Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Test Incoming]

another big one is that things are immune to electric. nothing's immune to dark. that means there are a lot more available pokemon that can shut down a thunderclap 50/50 than a sucker punch one, and they can do it more easily because you don't have to worry about defenses or chip against thunderclap—a tusk at 100% hp doesn't fear sucker punch or thunderclap, while a tusk at 1% hp fears sucker immensely and has to actually play the 50/50 but is still just as confident against thunderclap
I think for this reason HO tends to handle Bolt a bit easier than Gambit. Whereas a well-made balance team can handle Gambit but gets demolished by Weather Ball Bolt.

HO doesn't mind sacrificing a mon and revenge-killing Bolt, which is easier because ground types are immune to thunderclap. On the other hand, balance functions as a cohesive unit and struggles when Bolt always claims at least one kill. And Bolt has more opportunities to set up or force a switch against balance compared to HO.

On the other hand, balance can afford to slot on a dedicated defensive Gambit check like Dozo/ID Skarm, which is absent on HO.

All this reinforces how Bolt and Gambit have fundamental differences in their offensive presence.
 
Will vote ban to all 3 of the mentioned Mons without hesitation, suffered them enough. As for which should be the order, I think it's Bolt>Fire>Moon. But still, if any of these Mons is suspected, I vote Ban, they restrict building way too much.
i would vote ban too but i think ull kill the ladder with that :smirk: 3 less broken mons to spam my precious elo what to do!!!
 
Will vote ban to all 3 of the mentioned Mons without hesitation, suffered them enough. As for which should be the order, I think it's Bolt>Fire>Moon. But still, if any of these Mons is suspected, I vote Ban, they restrict building way too much.
Completely agree. Moon might be slightly more managable, but Gouging Fire and Raging Bolt restrict teambuilding far too much. Gouging Fire has no real answers. Defensive Tusk, Lando-T, Garg, and Dozo sometimes can do fire vs it but it has so much bulk that what ever damage Tusk / Lando-T do deal just bounce off after Morning Sun (esp w/ Tera). I already said my piece about Great neck. Roaring Moon isn't as bad to deal with, but dealing with another super OP HO threat with super high attack / Speed, Booster Energy, and really good bulk isn't what the tier needs imo. Furthermore, all three of these mons make it an even bigger nightmare to deal with Kingambit, since oftentimes, our Gambit check are our Gouging Fire / Raging Bolt / Roaring Moon checks (Tusk, Lando-T, Skarm, Corv). Maybe this is a Gambit issue too, but regardless, some changes need to be made so it isn't so easy to get overwhelmed by all these guys.

I will be voting 5 on Moon, Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, and Ogerpon-W in the next survey so we could perhaps get some quickbans going.
 
Raging bolt is many things

Tall, Raging, powerful and funny

But its not as spammable as people would think because of the many ground types
But this is not an anti ban argument because im not ready to fully make one, its just not the free elo machine people claim it is
The new cobalion set will be dropped later today, forgot to post the full thing
 
Completely agree. Moon might be slightly more managable, but Gouging Fire and Raging Bolt restrict teambuilding far too much. Gouging Fire has no real answers. Defensive Tusk, Lando-T, Garg, and Dozo sometimes can do fire vs it but it has so much bulk that what ever damage Tusk / Lando-T do deal just bounce off after Morning Sun (esp w/ Tera). I already said my piece about Great neck. Roaring Moon isn't as bad to deal with, but dealing with another super OP HO threat with super high attack / Speed, Booster Energy, and really good bulk isn't what the tier needs imo. Furthermore, all three of these mons make it an even bigger nightmare to deal with Kingambit, since oftentimes, our Gambit check are our Gouging Fire / Raging Bolt / Roaring Moon checks (Tusk, Lando-T, Skarm, Corv). Maybe this is a Gambit issue too, but regardless, some changes need to be made so it isn't so easy to get overwhelmed by all these guys.
Agreed. The tier will be a better place with these three gone.

Raging bolt is many things

Tall, Raging, powerful and funny

But its not as spammable as people would think because of the many ground types
I dislike when arguments like this are so dumbed down/generalized to the point of being disingenuous. What are the many ground types? How are these ground types faring against weather ball Bolt? How are common team structures faring against Bolt after it terastalizes and takes out the opposing ground type while surviving at 50%+ HP?

Bolt was third in usage last month. If that isn't "spammable", then nothing is.
 
Okay, so I know we are talking about the three dragon threats, but sticky webs is still kinda bs. I have single handedly gone from 1050 elo to 1300 elo by just using sticky web. I couldn't even do that when using arch rain, which was just banned. Not saying that sticky webs should be banned, but it still is bs. Part of its strength is that it is unexpected, but I am going to abuse that to gain Elo. I may for once reach 1500 elo.
 
Wow many people wanting to ban Raging Bolt. I don’t think I’ve even seen one in ten or so games, and when I do it’s pretty chippable and chunkable
 
My hot take:
I think Kingambit is more oppressive than Raging Bolt. I'm seeing them being compared a lot, and I think Kingambit is due for a retest now that we are presumably at the end of the DLC pipeline.

Kingambit has arguably a much better defensive typing. It's immune to toxic and resists rocks. Nothing is immune to its dark STAB which notably threatens all but the bulkiest resists. It also epitomizes making use of multiple tera types. Meanwhile, Raging Bolt relies on weather to overcome many of its checks, restricting the playstyles where it can leverage its full power.

I think it is interesting to look at how stall answers these two mons since a well-built stall team has to defensively answer every relevant threat to some capacity. For Kingambit, Dondozo is typically the check of choice. However, it needs tera fighting to check the tera dark Kingambits which means saving tera all the way to the endgame just to wait and see if Kingambit is actually tera dark. The alternative go-to is Talonflame of all things because it has a fast wisp. This is considered a significant enough niche that stall players consider tflame to be a top 10 option on stall despite being a mon that on paper has no business in OU. On the other hand, Raging Bolt is fairly simple to check. Clodsire handles any variant without weather ball, and Blissey walls it easily. There is no cheeky tera type that allows Bolt to bypass Blissey. Blissey is free to run whatever tera type it wants.

This is not to say that banworthiness can be determined solely by how many hoops stall has to jump through to beat it. If that were the case, Stored Power (wouldn't mind that), Ursaluna, and Hoopa-U would be banned. However, if we're getting ready to suspect Raging Bolt, it can't be ignored that Kingambit is not only similar but also arguably better.
 
I think we should be discussing Raging Bolt, Roaring Moon, and Gouging Fire a lot right now. Perhaps in that order.
Appreciate seeing Gouging and Raging being discussed, but like Niko, I think Gouging should be a top priority. That mon feels like a ZardX holding an item, having so much bulk providing him too many setup opportunities. The same logic applies to Raging, its absurd bulk makes it able to set up even on Glowking. Unlike Walking Wake, those two are flexible in the builder, fitting in more balanced builds as strong win conditions.
Roaring Moon is more unidimensional, and I think some positioning shuts it down. You can’t burn tera as easily as during DLC1 metagame, and I think Moon is better as a progress tool with Koff. It won’t flip games on its own, but it’ll help teammates to make progress.
Gouging and Raging are a top priority for me, then we can see how the metagame will be shaped by those suspects/bans.
 
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I just reached 1444 on showdown. My current team is Zamazenta, Goodra-H, Enamorous, Roaring Moon, Ditto and Blastoise (still testing Blastoise)

Roaring Moon and Zamazenta are incredibly broken. I have swept hole teams with both.

I'm also sick of battling the same rain teams. Get original.

The most overrated pokemon is still imo Kingambit. I'm truly surprised by the fuss.
 
I just reached 1444 on showdown. My current team is Zamazenta, Goodra-H, Enamorous, Roaring Moon, Ditto and Blastoise (still testing Blastoise)

Roaring Moon and Zamazenta are incredibly broken. I have swept hole teams with both.

I'm also sick of battling the same rain teams. Get original.

The most overrated pokemon is still imo Kingambit. I'm truly surprised by the fuss.
Archaludon has gotten banned, so later you’ll play less rain teams I guess. I also believe that most teams currently are able to handle both moon and zamazenta, since they are known threats that are decently easy to fit checks on your team for.
 
Archaludon beaned. Not what I wanted but it's probably the right choice tbh. Hope this is a marked improvement for the metagame (even if I have my doubts about this being the big ban it needs)

I just reached 1444 on showdown. My current team is Zamazenta, Goodra-H, Enamorous, Roaring Moon, Ditto and Blastoise (still testing Blastoise)

Roaring Moon and Zamazenta are incredibly broken. I have swept hole teams with both.

I'm also sick of battling the same rain teams. Get original.

The most overrated pokemon is still imo Kingambit. I'm truly surprised by the fuss.
low mid 1400s is not a gauge for brokenness
Roaring Spoon is absolutely broken but zama is absolutely fine. Kingambit really isn't overrated he's consistently top 3 in usage for a reason

My hot take:
I think Kingambit is more oppressive than Raging Bolt. I'm seeing them being compared a lot, and I think Kingambit is due for a retest now that we are presumably at the end of the DLC pipeline.

Kingambit has arguably a much better defensive typing. It's immune to toxic and resists rocks. Nothing is immune to its dark STAB which notably threatens all but the bulkiest resists. It also epitomizes making use of multiple tera types. Meanwhile, Raging Bolt relies on weather to overcome many of its checks, restricting the playstyles where it can leverage its full power.

I think it is interesting to look at how stall answers these two mons since a well-built stall team has to defensively answer every relevant threat to some capacity. For Kingambit, Dondozo is typically the check of choice. However, it needs tera fighting to check the tera dark Kingambits which means saving tera all the way to the endgame just to wait and see if Kingambit is actually tera dark. The alternative go-to is Talonflame of all things because it has a fast wisp. This is considered a significant enough niche that stall players consider tflame to be a top 10 option on stall despite being a mon that on paper has no business in OU. On the other hand, Raging Bolt is fairly simple to check. Clodsire handles any variant without weather ball, and Blissey walls it easily. There is no cheeky tera type that allows Bolt to bypass Blissey. Blissey is free to run whatever tera type it wants.

This is not to say that banworthiness can be determined solely by how many hoops stall has to jump through to beat it. If that were the case, Stored Power (wouldn't mind that), Ursaluna, and Hoopa-U would be banned. However, if we're getting ready to suspect Raging Bolt, it can't be ignored that Kingambit is not only similar but also arguably better.
not to be a smartass (ok maybe a little) but what if, and hear me out, both are broken.
 
I think gouging fire should be suspected, because the diversity in sets is a bit crazy. The Tera fire cb sets with protosynthesis attack and raging fury under sun are basically impossible to switch into, as even Dondozo gets 2HKOed by raging fury Tera fire under sun. This compounded with the lack of common sturdy fire resists (and nothing really gets more bulky than dozo) and it is an insane wallbreaker for sun. Not only this, but it can also use a Dragon Dance set, turning it into an especially threatening sweeper given its huge power and bulk meaning that it can set up on many common ou Pokémon. This makes it good already, but in my opinion the innovation of the breaking swipe sets has pushed it over the edge. Now not only do you have to worry about if it is banded, figuring out it’s not, and finally getting in your counter, now once you Tera water your phys def great tusk, it literally just Tera fairys and spams breaking swipe. I feel that the diversity in sets for gouging combined with the cb set being practically unwallable makes me feel like it is unhealthy and too hard to check for the meta.
 
I think gouging fire should be suspected, because the diversity in sets is a bit crazy. The Tera fire cb sets with protosynthesis attack and raging fury under sun are basically impossible to switch into, as even Dondozo gets 2HKOed by raging fury Tera fire under sun. This compounded with the lack of common sturdy fire resists (and nothing really gets more bulky than dozo) and it is an insane wallbreaker for sun. Not only this, but it can also use a Dragon Dance set, turning it into an especially threatening sweeper given its huge power and bulk meaning that it can set up on many common ou Pokémon. This makes it good already, but in my opinion the innovation of the breaking swipe sets has pushed it over the edge. Now not only do you have to worry about if it is banded, figuring out it’s not, and finally getting in your counter, now once you Tera water your phys def great tusk, it literally just Tera fairys and spams breaking swipe. I feel that the diversity in sets for gouging combined with the cb set being practically unwallable makes me feel like it is unhealthy and too hard to check for the meta.
mud slap great tusk is the new tech trust
pros:
doesn't get nerfed by breaking swipe's attack drain
STAB
lowers accuracy
can't miss

cons:
kinda weak
 
Glad the bridge was banned.

In using rain on ladder to get to proper grips with it and why I think Arch is dumb, I agree that Raging Bolt was also fucking stupid and needs to be addressed. Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire are also problematic.

Probs would want Bolt > Fire > Moon in terms of suspect order. After which I'd like to think we'll be pretty comfortable in the immediate term.
 
Probs would want Bolt > Fire > Moon in terms of suspect order. After which I'd like to think we'll be pretty comfortable in the immediate term.
Then we're probably gonna go back to how Kingambit, Kyurem, and even Tera is stupid.
But yeah Bolt should be suspected next and Fire afterward.
 
Then we're probably gonna go back to how Kingambit, Kyurem, and even Tera is stupid.
But yeah Bolt should be suspected next and Fire afterward.
Look we've never left kingambit's stupidity he's been top 10 the entire generation and top 3 recently. Genuinely why are we still putting up with his shit I don't want to put a fighting type on every team anymore.
 
CBand + Sun + Tera with both proto Speed and Attack sweeps entire archetypes, and Breaking Swipe + DD variants beat even Dondozo.
"But Dozo can perform Body Press", GFire simply starts performing Tera Ghost.
"But Dozo can run Tera Fairy'', becoming weak to Iron Head seems like a very suboptimized alternative for an already very restricted number of answers. Hello Tera Fairy Air Baloon Heatran.

Raging Bolt is very flexible (Weather Ball/CM/Taunt/Solar Beam) and even though it hasn't been fully exploited imo, it is very problematic.

RMoon is the most predictable but equally oppressive.

QB GFire > Suspect RBolt > Suspect RMoon.
 
Just gonna say this but if you are fearing that sun is taking over as the new oppressive archtype.... there is a forgotten threat that used to be in OU you know. Iron Moth!

Just destroyed an entire sun team with this mon on this ladder including Gouging Fire. In fact if any sun teams are in any disadvantagous position it is easy for Moth to just sweep them entirely. Sun also has some very easy to exploit mons like Torkoal or Walking Wake that just dropped a Draco so it is easy for Moth to just end behind a sub too. The only hope they have is roaring moon but only if Moth is not behind a sub and encore H-Lily which they have to position really well and chances are Moth already claimed a bunch of kills. I would love to post replays but at this point I have probably posted so much of them, it might seem like spamming

That said I understand that Gouging Fire can look completely overwhelming sometimes. The set-up variants can find a lot of opportunities to setup thanks to it its bulk and good typing. Despite it's variety, you can guess which set it is based on which Protoboost it has(although stuff like offensive Morning sun is not that rare as well). I usually play really aggressively against those variants as not to give them too many boost and they are not that threatning offensivley at +1.

CB variants in the sun: I feel guilty for using him and but I have so much fun with this mon (both attack and speed variants). Just turn your brain off, and click the button. Even Dragonite with Multiscale takes around half and he doesn't even KO you back with earthquake . Even if he doesn't outright sweep teams, the opponent will be forced to Tera their bulkiest mon which opens up other breakers and sweepers. Wanna save up that Tera for Gambit? Too bad, you gonna have to Tera your Lando JUST to get any type of chip against this mon and not let it devour your whole team. Which makes fighting Gambit a lot less frustrating, ironically. Best counters are bulky flash fire mons , other weather and a very bulky variant of Gouging Fire himself. Walking Wake can only come in once.

Not gonna say whetever he is broken or not though. I am having a lot of fun with this mon and I will be sad if he will be gone. There IS counterplay but I am not gonna judge if it is gonna be sufficient.
 
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