Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

Trying to find a safe setup opportunity with PorgyZ can be rough. Middling Speed tier, awful bulk, basically no resistances. You're very reliant on trying to threaten out something with your power. In the case of something like Tusk, you'd want to make sure they wouldn't have anything to wall PorgyZ after it sets up and ensure they'd still want to keep their Tusk healthy (e.g. you have a Kingambit in the back). This guy still struggles as a result of these faults though.
Yeah, you'll probably have to wait for it to drop a bit so you can use Tera Porygon-Z before it inevitably becomes a permanent fixture in some BL
 
Would choice scarf porygon-z work? It would solve the speed issue and it did work on a Gen 4 team I used. Granted that is Gen 4, where Garchomp is banned so that isn't much. I don't know if the power loss would be too much, so you could maybe use download and hope for a sp.A boost, while losing a bit of power on stab.
Possibly. There are other better Scarf users for sure, but there are also better lategame cleaners than PorgyZ anyways. Note you would be able to get the jump on Adamant +1 Gouging Fire, but not the Jolly variants.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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Okay so I started playing the DLC2 meta just recently due to how I've been stuck with DLC1 meta for OUPL. So a couple of things and my opinions will definitely grow a bit more when I feel confident in the tier but what I will say is a few things I've noticed.

People are saying that this meta is balanced, I don't see it at all to be honest the DLC1 meta was much more balanced and that in itself was a shitshow survey wise averaging around a 6/10. There's no way that what we currently have right now with essentially the turtle being banned shows its much better. We still need a lot of work on this tier and everyone is just suffering from new toy syndrome but maybe in a month people will be more inclined to just say something shouldn't be in the tier.

I think there's more broken things then what I'm about to list but I'm not going to talk about it until I'm more confident in my thoughts.

:Archaludon: - This thing is easily an OU staple like it's actually incredibly good under rain, its ability as well is what I think puts it over the top under rain. You can run Assault Vest and power up your stats 2 different ways by being hit with anything or by using Electroshot. Do I think this needs to be banned, no but do I think it showed by on the radar absolutely.

:Roaring-Moon: - Yeah if there was something that needs to get thrown out its this mon it's the same argument I had before with it Knock Off + Proto Boost Attack + Dragon Dance is just too easy with the option to tera out. This is the only mon objectively I think that needs to get banned I don't mind doing another suspect.

Iron Boulder I think also needs to be suspected down the line, it's way too fast and bulky as well where you can take out its BAD type and replace it with a decent one and just continue to swords dance or even setup behind a substitute if you ever so choose to.
 
Possibly. There are other better Scarf users for sure, but there are also better lategame cleaners than PorgyZ anyways. Note you would be able to get the jump on Adamant +1 Gouging Fire, but not the Jolly variants.
Yeah, it probably would be better to just use valiant. It has insane coverage, higher speed and actual stabs. Porygon-Z would be much better if it had either +10 spA or +10 speed.

Also, upper hand on quaquaval is so funny because you can switch on rillaboom and do 30 ish percent to them.

People are saying that this meta is balanced, I don't see it at all to be honest the DLC1 meta was much more balanced and that in itself was a shitshow survey wise averaging around a 6/10. There's no way that what we currently have right now with essentially the turtle being banned shows its much better. We still need a lot of work on this tier and everyone is just suffering from new toy syndrome but maybe in a month people will be more inclined to just say something shouldn't be in the tier.
Although I agree that the meta still needs work potentially, this meta is way better than DLC1. Like, its actually fun to play with and their are no clear "this needs to be banned instantly" now. Sure, Deo-S and roaring moon are potential suspects, but they aren't so egregious right now. If you genuinely think that DLC1 is better, I have to respectfully disagree. I'm able to run stuff like CB araquanid and others have used stuff like comfey and they aren't complete jokes, tell me that isn't a sign of a somewhat balanced metagame.
 
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How have you guys been preparing for iron boulder? It’s definitely been putting in work against me recently
Gliscor toxik
Balloon ghold
Skarmory

(Defensive Tusk/Kingambit/Rillaboom/Paradox Raiku depending on the set)
Lando/Chomp but Gliscor is better
Some players use scarf dragapult (but I hate this set)

Iron boulder needs tera + a set up oppurtunity, so you can weaken it during the set up turn.
Without set up, it's just a revenge killer easy to beat.

I find it hard to set up iron boulder
 
:Archaludon: - This thing is easily an OU staple like it's actually incredibly good under rain, its ability as well is what I think puts it over the top under rain. You can run Assault Vest and power up your stats 2 different ways by being hit with anything or by using Electroshot. Do I think this needs to be banned, no but do I think it showed by on the radar absolutely.
i don't really agree that it should even be on the radar. archaludon is really good, in rain or out of it, and an ou staple for sure, but i've never felt it to be oppressive or unbeatable. it's got a lot of trouble deciding on its item—the av sets really miss the longevity that the lefties sets provide, the lefties sets hate not having the special bulk that av gives, and they both get worn down by hazards more than they're comfortable with because they lack boots. its only two weaknesses also happen to be the stabs of great tusk, which is still one of the best, most common, and most consistent mons in the tier, and that can cause a lot of trouble for iron bridge. being a steel-type that's neutral to dragon and fairy and specially frail is also pretty scary in a world of raging bolt, walking wake, kyurem, dragapult, latios, enamorus, iron valiant, and possibly primarina and hydrapple—it's kind of wanting for switch-in opportunities in a decent amount of matchups, even though it can very easily start wrecking shit when it gets one
 

njnp

We don't play this game to lose.
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When Magearna :Magearna:was around, there was an outcry that we should consider suspecting light clay/restrict screens.

When Baxcalibur :Baxcalibur:was around, there was an outcry that we should consider suspecting Ninetales-A/restrict veil.

When Sneasler :Sneasler:was around, there was an outcry that we should consider suspecting Rillaboom.

In each case presented once the Pokemon (Magearna, Baxcalibur, Sneasler) were removed from the tier that caused said problem, these play styles became very balanced.

I won’t be surprised if calls to suspect/restrict booster energy start to rise as we have an exorbitant amount of Booster Energy abusers now.

This post simply hopes to get ahead of the curve and ask the community to focus on the Pokemon that you feel are abhorrent and not call for action on Booster Energy.

Happy Holidays :heart:
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
i don't really agree that it should even be on the radar. archaludon is really good, in rain or out of it, and an ou staple for sure, but i've never felt it to be oppressive or unbeatable. it's got a lot of trouble deciding on its item—the av sets really miss the longevity that the lefties sets provide, the lefties sets hate not having the special bulk that av gives, and they both get worn down by hazards more than they're comfortable with because they lack boots. its only two weaknesses also happen to be the stabs of great tusk, which is still one of the best, most common, and most consistent mons in the tier, and that can cause a lot of trouble for iron bridge. being a steel-type that's neutral to dragon and fairy and specially frail is also pretty scary in a world of raging bolt, walking wake, kyurem, dragapult, latios, enamorus, iron valiant, and possibly primarina and hydrapple—it's kind of wanting for switch-in opportunities in a decent amount of matchups, even though it can very easily start wrecking shit when it gets one
Personally I think something being added to be a Rain must IMO should be just on the radar, there's been multiple things on the radar that never have been suspected but it just puts the community aware. As I said in the initial post if it were to be voted on a suspect I would vote DNB, I feel like when put on the perfect team for support it can get really annoying to stop, maybe wish support maybe grassy terrain support, under rain of course.
 
When Magearna :Magearna:was around, there was an outcry that we should consider suspecting light clay/restrict screens.

When Baxcalibur :Baxcalibur:was around, there was an outcry that we should consider suspecting Ninetales-A/restrict veil.

When Sneasler :Sneasler:was around, there was an outcry that we should consider suspecting Rillaboom.

In each case presented once the Pokemon (Magearna, Baxcalibur, Sneasler) were removed from the tier that caused said problem, these play styles became very balanced.

I won’t be surprised if calls to suspect/restrict booster energy start to rise as we have an exorbitant amount of Booster Energy abusers now.

This post simply hopes to get ahead of the curve and ask the community to focus on the Pokemon that you feel are abhorrent and not call for action on Booster Energy.

Happy Holidays :heart:
I mean, I’m not opposed to axing Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, and Iron Boulder. I would just think for the sake of preserving Pokemon we could just get rid of the item.
 
How have you guys been preparing for iron boulder? It’s definitely been putting in work against me recently
Scizor's a decent answer that is not that difficult to splash in, as it also fucks over Val, Rillaboom, etc. - Quagsire is more niche but it is a rock-hard counter

-

I considered writing my thoughts on the meta but laziness got the best of me, so I'll be going now and enjoy some time with my family.

Merry Christmas everyone!
 
When Magearna :Magearna:was around, there was an outcry that we should consider suspecting light clay/restrict screens.

When Baxcalibur :Baxcalibur:was around, there was an outcry that we should consider suspecting Ninetales-A/restrict veil.

When Sneasler :Sneasler:was around, there was an outcry that we should consider suspecting Rillaboom.

In each case presented once the Pokemon (Magearna, Baxcalibur, Sneasler) were removed from the tier that caused said problem, these play styles became very balanced.

I won’t be surprised if calls to suspect/restrict booster energy start to rise as we have an exorbitant amount of Booster Energy abusers now.

This post simply hopes to get ahead of the curve and ask the community to focus on the Pokemon that you feel are abhorrent and not call for action on Booster Energy.

Happy Holidays :heart:
I will bet Monopoly Money that people will complain about Raging Bolt first out of Past Paradoxes, and Iron Boulder out of the Future Paradoxes
 

658Greninja

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Boulder is great, but I find it overhyped.

Boulder has a terrible defensive typing, and without Tera, it is very easy to rkill with Glide + Sucker.

Boulder also has a 4MSS. CC to guarantee an OHKO on bulky Gambit and also hit Ting-Lu. Zen Headbutt to hit defensive Tusk and Zama. EQ for Ghold. Taunt to shit on Skarm. This becomes a legit issue in practice. Skarm and Ting-Lu for example are commonly paired with each other.

The tier does not lack physical walls. Not just Skarm, but PhysD Tusk, PhysD Ghold, Lando, Gliscor, Hydrapple, Dozo, Mola, etc.

I don’t find Booster to be banworthy. Outside of Moon, nothing is pushed too far by the item (Flutter Mane and Bundle were broken either way).

The closest ones I could think of are Valiant and Gfire, even then, I don’t find them actually broken or unhealthy. Tusk isn’t breaking games with Booster and if Booster was broken, how come stuff like Jugulis or Thorns aren’t considered “uncompetitive”? Just something to consider before banning an entire item.

Anyways, Happy Holidays y’all.
 
When Sneasler :Sneasler:was around, there was an outcry that we should consider suspecting Rillaboom.
I mean this in the nicest way possible, anyone who cried to suspect Rillaboom when sneasler was around needs to do some introspection and realize that they are dumber than me, the guy who tried running a pre-home team in DLC2
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
Booster Energy always felt like a confusing ban to me. The only paradoxes so far it ever pushed to a metaphorical breaking point were Roaring Moon and *maybe* Iron Valiant if you squint really really hard and have an extremely liberal stance on bans. Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle were absurd with or without booster energy (though it was incorrectly coded when Flutter was in the tier, I doubt it would shift the needle much on how absurd it is). Iron Valiant itself has been fine for a long time imo.

Outside of Roaring Moon, the only mon that makes booster energy core to its bustedness is Iron Boulder, which while good isn’t so obviously broken we need to quickban it right now. It feels like a half measure to cut out “annoying” parts of the meta. People don’t like losing to a booster valiant or moth in the back. It is what helps push Roaring Moon and Iron Boulder to be borderline cases. I feel like it’s just a short sighted attempt to limit collateral that causes more collateral.

Personally, I think this meta is pretty balanced. It’s very high power level, but for the most part things feel very manageable. The tier feels very diverse and HO has ebbed away now that the meta is settling a bit. I think this is easily the most balanced meta that OU has seen since HOME. I like bulky offense, HO, weather, veil, and balance all being viable. Is it a high power metagame? Sure, but everything has kinda settled into a nice place for the most part that I am content with. Mons I know others fine tiresome like :Serperior: or :Entei: :booster energy: I think have settled into the meta nicely. Heck, Deoxys Speed, despite being a top 5 Mon in the tier at worst, is settling into the meta alright.

There are two mons I do have some concerns about. Roaring Moon is first, but enough people have highlighted it that I don’t feel like discussing it in depth. I will say it is not as big a priority to me as Enamorus. Enamorus feels to me like the hardest mon in the tier to handle for BO and Balance. Stellar Tera with Contrary helps it muscle through a lot of bulkier teams, especially with Specs. It feels very constraining in builder, even moreso than Moon has right now.

I don’t think either is a quick ban candidate, but I think both should be the focuses of our discussion going forward.
 
Booster Energy always felt like a confusing ban to me. The only paradoxes so far it ever pushed to a metaphorical breaking point were Roaring Moon and *maybe* Iron Valiant if you squint really really hard and have an extremely liberal stance on bans. Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle were absurd with or without booster energy (though it was incorrectly coded when Flutter was in the tier, I doubt it would shift the needle much on how absurd it is). Iron Valiant itself has been fine for a long time imo.

Outside of Roaring Moon, the only mon that makes booster energy core to its bustedness is Iron Boulder, which while good isn’t so obviously broken we need to quickban it right now. It feels like a half measure to cut out “annoying” parts of the meta. People don’t like losing to a booster valiant or moth in the back. It is what helps push Roaring Moon and Iron Boulder to be borderline cases. I feel like it’s just a short sighted attempt to limit collateral that causes more collateral.

Personally, I think this meta is pretty balanced. It’s very high power level, but for the most part things feel very manageable. The tier feels very diverse and HO has ebbed away now that the meta is settling a bit. I think this is easily the most balanced meta that OU has seen since HOME. I like bulky offense, HO, weather, veil, and balance all being viable. Is it a high power metagame? Sure, but everything has kinda settled into a nice place for the most part that I am content with. Mons I know others fine tiresome like :Serperior: or :Entei: :booster energy: I think have settled into the meta nicely. Heck, Deoxys Speed, despite being a top 5 Mon in the tier at worst, is settling into the meta alright.

There are two mons I do have some concerns about. Roaring Moon is first, but enough people have highlighted it that I don’t feel like discussing it in depth. I will say it is not as big a priority to me as Enamorus. Enamorus feels to me like the hardest mon in the tier to handle for BO and Balance. Stellar Tera with Contrary helps it muscle through a lot of bulkier teams, especially with Specs. It feels very constraining in builder, even moreso than Moon has right now.

I don’t think either is a quick ban candidate, but I think both should be the focuses of our discussion going forward.
The thing about Iron Valiant is that, while fine now, they're liable to become way too much to handle if certain things are banned (namely gholdengo). I could be analyzing this from an entirely wrong, DLC1 based perspective tho, but Iron Valiant is really good and could easily become over the top if gholdengo gholdenGOES
 
the booster energy argument is just the tera argument wearing groucho marx glasses. banning the abusers of the item is preferable to banning the item itself, especially since the only thing that it's inarguably been responsible for breaking in the past is roaring moon—flutter mane is hilariously broken no matter what item you put on it (except iron ball), iron bundle usually ran specs or boots instead because it liked pivoting and that's not conducive to booster at all, and none of the other beasties or bots have been widely recognized as broken. even now, there are people eyeing stuff like bolt and gouging and boulder with suspicion, but the only one of the paradox mons that's being actively complained about instead of saying "hmm, let's keep an eye on that one" is… roaring moon again
Merry Christmas and happy holidays to all of my metagame discussion friends. We have had a crazy year, but it’s been a pleasure. The best to all of you.
merry christmas to you too, finch. and happy hanukkah, but that's already over, so happy… uh… normal-day-except-all-the-restaurants-are-closed?
 
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flutter mane is hilariously broken no matter what item you put on it (except iron ball)
iron ball clause here we come

I'm a little concerned with Roaring Moon's presence in the tier. Looking at the last time Roaring Moon was considered mediocre, people noted its lack of defensive utility, susceptibility to hazards and its reliance on Tera to become the breaker / sweeper it should have been naturally. I don't believe it was Knock Off that made Roaring Moon broken in DLC1 and I don't think it now, but I am thinking about whether it's too much for the tier of if its old weaknesses came come back to haunt it. Especially with the addition of Raging Bolt in the tier, forcing Tera Flying variants into 50/50s.
 
we got iron bundle banned and now ou players are only going to get coal for christmas :/ hope you're happy

I do agree that moon seems kinda nasty. I'd say give everything a week to see if any mon rises to become a quickban threat, otherwise we could maybe talk about moon and deo-s suspect tests in the near future. nothing right now screams broken enough to need a qb, but that may not be the case next month as we get over slapping hydrapple and iron crown onto teams
 
the booster energy argument is just the tera argument wearing groucho marx glasses. banning the abusers of the item is preferable to banning the item itself, especially since the only thing that it's inarguably been responsible for breaking in the past is roaring moon—flutter mane is hilariously broken no matter what item you put on it (except iron ball), iron bundle usually ran specs or boots instead because it liked pivoting and that's not conducive to booster at all, and none of the other beasties or bots have been widely recognized as broken. even now, there are people eyeing stuff like bolt and gouging and boulder with suspicion, but the only one of the paradox mons that's being actively complained about instead of saying "hmm, let's keep an eye on that one" is… roaring moon again

merry christmas to you too, finch. and happy hanukkah, but that's already over, so happy… uh… normal-day-except-all-the-restaurants-are-closed?
If you live in a city with a significant Asian immigrant population, there's a good chance that the ethnic restaurants are open, and also that many-to-most of the customers are either immigrants or Jewish.

Your stomach is welcome.
 


Flygon
View attachment 583147
Flygon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail​

Like Morpeko, I went into a little more detail about Flygon in that same post but to keep it brief - Flygon is a stupendous anti-meta pick thanks to priority First Impression + U-Turn nailing a huge portion of the meta super effectively while synergizing quite well with STAB Earthquake. STAB Dragon Tail is great for phasing and allows you to run negative priority as an additional layer of speed control against aggravating archetypes. Assault Vest is to weather some of the bonkers special attacks flying around the tier right now and pairs well with Levitate + Tera Bug for a Fighting-resist in addition to adding STAB to First Impression + U-Turn. Great mon all around, and in my opinion feels better to use than Garchomp (who cannot replicate Flygon's niche here) right now.

What is your opinion on Slither Wing? It also has access to STAB First Impression and U-Turn without the need for Tera, and while it doesn't have Dragon Tail, it does have access to Whirlwind. Earthquake is not STAB, but still hit decently hard especially if Sun is up, and it can instead run Fighting STAB such as Close Combat
 

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