Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Suspect]

we have heard before there is a burden of proof to demonstrate that a proposed banned thing is broken on the majority of Pokémon it’s on.

in this case sleep was determined as uncompetitive on Darkrai in particular. It had a unique way of making a lot of progress once it landed a sleep due to making use of the 3 slots it had left + its ability synergising with sleep.

in this case, determining that Darkrai made sleep uncompetitive caused sleep to be banned. Despite no clear consensus that sleep was breaking other Pokémon like Amoonguss, torkoal, valiant, Breloom and liligant hisui.

if the issue is a policy simplification, then the burden of proof should be that in gen 9, sleep is inherently broken. But we have no empirical data to support that, since the only meta where unlimited sleep is permitted is VGC.
This was actually touched on in one of the posts linked in the post. It went into depth about how tera hex Valiant had the best odds to beat all it's checks based purely on luck. And it also talked about how sun saw massive development when people realized it lilligant could also pull off sleep cheese, and pairing well with I think kingambit. The other thing they pointed out was how fast usage of the sleep inducing moves shot up iirc when hypnosis darkrai initially started gaining momentum. I'll try to find it again to link.


Edit: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/revisiting-the-sleep-clause-for-sv-ou.3734310/post-9932276
Rereading myself to make sure I understood it properly.
 
I tried my best, but it was always an uphill battle. RIP’a’rino Big Eepy. Hope nothing negative comes from this.
Well, now that it is settled let’s be nice to everyone, and move on to the next topic. How fucked ya’ll think Kyurem is?
once when i was young i was at a waterpark and decided to go on the lazy river ride. it was a super crowded day, so the entire river was jam-packed full of people with inflatable tubes lining it bank to bank. we were packed in like sardines. this was all well and good until i went underwater and couldn't find a place to get back up for air. there was just a solid mass of plastic and flesh above me with no openings i could see. i must have been under for at least two solid minutes, holding my breath until it felt like my lungs were about to burst. at an age far too soon to be contemplating what the inevitable end is like, all i could think was, "this is it. this is where i die and there's nothing i can do about it."

that, my friends, is how kyurem probably feels right now
 
This was actually touched on in one of the posts linked in the post. It went into depth about how tera hex Valiant had the best odds to beat all it's checks based purely on luck. And it also talked about how sun saw massive development when people realized it lilligant could also pull off sleep cheese, and pairing well with I think kingambit. The other thing they pointed out was how fast usage of the sleep inducing moves shot up iirc when hypnosis darkrai initially started gaining momentum. I'll try to find it again to link.


Edit: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/revisiting-the-sleep-clause-for-sv-ou.3734310/post-9932276
Rereading myself to make sure I understood it properly.
That was brought up, sure, but nothing became of it and the momentum died. Because only Darkrai had the unique traits to deal with most types of counterplay to it
 
That was brought up, sure, but nothing became of it and the momentum died. Because only Darkrai had the unique traits to deal with most types of counterplay to it
No? That’s what the sleep move is for on Valiant and Lilligant-H; it dealt with most types of counterplay to them. If anything, the two of them had BETTER two slot coverage options than Darkrai.
 
Sleep no more!
The council does murder sleep”- Macbethish


The entire reason the council was initially put in place was simply to save the player-base time, with the understanding the player-base would still ultimately be in control, but on things that were incredibly obvious it would save the weeks of a suspect test.

It wasn’t supposed to be “these are the smartest and best players who know better than the rest so they decide how the meta forms”. It concerns me we seem to be moving in the latter direction. A major mechanic like this changing absolutely deserved to have the community make the decision!
 
if a suspect test doesn’t make sense for this particular policy change, then don’t do a suspect test but a direct vote! Not a survey about should some action be taken, but a vote directly on which actions to be taken.

I fear the council’s bitterness that the community voted to keep Tera which they wanted banned has led to them purposefully not putting things to a vote when they think the vote might not go the way they want
 
in which case, it’s time to delete freeze and paralysis? I mean after all they’re inherently uncompetitive, according to how sleep was assessed.
Freeze and Paralysis largely can’t be deleted without some kind of pet mod, which kind of would go against a huge part of the reason we removed sleep clause to begin with. Additionally, sleep status moves were SOLELY high-variance turn stealing RNG checks, whereas Paralysis is tied to speed control and is less impactful in terms of stealing turns on average while Freeze is solely tied to 10% chances on damaging moves and isn’t manually activatable in any way. If it was, the moves that could do so would probably just be banned like the sleep moves.

Sorry for the two replies spread across two different posts btw; since I was replying to two different posts of yours I kind of had to quote reply twice
 
Sleep no more!
The council does murder sleep”- Macbethish


The entire reason the council was initially put in place was simply to save the player-base time, with the understanding the player-base would still ultimately be in control, but on things that were incredibly obvious it would save the weeks of a suspect test.

It wasn’t supposed to be “these are the smartest and best players who know better than the rest so they decide how the meta forms”. It concerns me we seem to be moving in the latter direction. A major mechanic like this changing absolutely deserved to have the community make the decision!
Absolutely agreed.

I agree that sleep is problematic, and I would like to see it to be banned, but it isn't a reason to not suspect it, as it is a big change to the meta in some way no matter what (e.g. breloom become way worse). Even as if the mechanics to be broken, with nothing important else to suspect right now, it felt like more appropriate to held a proper suspect since we have the time.
 
Not opposed to the sleep ban at all, but definitely seems like the council has been making very arbitrary decisions for what to quick ban vs what to put to a suspect test (Volcarona absolutely comes to mind here). Would appreciate more transparency on what kind of situation results in each kind of action, because as far as I can tell right now it's completely based on the whims of the council.
 
Not opposed to the sleep ban at all, but definitely seems like the council has been making very arbitrary decisions for what to quick ban vs what to put to a suspect test (Volcarona absolutely comes to mind here). Would appreciate more transparency on what kind of situation results in each kind of action, because as far as I can tell right now it's completely based on the whims of the council.
Finch addressed that on Twitter here:
(There’s a reply to this Tweet too.)
 
How or why can you confidently say the right decision was made when you said yourself anything between 3.2 and 3.7 can go either way?

This is the lowest ever score that has resulted in a quickban apart from the first generation's survey which had abnormally low ratings. Rejoice in that you achieved what you were after, but saying it was absolutely the right decision is a stretch based on the data.
View attachment 595433
I just want to preface this to say that I'm a total noob to this generation so I'm not speaking from a pro view point or someone with thousands of hours dedicated to this generation and what not but as a simple casual player of this generation

I definitely do think that a step this big was the wrong call, a suspect test and community response to this past a survey should have been the step forward for such a drastic step, and I think Finch's and other people's response to complaints are fairly awkward, naive, or immature for lack of a better word.

We're talking about a key game mechanic, a clause that has been in this competitive format for many years and many generations, only having a step like this done in Generation 5 and that's not to mention it was after the fact not in the middle of it being an active generation (no offense to the gen 5 OU players). Once talks about it began, something was going to happen and I think we all knew it seeing as how adamant many vocal people in the community council or not were in favor of sleep gone. Being in the survey to gauge a larger audience than just a vocal few was definitely a good choice by the council as it gauges a large playerbase's opinion on the matter.

And I don't want to get people confused, I don't want to go as far as say the council is doing "f democracy" but really, 3.7 out of 5 in a huge and I mean HUGE change in the meta game doesn't provoke ideas of "Hey we should turn this again to the community for a further opinion" in the council? Really? I think acting like "well y'know balance vs broken changes and we do what's best for the community based on multiple factors it's not one size fits all" is a frankly closed minded argument that fails to capture that this is the "not one size fits all" where the community should have been in charge of handling this further in such a volatile, still active, and large meta that it seems like just anything above 3.5 was just (in the eyes of the council) handing an already adamant and empowered council for banning sleep the keys to the kingdom. I apologize if I can't really catch my words or point.

What's done is done and I'm just a somewhat outsider viewing into the process, but I will say this kind of does seem like a sucky process for such a huge meta change. But hey what do I know, I barely hit 1500s in OU on a good week lol
 

Finchinator

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How or why can you confidently say the right decision was made when you said yourself anything between 3.2 and 3.7 can go either way?

This is the lowest ever score that has resulted in a quickban apart from the generation's first survey which had abnormally low ratings. Rejoice in that you achieved what you were after, but saying it was absolutely the right decision is a stretch based on the data.
View attachment 595433
Did you read the rest of my post? The point is that comparing Pokemon bans and larger policy movements is not ok; they are very much not the same. The former is the intended target of a suspect (alongside generation specific things like Tera/DMax) while the latter is ingrained in policy with layers of precedent and so on.

Getting reqs is a 30-50 game competency test to determine if someone is qualified to see if a Pokemon is broken or balanced. It has nothing to do with deeper tiering policy or framework, which ties back further than many of us have been around.
 

senorlopez

Formerly Ricardo [old]
Did you read the rest of my post? The point is that comparing Pokemon bans and larger policy movements is not ok; they are very much not the same. The former is the intended target of a suspect (alongside generation specific things like Tera/DMax) while the latter is ingrained in policy with layers of precedent and so on.

Getting reqs is a 30-50 game competency test to determine if someone is qualified to see if a Pokemon is broken or balanced. It has nothing to do with deeper tiering policy or framework, which ties back further than many of us have been around.
Haha me and put me down all you like but I have no idea what you just wrote - that just sounded like a mesh of buzzwords. If you want to break that down for me feel free but if not cool.
 
Very sad day today and the day gen 9 feels like it's came to a premature end, in truth it's been on life support for a while due to our terrible council who have continously failed to address issues such as Ghold (hazard stack) and Tera appropriately but simply bringing up and banning sleep feels like a whole level of over stepping.

I think it's important now more than ever to think about what smogon actually is, it isn't gamefreak it isn't nintendo it's generally a community that tries to balance the game in a competitive way for 6 vs 6 but in quick banning sleep it feels more like the snap decision of a few morons like Finch who really hasn't done a thing right this gen rather than the community making a decision.

Hopefully gen 10 will have a competent council, they really couldn't do a worse job than this one.
not the newly created account to shitpost :psycry:
 
Did you read the rest of my post? The point is that comparing Pokemon bans and larger policy movements is not ok; they are very much not the same. The former is the intended target of a suspect (alongside generation specific things like Tera/DMax) while the latter is ingrained in policy with layers of precedent and so on.

Getting reqs is a 30-50 game competency test to determine if someone is qualified to see if a Pokemon is broken or balanced. It has nothing to do with deeper tiering policy or framework, which ties back further than many of us have been around.
I can understand the pokemon = decades long tiering policy argument but still I think me and others have this burning question: If you want to make the point of how serious and impactful the decision is compared to a suspect test for a pokemon, don't you think or wouldn't you understand the complaints that 3.7/5 is too low of a number to make such a decision that ties back further than many of us have been around, let alone alive?

I don't mean that as an insult just to understand the rational on why 3.7 was enough of a breaking point rather than a 4.0 or above
 
Very sad day today and the day gen 9 feels like it's came to a premature end, in truth it's been on life support for a while due to our terrible council who have continously failed to address issues such as Ghold (hazard stack) and Tera appropriately but simply bringing up and banning sleep feels like a whole level of over stepping.

I think it's important now more than ever to think about what smogon actually is, it isn't gamefreak it isn't nintendo it's generally a community that tries to balance the game in a competitive way for 6 vs 6 but in quick banning sleep it feels more like the snap decision of a few morons like Finch who really hasn't done a thing right this gen rather than the community making a decision of what they want to see in the tier.

I don't have an issue with sleep going but more than any other decision should so clearly have been a suspect or something put to the player base not the faceless dictators who have proven themselves incapable of handling the metagame for a year now.

Hopefully gen 10 will have a competent council, they really couldn't do a worse job than this one.
Crazy
 
Haha me and put me down all you like but I have no idea what you just wrote - that just sounded like a mesh of buzzwords. If you want to break that down for me feel free but if not cool.
Suspects are to tell if the player is good enough to have an informed opinion on balance issues.

Nuking sleep is deeply tied to policy, and a suspect test doesn't say anything about whether the player is any good at policy.

The reason sleep was surveyed at all is that despite being ultimately a policy issue, if the player base was strongly against it, the OU Council would have pushed the problem off to Gen 10, just like every prior OU Council pushed it forward. A 3.7 is enough for general support, and hence, they felt free to act.
 
imma be fr

the community did not deserve to vote on this, i dont even think a survey was necessarily warranted but it's fine

this is a policy issue more than anything. your qualified vote because of your skill on the ladder does not necessarily mean you will have the right stance on sleep, because there is more to this than just "is sleep broken as is", "is the policy fine as is" (it isn't)
 
It's very weird to me that back in late October, 3.68 was just a suspect for Roaring Moon as "we were not comfortable quickbanning it" when now we're seeing an entire class of moves banned on a 3.7 with no suspect beforehand. TBH, this feels like a massive overstep.
Let's be real, it's probably they got salty due to losing to hypnosis RNG because the meta is so hazard-heavy they cannot prepare to sleep with lum berries. Also, weren't we supposed to suspect test tera after DLC2?

I'm not asking for much, just so we play by the rules they themselves created.

This is a really rude generalization and also just untrue given how massive the community is.
A massive community you also decided to ignore considering many were not aware of the ban to certain strat in lower tiers. Also, many of those don't even play on smogon anymore, maybe because of changes like this. Maybe is for the better but you can't be so sure, maybe they just want a setting more akin to console while remaining competitive.

False equivelancy. A suspect would be a huge misuse of policy for this. Think about it: suspect reqs are a basic competency test to gauge broken vs balanced. There is no policy backbone or connection to suspect reqs at all, making it like trying to fit a square object in a round hole to suspect something like sleep.
... Not really? You can suspect test easily considering there's such things as Sleep users. Darkrai, Iron Valiant, Torkoal, Skeledirge and Amoonguss are all users of sleep, and we can indeed analyze how much impact the usage of sleep move had on our matches. Considering you had it as an option you could indeed suspect test them if you wanted to be an actual democracy.

We did not suspect other things deemed uncompetitive like evasion, so why would this suddenly be any different? You trying to differentiate it holds no weight as there is no clause that something is "major" vs "minor" or whatever these means holds specific weight in tiering. You are entitled to your opinion on what is right and what is wrong of course, but the right decision was made within current tiering infastructure without a doubt.
Counterpoint: GEN 5. You did suspect test the OP sleep of that gen, because it was indeed seen as a mayor mechanic. Why gen 5 sleep is considered a mayor mechanic but gen 9 is not? This feels like revisionist behavior. It wasn't even that long ago, it was only 4 years ago when you did this, and is honestly concerning, because we don't really know what the elite players truly wanted, or if the hypnosis controversy would dial down like the quick claw one.
Also, Who said I'm fine with flinch items being quickbanned..? I would wish to discuss this with you but I'm just tired. But seriously, you should stand consistent on decisions or you will lose credibility and is just irresponsible for all of the ones who voted ban, including you.
 

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