Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

The idea is probably more like pay to win, particularly when it comes to DLCs.
didn't someone make a video showing just how much money and time it took to legitimately grind out a viable VGC team? so yeah that makes a lot of sense. I mean now that Urshifu's available in DLC2 you don't need to finish an entire DLC in another game, but it still costs a lot of money.
 
what's good counterplay against bulky ddance gouging fire?
Enamorus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Cute Charm
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Earth Power
Idk man, just use id enamorus.
72 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 208-246 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
72 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 105-124 (29.8 - 35.2%) -- 21% chance to 3HKO
 
Last edited:
Does anyone have a good summary of what works/does not work in the meta right now? I see a lot of contradictions opinions over what the best play styles are and a lot of the sample teams are from very early DLC2. I have been using balance and struggling a lot (I think Kyurem permanently ended balance) but then I see people say that balance is the best. Would love to see an updated guide to what direction to build in right now.
a good way, and the method i use, to catch up on the meta is to check out replays from recent or active tournaments.

try looking at the ost threads for replays, along with the spl replay thread.
 

Soiramio3000

Banned deucer.
It does have morning sun, so that shit would stay around for a long time. It also has a decently wide movepool to abuse, with only its stabs, flare blitz and e-quake hitting the entire metagame for neutral damage. Could even drop e-quake to run morning sun if you are alright with hamurott resisting your moves.
oh okay then, my bad.

I guess it is going to be archaludon diet-edition.
that thing was nearly unkillable.
 
Enamorus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Cute Charm
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Earth Power
Idk man, just use id enamorus.
72 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 208-246 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
72 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 105-124 (29.8 - 35.2%) -- 21% chance to 3HKO
Why wouldn’t you just use Enamorus-Therian in this case? You know, its dedicated Tank form?
 
what's good counterplay against bulky ddance gouging fire?
Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Voice
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 8 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Noise
- Draining Kiss
- Haze
- Calm Mind
Okay, but for real this time, this set counters bulky gouging HARD. At +2, it does 44% max, while you haze off the boosts. Then you precede to calm mind up and psychic noise to stop recovery, while getting your own with draining kiss. Primarina is great in this meta and can fit on multiple team structures.

Why wouldn’t you just use Enamorus-Therian in this case? You know, its dedicated Tank form?
/sarcasm
 
Nice set but wouldn't leftovers just be better overall? Mostly coz trick is low in usage but you might find yourself in a situation where tera saves the day without having to worry about black sludge.
Well... the entire crux of this set is trick. Sets like these work Because they aren't meta. I won a few games last night in the mid 1600s with it. Ill post a replay next time i use it.
 
what's good counterplay against bulky ddance gouging fire?
Against the Breaking Swipe set specifically, Garganacl does well unless it is Covert Cloak. Toxic mon + Skeledirge also makes it very difficult to make any progress.
I haven't been playing much, so take it with a grain of salt, but my first instinct is: Unaware+Toxic is a death sentence. Let's use my man Quag as reference:

72 Atk Gouging Fire Breaking Swipe vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 63-75 (15.9 - 19%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
72 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire in Sun: 93-111 (23.6 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

The issue being sun-banded sets are really strong and they may just break through anyway if you end up in that match-up. Fuckin crazy stuff
 
I haven't been playing much, so take it with a grain of salt, but my first instinct is: Unaware+Toxic is a death sentence. Let's use my man Quag as reference:

72 Atk Gouging Fire Breaking Swipe vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 63-75 (15.9 - 19%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
72 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire in Sun: 93-111 (23.6 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

The issue being sun-banded sets are really strong and they may just break through anyway if you end up in that match-up. Fuckin crazy stuff
This seems to work until they tera poison and pp stall you. Which is the point of the whole set actually.
 
Amazing how every single word written here is just straight up wrong.
It's a parody of the eviolite Duraludon copypasta.

Nice set but wouldn't leftovers just be better overall? Mostly coz trick is low in usage but you might find yourself in a situation where tera saves the day without having to worry about black sludge.
The set is using Trick to give the opponent the Black Sludge.
 
what's good counterplay against bulky ddance gouging fire?

Tatsugiri Enjoyer (Dondozo) (F) @ Rocky Helmet

Gouging Fire actually has to touch you at some point. If you use Helmet instead of Boots, he will have to get passive damage, unless it has Leftovers (which you can previously knock, since bulky Gouging Fire is not that immediately threatening), you win 100% of the time.
 
what's good counterplay against bulky ddance gouging fire?
Against breaking swipe/flare blitz gouging fire, heatran cooks it with earth power even if they tera poison. Against breaking swipe/earthquake it can't touch enamorus. Neither of these pokemon do well into offensive variants though.


Tatsugiri Enjoyer (Dondozo) (F) @ Rocky Helmet

Gouging Fire actually has to touch you at some point. If you use Helmet instead of Boots, he will have to get passive damage, unless it has Leftovers (which you can previously knock, since bulky Gouging Fire is not that immediately threatening), you win 100% of the time.
Dondozo beats 100% of gouging fire sets if you run curse, water move, body press, rest. It's so fat I've never felt like it needed sleep talk.
 
Dondozo beats 100% of gouging fire sets if you run curse, water move, body press, rest. It's so fat I've never felt like it needed sleep talk.
Dondozo is definitely its best check but it needs to run physical defense specifically to beat attack Protosynthesis Banded sets with sun support:

252 Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Raging Fury vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo in Sun: 233-274 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO

(This is Jolly; Adamant is a guaranteed 2HKO without chip).
 
Dondozo is definitely its best check but it needs to run physical defense specifically to beat attack Protosynthesis Banded sets with sun support:

252 Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Raging Fury vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo in Sun: 233-274 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO

(This is Jolly; Adamant is a guaranteed 2HKO without chip).
there are a few caveats here. First of all this calc is common knowledge, so if sun is up and gouging gets an attack boost, i know its not in my best interest to hard switch. secondly, why would i rely on spdef dozo to counter it? i always run max Def. if i need a spdef unaware pokemon im using clodsire. max defense dozo is a fantastic win condition once special attackers are removed, maybe my brain is too small to understand why people would use it specially defensive
 
In terms of productive discussion, Gouging Fire is getting its test next week. I think we should discuss how dumb it is, but let's also disucss someting even more important: the suspect song. There are so many good fire based songs that I will dedicate time to listing them.

  • Firework - Katy Perry: This is a great choice. Mainstream as hell, and Gouging Fire is a firework as in its a literal bomb that explodes all over the other team.
  • Fire - The Crazy World of Arthur Brown: Oldie choice and a bit obscure, but this song slaps and come on, its called fire and its gouging fire
  • Through the Fire and the Flames - Dragonforce: Imma be real, I know jack about the band, but this song kicked my butt in Guitar Hero III (the best guitar hero game), so that alone mkaes it a good suspect song.
  • I'm On Fire - Bruce Springsteen: Its the boss. You gotta respect the boss. Gouging Fire is also on fire.
  • Burn - Usher: The dude just played the superbowl, one of his best songs could be a good suspect pick for this mon.
  • We Didn't Start the Fire- Billy Joel: We did not start the fire, a giant dinosaur dog did.
  • Disco Inferno - The Trampps: Burn bay burn, OU's an inferno.
  • Light my fire - The Doors: I am running out of puns
I swear if we get some garbo like Heat Waves I am going to vote DNB out of spite. I was denied Bad Moon Rising twice now for two moon related mons.

-----------------------------------------------

Ok in an actual serious discussion, I am glad Gouging Fire is the next test. I feel like there is a lot more community unity towards testing it than other candidates. Both Roaring Moon and Ogerpon Wellspring also have vocal proponents for their tests, but right now I doubt either of them would be able to hit 60% reliably. The Kyurem test has me a bit shook; I think that its gonna be hard for some of these borderline cases to get a test where they will get above the cutoff. Wellspring had a massive gap between qualified and general: I could easily see it having a similar fate to Kyurem, who had similar scores from the qualified playerbase but managed to cling to OU still. I think as scary as some of these mons are, they just do not have the same united front that Gouging Fire has right now. Maybe in another few weeks things could change, but I think testing Gouging right now was a great call by the community at large.
It’s gonna be hard to do “We didn’t start the fire“, as NDM already did that for their gouging fire suspect. But Through the fire and the Flames suspect music gon be fire
 
there are a few caveats here. First of all this calc is common knowledge, so if sun is up and gouging gets an attack boost, i know its not in my best interest to hard switch. secondly, why would i rely on spdef dozo to counter it? i always run max Def. if i need a spdef unaware pokemon im using clodsire. max defense dozo is a fantastic win condition once special attackers are removed, maybe my brain is too small to understand why people would use it specially defensive
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 153-180 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- 34% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 138-163 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Dondozo in Grassy Terrain: 306-360 (60.7 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 356-420 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 316-373 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dondozo can be bulky on the special side if you invest in it, while still being great at taking physical hits. It means you have a mon that can cover both sides of the spectrum decently well. Plus, you can boost your defense with curse, so that side can be uninvested.
I don't think you should use specially defensive dondozo, especially on stall teams, but I see the idea behind it to try and cover as much of the metagame as you can.
 
Chat, what are your thoughts on Synthesis Waterpon? I find it helps to alleviate the pressure that hazards put on it, and dropping SD isn't so bad considering your natural offensive power. Waterpon can force a switch, threatening Ivy Cudgel or whatever, and Synthesis, healing up for free. I had been running Superpower to hit Arch and guaranteed OHKO Moon, but after Arch's ban I do think Play Rough is better.

Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Play Rough
- Power Whip
- Synthesis

:ogerpon-wellspring::ogerpon-wellspring::ogerpon-wellspring:
 
Chat, what are your thoughts on Synthesis Waterpon? I find it helps to alleviate the pressure that hazards put on it, and dropping SD isn't so bad considering your natural offensive power. Waterpon can force a switch, threatening Ivy Cudgel or whatever, and Synthesis, healing up for free. I had been running Superpower to hit Arch and guaranteed OHKO Moon, but after Arch's ban I do think Play Rough is better.

Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Play Rough
- Power Whip
- Synthesis

:ogerpon-wellspring::ogerpon-wellspring::ogerpon-wellspring:
Cool set, though you will need to have hazards to chip down the opposing team + knock support to remove HDB. Could be better into bulkier teams.
I've been running grassy glide waterpon on a grassy terrain team, and it screws over opposing waterpon's who think they can try to speed tie, while also making faster mons much worse against it.
On a gimmick set I've used a sunny day + solar blade + synthesis set. Very cool idea, but it wasn't the best. Very funny though.
 
I feel like if you're dead set on incorporating recovery into Woger's moveset, you may as well just sacrifice Power Whip for Horn Leech, a less powerful but more accurate move of the same type. Woger feels like it can want Knock Off, SD, Encore, Play Rough, Superpower But Not As Much Anymore, Zen Headbutt similarly, etc
 
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 153-180 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- 34% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 138-163 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Dondozo in Grassy Terrain: 306-360 (60.7 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 356-420 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 316-373 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dondozo can be bulky on the special side if you invest in it, while still being great at taking physical hits. It means you have a mon that can cover both sides of the spectrum decently well. Plus, you can boost your defense with curse, so that side can be uninvested.
I don't think you should use specially defensive dondozo, especially on stall teams, but I see the idea behind it to try and cover as much of the metagame as you can.
Those calcs sort of undermine your own point though. Dozo can never take on wake because it ignores draco drops. Valiant makes it a sitting duck with encore. You aren't dealing much damage to kyurem with uninvested body press while it still cleanly 2hkos you. That rillaboom calc means that you're 2hkod even if you're full and curse on it. Meanwhile if you are max defense you at least have a chance.
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Grassy Terrain: 248-294 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
You are better into Gholdengo but you don't do any damage back to it and if it has recover or trick you're screwed.
And finally this:
0+ Def Dondozo Body Press vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 248-292 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Dondozo: 229-270 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
Even the slightest bit of chip damage means you're losing to gambit without tera dark in the endgame which is a depressing reality
 
Dondozo is definitely its best check but it needs to run physical defense specifically to beat attack Protosynthesis Banded sets with sun support:

252 Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Raging Fury vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo in Sun: 233-274 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO

(This is Jolly; Adamant is a guaranteed 2HKO without chip).
We have all seen this meme calc. Dozo needs to run physdef to perform well in OU for a lot reasons, SpDef Dozo is barely real, and they all run curse now to deal with several of the potent breakers in the tier. Gouging is a pretty fucked up mon for a lot of reasons but honestly this set specifically is not very well optimized for non-Dondozo matchups and is also at the end of the day pretty comparable to tusk and roaring moon running similar sets

overall this calc has been seen by literally everyone and is not particularly relevant to metagame discussion
 
Those calcs sort of undermine your own point though. Dozo can never take on wake because it ignores draco drops. Valiant makes it a sitting duck with encore. You aren't dealing much damage to kyurem with uninvested body press while it still cleanly 2hkos you. That rillaboom calc means that you're 2hkod even if you're full and curse on it. Meanwhile if you are max defense you at least have a chance.
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Grassy Terrain: 248-294 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
You are better into Gholdengo but you don't do any damage back to it and if it has recover or trick you're screwed.
And finally this:
0+ Def Dondozo Body Press vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 248-292 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Dondozo: 229-270 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
Even the slightest bit of chip damage means you're losing to gambit without tera dark in the endgame which is a depressing reality
I know, it was moreso just what people might be thinking. I forgor that you ignore the special drops because of unaware, which is cool counterplay. I'm guessing its moreso just so you don't instantly die to every special hit. Again, don't recommend it, but there is a reason for it being created. It's worse than every other dozo set, as curse is needed in this meta to combat physical attackers. I would absolutely stick to the physical defense sets, especially if you are using stall as like, just use blissey. Even though blissey doesn't have unaware, you tank every special move bar hoopa-U specs focus blast, and that is such as specific set that isn't even too good.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 24)

Top