Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

RE: The Tera Blast Discussion

It's so funny that people are doing everything in their power to just not touch kingambit because apparently banning him and then banning the things that become broken when he's gone is just too much action for the tier


Kingambit:
Eh, sucker punch and supreme overlord is still bs on gambit. +2 five allies defeated sucker punch still does 50% to tusk, which is insane. I could technically add gambit, but I think it's moreso that tera increases its power more when it still should be banned even if tera is banned. That mon still forces to many 50/50s, even when not tera'd.
Oh, and at least with gambit, it's most of the time not going to switch up its counterplay immensly by slotting in a different coverage move that it shouldn't have. Tera blast isn't even on 5% of gambit sets, so tera blast doesn't even involve gambit.
 
Finchinator and the OU Council, I agree with those who have posted in Policy Review and in this thread that there should be a Council vote on Tera Blast before a Volcarona suspect since some people are clinging to the hope that there will be future action on Tera, and ruling out action on Tera Blast can help some people decide to vote ban on Volcarona instead of desperately hoping for future action on Tera that will never come leading to them protesting with DNB votes.

This is probably the only way to get in another ban this generation since the playerbase is so divided on what should be banned. Volcarona and Tera Blast are so innately tied together that this approach is ideal policywise.
 
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Finchinator and the OU Council, I agree with those who have posted in Policy Review and in this thread that there should be a Council vote on Tera Blast before a Volcarona suspect since some people are clinging to the hope that there will be future action on Tera, and ruling out action on Tera Blast can help some people decide to vote ban on Volcarona instead of desperately hoping for future action on Tera that will never come leading to them protesting with DNB votes.

This is probably the only way to get in another ban this generation since the playerbase is so divided on what should be banned. Volcarona and Tera Blast are so innately tied together that this approach is ideal policywise.
If there really is no hope for future action on Tera then there simply isn’t hope for the future of the tier lmao.

Having this massive, centralising and unbalanced mechanic running rampant until Gen X is just-

lmaooooooooo
 
Honestly I feel like the meta right now is (almost) perfectly balanced and no bans are needed right now. All mons have several options for counterplay and none of them feel extremely egregious. Mons can get past their counters using tera, but they could do so in previous gens simply by running different sets. I feel like people are overfocusing on this because this gen it's tied to the generational mechanic. Tera brings a degree of complexity and creativity to the tier like no other mechanic before and I don't think it needs to go at all. Tbh the meta rn is the best its ever been in a looong while.
 
And a lot of people like Ubers…

Doesn’t change the fact that Tera is unbalanced and centralising, does it
What the fuck does a mechanic being unbalanced even mean ? Everyone benefits from it the same. A mon can be deemed unbalanced if it gives a clear advantage to people bringing it compared to those that do not. But everybody has tera, so this doesnt make any sense. You could argue for it being uncompetitive, like dynamax was, but i'd argue it isnt because it just adds another degree or planning to the game and each player has equal chances to benefit from it where the first player that got boosts using dynamax would often be the one who won.
 
Honestly I feel like the meta right now is (almost) perfectly balanced and no bans are needed right now. All mons have several options for counterplay and none of them feel extremely egregious. Mons can get past their counters using tera, but they could do so in previous gens simply by running different sets. I feel like people are overfocusing on this because this gen it's tied to the generational mechanic. Tera brings a degree of complexity and creativity to the tier like no other mechanic before and I don't think it needs to go at all. Tbh the meta rn is the best its ever been in a looong while.
I agree with this sentiment somewhat, and I honestly that banning volc will be the final step into getting a balanced meta. Yes, stuff like waterpon, gambit and moon exist and I'd prefer them gone, but they at least have somewhat consistent counterplay. With volc, it feels like there is not 'true' counterplay to it, you just have to pray it doesn't have the right tera to screw you over.
And a lot of people like Ubers…

Doesn’t change the fact that Tera is unbalanced and centralising, does it
Centralising? I could see that a bit, but its a generational mechanic, of course it is going to be a cornerstone of the meta. Unbalanced? No. You use your tera wrong, and you have wasted such a big resource. Like, you only get one opportunity to use it. I'd say its a pretty balanced mechanic, heck, stellar tera is straight up ass. Volc is literally the only thing that is truly, truly broken with tera. Gambit is a maybe, but everything else is fine. People seem to forget that there is something called defensive tera, which I think takes away some of the strain from the teambuilder. Without defensive tera, I would have to find a really, really good rain answer, instead of just slapping on a tera water/grass/dragon and calling it a day.
 
And a lot of people like Ubers…

Doesn’t change the fact that Tera is unbalanced and centralising, does it
So, right now, there are 41 pokemon in Ubers proper (less, if you don't count non-Arceus formes as distinct), and another 43 OU in OU proper. That's 84 pokemon out of 733 available in game. At the moment, I am way too lazy to calcuate how many of those are pre-evolutions, but even at a conservative 25%, that leaves us us with 550 Pokemon -- a little over 15% in tiered in a "top tier competitive format".

Now, of that 84, how many do you think are either only OU, or only Ubers, because Tera exists? I don't even think there are 8.
 
So, right now, there are 41 pokemon in Ubers proper (less, if you don't count non-Arceus formes as distinct), and another 43 OU in OU proper. That's 84 pokemon out of 733 available in game. At the moment, I am way too lazy to calcuate how many of those are pre-evolutions, but even at a conservative 25%, that leaves us us with 550 Pokemon -- a little over 15% in tiered in a "top tier competitive format".

Now, of that 84, how many do you think are either only OU, or only Ubers, because Tera exists? I don't even think there are 8.
I’m not sure why you did all that counting when my point was just that people enjoy overpowered things (Tera, Ubers, etc.) and that doesn’t stop them being overpowered lol.
 
Well that's inconsistent - instantly shutting down an attempt to discuss Tera's place in the tier then saying that handpicking counterplay is a "tell tale sign of a problem." Is that not exactly how Tera works?
I wasn't though? I just responded to what frankly came off as bad faith.

It's so funny that people are doing everything in their power to just not touch kingambit because apparently banning him and then banning the things that become broken when he's gone is just too much action for the tier
People aren't touching it because as far as problematic or contentious pokemon go, there are far worse examples and Kingambit is pretty low on that list. No one is "trying not to touch" it.
 
I’m not sure why you did all that counting when my point was just that people enjoy overpowered things (Tera, Ubers, etc.) and that doesn’t stop them being overpowered lol.
Your last few posts have just been you vaguely gesturing at the idea that terastalization is so overpowered that anyone who likes it is clearly just enjoying having overpowered presences in OU, when frankly whether the mechanic is overpowered or not is not nearly as cut and dry as you make it out to be. Regardless, "tera is overpowered and comparable to ubers" is a non-argument and using it to actively disengage with someone who is attempting to provide statistics to explain why they believe tera does not exert nearly as much of an influence on OU as you believe it does is asinine.

If you think Tera is broken, that's fine, but actively explaining your position instead of going "ooOOoo tera so centralising broke meta" would be a nice start.
 
Stepping away from the tera discussion, I found a move that could be pretty good on roaring moon, which is very fitting for its name, roar.
Now, why roar? It always is last in priority, and thus you have to take a hit, and while moon has decent bulk, it doesn't have enough bulk to constantly use this. However, the last slot in moons movepool is usually either taunt or e-quake. Taunt means that you can't set up alongside moon, and e-quake helps deal with stuff like gambit.
This is where roar comes in, it deals with both sets of counterplay to moon. Any setup mons will be forced out, and will have to take more damage when they come in, or just have to chip moon down, which isn't ideal. Stuff like gambit will have to take hazard damage constantly once moon knocks off their HDB, which they may be forced to come into. This means that they have a lot less wiggle room to beat moon. as something like gambit takes 30% from knock or 40% from tera flying acro at +1, which moon basically is always able to get. Once the hazard layers start piling up, gambit won't be able to reliably switch in because it is threatened too much by moon.
This is moreso a theory, I haven't tried it out in practice, but it could be pretty good on moon.
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor
I've seen a rising mentality of people saying that "we need to do something or no other bans will happen for the rest of the generation", if that sentiment is true then maybe y'all need to reconsider why a lot of people seem to be content with the current state of affairs. The meta is not in as much of a rut than what a lot of you are saying.
 
I've seen a rising mentality of people saying that "we need to do something or no other bans will happen for the rest of the generation", if that sentiment is true then maybe y'all need to reconsider why a lot of people seem to be content with the current state of affairs. The meta is not in as much of a rut than what a lot of you are saying.
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with this, but there is undoubtedly a problem with the metagame right now. We're in a state of "broken checks broken" that's been nearly unmatched across most of pokemon's history, but there is no general consesnsus on what that problem is. Some people will say it's waterpon, some will say it's moon, some will say it's volc, and some will say it's tera. It's impossible to make any progress in fixing the metagame when it's taken a SAO abridged style of balancing where these hyper offensive mons beat each other in with a crowbar until the mangled flesh of a metagame has all the bone fractures find themselves in a place where it can barely walk to the 7/11 down the street.

TL;DR Everyone has a problem the metagame, no one can agree on why it's bad.
 
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Duck Chris

replay watcher
is a Forum Moderator
TL;DR Everyone hates the metagame, no one can agree on why it's bad.
This is just so obviously false and claims like this add nothing to the discussion. Obviously not *everyone* hates the metagame as no one would be playing it. And if multiple styles and 40+ pokemon are receiving usage in OU them its not *obviously* broken

If you don't like something, say that. No need for the rest
 
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with this, but there is undoubtedly a problem with the metagame right now. We're in a state of "broken checks broken" that's been nearly unmatched across most of pokemon's history, but there is no general consesnsus on what that problem is. Some people will say it's waterpon, some will say it's moon, some will say it's volc, and some will say it's tera. It's impossible to make any progress in fixing the metagame when it's taken a SAO abridged style of balancing where these hyper offensive mons beat each other in with a crowbar until the mangled flesh of a metagame has all the bone fractures find themselves in a place where it can barely walk to the 7/11 down the street.

TL;DR Everyone hates the metagame, no one can agree on why it's bad.
I'd say that's a bit dramatic. Is the metagame the best? No. There are a ton of powerful threats running around. But is the metagame the worst? Also no. There are ways to handle these threats at least somewhat comfortably.
I'd say that there needs to be 1-2 bans to make this metagame "perfect" (I say that in air quotes because there is no such thing as perfect, but I think you get what I mean). I think the metagame is in an alright state, there are a few problematic issues, but it isn't the worst metagame. I believe that's why there is such a diverse range of opinions on the metagames health. A metagame can just be good, not spectacular, just good.
 
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I've seen a rising mentality of people saying that "we need to do something or no other bans will happen for the rest of the generation", if that sentiment is true then maybe y'all need to reconsider why a lot of people seem to be content with the current state of affairs. The meta is not in as much of a rut than what a lot of you are saying.
if that mentality is rising, wouldn't it mean a lot of people aren't content with the current state of affairs, and that more people are becoming discontent with it? i don't think we can just cover our ears until this goes away, we need to address that something is deeply wrong with this meta
 
if that mentality is rising, wouldn't it mean a lot of people aren't content with the current state of affairs, and that more people are becoming discontent with it? i don't think we can just cover our ears until this goes away, we need to address that something is deeply wrong with this meta
I don't think there is something 'deeply wrong' with this meta. It's just that there are a few things that are a bit problematic that people would like gone. Remember how nonsensical people got after gouging wasn't banned? How they said it was the end of gen 9 OU or something along those lines. Because I do. And guess what, gen 9 OU is still around. Finch had to multiple times say that its not the end of the world.
The metagame is just a tiny bit bad, and I firmly believe the volc ban would be the best ban in this case. It has very limited defensive utility it offers to the tier, and what it does offer is not really that much of a problem. Only really kyurem is what is even close to problematic it handles (no, rillaboom ain't the shit, I would rather ban serperior before rilla) and even then, it takes 60% from a draco minimum, so it isn't really a good answer. In return, we get a mon that is super hard to defensively answer, and can flip matchups on a dime. I didn't realize until they announced they are looking at volc how constraining it is on the teambuilder. It's truly the only thing rn that I really want gone. I can live if gouging, gambit, waterpon or bolt stay, but volc is something I really want gone.
 
I have also gone back to testing Psyspam yet again despite it being generally rough. The biggest problem being speed control. My answer to fix this is ironically Rillaboom. It's the only mon that can give you priority while Psychic Terrain is up since it replaces it. Too many times have I had some setup sweeper or boosted mon come in and tear through my PT teams with no way to immediately respond. The solution being Grassy Terrain legitimately hurts my soul. But once I discarded my useless sentimentality, I found it to be quite useful so far in limited testing.

Rillaboom helps some of the worst matchups. Like how rain Barraskewda outspeeds everything you can run, including Hawlucha. But Rillaboom turns the tables in hilarious fashion. It also helps the Hamurott matchup a ton. Leading in general becomes far easier because teams that matchup well into the classic Indeedee lead now have to worry about different lead options. Generally, it just fixes so many weaknesses to actually have usable priority on this archetype.

I have decided I don't like Hawlucha on Psychic Terrain. It's fast, but not fast enough to actually outrun everything you would need it to. Barraskewda in the rain outruns you. BE speed Roaring Moon with a single Dragon Dance outruns you. Etc. It also needs a Swords Dance to properly revenge kill a lot of threats. If you are responding and not setting up in an advantageous position, it's a lot worse. Hawlucha simply can't solve all of speed control problems of Psychic Terrain. This is much less of an issue on Grassy Terrain.

To me, the best and most consistent sweeper for PT is Polteageist. Stored Power from Shell Smash is just really good. Fighting Tera Blast and Shadow Ball are nearly perfect complimentary coverage. Even if it doesn't get a sweep, you can generally punch holes in the opposing team.

This brings me to an unlikely core of Indeedee, Polteageist, and Rillaboom. Kinda strange, but it seems way more promising than any Psychic Terrain core I have tried before. You might ask why not just Grassy Terrain since it's a superior archetype. And to that I say, Polteageist is actually a good reason to run Psychic Terrain. You just need a team that doesn't let it down. I believe that a lot of the other conventional mons people are used to running on Psychic Terrain aren't as good, though, and that the solutions to making this archetype more consistent might lie in more out of the box solutions. Also, forcing like 4 RU mons onto an OU team because that's the archetype might be unwise.

Coverage wise, Fire types are almost a necessity on Psychic Terrain just because of the need to hit the metal birds and many Steel types. I am very down on Armarouge, though, since triggering the weakness policy is extremely gimmicky and not reliable enough. HBD just makes it weaker. It is hard to make it consistent.

I have also tested Blaziken. Blaziken has a similar issue to Hawlucha in that it takes too long to get going and it hates facing the boosted speed tiers that are too fast for it. I think there is maybe a place for it on very specific teams, but Psychic Terrain probably ain't it.

Cinderace strikes me as a really decent option since it is fast and can help with the hazard issue. You can just come in with immediate speed and power. I think Psyspam teams tend to lean so heavy into the HO factor that they simply don't have much immediate power work with.

What I am currently testing is Psychic Seed Gouging Fire. The results so far have been mixed. With just Psychic Seed, it was able to survive a +1 Tera Ground Volc TB. So far, it can't get setup enough. The survivability is good. A decent amount of mons outspeed it at +1, so you really need to be at +2 most of the time. The boosted metagame can sometimes outspeed you even at + 2. I am pretty sure I could be using a more optimal set, but I don't know if I should lean more towards an offensive set or even more bulk.

I don't think a Tera Blast ban would happen, but if it does, it would nerf Polteageist to the point where Psychic Terrain is probably irreversibly irrelevant again instead of just mostly so. I also found TB is very helpful on Indeedee since it is a decent base power Normal STAB that can also become emergency coverage. The lack of normal attackers in the tier to use TB is maybe something to look at in general. We might be able to make some niche options work in certain team structures.
 
how about, IronPress skarm, or Kingambit, or the #4 most used Mon in the tier Lando-T



Well that's inconsistent - instantly shutting down an attempt to discuss Tera's place in the tier then saying that handpicking counterplay is a "tell tale sign of a problem." Is that not exactly how Tera works?
Skarm loses to the Tera fly taunt set, Lando T also cant hit the Moon after Tera fly. I agree Gambit is good in conjunction with other mons but you have to scope out whether or not its EQ or taunt.
 

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