Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

Ok, got washed by an Ogrepon on a Sticky Webs team.

BAN!

JK! Honestly, I’m all for a mon that can eat up Alomomola for breakfast. Sticky Webs aside, I feel that generally 110 just isn’t fast enough. A lot of Top Tier threats out speed her, and threaten her without her Tera’ing. On top of being worn down by hazards, idk, I think she is fine. Probably.
Reminds me of Kyurem in a weird way where both have breaking capabilities with virtually none to few defensive answers in OU but can still easily be outsped with all the fast threats.
 

awyp

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View attachment 630740
Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 124 SpD / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Horn Leech
- Encore/Synthesis/Play Rough/Knock Off

The unholy Bulky Ogerpon. In a nutshell it makes you even harder to rkill. Since you’re still an Ogerpon, +2 Cudgel still does a shitton of damage even without investment.

+2 0 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 211-249 (52.7 - 62.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 0 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 282-332 (70.5 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This Oger can 1v1 Kyurem without Play Rough since Tera Water Ivy 2HKOs and you live even a Specs Freeze Dry easily.

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. +1 248 HP / 124 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 210-248 (57.8 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So yes, you can set up on fucking Kyurem.

Wogre can also run Synthesis to keep itself healthy as Spikes continue to batter it down. Or you can just run Encore to keep doing Wogre things.

Wogre is a polarizing force that demands Dragapult, Zama, Dnite, a bulky Grass type, or Tera Dragon/Grass on your Balance builds, but honestly, the meta might be better with it around than without it. The utility with Encore prevents alot of cheese strats and punishes overly passive builds. It also stops Mola from brainlessly clicking Flip Turn. Very few things can one-shot a healthy Mola, so it can keep spamming Flip Turn or Wish to heal up its breakers/walls. Kinda annoying, but imagine not having Wogre to punish it.



Grats on the badge. It’s unfortunate seeing you lose interest in the tier cuz you’re awesome.

Imo the threat saturation issue is overblown and Volc was the main issue cause of the teambuilding resources it demands (Even then it finds a way to bullshit around you). SV OU allows for Balance, BO, and HO to thrive, which is a sign that the tier is settling down.

Players mostly picking from the Top 20 is nothing new. Any meta will have players gravitate towards the top threats. Even ADV, the most balanced and creative OU meta, has most people running Ttar/Skarm/Bliss/Pert/Rachi/Meta/Mence/Zap/Gar/Clay.

I never felt Glowking was mandatory for Balance. Obviously its THE Balance mon, but there are successful Balances that don’t have it. The threats its meant to handle like CM Val, Prima, R-Bolt, and Wake have other forms of counterplay. Sun is a non-issue and also decreased in usage, because Sun has other demons to handle like Primarina, priority, Wogre, Tera Water Gliscor, etc.

I still disagree with the take on Ghold. Boots Tusk is common and you risk losing webs if Tusk clicks Knock on the switch. The few hazard control options we have are fine. Yes even Corv is fine as long as you pair it with a wallbrraker that punishes Ghold like Samu, Hoopa, or Darkrai. Even Offense, the archetype Webs is built to cteam, runs options like Glimmora, Pult (Boots or Clear Body CB), Treads, Cinder, Hatt, etc. Hatt in particular ruins Webs since most Ribombees run Psychic over Skill Swap these days to not get 6-0d by Iron Moth.

Imo more players should experiment with Tusk’s EV spreads. With 140 SpD EVs, Tusk can eat a MiR from offensive Ghold after a layer of spikes.

252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 140 SpD Great Tusk: 265-313 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

Plus it improves its matchup with Raging Bolt.

I’m interested in hearing what you consider to be the main problem mons in the tier that lead to threat saturation.

also that Ghold image is vile
Love your posts btw, but I'll go ahead and answer your question on what I view to be main problem mons in the tier that lead to threat saturation.

:roaring-moon: - Yeah so I think Roaring Moon is overbearing, 370 speed off the whim with almost 500 Attack (Booster Attack) Is really quite a lot with something that has a solid amount of bulk in general (SpD side). You can go also slower and have like 540 attack (Adamant). Just really insane numbers with something that isn't choiced. It doesn't take much effort to setup, just get a free switch-in / tera and you're +1 DD up and not much I think can take a Tera Flying Acrobatics.

252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 177-208 (35.1 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The best physical wall in the meta gets 3HKO'd so if you switch in on a Knock Off, Acro will 2HKO'd which isn't difficult if you have taunt. I think that's the simplest way to put it without getting to into detail. When I justify keeping a mon that I think is broken in the meta, it's the good it does in the tier *cough cough* Kingambit. Roaring Moon does little to no good. Kingambit gives that much needed steel type from a defensive perspective from a meta that is sorely lacking it. Roaring Moon is one of the many Dragons and Dark types in the tier, it all runs the same set for the most part nowadays which is just Booster Energy Attack / Speed.

:kyurem: Kyurem shouldn't be in the meta either (This is still pretty accurate after 4 months) - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...rocess-round-9-let-it-go.3735078/post-9951259

There's others of course but I don't care to bring them up now because we have to approach these threats one by one. But If these honestly get banned and we also ban Gholdengo? I think this meta would be 10/10 NGL
 
I am one of the ones who doesn't think Gholdengo is a problem. The hazard clear issues are overrated. Not nonexistent, just overstated. We actually have more tools to deal with hazards now in gen 9 than we did for most of the former gens with things like HDB, viable spinners, Court Change, and yes even a viable defogger or so. Really, just gen 8 was better in this regard. I actually think it's a good thing that Corv cannot just mindlessly Defog every game like in gen 8. And I still like using Corv as a defogger in gen 9.

Also, Ghold is a major red herring. There aren't really enough viable defoggers in the first place for Ghold to matter like it apparently did in Nat Dex. It's basically just Corv and occasional niche picks like Talonflame or Geezing who doesn't care about it because NG. Corv can literally just slow U-turn into something that threatens Ghold. It's not that much of a problem. The biggest problem with hazards this gen is spikes. Not the clear. There are hazard stack teams that don't even run Ghold because they can just pressure the other team to make clearing difficult.

I don't agree with Gamefreak's decision to get rid of pursuit, which would essentially solve the Gholdengo problem. But there are still plenty of things that threaten Ghold regardless.
 
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Love your posts btw, but I'll go ahead and answer your question on what I view to be main problem mons in the tier that lead to threat saturation.

:roaring-moon: - Yeah so I think Roaring Moon is overbearing, 370 speed off the whim with almost 500 Attack (Booster Attack) Is really quite a lot with something that has a solid amount of bulk in general (SpD side). You can go also slower and have like 540 attack (Adamant). Just really insane numbers with something that isn't choiced. It doesn't take much effort to setup, just get a free switch-in / tera and you're +1 DD up and not much I think can take a Tera Flying Acrobatics.

252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 177-208 (35.1 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The best physical wall in the meta gets 3HKO'd so if you switch in on a Knock Off, Acro will 2HKO'd which isn't difficult if you have taunt. I think that's the simplest way to put it without getting to into detail. When I justify keeping a mon that I think is broken in the meta, it's the good it does in the tier *cough cough* Kingambit. Roaring Moon does little to no good. Kingambit gives that much needed steel type from a defensive perspective from a meta that is sorely lacking it. Roaring Moon is one of the many Dragons and Dark types in the tier, it all runs the same set for the most part nowadays which is just Booster Energy Attack / Speed.

:kyurem: Kyurem shouldn't be in the meta either (This is still pretty accurate after 4 months) - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...rocess-round-9-let-it-go.3735078/post-9951259

There's others of course but I don't care to bring them up now because we have to approach these threats one by one. But If these honestly get banned and we also ban Gholdengo? I think this meta would be 10/10 NGL
I'm interested in Roaring Moons right now. I've been seeing discussion of it recently and can see why honestly. Taunt roaring moon was a surprisingly good set to me, stopping multiple checks from id body press corviknight, to toxic Gliscor, to whirlwinds tinglu, and curse dondozo. I think roaring moon ability to bs through most physical checks in the game is unhealthy in a way. It makes most checks into it inconsistent and just plain setup fodder, and after that, knock/ acro can hit the rest of the metagame for pretty good damage with the only decent check being kambit to both stabs. This isn't even bringing up the potential it may be eq over taunt which just open up a whole other can of worms. It does have weaknesses of being predictable with tera since it will always be flying more likely than not and being weak to ice shard and tclap after tera is a concern to worry about although. Idk I would love to hear your guy's thoughts on moon
 
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I'm interested in Roaring Moons right now. I've been seeing discussion of it recently and can see why honestly. Taunt roaring moon was a surprisingly good set to me, stopping multiple checks from id body press corviknight, to toxic Gliscor, to whirlwinds tinglu, and curse dondozo. I think roaring moon ability to bs through most physical checks in the game is unhealthy in a way. It makes most checks into it inconsistent and just plain setup fodder, and after that, knock/ acro can hit the rest of the metagame for pretty good damage with the only decent check being kambit to both stabs. This isn't even bringing up the potential it may be eq over taunt which just open up a whole other can of worms. It does have weaknesses of being predictable with tera since it will always be flying more likely than not and being weak to ice shard and tclap after tera is a concern to worry about although. Idk I would love to hear your guy's thoughts on moon
Broken, plain and simple. Like, wtf is switching in or outspeeding it after a boost? With booster speed and at +1, it can outspeed barra in rain. Like, that is so fast, and on a mon with amazing attack and decent defenses. No, priority is not enough. Sucker punch that isn't 5 supreme overlord boosts doesn't ko from full, and one supreme overlord boost does 75% max. Ice shard is literally just weavile and thunderclap can be outplayed, so its not reliable. The only counterplay is "use tera or hope I can prevent it setting up" and that is a lot more difficult if you have other mons you need to deal with. Booster being one time is a detriment, but its still plenty powerful without it and can still do work.
An option that I have found good on moon is roost. You have quite a decent defensive typing and this can help with opponents that try to chip down moon.
Another option I am interested in is fire fang moon. This beats both the metal birds and gambit in one slot, which is great. +1 fire fang does 62% min to bulky gambit and 51% to corv min. This could genuinelly be a really cool move to tack on, I'm interested in what other people think about it.
 
Broken, plain and simple. Like, wtf is switching in or outspeeding it after a boost? With booster speed and at +1, it can outspeed barra in rain. Like, that is so fast, and on a mon with amazing attack and decent defenses. No, priority is not enough. Sucker punch that isn't 5 supreme overlord boosts doesn't ko from full, and one supreme overlord boost does 75% max. Ice shard is literally just weavile and thunderclap can be outplayed, so its not reliable. The only counterplay is "use tera or hope I can prevent it setting up" and that is a lot more difficult if you have other mons you need to deal with. Booster being one time is a detriment, but its still plenty powerful without it and can still do work.
An option that I have found good on moon is roost. You have quite a decent defensive typing and this can help with opponents that try to chip down moon.
Another option I am interested in is fire fang moon. This beats both the metal birds and gambit in one slot, which is great. +1 fire fang does 62% min to bulky gambit and 51% to corv min. This could genuinelly be a really cool move to tack on, I'm interested in what other people think about it.
I only brought up those two because that was the only genuine way I could think of any form of counter play lol. The way I beat roaring moon with is with prayers and hopes to lord arceus himself.
 
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Another option I am interested in is fire fang moon. This beats both the metal birds and gambit in one slot, which is great. +1 fire fang does 62% min to bulky gambit and 51% to corv min. This could genuinelly be a really cool move to tack on, I'm interested in what other people think about it.
Sounds like the same rationale I used for Tera Fire Meowscarada. I think due to Fire Fang's low power i'd simply slot in Tera Blast instead honestly, dark/ground/fire is pretty solid coverage and it still removes your weaknesses to Ice and Fighting. Moon hits substantially harder at that point too so I think it'd be solid.

Scratch that EQ part. I think Acrobatics does better at that point since I completely lost the ability to understand fire hits steel.
 
Broken, plain and simple. Like, wtf is switching in or outspeeding it after a boost? With booster speed and at +1, it can outspeed barra in rain. Like, that is so fast, and on a mon with amazing attack and decent defenses. No, priority is not enough. Sucker punch that isn't 5 supreme overlord boosts doesn't ko from full, and one supreme overlord boost does 75% max. Ice shard is literally just weavile and thunderclap can be outplayed, so its not reliable. The only counterplay is "use tera or hope I can prevent it setting up" and that is a lot more difficult if you have other mons you need to deal with. Booster being one time is a detriment, but its still plenty powerful without it and can still do work.
An option that I have found good on moon is roost. You have quite a decent defensive typing and this can help with opponents that try to chip down moon.
Another option I am interested in is fire fang moon. This beats both the metal birds and gambit in one slot, which is great. +1 fire fang does 62% min to bulky gambit and 51% to corv min. This could genuinelly be a really cool move to tack on, I'm interested in what other people think about it.
Agreed about Moon being cracked. Also, Weavile's Ice Shard is only doing 50% to Moon so the opponent has to be more than chipped for it to actually revenge kill.

While Fire Fang is a cool concept, I don't think it will do that well in practice. It doesn't hit hard enough to beat ID Skarm and the power drop vs EQ against Gambit is notable (Since you can't OHKO it at +1, you're forced to take an Iron Head + Sucker Punch). Moon would prefer Taunt to reliably beat Skarm (+Corv and Dozo) or EQ/Brick Break to reliably OHKO Gambit and cater the rest of the team to deal with whatever it can't beat.
 
Would be happy to see Moon go, but eh, not sure whether I'd call it broken. For every game I've seen / played where moon is able to get a game-winning sweep, there are just as many games where it winds up doing nothing. One of those mons thats really good, but feels very inconsistent - like 90% of the top tiers tbf lmao. It might be oppressive vs bulky offense teams with that Brick Break set, but even then, they have some solid tools to combat it between ESpeed Nite, Lando-T (kinda....) Tera Fairy Gambit, and a well played Zamasenta, as well as other options like Scarf Meowscarada (which is a pretty underrated revenge killer), Scizor, etc. That being said, in terms of mons to account for, it probably is one of the bigger hassles since its so fast and Booster jacks up its damage. In terms of low-tier mon gatekeepers, it is also one of the biggest ones (Although... a good amount of low tier high def mons like Pechurant, Duraludon, and even Tauros-P do an ok job emergency checking it with Tera Fairy which is cool). I also lowkey think it might be one of the most underexplored mons in the meta. The only set I see is booster Attack DD on HO (which is Tera Flying 90% of the time but I've also seen Tera Ghost), which is no doubt great, but surely some other sets should fit on slower paced playstyles, right? Maybe with other items like Black Glasses / Boots and other Tera types like Steel, Water, or Fairy.
 
I am one of the ones who doesn't think Gholdengo is a problem. The hazard clear issues are overrated. Not nonexistent, just overstated. We actually have more tools to deal with hazards now in gen 9 than we did for most of the former gens with things like HDB, viable spinners, Court Change, and yes even a viable defogger or so. Really, just gen 8 was better in this regard. I actually think it's a good thing that Corv cannot just mindlessly Defog every game like in gen 8. And I still like using Corv as a defogger in gen 9.

Also, Ghold is a major red herring. There aren't really enough viable defoggers in the first place for Ghold to matter like it apparently did in Nat Dex. It's basically just Corv and occasional niche picks like Talonflame or Geezing who doesn't care about it because NG. Corv can literally just slow U-turn into something that threatens Ghold. It's not that much of a problem. The biggest problem with hazards this gen is spikes. Not the clear. There are hazard stack teams that don't even run Ghold because they can just pressure the other team to make clearing difficult.

I don't agree with Gamefreak's decision to get rid of pursuit, which would essentially solve the Gholdengo problem. But there are still plenty of things that threaten Ghold regardless.
I begrudgingly agree with you. I really don't want too. I want you to be wrong outright. But I'll be honest, I've been feeling this way about Ghold for a while.

When I decide to use Tusk, only Ghold I fear is Scarf. Temper Flare, man. It's like GF heard my whining and made that move just to shut me up.

Shout-out to whomever mentioned Choice Scarf Meowscarada. I may be wrong, but I will still say that it's one of her best sets. Possibly best now, I dunno. It's basically a crutch for me.

Me: "FUCK, RM got off a DD, what the hell do I do!"

Meow:"Chill, I got this"

*Triple Axle Missed!*

Ok, so that's a thing that happens more often than I'd like, but still. Slap whatever coverage you want. You can even give her Trick, how I used to fuck over Volc. I don't like doing that as much, since it makes Knock Off less of a braindead move.

I would get flak from my opponents, and am glad that you folks here are giving Scarf Meow a passing grade. I will pay less heed to what my opponent has to say.
 

658Greninja

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Moon is a hot topic currently and I want to throw my hat in the ringer.

I’ve already made a post about it here months ago but most of what I said is still relevant to my current thoughts.

Roaring Moon isn’t an issue imo. It’s relatively one-dimensional about what it sets out to do. There’s DD 3atks and DD Taunt, along with the occasional CB Moon Sun. Exotic posted a really cool Moon spread that aims to hit harder and tank more hits, but it seems to have its own issues such as needing Webs and being outpaced by max Speed Lando, Kyurem, and Wogre. Still, kudos to Exotic for his innovations.

Without Volc, Moon has less setup opportunities, with most of the tier threatening to kill or cripple. Even its best setup opportunities like Glowking or Ghold can threaten with status.

While Moon has few hard checks, it can be handled with different team compositions like Lando + Raging Bolt, Corv + Weav, Gliscor + Gambit, Ting-Lu + Tinkaton, etc. Unlike with Volc, you only had to guess two sets and they reveal themselves quickly.

Just to list the Moon counterplay for a sec.

IMG_0688.png
Lando always lives a DD-boosted hit. It chips Moon with U-Turn and Helmet to put it in range of priority like Sucker, Clap, E-Speed, etc. Lando also can tech Rock Tomb/Stone Edge to check it on its own.

IMG_2467.png
Gliscor gets off a Toxic vs non-Taunt variants. Like Lando, it can U-Turn into something like Weavile.

IMG_4744.png
R-Bolt can Tera Fairy into an incoming EQ. It checks Taunt DD very nicely. It also punishes Tera Flying with Thunderclap. Even Adamant Knock doesn’t scratch this.

+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 250-295 (61.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

IMG_4652.png
Zama can Tera Steel and Roar the Roaring Moon out. Defensive Tera is not usually an argument, but with something that only fits on HO, I think its fair. Specially since it doesn’t hinder Zama much. Mirror Herb Zama also completely destroys this.

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Mola can fish for burns or pivot into R-Bolt, Weavile, Lando, Dnite, or Gambit. Not actually that reliable.

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One player used Dtail Dnite as a Moon check and it worked well. Even outside that, Dnite 2HKOs with Ice Spinner + E-Speed, or two Tera Normal E-Speeds. Depending on the matchup, trading Multiscale away to handle Moon should be fine. Just be mindful about the rare Tera Ghost.

IMG_8870.png
PhysD Garg can trade with Moon or 1v1 with Tera Fairy. Pre-Tera Garg also lives a +1 EQ after rocks.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Garganacl: 282-334 (69.8 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

It also does well into DD Taunt.

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Ting-Lu can Whirlwind non-Taunt variants out or chip it in range of priority with Ruination.

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Weavile doesn’t eat a +1 hit, but it can rkill it after Moon gets chipped into range which isn’t hard to do in a game-to-game basis.

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Perhaps the closest to being a hard check. Living a hit at full and either threatening to cripple with T-Wave or Sticky Barb.

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Corv can live a hit and chip with RH + U-Turn for its teammates.

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Mid mon. Skarm beats non-Taunt variants.

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It doesn’t live a +1 Knock, nor does it like to switch in, but it can rkill with Bullet Punch. CB Tera Steel BP also outright kills this after a bit of chip.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 286-338 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

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Ditch the old Zapdos spread. Go full-out with physical bulk since you avoid a 2HKO from Tusk Ice Spinner anyways and it has far more benefits like avoiding an OHKO from +2 Tera Dark Val and more importantly, living a +1 Knock from Moon.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 261-307 (67.9 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Though you lose Boots, Zapdos can trade with Moon to get off a T-Wave or lucky Static proc. For Taunt Moon you can always run Discharge which can still land consistent paralysis.

Moltres is the same except burns are much more damaging to Moon.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 285-336 (74.4 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

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Vs non-Taunt variants, G-Weez does well into it if you opt to run Levitate. It eats any +1 hit and threatens with Wisp.

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Tankchomp is pretty unexplored in the meta. RH + Rough Skin punishes physical attackers or U-Turn spam all while providing Spikes and a phazer to the team. Basically a faster more physically-oriented Ting-Lu with a free Helmet. Chomp also outright checks Moon, always tanking a +1 hit and Dtailing it out.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Garchomp: 282-333 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

I am actually curious about Adamant Moon though. What does it OHKO or 2HKO that Jolly doesn’t?
 

Duck Chris

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This weekend in Smogon Tournaments

in Smogon Tour
Week 7 of smogon tour wrapped up with 3 SV live tours.
Friday: won by Stareal
:Darkrai::Skeledirge::Iron Treads::Iron Valiant::Dragonite::Ogerpon-Wellspring: - Replay (do not watch)
:Iron Crown::Dragapult::Great Tusk::Garganacl::Dragonite::Hoopa-Unbound: - Replay
:Iron Moth::Iron Valiant::Kingambit::Hatterene::Landorus-Therian::Dragonite: - Replay
:Rillaboom::Hawlucha::Gholdengo::Ogerpon-Wellspring::Great Tusk::Garganacl: - Replay
Some cool offence teams here notably some garganacl usage which I think is great on grassy terrain.
Saturday: won by Finchinator
:Raging Bolt::Zamazenta::Landorus-Therian::Deoxys-Speed::Kingambit::Glimmora: - Replay
:Gholdengo::Slowking-Galar::Ting-Lu::Skarmory::Zamazenta::Walking Wake: - Replay
Good mix of stuff here with a balance team and an almost-HO team. Walking wake is a solid pick imo
Sunday: won by Kaif
:Gholdengo::Clefable::Garganacl::Great Tusk::Dragapult::Skarmory: - Replay
:Glimmora::Dragapult::Ogerpon-Wellspring::Great Tusk::Gouging Fire::Kingambit: - Replay
Another similar mix of HO and balance rounds out the week for Kaif. Solid teams and a solid victory.

This wraps up the SV portion of the smogon tour regular season, with the top 3 SV finishers also holding the top 3 overall spots in the tour: Vert, Ahsan-219, and Stareal, all with over 20 points. Other strong finishers include Jytcambell (18), Zokuru (17), Empo (17), and Fabriise (17). Two more weeks of live tours in SM and SS and then we are on to playoffs.

in World Cup of Pokemon
A few games happened in the first weekend including some SV OU, leaving the following teams with a head start. The full qualifying round is 3 weeks total so more to come soon.
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in OU Spring Seasonal
Round 8 concluded with another 8 players being knocked out leaving only 24 remaining. Check the full thread for replays but here is one I thought was fun.
knexhawk :Jirachi::Dondozo::Gliscor::Blissey::Talonflame::Toxapex: vs Antonazz :Ogerpon-Wellspring::Landorus-Therian::Slowking-Galar::Raging Bolt::Kingambit::Cinderace:
 
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Would be happy to see Moon go, but eh, not sure whether I'd call it broken. For every game I've seen / played where moon is able to get a game-winning sweep, there are just as many games where it winds up doing nothing. One of those mons thats really good, but feels very inconsistent - like 90% of the top tiers tbf lmao. It might be oppressive vs bulky offense teams with that Brick Break set, but even then, they have some solid tools to combat it between ESpeed Nite, Lando-T (kinda....) Tera Fairy Gambit, and a well played Zamasenta, as well as other options like Scarf Meowscarada (which is a pretty underrated revenge killer), Scizor, etc. That being said, in terms of mons to account for, it probably is one of the bigger hassles since its so fast and Booster jacks up its damage. In terms of low-tier mon gatekeepers, it is also one of the biggest ones (Although... a good amount of low tier high def mons like Pechurant, Duraludon, and even Tauros-P do an ok job emergency checking it with Tera Fairy which is cool). I also lowkey think it might be one of the most underexplored mons in the meta. The only set I see is booster Attack DD on HO (which is Tera Flying 90% of the time but I've also seen Tera Ghost), which is no doubt great, but surely some other sets should fit on slower paced playstyles, right? Maybe with other items like Black Glasses / Boots and other Tera types like Steel, Water, or Fairy.
I feel pretty similarly to you but also weirdly disagree with you in that I am not sure if I wanna see Moon go but completely understand why he feels so oppressive to so many people. Moon can even put in work when it feels like he doesn't sweep teams outright. Knock itself is such a brainless move to click against just about anything and it is pretty strong too. I often use him as midgame breaker if he doesn't sweep teams. Even if he achieved zero kills, (which is really rare for me), your opponent will have used tera against Moon(cause it is that terrifying) and got good chip off of let's say Tusk and that is already enough.

Also something besides the point, smart Dozo players will never directly hard switch to Moon. They fear getting knocked which can be pretty much crippling against the rest of the team. I have also seen Dozo's teching in avalance, I assume specifically for Moon.

About Lowtier mon doing decently against Moon, I wanna add Klefki in the mix. Taunt variants get beaten handily, Eq variants beat it but it can take one unboosted hit and OHKO back with play rough and if it ever Teras, it will risk getting para'd.

It is a rainy day outside where I am so i think posting this is perfect.
I have recently build a hazard stack rain team with Klefki as a rain setter. https://pokepast.es/ed4758c6fad7bfc1
It frees up Pelipper as a breaker( can do stuff like 2HKOing G-Slowking if it isn't AV, it can also serve as backup rain setter(both of of them). You can use Pelipper to break or chip problem mons like Prim. The oppoenent is usually taken off guard having to then deal with a secondary setter. The team also auto wins against almost every sun team(or atleast I have never lost to a sun team with this squad) but struggles against stall.

That said you still have to have good managing skills with your mons HP cause Zama, Gambit, Prim and the like are still threatning and any chip on you is permanent. Pretty difficult to pilot so can't promise you an easy time since rain just sucks ass in this meta but it can work.
 
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Also something besides the point, smart Dozo players will never directly hard switch to Moon. They fear getting knocked which can be pretty much crippling against the rest of the team. I have also seen Dozo's teching in avalance, I assume specifically for Moon.
Regarding Dozo’s Avalanche, getting the 2HKO on Moon is a big upside. It also beats Roost Dnite and does ~35% to Dragapult on the switch in so that Dozo isn’t a total chump vs them.
 
Respect the post, but I'll go over the reasons why these things are not nearly as good of checks to moon as you say. Most of them are "knock cripples them for the rest of the game", which is something a lot of other offensive threats cannot do.

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Lando always lives a DD-boosted hit. It chips Moon with U-Turn and Helmet to put it in range of priority like Sucker, Clap, E-Speed, etc. Lando also can tech Rock Tomb/Stone Edge to check it on its own.
Offensive lando can die to a +1 knock off, but defensive lando always does live. However, it has to lose its item in return, which is big as lando now cannot be switching in as easily to get chip.
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Gliscor gets off a Toxic vs non-Taunt variants. Like Lando, it can U-Turn into something like Weavile.
U-turn doesn't even show up in the April statistics, its not used all that often. Technically, it can get a toxic off, but moon can just dd in its face to get to +2 since it can't do much to it otherwise (e-quake does 46% max, so it can threaten a 2hit ko potentially but it will most likely die in return), which something is going to have to take and its not going to like it due to being a really powerful move.
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R-Bolt can Tera Fairy into an incoming EQ. It checks Taunt DD very nicely. It also punishes Tera Flying with Thunderclap. Even Adamant Knock doesn’t scratch this.
Tera'ing shouldn't really be your resort, but bolt still can't take an e-q well as it is 2hit-ko'd by it. The raging bolt does threaten a ko in return with d-pulse, but a mon that has to tera AND still takes massive damage even then isn't really a good answer. Does well against taunt DD, but still has to take big damage.
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Zama can Tera Steel and Roar the Roaring Moon out. Defensive Tera is not usually an argument, but with something that only fits on HO, I think its fair. Specially since it doesn’t hinder Zama much. Mirror Herb Zama also completely destroys this.
Mirror Herb does destroy this, but that's at 4% usage, so not common. I do think that this isn't really an arguement, since Zama is able to fit on more than HO, its quite good on balance as a blanket physical check and a late game wincon (I think this is what you are saying, but if you are talking about moon it can also be used on balance as a late game wincon too). If it doesn't tera, yeah, it just goes bye bye, since +1 acro 2hit kos.
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Mola can fish for burns or pivot into R-Bolt, Weavile, Lando, Dnite, or Gambit. Not actually that reliable.
Admitted this isn't reliable. Mola is actually moon setup tbh. Like, just dd on it, they get a burn but you can dd so the burn is nullified, which is great. Also relies on a really inconsistent burn chance, 30% is not reliable enough.
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One player used Dtail Dnite as a Moon check and it worked well. Even outside that, Dnite 2HKOs with Ice Spinner + E-Speed, or two Tera Normal E-Speeds. Depending on the matchup, trading Multiscale away to handle Moon should be fine. Just be mindful about the rare Tera Ghost.
Does win, but has to then start sweeping as its multiscale is broken and its boots are off. But it can't do much other than get an e-speed off.
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PhysD Garg can trade with Moon or 1v1 with Tera Fairy. Pre-Tera Garg also lives a +1 EQ after rocks.
PhysD Garg does trade with moon, but it is going to be crippled by knock, as its lefties are part of the reason it can do its bs. The more normal Garg set, Sp.D Garg, does not live a +1 EQ after rocks, which is big.
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Ting-Lu can Whirlwind non-Taunt variants out or chip it in range of priority with Ruination.
Moon knocks off Ting's item, which is something Ting hates unless it is running red card. No lefties means it has no recovery, making every bit of chip worth it, while no HDB means it can't switch in with hazards up as often. Ting lu also does not like taking +1 hits from moon, even +1 knock does 25% min and acro is a 3hit ko. It can phaze out moon or chip it into priority range, but not at a severe cost to it.
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Weavile doesn’t eat a +1 hit, but it can rkill it after Moon gets chipped into range which isn’t hard to do in a game-to-game basis.
Yes, weavile can revenge kill it, but you have to use another mon to chip it into range, which is around 45% to consistently kill. This is a big ask to have, which while possible is going to eat up your resources a lot. You can tera ice, but you still have to get it to 60% hp, doable but again a big ask. Something like toxic gliscor + weavile can work, but you are giving up gliscor in order for weavile to do its job.
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Perhaps the closest to being a hard check. Living a hit at full and either threatening to cripple with T-Wave or Sticky Barb.
Clefable is a bad matchup to moon, but it can't take 2 +1 moon acros as it is ko'd. As you said, it can win, but in a game where clef is going to be chipped, it can lose. Even with 20% chip, not something that I think is hard to acheive, then it is kod by +1 tera flying acro.
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Corv can live a hit and chip with RH + U-Turn for its teammates.
Yes, it can live a hit, but it is going to have to take big damage, +1 knock does 56% min, and lose its rocky helmet, meaning its only doing that chip once. That is doing about 50%, which as shown above, is not enough for weavile ice shard to consistently ko unless they tera ice. It can then come in again to bp, but that means something else is ko'd and corv is basically dead.
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Mid mon. Skarm beats non-Taunt variants.
Does beat it. Also, please start using bb skarm. Like, iron defensing already invites so many things, so attacking is much better. I'll provide a sample below. Also interested in drill run skarm, which can threaten bolt for about 25% min, which is nice.
Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Body Press
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It doesn’t live a +1 Knock, nor does it like to switch in, but it can rkill with Bullet Punch. CB Tera Steel BP also outright kills this after a bit of chip
Has to be a revenge killer, meaning that something else is already ko'd, but is a really good revenge killer, so I'll give you that.
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Ditch the old Zapdos spread. Go full-out with physical bulk since you avoid a 2HKO from Tusk Ice Spinner anyways and it has far more benefits like avoiding an OHKO from +2 Tera Dark Val and more importantly, living a +1 Knock from Moon.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 261-307 (67.9 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Though you lose Boots, Zapdos can trade with Moon to get off a T-Wave or lucky Static proc. For Taunt Moon you can always run Discharge which can still land consistent paralysis.

Moltres is the same except burns are much more damaging to Moon.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 285-336 (74.4 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I mean, they are so crippled by moon knock it is not even funny. Zap can deal with knock but will not like it very much, but moltres basically just rolls over and gives up. Also you don't need to tera in order to deal with molt, +1 knock deals pleanty damage to it.
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 252-297 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These are mons that have to rely on a 30% proc chance in order to win, which is not very reliable.
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Vs non-Taunt variants, G-Weez does well into it if you opt to run Levitate. It eats any +1 hit and threatens with Wisp.
Depends on what set it is running, yes it can always live a +1 attack, but on a mon with no reliable recovery, that is big, and then having to rely on 85% accuracy is not good. On levitate variants, +1 acro 2hit kos. Strange steam does threaten an OHKO back, so that is an option.
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Tankchomp is pretty unexplored in the meta. RH + Rough Skin punishes physical attackers or U-Turn spam all while providing Spikes and a phazer to the team. Basically a faster more physically-oriented Ting-Lu with a free Helmet. Chomp also outright checks Moon, always tanking a +1 hit and Dtailing it out.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Garchomp: 282-333 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Garchomp does check it (I'm more interested in sweeper chomp, liquidation is a move that other grounds besides clod and technically gliscor who has crabhammer, don't have), but it still is going to get its item knocked off.

Overall, these mons can try to check moon, but they either have to have lots of things go right for them, or are going to be crippled for the rest of the match. Again, I do think that we should experiment more with moon, it can do more than just DD and 3A or 2A and taunt. Yes, these sets don't replicate the exact things moon is doing now, but that's not the point. It's to diversify its sets which will threaten different things in the meta.
 
ok, no matter whether you think roaring moon is banworthy or not, can we all agree that the thing is broken? i mean, look at it. base 139 attack and base 119 speed alone is already pushing the levels of what should be acceptable in any reasonable meta without megas in it, and that's before you factor in dragon dance and the automatic consequence-free life orb boost that also lets it knock absorb and boosts acrobatics. and the fact that its main stab option is one of the best single attacks in the game and allows it to make progress against stall, a playstyle that setup sweepers should not be able to make meaningful progress against if they're as good a wincon as moon is. and its actually good special bulk and access to recovery. this shit is not a balanced mon and the only reason it doesn't appear completely cuckoo bananas is because the entire rest of this mickey mouse gen is crammed full of broken mons too. i'm close to suggesting we just ban every fucking mon with a dex number over like 800 or so and call it a day
 
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i'm close to suggesting we just ban every fucking mon with a dex number over like 800 or so and call it a day
What are you suggesting? we play actual fucking pokemon and not mash snowy foreshadowing and *boosting move #7* to let my *wallbreaker 67* to click its *2HK move #8* to decimate teams? We have 'fun' here. And before you even fucking try to clapback against me, let me just sa--DaddyBuzzwole used Suckerpunch! It's super effective!
 
What are you suggesting? we play actual fucking pokemon and not mash snowy foreshadowing and *boosting move #7* to let my *wallbreaker 67* to click its *2HK move #8* to decimate teams? We have 'fun' here. And before you even fucking try to clapback against me, let me just sa--DaddyBuzzwole used Suckerpunch! It's super effective!
"snowy foreshadowing" is the second funniest thing i've ever heard someone call chilly reception, and it's only the second funniest because the official japanese name basically translates to "bad joke" and the idea of someone telling a joke so shitty it literally alters the weather is hilarious to me
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor
Offensive lando can die to a +1 knock off, but defensive lando always does live. However, it has to lose its item in return, which is big as lando now cannot be switching in as easily to get chip.

U-turn doesn't even show up in the April statistics, its not used all that often. Technically, it can get a toxic off, but moon can just dd in its face to get to +2 since it can't do much to it otherwise (e-quake does 46% max, so it can threaten a 2hit ko potentially but it will most likely die in return), which something is going to have to take and its not going to like it due to being a really powerful move.

Tera'ing shouldn't really be your resort, but bolt still can't take an e-q well as it is 2hit-ko'd by it. The raging bolt does threaten a ko in return with d-pulse, but a mon that has to tera AND still takes massive damage even then isn't really a good answer. Does well against taunt DD, but still has to take big damage.

Mirror Herb does destroy this, but that's at 4% usage, so not common. I do think that this isn't really an arguement, since Zama is able to fit on more than HO, its quite good on balance as a blanket physical check and a late game wincon (I think this is what you are saying, but if you are talking about moon it can also be used on balance as a late game wincon too). If it doesn't tera, yeah, it just goes bye bye, since +1 acro 2hit kos.

Admitted this isn't reliable. Mola is actually moon setup tbh. Like, just dd on it, they get a burn but you can dd so the burn is nullified, which is great. Also relies on a really inconsistent burn chance, 30% is not reliable enough.

Does win, but has to then start sweeping as its multiscale is broken and its boots are off. But it can't do much other than get an e-speed off.

PhysD Garg does trade with moon, but it is going to be crippled by knock, as its lefties are part of the reason it can do its bs. The more normal Garg set, Sp.D Garg, does not live a +1 EQ after rocks, which is big.

Moon knocks off Ting's item, which is something Ting hates unless it is running red card. No lefties means it has no recovery, making every bit of chip worth it, while no HDB means it can't switch in with hazards up as often. Ting lu also does not like taking +1 hits from moon, even +1 knock does 25% min and acro is a 3hit ko. It can phaze out moon or chip it into priority range, but not at a severe cost to it.

Yes, weavile can revenge kill it, but you have to use another mon to chip it into range, which is around 45% to consistently kill. This is a big ask to have, which while possible is going to eat up your resources a lot. You can tera ice, but you still have to get it to 60% hp, doable but again a big ask. Something like toxic gliscor + weavile can work, but you are giving up gliscor in order for weavile to do its job.

Clefable is a bad matchup to moon, but it can't take 2 +1 moon acros as it is ko'd. As you said, it can win, but in a game where clef is going to be chipped, it can lose. Even with 20% chip, not something that I think is hard to acheive, then it is kod by +1 tera flying acro.

Yes, it can live a hit, but it is going to have to take big damage, +1 knock does 56% min, and lose its rocky helmet, meaning its only doing that chip once. That is doing about 50%, which as shown above, is not enough for weavile ice shard to consistently ko unless they tera ice. It can then come in again to bp, but that means something else is ko'd and corv is basically dead.

Does beat it. Also, please start using bb skarm. Like, iron defensing already invites so many things, so attacking is much better. I'll provide a sample below. Also interested in drill run skarm, which can threaten bolt for about 25% min, which is nice.
Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Body Press

Has to be a revenge killer, meaning that something else is already ko'd, but is a really good revenge killer, so I'll give you that.

I mean, they are so crippled by moon knock it is not even funny. Zap can deal with knock but will not like it very much, but moltres basically just rolls over and gives up. Also you don't need to tera in order to deal with molt, +1 knock deals pleanty damage to it.
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 252-297 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These are mons that have to rely on a 30% proc chance in order to win, which is not very reliable.

Depends on what set it is running, yes it can always live a +1 attack, but on a mon with no reliable recovery, that is big, and then having to rely on 85% accuracy is not good. On levitate variants, +1 acro 2hit kos. Strange steam does threaten an OHKO back, so that is an option.

Garchomp does check it (I'm more interested in sweeper chomp, liquidation is a move that other grounds besides clod and technically gliscor who has crabhammer, don't have), but it still is going to get its item knocked off.

Overall, these mons can try to check moon, but they either have to have lots of things go right for them, or are going to be crippled for the rest of the match. Again, I do think that we should experiment more with moon, it can do more than just DD and 3A or 2A and taunt. Yes, these sets don't replicate the exact things moon is doing now, but that's not the point. It's to diversify its sets which will threaten different things in the meta.
Most of your arguments revolve around an option being uncommon (which does not = unviable) or that a Pokemon is essentially killed due to being knocked. The line of thinking around the second option is typically wrong, especially since while you are usually trading 1 v 1 with Moon, they usually will have to burn Tera to gain stab Acro, and at maximum with proper play will only be able to get one kill, as well as the defensive player gaining switch initiative with a sack.

There's also a few additional erroneous points:


Offensive lando can die to a +1 knock off, but defensive lando always does live. However, it has to lose its item in return, which is big as lando now cannot be switching in as easily to get chip.
Moon doesn't get to +1 because of Intimidate, unless you're implying that Moon just goes for a second DD in front of Landorus, which means it either takes heavy chip to U-Turn, or is forced to burn it's Tera. Lando losing Helmet is not super consequential in the grand scheme of things, especially if it's deciding to trade it for a kill on Moon.

U-turn doesn't even show up in the April statistics, its not used all that often. Technically, it can get a toxic off, but moon can just dd in its face to get to +2 since it can't do much to it otherwise (e-quake does 46% max, so it can threaten a 2hit ko potentially but it will most likely die in return), which something is going to have to take and its not going to like it due to being a really powerful move.
Ignoring the usage argument, Toxic is a very reliable way to get rid of non-taunt Moon. The combination of Protect stalling + a Dark resist can be very efficient in removing Moon, usually resulting in it not being able to get more than 1 kill, which should be the goal.

Moon knocks off Ting's item, which is something Ting hates unless it is running red card. No lefties means it has no recovery, making every bit of chip worth it, while no HDB means it can't switch in with hazards up as often. Ting lu also does not like taking +1 hits from moon, even +1 knock does 25% min and acro is a 3hit ko. It can phaze out moon or chip it into priority range, but not at a severe cost to it.
Ting is going to be the knock absorber on the vast majority of Hazard stacks, the main archetype it's ran on, on these structures Ting's literal job is to get hazards up + neutralise a setup sweeper or two. It's in a way almost playing the role of a suicide lead, but typically later in the match, getting knocked is not the end of the world. Ting is entirely happy getting hazards up + trading with Moon.

Yes, weavile can revenge kill it, but you have to use another mon to chip it into range, which is around 45% to consistently kill. This is a big ask to have, which while possible is going to eat up your resources a lot. You can tera ice, but you still have to get it to 60% hp, doable but again a big ask. Something like toxic gliscor + weavile can work, but you are giving up gliscor in order for weavile to do its job.
Considering hazards, getting a mon to do 43% is fairly simple, it's in no way a big ask essentially when combined with Tera Ice. It's especially able to do this when combined with any of the options on this list.

Generally your damage ranges don't consider rocks, which are typically going to be able to be setup against HO, and all the options above are either going to be able to chip it enough to revenge kill safely or even win the 1v1 and act as a safe sack to pivot, which is especially useful in SV OU.
 
Moon doesn't get to +1 because of Intimidate, unless you're implying that Moon just goes for a second DD in front of Landorus, which means it either takes heavy chip to U-Turn, or is forced to burn it's Tera. Lando losing Helmet is not super consequential in the grand scheme of things, especially if it's deciding to trade it for a kill on Moon.
Yeah, I honestly don't know why anyone using Moon wouldn't just DD and potentially Tera in Lando's face. Lando-T can at most slow down physical setup sweepers. A single +1 hit from Moon can basically ensure that T can die to even one more neutral hit at +0. The more T switches around to try to Initimidate Moon, the more it gets off chip on your team and/or more DDs. And the math says T should only be able to switch in about twice before dying.

Moon using Tera here also isn't as much of a drawback considering anyone bringing in Moon, particularly when they have a consumable item like BE, is trying to bring it in to sweep or at least punch holes in the opposing team. If a player doesn't do this, they are likely either misusing Moon or losing anyways. If they made the correct calculation to bring it out, Lando-T probably isn't in much of a position to stop it from getting more than 1 kill. On the other hand, trading Tera can be bad for the opposing team if Moon managed to punch holes in it.

Ignoring the usage argument, Toxic is a very reliable way to get rid of non-taunt Moon. The combination of Protect stalling + a Dark resist can be very efficient in removing Moon, usually resulting in it not being able to get more than 1 kill, which should be the goal.
Toxic + Protect is 2 slots. Most Gliscor are going to want to run a hazard and an attack (usually EQ) or SD and 2 attacks. There is no room to run U-Turn on most of those sets. Usage by itself isn't an argument, but there is a reason why the usage for a good move like U-Turn is so low on Gliscor. If you have to run a suboptimal Gliscor just to improve the matchup against Roaring Moon, that itself would indicate a problem.

Moon can also DD on the predicted Protect since Toxic/Protect on Gliscor is extremely telegraphed. Roaring Moon could very easily be at + 2 or even +3 by the end of it's exchange with Gliscor with several more Toxic turns left until it dies. Another mon or two could die or at least take very heavy chip.

And this already assumes you aren't up against Taunt Moon, which you probably don't have time to scout on the first entry since you are concerned about DD sweeps. It also assumes you aren't specially defensive Gliscor, which will guaranteed die in 1 shot to +2 Tera Flying Acrobatics and also has a chance to be 1HKO'd by +2 Knock Off not even counting potential rocks. If Moon is BE attack, it will be like +2 by the time Gliscor even switches in. This all seems very situational and dicey for even a better case scenario.

Ting is going to be the knock absorber on the vast majority of Hazard stacks, the main archetype it's ran on, on these structures Ting's literal job is to get hazards up + neutralise a setup sweeper or two. It's in a way almost playing the role of a suicide lead, but typically later in the match, getting knocked is not the end of the world. Ting is entirely happy getting hazards up + trading with Moon.
This point I agree with. Phasing is good against Moon. Roaring Moon is not as helpless as some might say after being phased out. It can still be threatening with DD. It's just not accelerated by a turn because of BE. In general, phasing is of increased importance this gen because of Booster Energy.
 

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