Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Suspect]

still though i think we should wait until said brokens are either quickbanned or individually suspect tested before trying anything w/ gholdengo
i don't think quickbans are going to be happening anytime soon. i can't see anything scoring so overwhelmingly high that it'd be better to skip the suspect. the only way i foresee quickbans happening in the near future is if several suspects in a row fail and people get fed up with it
 
i guess? a lot of the current brokens like roaring moon, gouging fire, raging bolt, etc. happen to have favorable matchups into gholdengo. still though i think we should wait until said brokens are either quickbanned or individually suspect tested before trying anything w/ gholdengo



you want to ban garganacl in the lord's year of 2024? do we look like we play UU?
When people bring up Gholdengo, may as well go back to year 2023 and start there
 
I think if UU ever ends up looking like this Gen's OU, I think we have to accept that we have lost and GF have won.
I'm placing my bets on it happening in Gen 10 though.
uu does look like this gen's ou. like half of the dlc1/pre-dlc meta is down there (though some are banned). amoonguss, iron moth, zapdos, garg, ribombee, pex, greninja, garchomp, atales, and of course the day-1 ou staples like lokix, ceruledge, ursaluna, and cinccino. hell, manaphy and blissey fell further than that even
 
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Iron Valiant said what? /jk
i refuse to take that l, iron valiant was the pioneer of fast sleep even if no one realized it at the time. there were multiple reasons i was pushing for a valiant ban and for darkrai not to drop, but the biggest one was because a full sleep ban didn't seem like an option that would ever be on the table at that time

what i will take the l on, though, is my opinions on:
  • gliscor at the beginning of dlc1 (i laughed at it being on the first survey)
  • sneasler in home and the first half or so of dlc1 (i thought it was cheap but fine)
  • walking wake during the suspect (i thought it was broken)
  • deo-s for the first like week and a half of dlc2 (i thought it'd be not just broken but qb-within-two-weeks broken)
  • archaludon until partway through the suspect (i was firmly anti-ban until i tried it on rain myself)
  • iron boulder between the time when its stats were leaked and the time when it actually became playable (c'mon, everyone thought that shit was gonna be broken)
  • pecharunt until a couple weeks after it released (i thought it'd be a stall staple)
 
i refuse to take that l, iron valiant was the pioneer of fast sleep even if no one realized it at the time. there were multiple reasons i was pushing for a valiant ban and for darkrai not to drop, but the biggest one was because a full sleep ban didn't seem like an option that would ever be on the table at that time

what i will take the l on, though, is my opinions on:
  • gliscor at the beginning of dlc1 (i laughed at it being on the first survey)
  • sneasler in home and the first half or so of dlc1 (i thought it was cheap but fine)
  • walking wake during the suspect (i thought it was broken)
  • deo-s for the first like week and a half of dlc2 (i thought it'd be not just broken but qb-within-two-weeks broken)
  • archaludon until partway through the suspect (i was firmly anti-ban until i tried it on rain myself)
  • iron boulder between the time when its stats were leaked and the time when it actually became playable (c'mon, everyone thought that shit was gonna be broken)
  • pecharunt until a couple weeks after it released (i thought it'd be a stall staple)
I was more referring to how you were constantly preaching that iron valiant was broken, both with hypnosis and without hypnosis in DLC1 I believe, though do correct me if I am wrong, and you were kinda laughed at. I didn't mean to offend you, sorry if I did. You were definitely right about hypnosis valiant.
The boulder opinion did remind me that I did say that boulder was underwhelming, which did become true. Though this is from the same person who said Deo-S was broken full stop.
 
There's two motivations behind a Tera Blast ban.

The first, which is primarily seen among people who dislike Tera and want to chip away at it to prove the mechanic is a problem, views it at as way to nerf Terastalization. The basic argument is "Look, we nerfed Tera, it's still a problem, we need to move on to a ban!"

This is the minority view, and almost exclusively among people who can't make suspect tests or write coherent posts supporting their position.

The second, whose supporters span the full range of opinions on Tera, views it as a chance to make things a little more predictable. There's secondary motivations - some view it as a way to reduce bans (Regieleki comes back, Volc drops off the radar, etc.), some to make matchups more stable (Kingambit needs Tera Blast to beat a healthy Great Tusk, for example), some as a way to reduce threat diversity and make team building easier - but at its core, they fault the move itself.

This view doesn't regard the move as overpowered, but still a problem due to being unhealthy. Here's a bit from current tiering policy:



Threat saturation imposes sharp limits on team building options, and in this view, Tera Blast is a significant contributor to threat saturation while being preferable to banning a couple mons.
I am anti-Tera, but I never really believed that a Tera Blast ban would do much. Maybe you nerf a couple Contrary mons and Volc, but the core issues are largely the same. It's also the solution that I feel does the least to address Tera's worst problems. Things like the 1 turn Tera reverse card or the stacking bonus multipliers still exist in an entirely unbalanced scope.

The thing that may change my mind is Regieleki. Seeing more strong electric moves in the tier again would seem like a positive thing to me. I don't know if Raging Neck will get banned at some point, but Eleki fills a different niche. It wouldn't get dropped like Zapdos. We would once again see at least a little more diversity in electric type attackers in OU.

Seeing a pokemon faster than Deoxys Speed would probably be good to prevent certain Speed creep, pun intended. Well, it seems good to me because Regieleki has one dimensional coverage. So that being the fastest mon seems easier to prep for than D-Speed's diverse coverage and unpredictable sets.

The thing that will probably keep me from changing my mind is Tera electric with the Transistor multiplier at base 200 speed. Immunities or not, that seems pretty dumb. A tera Blast still does nothing to really address the problem of too many stacking bonus multipliers. Without the Regieleki factor, I'm just not sure how much a Tera Blast ban really changes for the tier dynamic. Serperior and Enamorus don't need nerfs. Volc might, but it also might be too strong even without Tera Blast because of Tera Quiver Dance turns.
 
I am anti-Tera, but I never really believed that a Tera Blast ban would do much. Maybe you nerf a couple Contrary mons and Volc, but the core issues are largely the same. It's also the solution that I feel does the least to address Tera's worst problems. Things like the 1 turn Tera reverse card or the stacking bonus multipliers still exist in an entirely unbalanced scope.

The thing that may change my mind is Regieleki. Seeing more strong electric moves in the tier again would seem like a positive thing to me. I don't know if Raging Neck will get banned at some point, but Eleki fills a different niche. It wouldn't get dropped like Zapdos. We would once again see at least a little more diversity in electric type attackers in OU.

Seeing a pokemon faster than Deoxys Speed would probably be good to prevent certain Speed creep, pun intended. Well, it seems good to me because Regieleki has one dimensional coverage. So that being the fastest mon seems easier to prep for than D-Speed's diverse coverage and unpredictable sets.

The thing that will probably keep me from changing my mind is Tera electric with the Transistor multiplier at base 200 speed. Immunities or not, that seems pretty dumb. A tera Blast still does nothing to really address the problem of too many stacking bonus multipliers. Without the Regieleki factor, I'm just not sure how much a Tera Blast ban really changes for the tier dynamic. Serperior and Enamorus don't need nerfs. Volc might, but it also might be too strong even without Tera Blast because of Tera Quiver Dance turns.
If Tera blast gets the boot, I’d expect regieleki to come back to OU. However, it won’t have much coverage without Tera blast and would play a similar role to gen 8. Also, serperior and enamorus will probably fall off the OU tier most likely.
 
I'm curious, is this a bad thing? This is something that has been uttered since the start of the generation and to me it looks like meta observation; not a way to tier if it has.
I don't think it's a bad thing inherently. My comment about it is mostly an observation on how it contributes to the offensive profile of the tier, to that effect it contributes quite significantly.

If anything it seems like a clearly conscious decision on GFs part to make the singles meta more offensive, similar to the Toxic change. Can't think of any other good reason for the increased and skewed distribution as these changes don't really effect in-game or doubles too much.

but I never really believed that a Tera Blast ban would do much. Maybe you nerf a couple Contrary mons and Volc, but the core issues are largely the same. It's also the solution that I feel does the least to address Tera's worst problems. Things like the 1 turn Tera reverse card or the stacking bonus multipliers still exist in an entirely unbalanced scope.
Aside from the Policy skipping that a Tera Blast ban favors all of the above are reasons why it just doesn't make any sense. It just doesn't do enough. All it would accomplish is shuffling around some mons and matchups without addressing the major issues the mechanic produces....again, just a bandaid on a gunshot wound.
 
Tera fun. But Tera blast would remove ~some~ of the 'threat saturation' where we could maybe save a few mons from being banned, though none of the three on the current chopping block. But it would bring back Regileki, who truly got the bad end of the stick this generation with transistor being WRONG prior to his ban :( So I for one am open to Tera Blast Ban- Serperior and whatever tera Volcarona are too mons I struggle to be propery prepared for after considering higher priorities in team building... For serperior I basically just attack with whoever I have in that isn't dozo to keep sub from going up then finish with Ghould if I have to, or Rillombee if I've managed to keep my sash which I usually do save if I serp in the line up to keep it from getting the speed boost.
 
If Tera blast gets the boot, I’d expect regieleki to come back to OU. However, it won’t have much coverage without Tera blast and would play a similar role to gen 8. Also, serperior and enamorus will probably fall off the OU tier most likely.
The funny thing is you COULD add it to the list of Spinners that get past Gholdengo at that point if it was legal

252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 189-223 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hates the lack of coverage but that alone would lead someone to use it as a Spinner
 
The funny thing is you COULD add it to the list of Spinners that get past Gholdengo at that point if it was legal

252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 189-223 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hates the lack of coverage but that alone would lead someone to use it as a Spinner
i mean, if we're talking about a ban of tera blast only and leaving the rest of tera untouched, you don't necessarily have to worry about ghold doing any spinblocking:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Tera Electric Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 378-446 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(specs eleki is bad, don't use it)

(not that you can use eleki right now anyway)
 
Welp, guess that's it. gg everybody. RIP OU.
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Okay, to be more real, I meant more like if tusk and gambit become UU, which would be crazy. Though to be fair, you are right and that kinda scares me.
Home plus the DLC added over 250 Pokemon to the game. This is a much bigger increase that is added in a single generation.

Yeah, of course the meta is going to be drastically different when you're basically adding 2 generations worth of mons to the mix. And that's not even mentioning the Moveset changes.
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
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noooo I missed the fun :( semantics-based online arguments are my THING, y'all can't just have them while I'm asleep!

Anyway, I thought of something recently: has anyone ever tried Tera Ice Gouging Fire with Chilly Reception support? The thought came to me when comparing Fire to Baxcalibur as stupid-bulky DD sweepers. You do unfortunately lose the ability to fuck over iron boulder, but in exchange, you lose the crippling weaknesses to ground and dragon, and the snow defense boost gives you a pseudo-resistance to many strong physical attacks, even uninvested:
green = 3HKO or less
blue = 2HKO
red = OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 126-148 (35.8 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 252-296 (71.7 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 132-156 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 112-133 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 93.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Superpower over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 282-334 (80.3 - 95.1%) -- not a KO
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 146-174 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 134-158 (38.1 - 45%) -- approx. 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire: 306-362 (87.1 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 222-264 (63.2 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 210-248 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tera Fighting Iron Boulder Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 210-248 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Gouging Fire in Snow: 204-242 (58.1 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
as you can see, a good portion of strong physical attacks now fail to even 3HKO you, which is incredibly powerful, as it allows you to set up to +2, and I don't need to tell you that a +2 Gouging Fire WRECKS the tier.

The downside, of course, is that morning sun no longer heals 50% and because of this, you're left at rather low health by the time your sweep starts. That's why I typically run Burning Bulwark in place of morning sun; it protects from priority moves like Glide, Espeed, and Bullet Punch and renders them weak enough to not KO even at ~30% or so, especially if it's still snowing. The set is Heat Crash/DD/BB/Filler. Last slot can be EQ or Tera Blast Ice; I prefer TB Ice to hit dragons, but eq hits tran and some bulky waters harder. I enjoy personally using BE on this set to help compensate for weaker power of heat crash vs your other options, plus monkey brain like big number, but boots might be better

So, am I cooking?
You are not a chef.

Chefs know when they are cooking, and when they are done, they enjoy a delicious meal. At no point in this process do they ask themselves "am I cooking?"

Do you want to know who asks themselves and others if they are cooking? Toddlers who can barely see over the stove as they turn the gas all the way up. Cavemen who just discovered fire and threw all of their possessions in it. Early 20-somethings who base their diet on ramen but still manage to fuck it up more often than not.

When you ask me if you're cooking, I already know what I'm about to see. I don't even need to open the post. 'Curse Trailblaze Mamoswine' is inedible. 'Tera Ground Soft Sand Cryogonal' is not on any menu l've seen. And 'Choice Scarf Sucker Punch Furret' has never been part of a balanced breakfast.

You would know this though, if you ever took the time to try your dish before presenting it to me. Unfortunately, I can't stop you from posting your creations. Everybody has to start from somewhere. But please, instead of asking if you cooked, ask if what you put on the table is even food.

TB ice gouging fire is cool :] But I'm not sure that it's better than existing sets
Anti-synergy with morning sun is unfortunate, I feel like bulky dd swipe or CB under sun have a higher ceiling, able to blow past or set up on bulky grounds without spending tera.
The main benefit to me is blitzing past toxic gliscor, but more and more gliscor are opting for u-turn, taunt, SD, and other more offensive sets now that defense teams have options like skarm to set hazards.
The defense boost in snow is cool but unserious, just use tb ice as needed. GF and glowking are good mons independently and I don't think they have the best synergy together.
 
Anyone want to talk about how powerful Waterpon is right now? Now that Arch is banned this thing can go berserk. It slots excellently onto rain and synergizes nicely with Barraskewda by taking advantage of opposing Dozo and Mola. Meanwhile, rain boosts Ivy Cudgel to nuclear damage levels.
 
Anyone want to talk about how powerful Waterpon is right now? Now that Arch is banned this thing can go berserk. It slots excellently onto rain and synergizes nicely with Barraskewda by taking advantage of opposing Dozo and Mola. Meanwhile, rain boosts Ivy Cudgel to nuclear damage levels.
Views from the council are talking about it.
 
i enjoy reading the comments where people say certain things are broken. in the past few pages ive seen garg, waterpon, roaring moon, gouging fire, raging bolt, kingambit mentioned. And usually those people will have a comment in there, where they cant understand why others consider "x"pokemon broken. I think its a funny indicator of how thinly spread we all are in the teambuilder. you want tusk as an offensive check to gambit and gouging fire but really you also want treads to manage raging bolt. you want clodsire as the unaware pokemon for volcarona but you also want dondozo for roaring moon/gouging fire. its impossible tough to defensively cover everything, whatever you pick will seem easy to handle. i think thats what pushes people to opposite ends of the spectrum its either HO or stall. I keep trying my best to make fat balance work, but the sets i have to use arent exactly fun for me or my opponent. I'll be interested to see the next survey's "fun" score. I dont think itll be very high
 
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