Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Suspect]

This is all largely irrelevant; you just proved that there is ample counterplay to Barraskewda. You cannot just single it out because it has Flip Turn -- games are all about being able to assess risk, sequence, etc.

You cannot ban something because it being paired with Raging Bolt or Iron Treads is hard for single Pokemon -- users of these Pokemon have their own teammates and cores, too. This is the point of playing the actual game and trying to out-position the opponent to win.
I agree with the fact that you have to assess risk, but something like say, rillaboom, gets 2 hit ko'd by barra liquidation.
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom in Rain: 179-211 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Dragonite with even a little bit of chip to get rid of multiscale get's 2hit ko'd, and that's the bulky version.
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Dragonite in Rain: 172-203 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Raging bolt can get 2hit ko'd by barra liquidation or 2hit ko'd by cc.
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt in Rain: 174-204 (42.7 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 217-256 (53.3 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Archaludon is great against barra, but that just means you have to use the playstyle barra is run on, meaning you are abusing it yourself.
Oh, also gets destroyed by cc, so if they predict, they can take it out.
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 330-390 (88.7 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Ogerpon gets destroyed by cc.
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon: 239-282 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Walking wake gets destroyed by cc, nothing new.
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 224-264 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hydrapple can sometimes barely not get 2hit ko'd by cc, but only sometimes.
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydrapple: 191-225 (46 - 54.2%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO
Sinsticha counters barra extremely hard, but if you are having to run sinistcha, that isn't a good sign. It's a good mon, but shouldn't be required to deal with barra.
Dondozo should never be used to say something is wallable, it is run on stall teams mainly, and can struggle with other mons.
Every counter to barra except for sinistcha, dondozo and potentially Hydrapple and Dragonite, can be either beaten with sheer power or predicts.
 
Barraskewda has 700+ Speed under rain, is spamming a 382.5 BP Liquidations + 270 BP Flip turns under Rain (factoring Tera + STAB + CB), forcing mons like GAMBIT into 50 / 50s with Aqua Jet, and somehow Archie is the problem? Its gotten so bad, that I am seeing players counterplay Barra by sacking their Volcarona and hoping Flame Body Procs. Archie is merely profitting off of the unhealthy effect of Barraskewda forcing mons like poor gliscor and Lando-T into clicking Tera Water / Dragon, which Arch (AND BOLT) both can take advantage of.

IMO we should be targeting the mons that get a free shift gear boost in rain, or the playstyle as a whole before we target honest archie. A Damp Rock ban or Drizzle ban should also be in the cards. Raging Bolt is another mon that should be looked at considering it is quite difficult to account for in the builder and it particularly potent in Rain, where even Ting-Lu isn't a reliable check.
I agree with you about damp rock ban. If that is the case, heat rock should be put on this same list too.

Also want to add light clay.
 
I think Archaludon stands out very blatantly in the context of Rain teams. It snowballs out of control to a crazy extent due to great strength and durability without many checks/counters.
big fan of using dirge to counter him. Immune to body press, eats flash cannon, doesn’t mind electro shot boosts, and gets some torch song boosts and/or a burn in return.
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Pre-Contributor
I agree with the fact that you have to assess risk, but something like say, rillaboom, gets 2 hit ko'd by barra liquidation.
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom in Rain: 179-211 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Dragonite with even a little bit of chip to get rid of multiscale get's 2hit ko'd, and that's the bulky version.
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Dragonite in Rain: 172-203 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Raging bolt can get 2hit ko'd by barra liquidation or 2hit ko'd by cc.
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt in Rain: 174-204 (42.7 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 217-256 (53.3 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Archaludon is great against barra, but that just means you have to use the playstyle barra is run on, meaning you are abusing it yourself.
Oh, also gets destroyed by cc, so if they predict, they can take it out.
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 330-390 (88.7 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Ogerpon gets destroyed by cc.
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon: 239-282 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Walking wake gets destroyed by cc, nothing new.
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 224-264 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hydrapple can sometimes barely not get 2hit ko'd by cc, but only sometimes.
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hydrapple: 191-225 (46 - 54.2%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO
Sinsticha counters barra extremely hard, but if you are having to run sinistcha, that isn't a good sign. It's a good mon, but shouldn't be required to deal with barra.
Dondozo should never be used to say something is wallable, it is run on stall teams mainly, and can struggle with other mons.
Every counter to barra except for sinistcha, dondozo and potentially Hydrapple and Dragonite, can be either beaten with sheer power or predicts.
- :rillaboom: Rilla getting 2hko'd has no bearing on wether or not it's a counter, you get a clean revenge kill with Grassy Glide. Given grassy terrain recovery turns, you might also be able to come back with enough HP to take a second Liquidation, ignoring hazards.

- :Dragonite: A counter is talking about a mon from full, so yes, I'm considering it with Multiscale. Tera Normal ESpeed is also outspeeding Barra anyway, eliminating any need to predict mindgames with Aqua Jet as well.

- :raging_bolt: It getting 2hko'd does not matter, thunderclap ohkos. You're also able to run more defense/HP ev's if you truly want it to get 3hko'd.

- :walking_wake:, :ogerpon-wellspring:, :hydrapple: if you're forcing barra to use CC, you've effectively removed the threat. For a mon that always runs Choice Band, not being locked into the water move is a death sentence, forcing it to switch out. Barra simply cannot afford to switch in that often during a game.

- :Sinistcha:, :dondozo: these are both mons that have uses on both BO's and Stall, Dondozo is not exclusive to stall, while Sinistcha has seen fringe use in Tournament games, not exclusively for rain.

Additionally, there are some more Barra counters you can run if you feel like it, such as Water Absorb :clodsire:, :alomomola:, :amoonguss: and :toxapex:.

This is also ignoring natural checks, which there are a lot more of, again Barra shouldn't just be coming in for free, and if it does, all these mons can trade if need be:

:kyurem:, :dragapult:, :meowscarada:, :zamazenta:, Burning Bulwark :gouging_fire:, :serperior:, :azumarill:, :latios:, :keldeo:, :kommo-o:, and :zapdos:.
 
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- :rillaboom: Rilla getting 2hko'd has no bearing on wether or not it's a counter, you get a clean revenge kill with Grassy Glide. Given grassy terrain recovery turns, you might also be able to come back with enough HP to take a second Liquidation, ignoring hazards.

- :Dragonite: A counter is talking about a mon from full, so yes, I'm considering it with Multiscale. Tera Normal ESpeed is also outspeeding Barra anyway, eliminating any need to predict mindgames with Aqua Jet as well.

- :raging_bolt: It getting 2hko'd does not matter, thunderclap ohkos. You're also able to run more defense/HP ev's if you truly want it to get 3hko'd.

- :walking_wake:, :ogerpon-wellspring:, :hydrapple: if you're forcing barra to use CC, you've effectively removed the threat. For a mon that always runs Choice Band, not being locked into the water move is a death sentence, forcing it to switch out. Barra simply cannot afford to switch in that often during a game.

- :Sinistcha:, :dondozo: these are both mons that have uses on both BO's and Stall, Dondozo is not exclusive to stall, while Sinistcha has seen fringe use in Tournament games, not exclusively for rain.
A counter is "Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."
Rilla can only switch in once, maybe twice, and it gives easy opportunities for teamates to get in.
Dragonite is a good counter, so I was wrong about that.
Running defensive ev's on raging bolt is not the best, and it has to use thunderclap to ko it, while not being ko'd itself, which is the most free opportunity for something to come in.
Again, a counter should be able to get in for free, the barra player simply has to predict when they come in, and can get the damage which will mean they can't come in again for fear of ko'ing it.
As I've said before, they are great counters to barra, but dondozo again should never be used to say it counters a physical mon. Although I may have implied Dondozo is exclusive to stall, it is not and if I have made that assumption, then I apologise. Sinistcha as you have said, has seen fringe use, a counter to barra should be splashable and widespread.

Welp, that just happened. Can't wait for something to change (It probably won't, but let me cope, okay.)
 
democracy is bad
Democracy is 50%+1.

Kyurem IMO really could have went either way. I voted a 3. It sucks to fight against but it is rather slow and is weak to rocks. It cannot run Boots, Specs, and Loaded Dice all in one.

Now, let’s move on to the next target. Lot of broken mons to choose from:

Archaludon
Kingcheap
Mega-Entei
Volcarona
Gliscor
Longneck Raikou
 
I get that arch may seem like the problem, but barra is so unbelievably stupid that I can't explain otherwise. You have to run a choice scarf, max speed evs and timid nature deoxys speed to outspeed it naturally under rain. That is so insanely fast, plus it has power for days. You either have to 1. Be a resist with great bulk or 2. Have a quad-resistance, which is limited to wake and hydrapple or 3. Have an immunity, which is really only ogerpon. When people say arch restricts counterplay, barra does that too. You can't just say that arch is a problem because rain wasn't a problem in DLC1, the influx of dragons reduced ogerpon's viability and IMO, people should have explored rain more such as poison jab barra.
Damp rock should be banned, because having to deal with both for 7 turns is so stupid, I've run into non-damp rock pellipers and they have been fine.
The influx of Dragons has reduced Ogerpon's viability yes; for example there's one rain uses that's actually Steel Dragon so it resists both of Ogerpon's STABs and can get to +2 and 2hko by clicking electro shot twice - i'd Say that's the most relevant to the rain matchup, no? Without Archaludon, Skewda can't do what bothers you so much about it. Skewda was also in the base game, prehome, and still in home, both before Ogerpon existed. How was it then? As I recall Floatzel was more viable.
 
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can i ask why we need a supermajority to change status quo? shouldnt normal majority be enough? so many things have stayed this gen that would be banned under conventional voting.
Simply put, if one person was added to the mix, it could potentially then sway the decision. A supermajority means that the playerbase is sure that they want to ban it, one or two votes would not change the decision. I know it is kinda dumb when things that should be banned are not because they didn't get a supermajority, but there is a reason for it to make sure we are confident on banning it.
 
can i ask why we need a supermajority to change status quo? shouldnt normal majority be enough? so many things have stayed this gen that would be banned under conventional voting.
I understand supermajority for the council, but tiers like UU only ask for 50% on their suspects.
I hope that some enthusiast with good words will make a topic on Policy Review, which would be the best place to discuss this.
Things are not moving forward, and it is not due to a lack of popular support or a lack of work from the council.
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Pre-Contributor
A counter is "Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."
Rilla can only switch in once, maybe twice, and it gives easy opportunities for teamates to get in.
Dragonite is a good counter, so I was wrong about that.
Running defensive ev's on raging bolt is not the best, and it has to use thunderclap to ko it, while not being ko'd itself, which is the most free opportunity for something to come in.
Again, a counter should be able to get in for free, the barra player simply has to predict when they come in, and can get the damage which will mean they can't come in again for fear of ko'ing it.
As I've said before, they are great counters to barra, but dondozo again should never be used to say it counters a physical mon. Although I may have implied Dondozo is exclusive to stall, it is not and if I have made that assumption, then I apologise. Sinistcha as you have said, has seen fringe use, a counter to barra should be splashable and widespread.
You're not even using the right definition, you're using that of a check, which is different. Rillaboom being able to switch in once counts as a counter, because it can beat out / force out barraskewda 100% of the time.

"Getting in for free" doesn't exist in this case, unless you're counting switching in with an HDB water immunity. Being a counter doesn't necessitate being able to "come in for free" because that's an unrealistic expectation that pretty much no Pokemon can do. Skarm doesn't "Come in for free" on Iron Boulder, even though it's generally considered a counter, it can take 30% from Mighty Cleave, Plus stealth rocks damage, and is forced to roost.

"Dondozo should never be used to say" why not, it's what it does, it beats the mon, i was providing pokemon that beat Barraskewda.

Sinistcha being fringe doesn't make it not a counter, I listed a ton of way more splashable ones, nitpicking the least usable one because a counter "needs to be splashable" just isn't a real argument.
 

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This will be my last post on Arch vs Barraskewda. I do not feel like going repeatedly on the same topic. Archaludon is clearly more pressing, finding itself more threatening and durable while being as accessible as any Rain abuser. Yes, it is support reliant, but it lacks a reasonable amount of counterplay and warps teambuilding.

I will be the first to admit Barraskewda is easily the best Swift Swim user and it is the best OU has seen in recent generations, but it is not broken alone.

Defensively:
  • Ogerpon-Wellspring is at an all-time high in viability with Water Absorb
  • Alomomola is peaking and can rejuvinate health of teammates while making Barraskewda nothing more than a pivot/revenge killer
  • Walking Wake is able to 4x resist Water moves while being a huge threat to Rain structures
  • Dondozo sits all over Barraskewda
  • Water Absorb Clodsire is a counter that also has other practical applications
  • Toxapex is able to stomach anything comfortably while being better in a HO centric metagame
  • Amoonguss is similarly good into Barraskewda as Toxapex, but the metagame is not as favorable for it admiteddly
  • Pelipper takes two if SR is not up
  • Raging Bolt is able to take a few hits
  • Sinistcha is able to withstand hits while defeating it
Offensively:
  • Rillaboom is able to take any hit and easily OHKO with Grassy Glide
  • Raging Bolt is similar to Rillaboom, but bulkier and more threatening overall
  • Dragonite can stomach multiple hits with Multiscale if needed and easily do enough damage overall, especially thanks to Extreme Speed
  • Kyurem is not comfortable, but can take any Water attack and OHKO it
  • Serperior lives any hit and OHKOs it, but does lack priority or means to outpace it
  • Rotom-Wash is able to stomach a hit or two while dispatching of it easily
  • Ogerpon-Wellspring fits onto offense well as it is immune to Water moves and OHKOs it
  • Volcanion is in a similar boat to Ogerpon-Wellspring, but it may not OHKO Barraskewda while taking less from Close Combat
  • Priority from Kingambit or even Samurott-Hisui can do a number as well
Yes, offensive counterplay is limited, but it is not smaller than the list you would find for a half dozen other Pokemon in the tier -- numerous Pokemon fit onto offensive archetypes that are listed above while there are more than enough that fit onto balance or bulkier teams.

As for Archaludon, there are far less reliable counters. Clodsire if it lacks EQ or Blissey if it lacks Body Press, and you find these two on very bulky teams often enough. Offensive teams can string together immunities, use Ting Lu to essentially trade with it if, or try to Tera around it or limit it to 1-2 entries, but there are very few concrete answers while gameflow does not lend itself kindly here either due to Stamina and Rain applying immense pressure up-front.

The main drawback is Archaludon is support reliant, which is true and can limit suspect potential for Pokemon. However, Rain has been dominant for multiple weeks and the strain it has on team construction is clear at this point. I fully intend to suspect test Archaludon.
 

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