Yeah ngl I say we unban archaludon and electro shot lol it really was a case of the tier overreacting about a new threat imo
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Also happy birthday Finch!
I am sad kyurem is banned but at least this means dragonite has a shot of actually being the best dragon type...please
I am sad kyurem is banned but at least this means dragonite has a shot of actually being the best dragon type...please
Happy birthday Finch. Also thanks for running things smoothly.We are working on different suspect formats for the future including how threads are handled and reqs, so stay tuned for that in the near future
And thanks everyone for the birthday wishes. Happy national coffee day to yall
THAT'S RIGHT BABYYYYYYY
and i got it within a quarter of a percent too
also heavy duty boots finch
I'm really just some random guy with opinions, but I do want to point out that this suspect wasn't all bad. I really loved how involved the top players were, since it feels like usually only a few outside of finch and ausma provide commentary. While I wish the first half could have been more civil, toward the latter half of the suspect, arguments were generally very strong, respectful, and convincing from both sides. Hopefully, the implementation of a qualified-only thread will encourage further debate among the tier's best minds in the future.
While this was probably the most hyped and contentious suspect after tera and gambit, I don't think it was as consequential. First, I do not think
was one of the main forces discouraging Zap-King-Lu type structures, at least not directly. These structures tended to fit 
or 
as win cons, which can switch into dd/mixed kyurem at least once and force it out, which may alone be enough given Lu's hazards. Further, 
was a solid enough scout/pivot into special kyurem. especially with the adaptation of psychic noise for subtect. Its relation to Zap-King-Lu is more relevant when discussed in the context of Kyurem's role in preserving Gliscor. But for now, I don't think the viability of these structures will be too affected until/unless future tiering action occurs.
is almost certainly the main winner of this ban, but I think it's important to look past the type chart when discussing its relationship with Kyurem. First, Kyurem was not a Gliscor counter, and could not really come in without being crippled, as every Gliscor runs either Knock or Toxic nowadays. Gliscor's whole shtick is lasting the entire game, so a short term check doesn't really prevent Gliscor from executing its gameplan, at least in a vacuum. And it has also been discussed to death that Kyurem is not the only viable ice beamer, with options like 
and 
being arguably even more splashable and viable in the first place. However, what Kyurem did do was:
1. Pressure the defensive backbones of Gliscor teams:
There is no win con that outlasts SD Gliscor (if it doesn't tera) long term, so the best option would be to beat your opponent before Gliscor inevitably beats you. Kyurem is uniquely impossible to counter, in particular thriving vs the balance teams Gliscor usually fits on. Gliscor gave Kyurem opportunities (even if not in the long term) to wreak havoc, and so by removing Kyurem from the equation, Gliscor teams get significantly more freedom in both the builder and in-game, e.g. maybe some will be dropping balloon tink for a less passive/chippable mon. Kyurem was arguably the biggest factor encouraging Gliscor to run max speed as well, so Gliscor may now have more flexibility in relation to EV spreads, though I think max speed is probably still the way to go.
2. Force Gliscor to tera
One of the best ways to beat SD Gliscor on non-offense teams is to force it to tera on your terms instead of your opponent's, and stack spikes. Yeah, Gliscor could switch out on Kyurem... but to who lol? Ideally, Gliscor only wants to tera if it can secure a sweep or irreparable damage to your defensive core. Given how difficult Kyurem was to switch into, it provided a stronger incentive for the Gliscor user to just expend tera as a way to minimise losses, as opposed to something weaker like deoxys.
Future tiering action
Moving forward, I would support no further pokemon bans as I believe the current metagame is very fun and diverse. However, I think it would be a little silly to not at least suspect test if SD remains at its current level of potency, if only on principle. It's probably the most problematic mon in the tier right now, and is only getting better with the ban. I would still oppose a ban on grounds that SD has a poor matchup into offense, forces balance styles to be more proactive instead of do nothing regen spam (which isn't an unhealthy impact at all), and does take time to get going. We still have as probably be the best substitute for Kyurem's Ice Beam, and it's not at all a bad pokemon.
Before Gliscor, I believe a tera blast suspect and hopefully ban should come next, giving metagame shifts/adapations to time to occur. It is not broken, but inherently unhealthy. Its very purpose is to allow Pokemon to access coverage they shouldn't in order to beat things they shouldn't, with no real counterplay except dodging the matchup or it being a relevant enough meta pick such that it should be reasonably prepared for (e.g. ground moth). It is different from tera itself as for example, at least you know tera will never give Iron Moth a move to hit Heatran with.
To people more receptive to value based arguments (which I disagree with but whatever):
Tera blast brings 0 value to the tier. There is no down side to its removal, unless you like lottery moth being able to beat things it shouldn't.
More importantly, it allows us to instantly free
(speed control, spinner) and at least retest 
. Regardless of how you feel about the Volc ban, I think we can all agree that Volc's defensive profile is greatly missed, even with Kyurem banned. Volcarona:
1. Checks:
, 
, 
, 
2. Discourages/Exploits:
(specifically wisp + draco over wisp + darts), (non tera fire/lum variants), (getting a kill means a free qd), 
(lottery simulator), and special spam in general
Finally, I started the suspect pro-ban and was gradually convinced that Kyurem was not broken. However, it really was an annoyance in the builder more than anything else, so it leaving is not something that I'm too disappointed about. Still, it wouldn't be very fair to one of the most borderline mons we have ever seen to not at least retest it if tera blast is banned, especially if is unbanned as well. Also would not be opposed to testing 
as perhaps the final tiering action of this gen.
While this was probably the most hyped and contentious suspect after tera and gambit, I don't think it was as consequential. First, I do not think
was one of the main forces discouraging Zap-King-Lu type structures, at least not directly. These structures tended to fit or as win cons, which can switch into dd/mixed kyurem at least once and force it out, which may alone be enough given Lu's hazards. Further, was a solid enough scout/pivot into special kyurem. especially with the adaptation of psychic noise for subtect. Its relation to Zap-King-Lu is more relevant when discussed in the context of Kyurem's role in preserving Gliscor. But for now, I don't think the viability of these structures will be too affected until/unless future tiering action occurs. is almost certainly the main winner of this ban, but I think it's important to look past the type chart when discussing its relationship with Kyurem. First, Kyurem was not a Gliscor counter, and could not really come in without being crippled, as every Gliscor runs either Knock or Toxic nowadays. Gliscor's whole shtick is lasting the entire game, so a short term check doesn't really prevent Gliscor from executing its gameplan, at least in a vacuum. And it has also been discussed to death that Kyurem is not the only viable ice beamer, with options like and being arguably even more splashable and viable in the first place. However, what Kyurem did do was:1. Pressure the defensive backbones of Gliscor teams:
There is no win con that outlasts SD Gliscor (if it doesn't tera) long term, so the best option would be to beat your opponent before Gliscor inevitably beats you. Kyurem is uniquely impossible to counter, in particular thriving vs the balance teams Gliscor usually fits on. Gliscor gave Kyurem opportunities (even if not in the long term) to wreak havoc, and so by removing Kyurem from the equation, Gliscor teams get significantly more freedom in both the builder and in-game, e.g. maybe some will be dropping balloon tink for a less passive/chippable mon. Kyurem was arguably the biggest factor encouraging Gliscor to run max speed as well, so Gliscor may now have more flexibility in relation to EV spreads, though I think max speed is probably still the way to go.
2. Force Gliscor to tera
One of the best ways to beat SD Gliscor on non-offense teams is to force it to tera on your terms instead of your opponent's, and stack spikes. Yeah, Gliscor could switch out on Kyurem... but to who lol? Ideally, Gliscor only wants to tera if it can secure a sweep or irreparable damage to your defensive core. Given how difficult Kyurem was to switch into, it provided a stronger incentive for the Gliscor user to just expend tera as a way to minimise losses, as opposed to something weaker like deoxys.
Future tiering action
Moving forward, I would support no further pokemon bans as I believe the current metagame is very fun and diverse. However, I think it would be a little silly to not at least suspect test
if SD remains at its current level of potency, if only on principle. It's probably the most problematic mon in the tier right now, and is only getting better with the ban. I would still oppose a ban on grounds that SD has a poor matchup into offense, forces balance styles to be more proactive instead of do nothing regen spam (which isn't an unhealthy impact at all), and does take time to get going. We still have as probably be the best substitute for Kyurem's Ice Beam, and it's not at all a bad pokemon.Before Gliscor, I believe a tera blast suspect and hopefully ban should come next, giving metagame shifts/adapations to
time to occur. It is not broken, but inherently unhealthy. Its very purpose is to allow Pokemon to access coverage they shouldn't in order to beat things they shouldn't, with no real counterplay except dodging the matchup or it being a relevant enough meta pick such that it should be reasonably prepared for (e.g. ground moth). It is different from tera itself as for example, at least you know tera will never give Iron Moth a move to hit Heatran with.To people more receptive to value based arguments (which I disagree with but whatever):
Tera blast brings 0 value to the tier. There is no down side to its removal, unless you like lottery moth being able to beat things it shouldn't.
More importantly, it allows us to instantly free
(speed control, spinner) and at least retest . Regardless of how you feel about the Volc ban, I think we can all agree that Volc's defensive profile is greatly missed, even with Kyurem banned. Volcarona:1. Checks:
, , , 2. Discourages/Exploits:
(specifically wisp + draco over wisp + darts), (non tera fire/lum variants), (getting a kill means a free qd), (lottery simulator), and special spam in generalFinally, I started the suspect pro-ban and was gradually convinced that Kyurem was not broken. However, it really was an annoyance in the builder more than anything else, so it leaving is not something that I'm too disappointed about. Still, it wouldn't be very fair to one of the most borderline mons we have ever seen to not at least retest it if tera blast is banned, especially if
is unbanned as well. Also would not be opposed to testing as perhaps the final tiering action of this gen.
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without kyurem..complaining has no punchline
anywho i have more actual serious thoughts from being a day 1 kyurem hater but i’ll talk about that later, thank you to all of those that voted suspects like this regardless of what side gets the win keep the community alive and im hoping to actually get my reqs for this next one regardless of if i vote or not
and more importantly happy birthday finchinator thank you for all your hard work on here hope you have a great day man :)
and more importantly happy birthday finchinator thank you for all your hard work on here hope you have a great day man :)
Whaa? Don't expect it to suddenly get balanced because it can't use that one move
It literally got banned because of Electro Shot, everyone agreed that outside of Rain it was a fine Mon.
Tiering doesn,t work like that, though, Mons are banned before abilities/moves. I do think that even with Electro Shot, Archaludon was fine, but I am in a minority.
I’m sorry, this shits funny
Seriously, some of y'all need to calm down. It's just a Kyurem suspect test lol, no reason to have a heart attack
At 8:30AM CET, arnimacarni is ready to project that KYUREM might be kicked out or might not be idk im about to have a heart attack how did i go to sleep and wake back up and still no result
And Christ, talking about a Tera Blast suspect? What is this forum smoking todayBefore Gliscor, I believe a tera blast suspect and hopefully ban should come next, giving metagame shifts/adapations to
happy birthday finchinator!
happy passing to the shadow realm kyurem!!
happy passing to the shadow realm kyurem!!
I personally don't see anything wrong with a Tera blast suspect, but for now, i believe the council will give OU some time to shape itself after the Kyurem ban, I'm interested to see which strategies will rise and i have my eyes on pokemon like Ting-Lu, Landorus, Gliscor and even Great Tusk to improve massively after Kyurem ban, they'll be very glad to not having to fear the Kyurem leading which seemed to happen pretty often in ladder.
Woger gets better as well now that there is one less Ivy cudgel resist in the tier.
I’m confused what you mean by this. Do you mean mons that can repeatedly switch into swords dance Gliscor, or specifically win conditions that can? Iron press
or 
are a particularly good matchup into sd gliscor and can out damage and survive it’s common moves (unless there is some unknown Tera blast electric Gliscor I’ve never heard about). Substitute swords dance 
is another, more niche, answer who loves to feed on SD as well, and I’m sure there are other pivots and non win-cons that can beat sd long termarchaludon would be a lot more balanced without being able to get free spatk boosts every turn while attacking at the same time. it would still be a top-tier threat on rain teams by slotting in thunder, and it would still be a crazy strong tank with stamina body press, but it wouldn't be able to pull the ridiculous snowballing bullshit that it was doing before, and that was the one thing people really had issue with. the general consensus was that archaludon was manageable and healthy outside of that, and i personally would be glad to see it back in the tier if not for that nightmare of a move. i fully support the anti-electroshot initiative
Archaludon @ Power Herb
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: Whatever
Any Nature
- Meteor Beam
- Thunder
- Body Press
- Iron Defense / Flash Cannon (Whatever works for a rain team)
The new rain threat
By long term I do mean both potential checks and other win cons. Maybe Hydrapple can have comparable longevity but it kind of needs its boots.I’m confused what you mean by this. Do you mean mons that can repeatedly switch into swords dance Gliscor, or specifically win conditions that can? Iron press
For corv and skarm, u can just sd then knock every time they come in and eventually expend all their roosts (pressure isn't enough to stall you out + most sd gliscors are knock/facade) since you can just switch out once they iron defense. Lando exploits spikes Gliscor but I don't see how it's an answer to SD scor, especially in the long term? I'm not sure on the exact set you are thinking of, but if you come in on +2 Gliscor I think you lose the 1v1 unless u tera smth wacky. Not to mention it can't come in on knock
Still, the potential for adaptations/metagame shifts are the reason why I don't think Gliscor should be suspected soon.
Why are you acting like a tera blast suspect is absurd? It has received noteworthy support from figures like ausma, and has been discussed by top players. This sort of baseless incredulity is generally quite unhelpful and I recommend that you read up on current topics for metagame discussion before acting like everyone is stupid.
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Would changing reqs to an elo requirement rather than a gxe requirement be an improvement? Call me bad at the game but I always thought that getting to 1600-1800 elo would be a much simpler process than having to go through low ladder 30-0. I just can't bear getting reqs because somehow i end up in low ladder hell staring down a Tera Bug Choice Band Heracross. (this would have to come with a time limit extension tho)
To add to DaddyBuzzwole's comment, weather sweepers in general can be a little stronger than other mons while still not being a problem, because the requirement for weather to be up means they require more support to function, and none of the weather setters are independently good mons. A rain team has to bring Pelipper, who is (apart from Drizzle) generously a PU mon, so every other member needs to be stronger than normal to make up for that weak link.
Minus Electro Shot, Arch would be a rain staple, very effectively covering some of the archetype's biggest defensive weaknesses, while benefitting itself from the weather with a 100% accuracy Thunder. Rain teams actually having a solid defensive core would provide a ton of options, and it's not hard to view Arch as 'too good' for how much it offers to the style, but even with its presence, rain teams wouldn't be dominating.
That said, a single move ban is off the table, so this is meant as an example of how one mon being a little too good on a specific style isn't a problem as long as the style itself is balanced. See also: early Walking Wake on sun teams.
Minus Electro Shot, Arch would be a rain staple, very effectively covering some of the archetype's biggest defensive weaknesses, while benefitting itself from the weather with a 100% accuracy Thunder. Rain teams actually having a solid defensive core would provide a ton of options, and it's not hard to view Arch as 'too good' for how much it offers to the style, but even with its presence, rain teams wouldn't be dominating.
That said, a single move ban is off the table, so this is meant as an example of how one mon being a little too good on a specific style isn't a problem as long as the style itself is balanced. See also: early Walking Wake on sun teams.
Still not quite at the skill and, more importantly, consistency, needed to get reqs but I got closer than ever before with just a lose streak around 1650 so I can't say it was all bad. By the end of things even I'm not sure if it was broken enough to be banned relative the other insane guys floating around the tier like Gambit, but I'll take this ban as a W because blud has just been annoying (dude low ladder apparently loves scarf kyu) and I am a simple guy
Happy wing day to Finch
Happy wing day to Finch
Depending on its speed tier, banded Rilla threatens Gliscor as well.I’m confused what you mean by this. Do you mean mons that can repeatedly switch into swords dance Gliscor, or specifically win conditions that can? Iron press
all right, now that kyurem is gone, a lot of people will want to talk about gliscor. way earlier in the dlc i wrote this post, and i want to address the points made in it and explain why they're no longer applicable:since the topic of gliscor came up, here are my thoughts on it.
gliscor was unequivocally broken in dlc1, but i don't think it is right now. very strong? yes. the best spikes setter in this endless bloody war against hazards? without a doubt. annoying as shit? absolutely. but banworthy? i don't think so, and here's why:
PART 1: NEW ANSWERS
between new moves, returning mons, and expanded movepools, dlc2 introduced some options that can beat gliscor 1v1 fairly easily:
now, you'll notice a lot of these assume gliscor is going to be tera water, which might make you wonder about tera dragon, which was a somewhat commonly seen alternative in dlc1. that brings me to my next point:
thanks to regaining triple axel, weavile is much more splashable than before and has a much easier time forcing tera water on gliscor. if something else on the team has tera'd, weavile is an offensive hard-counter to gliscor and can even use its protect turns to set up
for some reason, meowscarada also gets triple axel. (i'm not complaining, it just doesn't make much sense to me flavor-wise.) this lets it threaten gliscor similarly to weavile, with the added bonus of being able to hit it really hard with flower trick after tera water
primarina might fall out of ou eventually, but it's still a legitimately usable thing and i'm absolutely here for it. liquid voice psychic noise has the benefit of not only heavily denting gliscor but also preventing poison heal from working for a couple turns, so even if it does decide to tera, it still has to briefly deal with the fact that entropy exists. if gliscor's running knock off over toxic, psychic noise draining kiss primarina is actually capable of stalling out gliscor if it teras
i mean you just kinda sub and then click the leaf storm button, not exactly a grand strategy behind this one
PART 2: EIGHT FUCKING DRAGON TYPES
as we all know, dlc2 came with a massive rise in the quantity and quality of legal dragon-types. in addition to the existing dragapult, dragonite, and walking wake, we now also have raging bolt, gouging fire, roaring moon, kyurem, and archaludon, all of which are top-tier mons at the absolute minimum. this has come with a concurrent increase in viability to things that answer dragon-types well and a decrease in viability to things that don't. this means that gliscor's dlc1 answers that it would run tera dragon for—mainly waterpon and non-ice-beam manaphy—are waaaaay less common, and dragon as a defensive tera type in general is not great when the average ou match is seeing so many more dragon, fairy, and ice moves. thus, gliscor is kind of pigeonholed into a single good defensive tera type, which makes it a lot easier to predict if and when it clicks the button. in theory, it could get around this by running tera fairy, but that just shifts the problem from "eight fucking dragon types" to "seven fucking steel types", two of which are top 3 in usage
so gliscor's got more answers and its tera is easier to play around. but it's still plenty strong and can be very annoying if it does pop that tera. unfortunately, popping tera early is risky and gliscor really doesn't like doing it. which is a shame, because gliscor needs to be a water-type more often now thanks to:
PART 3: CLIMATE CHANGE
weather has made a comeback in a big way. every single weather condition got at least one new abuser in this dlc, and most of that is bad for gliscor on some level. here's how it breaks down:
so, in conclusion, that's why i feel that gliscor is not broken at this current period of sv ou: new direct answers, an environment that restricts its tera options, and shaky matchups against the three most relevant weathers. i do suspect there will eventually be bans that remove or hurt counterplay to gliscor, and it might cross that line again at some point in the future, but right now i think gliscor has enough new counterplay to it to no longer be broken
sand is the only weather gliscor isn't really worried about and it didn't get anything to directly contend with gliscor, but the return of excadrill means we have one more hazard remover, which means one more opportunity to undo gliscor's spikes progress. it's not much on its own, but even the small indirect nerfs add up. also, sand is by far the least relevant weather right now, which means that when a form of weather is up, it's most likely gonna be something that fucks over gliscor somehow
hail got kyurem, gliscor's worst matchup. not much to say here that wasn't already said earlier, kyurem claps gliscor six ways from sunday. alolan ninetales itself has also seen a bump in usage because of kyurem, and any mon with access to freeze-dry is a mon gliscor is very scared of
sun went from being a regular-sized problem for gliscor to a massive problem. in dlc1, walking wake was a terrible matchup for it already, but sun itself wasn't super popular for a number of reasons. now it's back in full force, bolstered by the new protosynthesis mons and the return of volcarona and roaring moon. despite not particularly liking the prospect of being stalled out by toxic/protect or having to eat an earthquake, all of those mons are threatening to gliscor on some level thanks to their setup capabilities as well as their ability to just hit it neutrally really fucking hard. and of course walking wake is still there, giving the exact same amount of problems to gliscor as before but more likely to have sun behind it
yes, gliscor can tera water to deal with rain's setters and water-type abusers. but those aren't the reason that rain got popular all of a sudden. the one doing the heavy lifting on that front is archaludon, which can massively punish gliscor after a tera with electro shot. if gliscor doesn't tera, it just kinda gets run over by the rest of the rain team
PART 1: WHAT ANSWERS?
a lot of post-dlc1 gliscor counterplay has fallen off quite a bit since this post was made. weavile, meowscarada, and skarmory are on fraud watch, serperior is a meme, deo-s has gone from top-tier to mid, and kyurem is banned. as a result of said ban, answers for gliscor are now at an all-time low for this dlc. although it's definitely possible that some gliscor answers may rise up in response to the kyurem ban, i think on the whole it won't amount to enough to keep gliscor manageable
PART 2: FOUR FUCKING DRAGON TYPES
tera dragon is a lot safer to run on gliscor these days. with archaludon, gouging fire, and kyurem being banned and walking wake falling off like crazy, there are a lot fewer strong dragon-type attacks being thrown around. waterpon's viability and usage have also risen massively since the time i wrote that post, which gives gliscor back one of its biggest reasons to run dragon as a defensive tera over water. kyurem's ban also means gliscor has to worry about ice less, which not only helps out its non-tera'd self massively but also puts less builder pressure on tera dragon. all this gives gliscor more variety and less predictability and makes it harder to cover for both in builder and when playing, especially when combined with the point i'm going to make in part 4 of this post (stay tuned!)
PART 3: CLIMATE CHANGE DENIAL
weather has massively fallen off since january. the archaludon ban dealt a crippling blow to rain, the gouging fire ban dealt a less crippling but still heavy blow to sun, the kyurem ban killed the tier's only abuser of snow (not that snow was a viable archetype, but it's still all over the place because of glowking), and excadrill just kind of plummeted immediately so that point about it being a spikes remover is no longer good. kyurem was holding rain back a lot and sun back a little, so those weathers might see some improvement with it gone, but i don't think it will be enough to meaningfully affect what gliscor does
now, those three points are just about how the meta's evolved and changed over the course of the past eight months in a lot of ways that are favorable for the gliscor sets that were being used back then. but what about the gliscor sets that are being used now? which brings me to my next point, and the thing i think pushes gliscor over the edge:
PART 4: THOSE DAMN SWORDS DANCE SETS
swords dance gliscor saw some play in dlc1 pre-ban and early dlc2, but it only recently started becoming a big thing. gliscor has gone from being mostly a hazard-setting poison-spreading knock-offing utility blob to being a nigh-immortal setup wincon that can also serve as a hazard-setting poison-spreading knock-offing utility blob. tera normal facade gives offensive gliscor answers yet another tera to worry about, and one with only one weakness to boot—supereffective hits are important against gliscor because it's really hard to chip, so minimizing the amount of types that can hit gliscor supereffectively (and protecting it from ghold/pult hex) is a pretty sweet bonus to an option that's primarily just to boost facade. non-facade sets like eq knock are broadly useful against wide swaths of the meta, especially with the utility that knock off provides. and recent discoveries are showing that sd gliscor can be ev'd to hit many dangerous speed tiers, so it's getting steadily more difficult to predict what can and can't revenge-kill this thing
so based on the falling off or banning of a lot of gliscor's early-dlc2 answers, and the rising of new gliscor sets that are putting a lot of strain on the meta, i suggest that the next tiering action, whenever that may be, should probably be against gliscor. now this comes with the caveat that i'm not calling for anything immediate—we're just fresh off of a kyurem ban, so we should give the meta time to settle just in case some new counterplay develops. who knows, some new mon might pop up that's super useful with ice tera blast or something, rilla might become actually good again, sinistcha might rise to wall the facade set, something else might cement itself as a way bigger problem, etc etc. but if things don't drastically change regarding gliscor, i recommend a suspect of it at some point in late fall or early winter
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