Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

RaikouLover said:
I heard about a Chestoresto Kommo-O making waves. Can anyone verify? Is that mon heat?
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I’ve only seen it in blunder & suaves Team Rocket Takeover series if you want to check out the video to see it in action (they didn’t make the set, they got it from somewhere). It looks heat, getting an omniboost and healing back to full seems great. It’s Boomburst + Flamethrower, tera normal.
 
RaikouLover said:
I heard about a Chestoresto Kommo-O making waves. Can anyone verify? Is that mon heat?
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It's a good set but it suffers from pretty much all the issues standard kommo-o sets suffer from. Generally predictable, doesn't really like ghosts/steels, weak to revenge killers, stuff like that.

Having full HP is super nice esp on a mon that's only really viable at 66% HP max but losing a moveslot and a +1 SpA from throat spray is a pretty big tradeoff. It's also one of those sets where you have to build specifically around it to be good.
 
One thing I'm wondering about Gliscor is if the U-turn sets used by players like 658Greninja will manage to make a splash. Running U-turn over Toxic/Knock will give it a much less immediate threat level, but in exchange lets it dance around bad matchups that try to switch in when Gliscor tries to setup hazards/SD on stuff that can't beat it. Doubt it would move the needle on whether Gliscor should be banned, but it would be nice to see.


Or people can make room for U-turn by just dropping Protect
 
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UltraSword said:
Oh boy gliscor suspect test. (DNB)

Anyway I want to discuss blissey. Is the any way it can be used outside of stall? I ask because it is the only thing (left) with heal bell and it has...decent special attack. Any thoughts?
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I would imagine Bulky Hazard Stack, but I sadly don't know any examples
 
It’s finally time for the exorcism. I’ve been waiting for this. God willing, Gl*scor will soon be banished.
HydreigonTheChild said:
i swear if this is gonna result in "gliscor isnt broken, this is more broken and we should suspect this instead" i will lose faith in ou

It will be interesting if the community can unite together to make a decision
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That is exactly what is going to happen.
 
:gliscor:
​
Don't have much time to go in-depth, but I've been very vocal about my want for a Gliscor ban for quite a while now and I'm happy to see it being suspected. 1LDK brought up a great point to me about Gliscor making thicc balance teams unbearable and I agree. Gliscor has suffocated stall and balance variety and additionally enables a lot of unhealthy matchups in OU. It can feel unbalanced at times; when you're playing stall, generally what constitutes unhealthy mons in my eyes is how easily they can force your opponent into the "loop", cycling their mons back and forcing them in and out at your whim. Gliscor not only enables this far too easily but is genuinely unpredictable thanks to the ever-growing variety of sets that it can run from hard stall to Swords Dance to balance lead and everything inbetween.

I genuinely feel that OU would be better-off if Gliscor got the proverbial yeet from the tier.
 
HydreigonTheChild said:
i swear if this is gonna result in "gliscor isnt broken, this is more broken and we should suspect this instead" i will lose faith in ou

It will be interesting if the community can unite together to make a decision
Click to expand...
Well, it is inevitable to compare a pokemon's power level to other's and if you perceive that there are several other pokemons that are stronger (and have not been banned or are not going to be tested) than the one you are evaluating, what conclusion can you extract if not that that is the power level that the community has found acceptable and therefore everything equal or below it must stay?
 
Morkal said:
:gliscor:
​
Don't have much time to go in-depth, but I've been very vocal about my want for a Gliscor ban for quite a while now and I'm happy to see it being suspected. 1LDK brought up a great point to me about Gliscor making thicc balance teams unbearable and I agree. Gliscor has suffocated stall and balance variety and additionally enables a lot of unhealthy matchups in OU. It can feel unbalanced at times; when you're playing stall, generally what constitutes unhealthy mons in my eyes is how easily they can force your opponent into the "loop", cycling their mons back and forcing them in and out at your whim. Gliscor not only enables this far too easily but is genuinely unpredictable thanks to the ever-growing variety of sets that it can run from hard stall to Swords Dance to balance lead and everything inbetween.

I genuinely feel that OU would be better-off if Gliscor got the proverbial yeet from the tier.
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If you hate facing fat teams you should be a stalwart DNB on Gliscor. Both SD and Toxic Gliscor are able to guarantee progress vs fat teams via Toxic putting them on a timer, or stacking hazards and knocking off their boots, or in SD's case out walling them and stacking boosts. Mola teams and bootspam teams both will become insufferable without Gliscor in the meta, and Gliscor's presence actually keeps the pace of the meta UP by completely shitting on passive teams and keeping the opponent playing proactively if they want to win. "It's really versatile, it gatekeeps bad teams, and I get impatient when people click protect" is not and never has been a good reason to ban something, and 1LDK is not a reliable source on whether a so-called "stall mon" should be banned
 
ianlazerbeem said:
If you hate facing fat teams you should be a stalwart DNB on Gliscor. Both SD and Toxic Gliscor are able to guarantee progress vs fat teams via Toxic + Spikes putting them on a timer, or stacking hazards and knocking off their boots, or in SD's case out walling them and stacking boosts. Mola teams and bootspam teams both will become insufferable without Gliscor in the meta, and Gliscor's presence actually keeps the pace of the meta UP by completely shitting on passive teams and keeping the opponent playing proactively if they want to win. "It's really versatile, it gatekeeps bad teams, and I get impatient when people click protect" is not and never has been a good reason to ban something, and 1LDK is not a reliable source on whether a so-called "stall mon" should be banned
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Gliscor might be good against fat but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s absolutely asinine on fat cores. Mola teams will become insufferable and that’s fine, we can just ban Mola because of how broken it is. Lots of broken threats are able to guaranteed progress against fat teams, doesn’t mean that they also can’t be broken on fat teams. As for bootspam teams getting better with the bastard scorpion gone, JFL cry about it, if you actually think bootspam teams are a problem then you just suck at the game.
 
Kyurem - Ghost Tera
"Shadow Kyurem"
:kyurem:
64px-GhostIC_SV.png

Spr_5b_646_s.png

Kyurem @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Icicle Spear
- Shadow Claw
- Rock Slide / Dual Wingbeat / Freeze-Dry* (Use Hasty Nature) / Iron Head

or
Spr_5b_646_s.png

Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Earth Power / Freeze-Dry

Dragon Dance Shadow Claw
:kyurem:
Specialized Technical Physical Attacker
​

Shadow Kyurem is quite honestly terrifying; this powerful Kyurem set does disgusting things to unprepared Deoxys-Speed, Gholdengo, Hatterene, Slowking-Galar; having a physical nuclear option further distinguishes Kyurem's incredible set variety. Tera Ghost is a phenomenal Tera-type for Kyurem as it can bait Fighting-type moves, turning its weakness into an immunity. Additionally, you could run Shadow Claw for lower base power but a higher critical hit rate without having to terastallize or you could run Tera Blast for more consistent higher damage (not counting Shadow Claw's higher critical damage). Loaded Dice is specifically for Icicle Spear, while Dragon Dance beefs up your power and speed to spooky levels. Here are some damage calculations to show what I mean. Kyurem has not been fully explored yet, there's so much more that can be done with him.

252+ Atk Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 276-326 (114.5 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Kyurem Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 176-208 (55.8 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 264-312 (83.8 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 392-464 (124.4 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Gholdengo: 296-350 (78.3 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 294-348 (92.4 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 444-524 (112.6 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For your last slot, Kyurem has more options still; Rock Slide pairs nicely with Ghost and Ice STAB while having a neat flinch chance, Dual Wingbeat has the potential to pressure Zamazenta throughout a match (thanks to Tera Ghost) and annoy Substitute users similar to Icicle Crash. Freeze-Dry is an option to consider with a Hasty nature and 4 in SpA instead. Iron Head helps cleave through Clefable and also has a flinch chance. This set is a specialized technical attacker variant that can turn poor matchups on their heads and, in the case of Gholdengo, have a chance to take it right out during the early game with +1 and a Tera.

Choice Specs Shadow Ball
:kyurem:
​
There's not much in comparison to say about this set; we generally all know how Choice Specs Kyurem works - it's been meticulously documented. But that's why I also think it hasn't been explored fully yet. There are still some corners to crease out before we have a full understanding of this Pokemon's capabilities. Kyurem really is incredible. Anyway here are some damage calculations just to demonstrate the sheer ferocity of Shadow Ball and how it handles multiple Gholdengo sets with ease along with blowing through some usually problematic Pokemon.

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Deoxys-Speed: 318-376 (131.9 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 282-334 (89.5 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 422-500 (133.9 - 158.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 422-500 (111.6 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 256-302 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 384-452 (120.7 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 222-264 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
ianlazerbeem said:
If you hate facing fat teams you should be a stalwart DNB on Gliscor. Both SD and Toxic Gliscor are able to guarantee progress vs fat teams via Toxic putting them on a timer, or stacking hazards and knocking off their boots, or in SD's case out walling them and stacking boosts. Mola teams and bootspam teams both will become insufferable without Gliscor in the meta, and Gliscor's presence actually keeps the pace of the meta UP by completely shitting on passive teams and keeping the opponent playing proactively if they want to win. "It's really versatile, it gatekeeps bad teams, and I get impatient when people click protect" is not and never has been a good reason to ban something, and 1LDK is not a reliable source on whether a so-called "stall mon" should be banned
Click to expand...
So this mola hate is really a thing? Mola is shaking up the metagame?

Gliscor is cancer. It can kick a giant rock. Get the thing OUT.

Gliscor makes progresss against damn near everything, while only a few privileged mons can do enough damage back.
 
Morkal said:
Kyurem - Ghost Tera
"Shadow Kyurem"
:kyurem:
View attachment 684891
View attachment 684883
Kyurem @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Icicle Spear
- Shadow Claw
- Rock Slide / Dual Wingbeat / Freeze-Dry* (Use Hasty Nature) / Iron Head

or
View attachment 684883
Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Earth Power / Freeze-Dry

Dragon Dance Shadow Claw
:kyurem:
Specialized Technical Physical Attacker
​

Shadow Kyurem is quite honestly terrifying; this powerful Kyurem set does disgusting things to unprepared Deoxys-Speed, Gholdengo, Hatterene, Slowking-Galar; having a physical nuclear option further distinguishes Kyurem's incredible set variety. Tera Ghost is a phenomenal Tera-type for Kyurem as it can bait Fighting-type moves, turning its weakness into an immunity. Additionally, you could run Shadow Claw for lower base power but a higher critical hit rate without having to terastallize or you could run Tera Blast for more consistent higher damage (not counting Shadow Claw's higher critical damage). Loaded Dice is specifically for Icicle Spear, while Dragon Dance beefs up your power and speed to spooky levels. Here are some damage calculations to show what I mean. Kyurem has not been fully explored yet, there's so much more that can be done with him.

252+ Atk Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 276-326 (114.5 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Kyurem Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 176-208 (55.8 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 264-312 (83.8 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 392-464 (124.4 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Gholdengo: 296-350 (78.3 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 294-348 (92.4 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 444-524 (112.6 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For your last slot, Kyurem has more options still; Rock Slide pairs nicely with Ghost and Ice STAB while having a neat flinch chance, Dual Wingbeat has the potential to pressure Zamazenta throughout a match (thanks to Tera Ghost) and annoy Substitute users similar to Icicle Crash. Freeze-Dry is an option to consider with a Hasty nature and 4 in SpA instead. Iron Head helps cleave through Clefable and also has a flinch chance. This set is a specialized technical attacker variant that can turn poor matchups on their heads and, in the case of Gholdengo, have a chance to take it right out during the early game with +1 and a Tera.

Choice Specs Shadow Ball
:kyurem:
​
There's not much in comparison to say about this set; we generally all know how Choice Specs Kyurem works - it's been meticulously documented. But that's why I also think it hasn't been explored fully yet. There are still some corners to crease out before we have a full understanding of this Pokemon's capabilities. Kyurem really is incredible. Anyway here are some damage calculations just to demonstrate the sheer ferocity of Shadow Ball and how it handles multiple Gholdengo sets with ease along with blowing through some usually problematic Pokemon.

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Deoxys-Speed: 318-376 (131.9 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 282-334 (89.5 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 422-500 (133.9 - 158.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 422-500 (111.6 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 256-302 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 384-452 (120.7 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 222-264 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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A) I'm 100% trying out this weird Ghostly Specs Kyurem. Looks pretty heat.

B) Any replays with these by any chance?
 
RaikouLover said:
So this mola hate is really a thing? Mola is shaking up the metagame?

Gliscor is cancer. It can kick a giant rock. Get the thing OUT.

Gliscor makes progresss against damn near everything, while only a few privileged mons can do enough damage back.
Click to expand...
Arguably, only Kyurem and Wogerpon can make progress against every Gliscor set. Everything else can be beaten in some way, and Gliscor is now better than ever at beating its checks. Hex users not only have to fear Knock Off but can also be caught off guard by Tera Normal. I’d go as far as to even say that aside from Kyurem and Wogerpon, Gliscor invalidates any Pokemon that doesn’t have a setup move, because it can just brainlessly Protect over and over again, becoming unkillable through Tera and being impossible to OKO unboosted without an Ice attack pre-Tera.

Mola hate has always been a thing, always will be a thing, and always should be a thing. It validates all of the most asinine playstyles from SubTect Kyurem to ZapKingLu and from ClodGanacl to any variant of stall. Banning Alomomola would be the single most positive tiering action taken this generation, as it would make every threat in the tier easier to manage by virtue of gutting their health recovery. Kingambit, Raging Neck, and Zamazenta can no longer heal back to full for free, you can’t have your special attackers nuked by a surprise Mirror Coat anymore to enable a sweeper, fatmons get easier to chip and break, offensive mons are easier to pressure, boots spammers have to actually worry about hazard chip, the list goes on.
 
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Christ, some people really don't like this meta. I've got my fair share of things i don't like about it, and it's probably my least favorite current gen i've been through (even if i've only really played comp from SM onwards). But gliscor is honestly something I could care less about. I'd lean towards ban just because poison heal pisses me off but Gliscor isn't any more overbearing or banworthy than, like, most of the current metagame. Sure, gliscor hits decently hard and doesn't die, but there's plenty of other bullshit running around like Zama or Waterpon or Kingambit (or apparently fucking Dragonite according to some of you weirdos) that we've gaslit ourselves into thinking aren't banworthy because they all barely check each other. Honestly that's sound enough reasoning in a metagame that's barely more playable than AG and simultaneously isn't fucked enough to consider drastic tiering action. Realistically this meta has a ton of problem children and it's just that currently gliscor is the second biggest (kyurem is still #1 most banworthy in my eyes but that's not gonna be for a while).

side tangent/backhanded comment but if you think mola teams are hard to fight you need to start playing the game and stop pressing super effective moves into whatever is in front of you because that stops working at like 1200
 
AerionT said:
Well, it is inevitable to compare a pokemon's power level to other's and if you perceive that there are several other pokemons that are stronger (and have not been banned or are not going to be tested) than the one you are evaluating, what conclusion can you extract if not that that is the power level that the community has found acceptable and therefore everything equal or below it must stay?
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What is this trying to say? Just because I think Kyurem or Ogerpon-W are more worthy of removal (hypothetical to make the point moreso) doesn't mean I can't ALSO think Gliscor is a bad presence for the Meta and ought to go. The problem then becomes the argument that if the current suspect isn't what a poster thinks needs to go first, the conversation always gets derailed talking about those other subjects: Kingambit vs Tera in its original Suspect is a prime example, but you also see Gambit, Raging Bolt, Zamazenta, and Kyurem frequently come up as "these things are busted so clearly X is acceptable because we didn't test them" or "we should have tested these first." I remember a repeated pattern of such in the two Gouging Fire Suspects being a point I criticized in argumentation frequently.

An equally valid conclusion is "this mon is not THE problem, but it is A problem and worth addressing" just as easily as "everything below this thing we didn't test/ban is an acceptable standard for me as a voter."
 
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