for another coverage move like Aura Sphere or Tera Blast with Tera Fairy, especially if you pair it with Wish support (I'm running a fully def Alomomola in this team). As a side note, you can use Draco Meteor and then set up FS, as the SpA drop won't count in the damage dealt.
Cool set and cool mon, not the best in the meta, but still has its merits with the addition of Flip Turn to its movepool, allowing it to function as an offensive pivot with a good set of resistances/bulk.

Low quality replay
Against stall
I’ve used this set too right when the mon was released. I ended up running a little bulk on it because future sight not dealing immediate damage means you’re often gonna tank a hit. And then after a while I found myself wondering why I wasn’t running glowking. But I think it has some merit on the right team
 

senorlopez

Formerly Ricardo [old]
With tera seemingly cast aside as the problematic issue for a suitable portion of players - I would be interested in an OM where tera would be available for another generation. It would be interesting to see if there was any power surge and nuances that that change would bring and if there would be any lessons that could be learned. Beats the alternative of a teraless gen 9 ladder to see the impact of tera which will never happen.
 

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