Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Suspect]

It's pretty crazy what a "distorted" (as in, chaotic) version of a once prosperous tier really does to people. Hopefully we can move on from this and just talk about fun things in the metagame as of late. Like, me personally, I am a big fan of Dondozo + Clodsire walling everything.
:sv/dondozo: :sv/clodsire:
So far, I've been experimenting with cores that are good into the general metagame and mons that are individually good against stuff -- like Tera Ghost + Fire Spin + Taunt Volcanion -- who isn't limited to JUST a hard stall killer -- and could actually be pretty good against the likes of Gliscor, certain Rillaboom, Weavile, and Skarmory. But whatever the case is, I'll be takin Dondozo + Clodsire to the top, because I don't like Offensive teams XD


Ya'll prolly ain't gonna listen to me since SetsuStsna just said this, but what is a core or certain pokemon set that you guys like that can stand up to the current metagame?
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
People, wow. I hate how toxic this thread can get so quickly. THIS IS JUST A GAME!!! Shoutout to CAP for being one of the few parts of this site that won’t turn against you on a dime or slowly erode your confidence in humanity.
As a CAP main, I think I'm more entitled than anyone to say that section of the site has eroded my confidence in humanity.

Anyways, to make this not just a shitpost, I just want to say that is interesting to see how people are adapting rain structures to account for the loss Archaludon. Not sure how long this is gonna last though, since I still think that mon is borderline irreplaceable on Rain.
 

FayaWizard

Amnesia
is an official Team Rater
Other cool moves have been Toxic, Spiky Shield, and the recent Mud Shot.

What is your favorite Lead Glimmora set?
During the Kyurem suspect, Sufys posted this neat Scizor HO team that used Mud Shot Glimmora, and I found it actually can be pretty reliable (when you don't miss it).

Mud Shot allows you to beat opposing Glimmoras in the lead matchup, as well as preventing Tusk from speed boosting (as you can't keep up rocks against Tusk without Tera anyways), slowing Deo-S down for slower mons like Serperior and Volcarona to set up on, and being a general nuisance to teams. While you can't threaten Gholdengo and Raging Bolt as much, slowing them down still allows for your own threats to setup/revenge kill them. Furthermore, due to the ban of Archaludon, Earth Power isn't as necessary, and I think Mud Shot can be a very useful alternative to Earth Power in the future.
 
I’m starting to experiment with Cyclizar. He’s pretty cool. I cooked up the unique set of Draco Meteor, Knock Off, Rapid Spin, U-Turn. Ghost immunity is pretty goated.
Yeah, Cyclizar has had a decent niche on stall teams for a while now as utility role compression - it can invest in its special bulk and run Overheat along with knock-turn-spin to pressure some gholdengo sets and eventually spin on it. The u-turn is still useful in a stall context because cyclizar is a good magma storm heatran switch in with it, you can pivot between cyclizar and flip turn alomomola to, with a few misses, pp stall all the magma storms pretty consistently.
 
Yeah, Cyclizar has had a decent niche on stall teams for a while now as utility role compression - it can invest in its special bulk and run Overheat along with knock-turn-spin to pressure some gholdengo sets and eventually spin on it. The u-turn is still useful in a stall context because cyclizar is a good magma storm heatran switch in with it, you can pivot between cyclizar and flip turn alomomola to, with a few misses, pp stall all the magma storms pretty consistently.
I’m using it with Glowking right now, and they make a pretty solid regen core. I just brought in my Cyclizar trying to sac it on a scarf Iron Valiant, but they Shadow Ball expecting me to go Glowking lol. The U-Turn even makes it a Toxic absorber, and Draco threatens Gliscor. Good mon
 
I’m using it with Glowking right now, and they make a pretty solid regen core. I just brought in my Cyclizar trying to sac it on a scarf Iron Valiant, but they Shadow Ball expecting me to go Glowking lol. The U-Turn even makes it a Toxic absorber, and Draco threatens Gliscor. Good mon
On the topic of Glowking, I've started using it again with RBolt and WBall, saw it around here, bc it gives RBolt fake BoltBeam coverage. Thought of running a GlowTingBolt structure with SP Latias, Def Lando and Bulkyrona. So far, not doing so great hahaha

I think I'm gonna try it out Scarf Lando before disregarding it completely bc thats like one of my fav sets on any mons ever. Maybe Latias is hard to justify and worth replacing for a Fairy mon. But mostly RBolt and TingLu are pulling NO WEIGHT at all. I feel like they just don't do anything. My main playstyle is semistall and sometimes they feel full stall or full hazard stack or full offense. I don't really know how to approach this team. But hey, I'm happy to be teambuilding again, bc i rose to 1500 before arch was banned with a single team and I forgot how fun is to theorycraft
 
My only thing on the matter of Tera is that I both feel like Tera is overbearing but the only actual restriction being considered (Tera Blast ban) doesn't seem entirely consistent with both precedent and policy, as many have both done the math to point out the proportion of mons actually using blast and contrasting it to the nature of the only real similar ban, Baton Pass, as something which benefits a passee more than the passer, unlike Blast.

Which is to say I'd vote for the Blast ban because it'd probably help the tier, even if only marginally, but I find it hard to justify on a greater level.
There's two motivations behind a Tera Blast ban.

The first, which is primarily seen among people who dislike Tera and want to chip away at it to prove the mechanic is a problem, views it at as way to nerf Terastalization. The basic argument is "Look, we nerfed Tera, it's still a problem, we need to move on to a ban!"

This is the minority view, and almost exclusively among people who can't make suspect tests or write coherent posts supporting their position.

The second, whose supporters span the full range of opinions on Tera, views it as a chance to make things a little more predictable. There's secondary motivations - some view it as a way to reduce bans (Regieleki comes back, Volc drops off the radar, etc.), some to make matchups more stable (Kingambit needs Tera Blast to beat a healthy Great Tusk, for example), some as a way to reduce threat diversity and make team building easier - but at its core, they fault the move itself.

This view doesn't regard the move as overpowered, but still a problem due to being unhealthy. Here's a bit from current tiering policy:

V.) Team matchup management is a part of the game.
  • This means we have to accept that it's possible we will be at an advantage or disadvantage from the very beginning.
  • With optimal team building skills, the pool of options (Pokemon, moves, items) present in the tier should allow you to build teams addressing the different team archetypes at least decently and offer a solution in-battle to a large majority of the principle threats of the metagame.
Threat saturation imposes sharp limits on team building options, and in this view, Tera Blast is a significant contributor to threat saturation while being preferable to banning a couple mons.
 
Heatranator Could you share why you would think Kingambit is broken/not broken kind of like how you described Kyurem here? Imagine there was a suspect test going around for it...This is helpful for low ladder people wanting to play smogon tournaments but do not like Kingambit in OU.
It can sometimes just win games it shouldn't of with supreme overlord and sucker punch. It requires you to keep your counters at full health like tusk in order to not get a late game gambit sweep and that is not really healthy. I'm tired rn, I have to go to work soon at it's 6:30 where I am so sorry for the short description. It is easier to handle rn than DLC1, but it still isn't too healthy.
 
This view doesn't regard the move as overpowered, but still a problem due to being unhealthy. Here's a bit from current tiering policy:



Threat saturation imposes sharp limits on team building options, and in this view, Tera Blast is a significant contributor to threat saturation while being preferable to banning a couple mons.
Appreciated, thanks! I'm admittedly only as familiar with the earliest parts of the tiering framework as those are usually the most cited. I very much subscribe to the "yeah man I like Tera but I'll take a notable chip out of it if possible" camp, and its good to know that Tera Blast ban can be justified on the teambuilding part of policy rather than being directly parallelled to moves like Baton Pass, Last Respects, etc.
 
Okay, so now that the forum is back open, I have some thoughts from testing I did when it was closed.
1. Specs Analytic Magnezone is amazing. Like, shit hits hard. You can very easily lead it off in a game and click flash cannon. They most likely will switch into their ground type and due to the analytic boost occuring even if they switch, you can destroy them.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 202-238 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
To get this calc, just click switching out on the clod's side. And yeah, it does 50% max to a clod. That's insane. It can also use tera fighting and body press to be an amazing gambit counter. Going into this, I thought it would be terrible, but it was actually amazing.
2. Wide guard iron boulder is ... alright? I mean, I didn't see any rillabooms in my testing of it, but against gambit's it was good. Helped make sure I could try to win the 1v1's, which I did most of the time.
3. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2065039353-pry7szx9ibd858szqyct755zkh7f9ihpw
Lmao, gliscor doing gliscor things.
4. Man, I wish tyranitar was 5 more points faster in speed because then it could outspeed jolly meow. Like it is so close to being amazing with scarf, and I cannot tell you how much I would use it.
5. Bulky Porygon-Z with recover is actually kinda nice as it is great against bulkier teams. It can usually switch in, take a hit, then recover off the damage and fire back with a adaptability boosted tri-attack. I hope to see more innovation of porygon-Z because it has a lot of unique tools.
6. Scarf Tornadus-T is kinda good rn, like it outspeeds everything in the tier. You can even tech it with dark pulse to destroy dragapult. It can be a good pivot with regen, and can deal decent damage with coverage moves.
 

viivian

OU's sweetheart
is a Tiering Contributor
Thread is unlocked now! Remember to stay on topic and be respectful.
this SV OU shit gets serious, prepare to die behind it.

I'd like to formally apologize for the comments I made. I made a severe lapse in my judgement by calling the Shed Tail meta the best SV metagame. I hope everyone can forgive me for my statements.

Terapagos meta was still pretty lit tho
on a more serious note, shed tail meta was cancer imo and i especially hate how the move itself stuck around for so long. by the time it got banned the HOME meta was barely a month away from release, i genuinely don't know how we as a playerbase didn't realize sooner that having a slow as shit bulky steel-type w/ shed tail would still give so many free turns to the exact same mons that abused shed tail cyclizar. definitely one of my least favorite eras of SV OU, it was especially bad when espathra was still legal since espathra abused the shit out of shed tail and orthworm used espathra's one counter as setup fodder. only one i liked even less was the gliscor/roaring moon era during DLC1
 

FayaWizard

Amnesia
is an official Team Rater
Okay, so now that the forum is back open, I have some thoughts from testing I did when it was closed.
1. Specs Analytic Magnezone is amazing. Like, shit hits hard. You can very easily lead it off in a game and click flash cannon. They most likely will switch into their ground type and due to the analytic boost occuring even if they switch, you can destroy them.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 202-238 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
To get this calc, just click switching out on the clod's side. And yeah, it does 50% max to a clod. That's insane. It can also use tera fighting and body press to be an amazing gambit counter. Going into this, I thought it would be terrible, but it was actually amazing.
I know this is meant to be a gimmick, but a lot of common leads are, well, ground types? Tusk, Treads, Gliscor, Lando, and Ting Lu all usually open a game, whether it be to set hazards, pivot, or counterlead a hazard setter. And Magnezone crumples like a paper bag/is forced to switch, in which case you would've been better off leading a mon like Specs Pult instead, who could've at least pivoted out or clicked Shadow Ball or done something other than be dead weight.
 
noooo I missed the fun :( semantics-based online arguments are my THING, y'all can't just have them while I'm asleep!

Anyway, I thought of something recently: has anyone ever tried Tera Ice Gouging Fire with Chilly Reception support? The thought came to me when comparing Fire to Baxcalibur as stupid-bulky DD sweepers. You do unfortunately lose the ability to fuck over iron boulder, but in exchange, you lose the crippling weaknesses to ground and dragon, and the snow defense boost gives you a pseudo-resistance to many strong physical attacks, even uninvested:
green = 3HKO or less
blue = 2HKO
red = OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 126-148 (35.8 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 252-296 (71.7 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 132-156 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 112-133 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 93.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Superpower over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 282-334 (80.3 - 95.1%) -- not a KO
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 146-174 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 134-158 (38.1 - 45%) -- approx. 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire: 306-362 (87.1 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 222-264 (63.2 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 210-248 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tera Fighting Iron Boulder Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 210-248 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 204-242 (58.1 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
as you can see, a good portion of strong physical attacks now fail to even 3HKO you, which is incredibly powerful, as it allows you to set up to +2, and I don't need to tell you that a +2 Gouging Fire WRECKS the tier.

The downside, of course, is that morning sun no longer heals 50% and because of this, you're left at rather low health by the time your sweep starts. That's why I typically run Burning Bulwark in place of morning sun; it protects from priority moves like Glide, Espeed, and Bullet Punch and renders them weak enough to not KO even at ~30% or so, especially if it's still snowing. The set is Heat Crash/DD/BB/Filler. Last slot can be EQ or Tera Blast Ice; I prefer TB Ice to hit dragons, but eq hits tran and some bulky waters harder. I enjoy personally using BE on this set to help compensate for weaker power of heat crash vs your other options, plus monkey brain like big number, but boots might be better

So, am I cooking?
 
2. Wide guard iron boulder is ... alright? I mean, I didn't see any rillabooms in my testing of it, but against gambit's it was good. Helped make sure I could try to win the 1v1's, which I did most of the time.
May I ask, what is the purpose of Quick Guard on Boulder (Wide used but I assume you mean Quick since Boulder gets one but not the other)? Boulder has Protect which should cover most of the same things in a Singles context without Allies to Guard, and other than depleting Sucker Punch from Kingambit (admittedly a pretty good benefit late game) and I guess stalling out a Terrain turn, doesn't this mostly put off having to switch out of an already-losing match-up at the cost of a Coverage slot? I understand this is probably one of several gimmicks you're experimenting with but I'm confused on what this accomplishes when the gimmick works that the normal set isn't able to achieve.

Also on the Porygon-Z experiment, how important did you find Tri-Attack's Status Procs? Because something gimmicky that occurs to me is Porygon-Z is one of the few mons for whom Tera Blast isn't a dead slot without Tera thanks to function as STAB even before using it, reducing the cost of running it if it's not your Tera Hog.
 
I know this is meant to be a gimmick, but a lot of common leads are, well, ground types? Tusk, Treads, Gliscor, Lando, and Ting Lu all usually open a game, whether it be to set hazards, pivot, or counterlead a hazard setter. And Magnezone crumples like a paper bag/is forced to switch, in which case you would've been better off leading a mon like Specs Pult instead, who could've at least pivoted out or clicked Shadow Ball or done something other than be dead weight.
Sure, but once magnezone comes in, most likely your opponent will be forced to switch in their ground types which you can take advantage of to ko them, unless they have ting or clod and even still it chunks them hard. It also has bp to destroy gambit, which specs pult can't do.
May I ask, what is the purpose of Quick Guard on Boulder (Wide used but I assume you mean Quick since Boulder gets one but not the other)? Boulder has Protect which should cover most of the same things in a Singles context without Allies to Guard, and other than depleting Sucker Punch from Kingambit (admittedly a pretty good benefit late game) and I guess stalling out a Terrain turn, doesn't this mostly put off having to switch out of an already-losing match-up at the cost of a Coverage slot? I understand this is probably one of several gimmicks you're experimenting with but I'm confused on what this accomplishes when the gimmick works that the normal set isn't able to achieve.

Also on the Porygon-Z experiment, how important did you find Tri-Attack's Status Procs? Because something gimmicky that occurs to me is Porygon-Z is one of the few mons for whom Tera Blast isn't a dead slot without Tera thanks to function as STAB even before using it, reducing the cost of running it if it's not your Tera Hog.
I meant quick guard lmao. It is mainly to deal with rillaboom and somewhat gambit. It wasn't too successful and more so a gimmick. I didn't use porygon-Z a lot and I also used t-wave so I didn't find the status procs happened a lot. Tera blast is something cool that you can use, I just used tera electric t-bolt.
 

RudeLiees

formerly Xr Kartana
Seriously, when will Gholdengo will get banned, this Pokémon make hazards more broken than ever (they’re already broken, Feel free to mock me for this opinion) tusk is ONLY one of the VIABLE spinner because he have multi way to hit gholdengo, Hazards stack team are so toxic to face, knock off and you get the win if you play correctly…

Why keeping in the tier a mon that’s broken since the beginning of the tier?! And with his ability that make him immune to EVERY status moves, I don’t enjoy SV with Tera and hazards they’re broken as hell, before banning Pokémon, let’s see a mega WITHOUT any forme of hazards and Tera, and you’ll see that the tier will already be better

Feel free to mock me for this opinion : hazards are broken since gen6

And don’t enjoy playing ou, or every tier with Tera except NDUBERS (OU should look at the tier after the Tera ban)
 
Seriously, when will Gholdengo will get banned, this Pokémon make hazards more broken than ever (they’re already broken, Feel free to mock me for this opinion) tusk is ONLY one of the VIABLE spinner because he have multi way to hit gholdengo, Hazards stack team are so toxic to face, knock off and you get the win if you play correctly…

Why keeping in the tier a mon that’s broken since the beginning of the tier?! And with his ability that make him immune to EVERY status moves, I don’t enjoy SV with Tera and hazards they’re broken as hell, before banning Pokémon, let’s see a mega WITHOUT any forme of hazards and Tera, and you’ll see that the tier will already be better

Feel free to mock me for this opinion : hazards are broken since gen6

And don’t enjoy playing ou, or every tier with Tera except NDUBERS (OU should look at the tier after the Tera ban)
I wonder if we can attach Garganacl to this comment. I feel like this was pre dlc and now we are in post. Ban Garganacl please
 

viivian

OU's sweetheart
is a Tiering Contributor
Seriously, when will Gholdengo will get banned, this Pokémon make hazards more broken than ever (they’re already broken, Feel free to mock me for this opinion) tusk is ONLY one of the VIABLE spinner because he have multi way to hit gholdengo, Hazards stack team are so toxic to face, knock off and you get the win if you play correctly…
i don't speak for anyone but myself but we have far, far, far more pressing matters than gholdengo right now. it absolutely should be suspect tested later down the line but we've got too much stuff to worry about to focus specifically on gholdengo

also very slight correction but there's actually two other viable rapid spinners in the tier (excadrill and iron treads). the others don't see use because they're bad pokemon. at best you'll run into a quaquaval on ladder once or twice a month but you're otherwise better off just using great tusk or iron treads
 

viivian

OU's sweetheart
is a Tiering Contributor
Simple answer : broken check broken..
i guess? a lot of the current brokens like roaring moon, gouging fire, raging bolt, etc. happen to have favorable matchups into gholdengo. still though i think we should wait until said brokens are either quickbanned or individually suspect tested before trying anything w/ gholdengo

I wonder if we can attach Garganacl to this comment. I feel like this was pre dlc and now we are in post. Ban Garganacl please
you want to ban garganacl in the lord's year of 2024? do we look like we play UU?
 

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