Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

Sorted for your viewing information, who do y'all think the last mon is? (list is not exhaustive, obviously)
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Id say its deoxys-s. Not too many people here consider it an issue but it scored fairly high last survey and I think the council wants to double check its score this month. Which in my opinion would be a fair thing to do, just to confirm. There's only really 20-25 people frequently posting on this main forum its not a true indication of metagame sentiment.
 
Pokemon Z did get announced, even if its legends Z-A, which, whatever. And i dunno fully about the arch contingents still on the ladder, but theyre probably holding up fine.
I know about pokemon legends Z-A (I accidentally got spoiled by it on the forum but not by YouTube notifications, which is the opposite of what usually happens), but finch not only said that they wouldn't be dropping ubers, but also arch is in ubers so you can't play with it.
 

KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
but finch not only said that they wouldn't be dropping ubers, but also arch is in ubers so you can't play with it.
I coulda sworn they banned it in name only, because people were seeing it days after it was banned officially.

Well, if it ain't Arch again, its probably something like Ogerpon Base or something.
 
I coulda sworn they banned it in name only, because people were seeing it days after it was banned officially.

Well, if it ain't Arch again, its probably something like Ogerpon Base or something.
The servers just didn't update yet, that's what happened. Also occured with magearna where for a few days it was still in OU.
The processes usually take a while and can be anywhere from a day to a few.
 
Hey i have a question how Do You play around ogerpon-w? Im not playing OU these times so i'd like to have this info
Faster mons, dragon types, priority moves and hazards. Yes, it has play rough but unless your moon or it hasn't got to +2, which is easy enough to stop it getting, then you should be able to use dragon types to stop it. It also can't boost its speed unlike other boost sweepers, meaning pokemon naturally faster like serperior or booster mons such as valiant work. It also is decently weak to priority such as rillaboom's grassy glide and bolt's thunderclap, though you do have to chip it first. Finally, Waterpon is decently suspectable to hazard damage as it can't hold HDB, so stacking those up will help.
Waterpon is easy enough to play around as long as you don't let it set up, and unlike something like moon, you can always have the option of outrunning it.
 
Hey i have a question how Do You play around ogerpon-w? Im not playing OU these times so i'd like to have this info
:mad:*BONK*
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 316-373 (104.9 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

"I'm immune to hydro steam ill come in on wake every single time" ok buddy nice try

If you're looking for a catch all defensive answer, mandibuzz is probably the safest bet. If you come in on swords dance it only does 70% max with cudgel and you OHKO with foul play. If they crit thats unlucky but odds are 50% you survive the +2 crit and at least trade.
 
i don't think we needed anyone to confirm that lokix won't be on the radar
You are hereby notified to cease and desist any and all further unlawful defamation, slander and/or libel with regards to your actions and/or statements relating to Lokix. In accordance with law, it is illegal to provide a false statement, whether written or oral, of an individual's character and/or reputation, which consist of: 1. Any false statement, pictures or video intended to cause harm or damage another's character and/or reputation; 2. that is communicated to another either in writing or verbally; and 3. which the offending party is aware or should have been aware that such statement, pictures or video was false. THEREFORE, you are hereby requested to immediately cease and desist illegal defamation, slander and/or libel and within 10 business days, return the signed written assurance below affirming that you will refrain from any further acts of defamation, slander and/or libel with regards to my character and/or reputation. Failure to comply with this cease and desist request, and/or return of the signed assurance within the stipulated time, will leave me no other alternative but to pursue all available legal remedies, including but not limited to filing a motion for injunctive relief, monetary damages, filing fees, court costs and/or attorney fees.
Sincerely,
Just A Shroom God
 
With a survey coming up soon and after more than 2 months of Indigo Disk being out, I think it is time to discuss what the meta of Gen 9 OU is like rn and talk about some developments we’ve seen on ladder, SPL, etc. To some, this may not be my most popular write-up, but it is something I want to bring up. So here is…

658Greninja’s Gen 9 OU Meta Analysis

View attachment 609138Chapter 1: SV OU as the Lead MetagameView attachment 609139

A lot of players may not realize it, some do, but SV OU is the most lead centric metagame since DPP. Before I explain why, let me go over a misconception on the definition of a lead.

Often when players hear the term “Lead” the first thing that comes to mind is a suicide lead. Something that gets up rocks and then dies. However I would like to broad everyone’s definition of a lead for a minute. A lead is something you send out first to gain an early advantage. Leads can be organized into these categories.

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Leads that get up hazards and die (i.e suicide leads)

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Leads meant to anti-Lead

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Leads meant to cripple/dent the opposing team as much as possible in a few turns

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Leads meant to reek early momentum

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Leads that can make early progress through hazards and/or Knock, etc

SV OU is a hostile metagame. If you try to cover everything the meta throws at you, it is simply not possible. Instead, teams have been trending towards gaining momentum firsthand and getting into good positions where they can setup their wincons but their opponents can’t. Not every good lead matchup will win you the game. Comebacks are very doable with Tera, but leads gives you the inherent advantage in an offensive metagame.

View attachment 609157Chapter 2: The Tera Skill CeillingView attachment 609158

Terastilization is obviously a big part of SV OU’s identity. It is also the most controversial aspect of its gameplay. Its ability to allow mons like Kingambit or Gholdengo flip matchups has sparked discussion on whether or not it should be allowed. This is not what this is about, it is about how different skill levels play with Tera. In low ladder and even mid ladder, players will use Tera in a reactionary fashion. If they see something is about to sweep them, they Tera. If they click Dragon Dance or Swords Dance, they Tera. If they wanna nuke something, they Tera. However as we go higher in the skill level, we see the true depth of Terastilization, like the Depths of Area Zero.

There is much more decision making and long-term thinking that goes into Tera at the top level. Sure you could Tera Ghost your Specs Dragapult turn 1 to 2HKO their Primarina, but you no longer could use Dragapult to pivot into their Volcarona and you get OHKOd by their +1 Raging Bolt’s Thunderclap, and they could still Tera themselves. What if they Tera Normal their Dragonite?

“Tera Flying with Gambit vs Great Tusk is obviously advantageous, but should I preserve this Tera for another matchup instead of this one premature advantage?”

You may even see players reading their Tera or make midground plays in case they do Tera. Yes, you may not know what Tera it is, but you could recognize the most popular Tera options and why. In the builder, players may even have contingency plans in case they Tera.

The reason many players, including top players oppose a Tera suspect is in their view, Terastilization is a mechanic that promotes metagame knowledge, long-term thinking, and improving teambuilding skills. Gen 8 was critiqued for being too easy and boring, because between Boots Spam, Scald fishing, and Regen Spam, reckless plays mattered much less as Toxapex could go from 10% to 90% in less than a few turns. Gen 9 encourages you to be on your toes. If you play too recklessly or too passively, you’re bound to get punished hard for it. Short-term thinking, especially when it comes to Tera will get you punished at a higher level. This is why even anti-Tera players may cite SV OU as a high skill celling gen.

View attachment 609159Chapter 3: Addressing Meta Shifts (also Spikes)View attachment 609160

One thing people need to realize when basing their complaints is that the metagame is not the same as it was 2 months ago, and so builds that worked during that time become outdated. It isn’t some secret or new thing, this happens all the time in a metagame.

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The Lando for UU meme is dead now as there is a massive resurgence of it despite harsh Ground type competiton.

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Other mons that were overshadowed like Wogerpon, Alomomola, Primarina, Heatran, Dragonite, and Garganacl are now meta staples.

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Iron Boulder which was an HO staple in the beginning of DLC2 might as well not even exist. It sees very little usage in SPL and even ladder. It doesn’t even cross people’s minds these days in the builder. Hell, it might even drop to UU in a few days.

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Boots Spam Spike Stacking Teams are not as good as they were during January. These teams have huge flaws like a lack of raw power, over-reliance on spikes, and bad matchups into stuff like NP Gholdengo without Volcarona, CM Hatt, Primarina, and Wogerpon. Skarm is no longer enough to cover the Gambit mu. One Tera and Jolly nature later and that birb is gone.

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Instead, players are opting for teams that limit the placement or effect of Spikes while having enough offensive power to deal with bulkier builds and offense.

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There is no denying that Spikes are amazing this gen, but they are not so grossly dominant that we should suddenly ban every spike setter under the Sun. Great Tusk more often than not, is enough for hazard control on teams.

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Great Tusk threatens every single spinblocker with a bad time, (Dragapult lesso, but it still doesn’t like losing 80% or dying to Knock) and its matchups into other hazard setters are completely fine. Yes Gliscor can trade Ice Spinner damage and put it on a timer with Toxic, but Gliscor cannot safely switch into Great Tusk. Skarm can repeatedly switch into Tusk as it spins, but Skarm is one of the most easily exploitable mons in the tier. Free turns for Dragapult, Slowking-G, Raging Bolt, Clefable, Primarina, Hatterene, and all the other nasty shit you don’t wanna let in. Ting-Lu could chip Tusk down, but Tusk could 1v1 it with Ice Spinner or Ice Spinner + Knock. Also consider that you are using an amazing mon that can be customized to fit several roles besides Spinning.

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The best current SV OU teams simply don’t give a shit about Spikes or can deal with Spikes. You don’t have to load your team with Tusk + Hatt or Tusk + Corv to be safe vs hazards without having 4-5 mons with Boots. If you’re letting Skarm get three spikes up in one sitting, that’s a skill issue.

Yes, the metagame is in an unbalanced state, but not to the point where one archetype is unviable. Balance, BO, HO, Rain, Sun, and Stall are all viable in the tier. SV OU doesn’t punish you for making bulkier teams. SV OU punishes you for making passive plays and bad teams. It took me some time to realize all this as a builder and a player.

Anyways, let’s get to the fun part. Meta developments.

View attachment 609188Chapter 4: Innovations/Underrated or Cool SetsView attachment 609189
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Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Blaze
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- U-turn
- Tera Blast
- Court Change

One of my favorite techs by the goat Storm Zone himself, Tera Ice Blast Cinderace. Most of the time, Cinderace will invite Gliscor back in and setup the Spikes it removed again. However Tera Ice lets you nuke the absolute shit outta Gliscor on top of hitting other targets like Great Tusk, Lando, Roaring Moon, Raging Bolt, and Dragonite. This set should be explored more.

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Clefable @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Water/Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Moonlight
- Trick/Stealth Rock/Encore
- Thunder Wave

Barb Clef is not a new innovation at all. Its been a thing since forever, but we have seen more usage of it with Knock support to punish Tusk, Gouging Fire, Dragonite, Roaring Moon, Gambit, Gliscor, Garganacl, and more. Some people even ditch Trick to make use of Clef’s other utility moves like Rocks, Wish, and Encore.

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Deoxys-Speed @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dark/Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 164 SpA / 56 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Knock Off
- Ice Beam
- Recover/Superpower

(164 SpA lets Deo-S OHKO standard Wogerpon after 2 Psycho Boosts + Rocks. 56 Spe Timid outruns +1 Tusk. The rest is put into HP and Def to maximize bulk)

Deoxys-Speed is not super common rn, but we have seen a few appearances of it to abuse its Speed and Movepool. AcrOne brought a pretty wack team with Boots Deo-S, U-Turn Gliscor, and Teal Mask Ogerpon against Finch who embraced the Big Stall council allegations. It got off several kills and opened up the Ogerpon with the lucky freeze on Corv.

It got me interested in discussing this specific Deo-S set. It has a couple neat attributes like outrunning +1 Dnite and Dragapult, 1v1ing Glimmora, and Pressure allowing you to PP stall vs fatter builds and other funny scenarios like limiting Tusk’s or Dnite’s Headlong Rush and E-Speed PP. Recover allows Deo-S to stay in the game repeatedly. Deoxys has a mediocre defensive and offensive typing, but it has some nice potential on the right builds.

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Dragapult @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Ghost/Fairy/Steel
EVs: 208 HP / 176 SpA / 124 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dragon Darts/Draco Meteor
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunder Wave

Double Status Pult is an absolute menace vs all styles. We’ve even seen variants with Focus Sash lately, acting similar to how Zam does in BW OU. Though I want to take this opportunity to bring up this EV spread I’ve been running.

208 HP allows Dragapult to avoid a 2HKO from a Tera Water +2 Ivy Cudgel after a burn and an OHKO from +2 Play Rough, also after a burn, with enough speed to outrun Zama’s hitting 385 Speed for Weavile. Even without investment and a negative Attack nature, Darts still do decent damage and its enough to 1v1 non-Tera Dragon Volc. This spread also lets Dragapult survive a Knock Off from offensive Tusk and even a SO boosted Kowtow after a burn.

Dragapult is a mon with lots of versatility and bulkier Pult variants could be something to consider. Its a pretty neat set imo.

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Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Normal
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Roost

Dragonite has seen some further exploration in DLC2 outside of the standard DD sets. CB has seen some usage with heavy hazard removal support. There was also a Boltbeam Dnite set used in this game between some unorthodox-looking teams, but I want to highlight Dragon Tail Dnite that was used in this game. The reason why this looks like a paste for Gen 2 OU is cause I do not know the spread. Phazing is something players are exploring more of recently. Not only to rack up hazard chip, but to deny Booster/setup opportunities. Dnite is a very popular anti-HO pick due to E-Speed and Multiscale, but this set provides extra coverage for HO. It may not be the most optimal thing, but it’s pretty cool to see some set variety coming from this old gen icon.

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Glimmora @ Power Herb
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Ghost/Fairy/Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Beam
- Earth Power
- Dazzling Gleam/Energy Ball

“Wait this isn’t VGC!”

Yes, but this set is fun as hell. Glimmora often just clicks Rocks, maybe clicks Mortal Spin, and dies. Meteor Beam though, smacks the hell out of bulkier builds expecting to be safe only for it to nuke the fuck outta of their Gliscor or Glowking with the strongest Meteor Beam in the entire game. Then you can use your offensive movepool to deal as much dmg as possible before fainting. I feel this is a neat spin on Glimmora and I am interested to see if this set catches on. (inb4 someone tops the ladder and posts a MB Glimm RMT)

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Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 244 HP / 108 Def / 156 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 25 Spe
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Knock Off/Toxic
- Protect

(156 SpD avoids a 2HKO from standard Hex Pult after clicking Protect and avoids an OHKO from +1 Proto Dragon Pulse from Raging Bolt at full. 25 Speed IVs to be slower than opposing Gliscor while outrunning Jolly Gambit)

U-Turn is underrated on Gliscor, it often rarely gets slapped onto it because Gliscor has a big 4MSS. This set has great synergy with Weavile. If Moon comes in, you U-Turn to Weavile and click Shard. If Gliscor comes in, you click U-Turn and bring Weavile or Kyurem in safely since you’re slower.

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Gouging Fire @ Leftovers/Heavy-Duty-Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 240 HP / 72 Atk / 128 Def / 4 SpD / 64 Spe
Impish Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Breaking Swipe
- Dragon Dance
- Morning Sun

Sure, blowing up shit with Choice Band under Sun is devious, but Swipe G-Fire is just pure evil from the corrupted. Showcased in a well-known RMT by spook, this set answers the question, “What if I can DD in front of Gliscor and 1v1 Curse Dozo?”

This is imo the best Gouging Fire set and probably the reason it will eventually get suspected. It is so bulky that after an attack drop from Breaking Swipe, it 1v1s even the strongest of Ground types. While it does have counterplay in Skeledirge, Whirlwind Ting-Lu, and Primarina, but G-Fire’s ability to pick-and-choose what it loses to is part of why it has been considered for a suspect.

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Great Tusk @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
- Earthquake
- Knock Off/Ice Spinner
- Endeavor
- Rapid Spin

Great Tusks’ sets have largely remained the same throughout SV OU’s lifespan. New options like Temper Fire and Supercell Slam have seen some usage for Skarmory and Corv, but they remain uncommon.

Endeavor Tusk with Rocky Helmet was used once by FC in this week’s SPL along with the janky D-Tail Dnite set. He used his Endeavor Tusk in the endgame to put Balloon Gambit in range of E-Speed after Helmet chip, and it payed off. Though a bit gimmicky, it is cool seeing an unorthodox set pay off in an important game.

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Iron Treads @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner
- Megahorn

Megahorn was used by FC in the same game as the Endeavor Tusk and D-Tail Dnite to snipe Wogerpon. Unfortunately it failed to pick up a kill even with chip and Treads payed for it with its life. Cool lure tho.

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Iron Valiant @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Spirit Break
- Shadow Sneak

Atk up Quark Drive is a really cool iVal set brought in this game by shiloh from last week. Sacrificing the iconic Speed Booster sucks, but you still outrun Serperior and Ogerpon-W. Shadow Sneak, especially with Tera Ghost can somewhat leverage its worse overall sweeping potential, but in exchange you’re matchup vs bulkier builds becomes better.

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Landorus-Therian @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Weather Ball

Landorus finally escaped the mid allegations. Rocky Helmet has a lot of value in this metagame. Putting stuff in range and breaking Dnite’s Multiscale. With the direction OU is going rn, it may even be better than Gliscor, but I’m getting ahead of myself. Weather Ball in conjunction with Slowking-G setting up Snow, obliterates Gliscor and Lando while also hitting Tusk hard.

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Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 180 HP / 192 Atk / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Power Whip
- Play Rough

I’ve talked about a bulkier Wogre spread during the Archaludon suspect, but if you don’t like losing power and hate Rillaboom, this spread lives a Tera boosted Grassy Glide at full while outrunning Kyurem.

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Samurott-Hisui @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Water/Ghost/Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Aqua Cutter
- Knock Off/Aqua Jet/Sacred Sword/Sucker Punch
- Encore

Encore on Hamurott is not super common, but due to its typing and speed, Hamurott has the best Gambit matchup out of the other users in the tier. Encore also punishes stuff like Skarmory for clicking Roost, and grants you those free asf spikes that you have because of Gen 9 privilege.

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Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Def
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Swords Dance

(44 Atk EVs to secure an OHKO on Wogerpon after rocks)

Brave Bird Skarm has seen very few appearances, but I decided to take it a step further by incorporating Swords Dance and Brave Bird at once. This has a few functions. It lets it more reliably check Ogerpon, it doesn’t give Dragapult, Glowking, and Volcarona free entry. It 1v1s Hatterene, and Clefable with Swords Dance. It also punishes Gliscor for staying in on Skarm.

The other thing to note is this Skarm doesn’t have any speed EVs. Imo Skarm is an inconsistent Gambit check because some of them run Jolly and it needs all the physical bulk it could get. You still give Ghold and Raging Bolt free turns, but it is nowhere near as bad as running Body Press. The Balance builds it fits on would rather invest in other Gambit deterrents like Dozo, Zama, Wisp, Low Kick Weav, and Encore.

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Slowking-Galar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 176 SpA / 32 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Future Sight
- Ice Beam/Sludge Bomb/Flamethrower
- Focus Blast/Surf

Assault Vest Gking is criminally underrated. You trade Chilly Reception to be a more consistent special wall and you become much harder to switch into. It is consistent as a Kyurem and Moth check. Ice Beam one shots the Ground/Flying mons, Flamethrower smacks Ghold/Gambit, Focus Miss disintergrates Gambit, Surf hits Grounds and is good neutral coverage. The EV spread above is just from spook’s RMT, it could spec to hit certain thresholds.

We spent an entire generation where this was the standard set, it shouldn’t be taboo about running this.

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Ting-Lu @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 8 HP / 192 Atk / 40 Def / 180 SpD / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spikes/Whirlwind
- Earthquake
- Payback
- Ruination

(88 Spe to outrun standard bulky Kingambit. 192 Atk with an Adamant nature to 2HKO Bulkarona and 3HKO Clef without Lefties with EQ. I didn’t put much thought in the other EVs, js.)

Offensive Ting-Lu is a set forgotten in SV OU’s history, but it has made a few appearances here and there. Running this set is a gamble cause you become worse at eating hits. In exchange it matches up better into stuff like Offensive Ghold, Volcarona, and Hatterene. Ruination, Spikes, and Whirlwind allows you to still make progress even vs Balance builds. Earthquake can even OHKO Raging Bolt after chip.

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Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Ground/Water/Dragon
EVs: 180 HP / 112 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Flamethrower
- Tera Blast
- Substitute

(112 SpA to guarantee an OHKO on offensive Gambit and Ghold. 216 Sped to outrun Kyurem. The rest is dumped into HP.)

Sub-Volc is so stupid you guys don’t even know. Teams that rely on Gking + Gliscor to check it get absolutely flamed by this set.

(pun unintentional)

You also get to make Garganacl cry with Tera as they become hopeless in checking you. Gambit and Raging Bolt need to cope once they see a scary moth behind a Sub. Because of the bulk, you can outright 1v1 Primarina with Tera Ground cause Surf doesn’t do enough. Volcarona is simply built different.

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Weavile @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ice/Stellar
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick

Sometimes Triple Axel and Knock are so strong that a Swords Dance isn’t even needed, not like you get many opportunities to setup anyways. Instead, Weavile’s quality time should be spent on making Kingambit’s life worse with Low Kick. It also punishes reactionary Tera Steels and hits Samu-H.

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Zamazenta @ Mirror Herb
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Steel/Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Crunch
- Roar

Roar Zama reminds me so much of Roarcune from Gens 3-4. Roar is amazing for opposing Zama dittos, Tera Poison Tusk, and Tera Gambit. Plus it’s good for racking up hazard damage. Roar isn’t even a niche set, it’s legit on Zama builds and has seen success.

Mirror Herb I found to be fun asf on Zama. If their brain even considers clicking a Dragon Dance, or Swords Dance. Boom, free boost and you probably can reverse sweep them.

Some Niche Stuff

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Hoopa-Unbound @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Atk / 40 Def / 84 SpA / 92 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Knock Off
- Psychic Noise/Psychic
- Drain Punch
- Hyperspace Fury

(This spread is from the strategy dex. 248 HP and 40 Def lets it survive a SO boosted Sucker. 92 Speed to outrun Jolly Gambit. 84 SpA to one shot Moth with Psychic.)

There’s been a surprising amount of Hoopa usage lately. It has been seen a couple times in SPL and on ladder. With Assault Vest, Hoopa-U functions as a wallbreaker with defensive utility. It can be used to check non-Bug Buzz Volc, Raging Bolt, CM Hatt, Ghold, etc. Psychic Noise is a new addition to its movekit that punishes Skarm and Gliscor. It has good matchups into Stall and Balance builds because…what do you expect, it’s a fucking Hoopa.

It is a hard-to-fit mon with several glaring weaknesses, but it has its role in the metagame.

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Ogerpon (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Knock Off
- Encore
- U-turn

Remember that weird Deo-S Boots Spam team? Well this was the Oger set. Not Wogrepon, THE OGERPON. AcroOne used it as a discount Meowscarda. Unlike the other Ogerpons, it has the luxury to carry an item and unlike Meowscarda, it comes with Encore to punish setup moves and recovery moves. It is always cool to see niche picks being used.

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Ursaluna @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 28 HP / 252 Atk / 228 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Headlong Rush
- Facade
- Trailblaze

Ursaluna is so much fun to mess with. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar. Firstly, run Jolly, you OHKO Skarm and Corv with +2 Tera Normal Facade after rocks anyways. Another reason why 200 Speed Skarm sucks ass. Since everything not named Balloon Dengo gets nuked by it, I decided to run Trailblaze as the last slot. Not only is it a good midground vs Tusk, but at +1, you outspeed everything below the 100s and if they are stupid enough to let you get off another one, you get to outspeed Dragapult. Trailblaze also punishes the opponent for sacking. Tera Normal Facades are dummy strong as is, Swords Dance is just a big F you to anything that breathes.

My favorite pairing is Ursaluna + Rillaboom. G-Terrain mitigates Burn chip, and it shreds through Skarm after an SD, letting Rilla go wild with Grassy Glide and Wood Hammer. Pair it with Healing Wish support from Enamorus or Wish support from Mola and it becomes a menace.

View attachment 609213
Weezing-Galar @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strange Steam
- Pain Split
- Will-O-Wisp
- Haze/Toxic

As cool as Neutralizing Gas Defog is, Levitate has more value in this metagame. You stonewall Great Tusk, switch into Roaring Moon, you give 0 shits about Gliscor or Lando, and you’re not eating Spikes. G-Weezing is also an amazing SD Valiant check and does well into Dnite. Neutralizing Gas though can ofc be devious into Serperior, Regen mons, and Garganacl. G-Weezing in general should be explored more.

Anyways, I got some school stuff to finish. Have a good one y’all.
Awesome analysis, loved reading it amidst all this survey guessing which I find quite boring.

Anyway, I loved the take on spikes stacking balance teams. Skarm I've found to be rather inconsistent as a check to most things tbh, it gets taken advantage of too easily. I've tried so many times to use it as Kingambit check, only to be worn down throughout the game or just straight up lose to it outright.

Which brings me to something I wanna discuss, I think Kingambit is the most straining issue on the builder atm. People have just gotten so used to stacking checks to it that it's become 2nd nature almost. Now obviously threats in the metagame have to respected and accounted for, but Kingambit asks for so much it's actually insane. So many good builds I've tried only to realize it can't check Kingambit consistently, leading to either scrapping the whole thing or slapping a Great Tusk, the best check, somewhere on the team where something else might have been better. Now obviously Great Tusk is the best mon in the tier so that's not exactly the biggest problem, but there have been so many times where a team would like a different ground type spinner like Excadrill or Iron Treads or just a different ground type in general like Gliscor or Lando-T. Whenever I build something that needs removal, Great Tusk is pretty much mandatory to be able to spin while also having a Kingambit check. In a way, it even exacerbates the hazard issue of this tier.
 
Ok guys before the survey drops let's all agree on what the values mean alright? Feel free to argue against some of the things I put but here's what I think every number is:

5: QB it immediately please get rid of it.
4: Needs a suspect, a qb would be fine though.
3: Can/Should be suspected, but shouldn't be qb'd.
2: Isn't really a problem rn... Could probably suspect something else ngl but idk.
1: No action lmao this thing isn't a problem in the slightest.

Did I get it right or...?
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
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OU Leader
In my opinion, a few Pokemon may necessitate tiering action. This is how I felt on the Pokemon included on the survey

:Gouging Fire: is a 5/5 for me. Breaking Swipe sets are able to essentially handpick whatever checks or counters it. Scared of Ground moves? DD -> Breaking Swipe and they won't even 2HKO. Worried about Zama setting up on you? Tera Ghost and you eventually win the 1v1. Paranoid about Toxic Gliscor? Tera Poison or Tera Steel do the job. And then there are the offensive variants like Choice Band on Sun, which is able to dish out unreasonable amounts of damage without even needing to be attack booster. On top of all of this, DD Booster sets function perfectly well and have slim pickings for checks/counters, too. This Pokemon is just too much to account for right now.

:Ogerpon-Wellspring: is a 4/5 for me. I do not think it is healthy, but the tier is playable with it and I view Gouging Fire as more pressing. Three weeks ago I was the first person to bring this up for potential tiering action, so this is my victory lap as people were skeptical then while this is now a common stance. My guess is that it is not immediately suspected with other pressing things (such as Gouging Fire), but I think it will be eventually. I have been building a lot and it became increasingly apparent that covering Ogerpon-Wellspring was very challenging. Yes, things like Rillaboom and Serperior can exist as early game checks (barring U-turn), but other checks that are common are mostly circumstantial: Dragapult risks being OHKO'd by coverage (PR or Knock), Kyurem, Raging Bolt, and Dragonite risk Play Rough, and the combination of STABs hit the vast majority of other Pokemon. Hazards and revenge killing do limit it, so it is more of a breaker than a snowball sweeper, but Trailblaze can even help it sweep on occasion, too. Downsides exist with hazards, only being able to fit four moves, and so on, but it is a huge pain to account for.

:Roaring Moon:, :Raging Bolt:, and :Volcarona: are 3/5s for me. Roaring Moon is pretty manageable with the abundance of priority, Rocky Helmet, forced pressure, and Tera interactions surrounding it. I honestly considered putting it at a 2, but it still does force (albeit more natural and multifaceted) some teambuildingenergy and it is incredibly strong. Raging Bolt feels incredibly strong and regularly is able to 1.5-for-1 or 2-for-1, but it lacks the snowball potential due to Thunderclap reliance and speed tier. Counterplay exists, but is limited and mainly in the form of checks; I do not think it limits teambuilding too much yet, but we should monitor it. Finally, I find Volcarona to be the most dumb of the three. It is also necessary for Fairy types and Kyurem to a degree, but I hate tiering like that. This is just an awkward dynamic and it is so versatile, but I do not think others rate it as highly as I do.

:Kingambit: is between a 2 and a 3 for me. It is very good and the dynamic surroudning it is the same as before, but with a different cast of characters and different Tera types. It can snowball, but it can also be limited. I am keeping my eye on it, but do not view it as the biggest priority.

:Zamazenta:, :Gholdengo:, and :Garganacl: are 1 or 2. All are very good and pose unique threats, but none restrict building more than those listed above or pose a dispraportionate threat.

:Dragapult: probably also belongs in this discussion, but it may not be the most pressing option quite yet.
 

veti

Supreme Overlord
is a Pre-Contributor
:gouging fire: 4, way too hard to deny setup against bulky dd variants so they just win.

everything else was a 1, Dragapult is annoying asf and I'd put it at 2 though. I hate twave.
 
Enjoyment: 4
I tried playing a few bulkier styles lately and the cancerous hazard pressure made it feel very frustating. When things went my way, nothing was more satisfying. Unfortunately, things rarely did.

Competitive 5
Meta is still a bit match-up fishy.

Terstallization restriction: Yes
Outright ban of Tera: No

Gouging Fire: 5
Bullshit mon, whether it be DD, Band in sun (when you have to deal with Walking Wake + Bolt on top of it), etc. Get it out of here.

Ogerpon-W: 4
Spikes weakness is a problem but it is very restricting to bulkier builds. It is too strong and too fast.

Roaring Moon: 3
Not too broken but IMO adds almost nothing to the meta.

Volcarona: 2
I haven't been swept by this guy too much, but there are positions where it feels like the most unfair thing ever.

Raging Bolt: 5
Extremely bullshit mon. I don't like running Ting-Lu / Clodsire on every bulky team just to deal with it

Kingambit: 2
Can be kinda bs sometimes, but I'm packing 2 checks on average to this guy. I like its presence in the meta on offensive structus due to its good defensive utility.

Zamazenta: 1
Ruh-roh raggy.

Gholdengo: 1
Mon is trash rn lmao. IDK why we keep including it on the survey. Just for the laughs? Big stall will never win!

Garganacl: 1
I'm not gonna pretend that this mon isn't bs when it gets its shit going since it still is. With Knock / Trick support, it can 6-0 bulkier teams with no sweat. However, fitting it onto a team in this hazard hell-hole is a nightmare since it gets completely fucked by spikes. This is worse for it than Woger since its aiming to play a bit of a longer game with Salt Cure. Its best partners are like, Tusk and Corv, both of which are somewhat inconsistent removal. Also, its defensive util vs Moon, Gholdengo, Dragapult, and Gouging is just too good in this metagame.

Other things to look into:
Spikes, Tera Blast, #FreeLugia
 
so far from the past week of discussion, kingambit and roaring moon seem to be the tier’s biggest problem according the community, but the idea of testing raging bolt has most certainly been mentioned,

pokemon on the list include gouging fire, roaring no skill, kingambit, zamn, gholdengo, funny volcaronam dragapult!111 and garganacl?

Another piece of important news is that its been a hot minute since the mini cobalion craze back in january because people lost interest in the king of rng (including me and especially me) and theres lots of discussion about counters and checks

so lets get to work with the gimmick sets to counter these threats, descriptions will be short for now but detail will be added in edits

heres a cobalion set to check dd draggy and gouging, kingambit and zamazenta along with other physical attackers
Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Thunder Wave
- Protect/ flash cannon (to hit iron press zamazenta)

thunder wave is one of cobby’s best weapons, protect is for leftovers healing and stalling, iron press isn’t the most creative option but without it, it can’t check gouging fire with tera, iron press can even annoy garganacl (whats lil bro doing in the survey)

heres an extremely niche and stupid garganacl + wellspring counter + minor annoyance for raging bolt 3 for 1 gimmick set for troll teams, where cobalion fits best

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Taunt
- Roar
taunt blocks recover and block from garganacl and swords dance from ogerpon (may block encore and taunt for safe iron defenses) and roar racks up hazard damage, tera grass is to remove salt cure weakness, wall ogerpon and resist electric moves to cause minor inconvenience to raging bolt and max defense boosted body press are infact going to hurt, even if draco meteor obliterates the barely above average special bulk of cobalion and sends this false OU saviour back to where its kind belongs
Who the fuck is losing to Garg????
IMG_2790.png
 

1LDK

The Stand
is a Top Team Rater
Tera good
every offensive mon except for Gholdengo and Gouging fire good
stall bad
ban garg, ban gougin, ban ghold

and before a stall player tells me "amm ummm aksually gholdengo ban buffs stall" shut up I'm willing to risk it I just wanna actually use corv and let it feel useful for once
 
In order from most problematic to least problematic:

1709142197509.png
5/5
I think this one is pretty clear. Banded sets don’t have switch-ins while retaining some some unpredictability by choosing whether Proto boost goes to speed or attack. Bulky Breaking Swipe turns would-be checks into straight up liabilities. Excellent abuser of both defensive and offensive Teras with the bulk and raw power to support either.

1709142483272.png
4/5
The meta is pretty offensive right now, so I think the problems this thing causes are somewhat masked. SD + Grass STAB + Ivy Cudgel is all this Pokémon needs to dismantle bulkier teams by forcing Teras or netting KOs. The fourth slot is very flexible with extra coverage options like Superpower/Play Rough or support options like Encore, which can give it even more opportunities to set up. The dragons in the tier are holding it at bay somewhat, but they struggle to switch in more than once or twice.

1709142837828.png
4/5
This thing really only runs one set, but it is pretty damn effective regardless. It does have some flexibility with the Proto boost plus a 4th move slot that can be dedicated to coverage or utility. All of this combined means that it will usually net at least one or two KOs per game, even if it is not sweeping. It is definitely susceptible to priority and chip damage, but that doesn’t always limit its ability to effectively make progress.

1709143674440.png
3/5
I don’t think it’s that controversial to say the Kingambit is the single biggest consideration when it comes to teambuilding. This is thanks to Gambit’s insane breaking and sweeping power, which is further exacerbated by Supreme Overlord and access to Tera. As such, most teams, even offensive ones, require at least two checks to Gambit lest they risk being run down by it in the late game. With all that said, I do think this mon offers some useful aspects in building because it can check so much. Not a super high priority right now, but could become one (again) in the future.

1709147168934.png
3/5
This is another Pokémon that I think has some important niches in the tier thanks to its ability to blanket check fairies and steels. However, Volc is held back a little bit right now because it’s pretty much forced to run Tera dragon (and oftentimes, it is forced to use that Tera), which makes it a lot easier to check with stuff like Glowking or Heatran. That said, if some bans drop or the metagame shifts, I could see Volc being more of a problem. I also hate that it feels like some teams are forced into beating a +1 Volc with Gambit’s Sucker Punch. While this works right now, Volc could start running sub or WoW at any time.

1709144899607.png
3/5
I have been trending down on this Pokémon a lot in the past couple weeks. Bolt’s low speed and ground weakness means it has to rely on Tera and/or Thunderclap to make progress against a lot of teams, both of which are highly exploitable. It definitely does well into balance/bulkier teams, but it struggles for setup opportunities against more offensive teams, which is the best play style right now. I will be interested to see if people can innovate Bolt to be more effective in these matchups.

1709145344839.png
2/5
I don’t like that Body Press sets can sweep through certain team structures, but that doesn’t change the fact that there are a ton of splashable checks to this mon that fit on every archetype. Its lack of set diversity makes it a lot easier to plan for as well.

1709145492705.png
2/5
Cheese stick stocks are plummeting. Meta trends have been really unkind to Gholdengo, so it’s struggling in the current meta somewhat. On paper, its typing is amazing, but it’s actually a bit of a letdown in practice. Weaknesses to dark and fire force Tera in a lot of scenarios. Boots spam is also all over the place, so its ability to keep hazards up is less useful now.

1709145864525.png
1/5
Salt Cure is a supremely stupid move, but that doesn’t change the fact that Garg is passive and Tera reliant otherwise. No harm including it on the survey, but it is not a problem to me.

Other mentions:
1709145966895.png

I think an argument could be made for Dragapult being the best Pokémon in the tier at the moment. It has insane set diversity, with at least five different high viability sets and some other more gimmicky options at its disposal too. Not necessarily worthy of action, but worth keeping an eye on.

Terastallization:
At the start of the generation, I was in favor of a full ban, but I understand why a full ban is probably not in the cards anymore given that it would effectively mean starting the generation over. That being said, I still would like to see some effort to reign the mechanic in somewhat because it exacerbates a lot of the match-up fishing problems people have with the tier. I have no idea what a palatable solution looks like, but I plan to keep an open mind moving forward.
 
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