Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[sire clod]

Waterpon and Alomomola more than balance each other out, please end this silly discussion now before I lose more IQ points

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

(like scarf bolt?

scl btw

 

[Finchinator]

View attachment 685412
scl btw

Crying has a much bigger brain than me and can make Choice Scarf work on any Pokemon tbf

 

[Cyber-DJ]

I think people are exaggerating how healthy Great Tusk is for the metagame. After only a single Rapid Spin it has the potential to become unstoppable due to its natural bulk that allows it to survive even SE special attacks in tandem with its monstrous attack stat that often means setup isn't even required (unless you count Rapid Spin as setup). It has the coverage options to easily beat ALL spinblockers (yes even FRAUDcha) and is a pain in the ass to stop from spinning as after spinblocking you basically have only a single turn before the enemy clicks a much stronger attack. In order to reliably beat it you need a robust physical wall, usually a Rooster, or something that outspeeds even after a boost and can hit it SE, or SE priority (which is really only Aqua Jet because nobody uses Weavile anymore), OR you just hit it hard, accept that a mon will die, and THEN nuke it with priority, and of course, you can also just have the right Tera. None of that is particularly hard to do or to fit on a team, but if you don't have at least one of those things at the ready when the elephant is about to spin or has already spun, it's basically guaranteed that Tusk is going to flatten what remains of your team. I don't think it should be banned, but I do think that people need to stop hailing it as some paragon of a healthy metagame. All that being said, I'd still take dealing with the Proboscidean Entity over Fenris Wolf (thanks Raikou Fan) any day of the week.

Next you're gonna say we should put Landorus-Therian on the radar because it has nearly the same attack stat as Groudon amd is too consistent at setting Stealth Rocks?

 

[UltraSword]

I think people are exaggerating how healthy Great Tusk is for the metagame. After only a single Rapid Spin it has the potential to become unstoppable due to its natural bulk that allows it to survive even SE special attacks in tandem with its monstrous attack stat that often means setup isn't even required (unless you count Rapid Spin as setup). It has the coverage options to easily beat ALL spinblockers (yes even FRAUDcha) and is a pain in the ass to stop from spinning as after spinblocking you basically have only a single turn before the enemy clicks a much stronger attack. In order to reliably beat it you need a robust physical wall, usually a Rooster, or something that outspeeds even after a boost and can hit it SE, or SE priority (which is really only Aqua Jet because nobody uses Weavile anymore), OR you just hit it hard, accept that a mon will die, and THEN nuke it with priority, and of course, you can also just have the right Tera. None of that is particularly hard to do or to fit on a team, but if you don't have at least one of those things at the ready when the elephant is about to spin or has already spun, it's basically guaranteed that Tusk is going to flatten what remains of your team. I don't think it should be banned, but I do think that people need to stop hailing it as some paragon of a healthy metagame. All that being said, I'd still take dealing with the Proboscidean Entity over Fenris Wolf (thanks Raikou Fan) any day of the week.

I can't lie now this is starting to piss me off. Great Tusk may be an amazing Pokémon but not only do pokemon like sinistcha and ogerpon w exist to beat the crap out of it but great Tusk isn't even that strong even with proto boost. It is basically the gold standard of a utility pokemon that can provide offensive support. It is nowhere near unhealthy banworthy and it even helps the metagame. It is number 1 in usage for a reason. I could maybe believe that alomomola is a little unhealthy but this is completely insane.

 

[RainebowValiant]

I can't lie now this is starting to piss me off. Great Tusk may be an amazing Pokémon but not only do pokemon like sinistcha and ogerpon w exist to beat the crap out of it but great Tusk isn't even that strong even with proto boost. It is basically the gold standard of a utility pokemon that can provide offensive support. It is nowhere near unhealthy banworthy and it even helps the metagame. It is number 1 in usage for a reason. I could maybe believe that alomomola is a little unhealthy but this is completely insane.

Seraphyde when anything is even remotely defensive and bulky: /lh

Tusk is completely fine, literally the healthiest top tier in an OU metagame since like. Uhhh. Ttar in gen 3 probably? I genuinely can't name a single top 3 mon that's as healthy as tusk because it's so rare for a Pokémon to be bulky but not stally, offensive but rarely sweeping, and having great support options while not being broken in a supporting role.

 

[RainebowValiant]

I think it would be worth noting that gen 9 has more Pokémon capable of using multiple different Choice items effectively.

This is my point lmao, gen 9 has more Pokémon capable of using choice items.

Edit: whoops I made this a separate post, pretend it's the same one. Sorry!

 

[pika pal]

At what point do we just stop engaging with these posts for pages at a time when a lot of the responses will likely take the same angle, whether the post is sincere-and-misinformed or ragebait (I usually assume the former but that is a significantly more exhausting angle)?

Though since it was mentioned briefly, I'd be curious about something: Has anyone considered Substitute Sinistcha? I know its moveslots are a bit tight, but with the multitude of Pokemon it can sit on easily like Tusk, Ogerpon-W, Gliscor (in terms of damage), and Zamazenta, getting a Sub up gives it room to be annoying to potential Switch-ins (Burn/Strength Sap on stuff like Kingambit) or even fight things with a lot less caution/timer (Garg can't break a Sub so no fear of Salt Cure, Utility Gliscor can't Toxic it). The tricky part is obviously where to fit it since STABs and Strength Sap are hard to drop, which means it's competing with Calm Mind most immediately unless you potentially compromise its usual match-ups.

 

[AerionT]

The real election is in two weeks when we decide what to do with Gliscor, and since I personally can't make it work for myself, I suggest you ban it.

 

[RainebowValiant]

At what point do we just stop engaging with these posts for pages at a time when a lot of the responses will likely take the same angle, whether the post is sincere-and-misinformed or ragebait (I usually assume the former but that is a significantly more exhausting angle)?

Though since it was mentioned briefly, I'd be curious about something: Has anyone considered Substitute Sinistcha? I know its moveslots are a bit tight, but with the multitude of Pokemon it can sit on easily like Tusk, Ogerpon-W, Gliscor (in terms of damage), and Zamazenta, getting a Sub up gives it room to be annoying to potential Switch-ins (Burn/Strength Sap on stuff like Kingambit) or even fight things with a lot less caution/timer (Garg can't break a Sub so no fear of Salt Cure, Utility Gliscor can't Toxic it). The tricky part is obviously where to fit it since STABs and Strength Sap are hard to drop, which means it's competing with Calm Mind most immediately unless you potentially compromise its usual match-ups.

Unfortunately as long as seraphyde stays in this thread I am bound for eternity.

The issue with sub sinistcha is that a lot of things deal more than 25% to the sub and require either Calm minds (which you drop) or multiple wasted turns of strength sap to have the opponent deal under that amount. So the sub is basically just a turn you could've spent attacking the switch for the same gain of one attack.

 

[Seraphyde]

Though since it was mentioned briefly, I'd be curious about something: Has anyone considered Substitute Sinistcha? I know its moveslots are a bit tight, but with the multitude of Pokemon it can sit on easily like Tusk, Ogerpon-W, Gliscor (in terms of damage), and Zamazenta, getting a Sub up gives it room to be annoying to potential Switch-ins (Burn/Strength Sap on stuff like Kingambit) or even fight things with a lot less caution/timer (Garg can't break a Sub so no fear of Salt Cure, Utility Gliscor can't Toxic it). The tricky part is obviously where to fit it since STABs and Strength Sap are hard to drop, which means it's competing with Calm Mind most immediately unless you potentially compromise its usual match-ups.

Gets shat on by Dragapult, if it doesn’t KO then you can easily paralyze to pave the way for para fishing by something stronger in order to break the sub. Due to its low speed, setup is also difficult, if your enemy’s breaker is in position, you can’t click sub until it’s dead or force out. And if you get statused BEFORE subbing, then that’s just cruel. Special nukes like GOATrai and MB Glim (or Life Orb Glim) also enjoy pissing in the matcha bowl.

The issue with sub sinistcha is that a lot of things deal more than 25% to the sub and require either Calm minds (which you drop) or multiple wasted turns of strength sap to have the opponent deal under that amount. So the sub is basically just a turn you could've spent attacking the switch for the same gain of one attack.

And that. Also that.

 

[Seraphyde]

Someone give me the EV spread of 658Greninja’s U-Turn Gliscor set. I need it for something

 

[arnimacarni]

I think people are exaggerating how healthy Great Tusk is for the metagame. After only a single Rapid Spin it has the potential to become unstoppable due to its natural bulk that allows it to survive even SE special attacks in tandem with its monstrous attack stat that often means setup isn't even required (unless you count Rapid Spin as setup). It has the coverage options to easily beat ALL spinblockers (yes even FRAUDcha) and is a pain in the ass to stop from spinning as after spinblocking you basically have only a single turn before the enemy clicks a much stronger attack. In order to reliably beat it you need a robust physical wall, usually a Rooster, or something that outspeeds even after a boost and can hit it SE, or SE priority (which is really only Aqua Jet because nobody uses Weavile anymore), OR you just hit it hard, accept that a mon will die, and THEN nuke it with priority, and of course, you can also just have the right Tera. None of that is particularly hard to do or to fit on a team, but if you don't have at least one of those things at the ready when the elephant is about to spin or has already spun, it's basically guaranteed that Tusk is going to flatten what remains of your team. I don't think it should be banned, but I do think that people need to stop hailing it as some paragon of a healthy metagame. All that being said, I'd still take dealing with the Proboscidean Entity over Fenris Wolf (thanks Raikou Fan) any day of the week.

i refuse to believe you're a real person

 

[Delibird Heart]

while y'all hating i'm having fun with dudunsparce.

@ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 228 HP / 252 SpA / 28 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Glare
- Boomburst
- Shadow Ball
- Roost

This lil guy is just bulky enough to live about any hit and glare or boomburst back whatever is sitting in front. It can be deceptively annoying to remove for teams who lack hard counters and is pretty effective at trading with or crippling breakers. It also plays well into the omnipresent gking, which can't sit on it because of serene grace shadow ball's heightened drop chance. I genuinely think this mon is quite underexplored and I've been having decent success with it (granted, not at super top elo, I don't really ladder seriously lately) around the 1700s range with a pretty unique team to boot. Here are some replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2236020576-n7ojk0yafwptwssrxl6fp8900grfsfjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2238616370-75qqvqh5uv48l3er6bxd3d3294dm4zopw

I could send more but I'm not making a vr nom here, just saying this guy deserves more recognition. It has really good bulk and a serviceable movepool, and is probably the most viable mon with access to glare rn (serp sucks, don't @ me).

 

[RainebowValiant]

while y'all hating i'm having fun with dudunsparce.

View attachment 685451 @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 228 HP / 252 SpA / 28 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Glare
- Boomburst
- Shadow Ball
- Roost

This lil guy is just bulky enough to live about any hit and glare or boomburst back whatever is sitting in front. It can be deceptively annoying to remove for teams who lack hard counters and is pretty effective at trading with or crippling breakers. It also plays well into the omnipresent gking, which can't sit on it because of serene grace shadow ball's heightened drop chance. I genuinely think this mon is quite underexplored and I've been having decent success with it (granted, not at super top elo, I don't really ladder seriously lately) around the 1700s range with a pretty unique team to boot. Here are some replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2236020576-n7ojk0yafwptwssrxl6fp8900grfsfjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2238616370-75qqvqh5uv48l3er6bxd3d3294dm4zopw

I could send more but I'm not making a vr nom here, just saying this guy deserves more recognition. It has really good bulk and a serviceable movepool, and is probably the most viable mon with access to glare rn (serp sucks, don't @ me).

Dudunsparce is NOT better than serp. Serp is solid on webs, it's a disruption mon, staple on para spam. Say dudunsparce is good all you want (perhaps it has some vague uses!) but serp is MUCH better

 

[Peum]

while y'all hating i'm having fun with dudunsparce.

View attachment 685451 @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 228 HP / 252 SpA / 28 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Glare
- Boomburst
- Shadow Ball
- Roost

This lil guy is just bulky enough to live about any hit and glare or boomburst back whatever is sitting in front. It can be deceptively annoying to remove for teams who lack hard counters and is pretty effective at trading with or crippling breakers. It also plays well into the omnipresent gking, which can't sit on it because of serene grace shadow ball's heightened drop chance. I genuinely think this mon is quite underexplored and I've been having decent success with it (granted, not at super top elo, I don't really ladder seriously lately) around the 1700s range with a pretty unique team to boot. Here are some replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2236020576-n7ojk0yafwptwssrxl6fp8900grfsfjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2238616370-75qqvqh5uv48l3er6bxd3d3294dm4zopw

I could send more but I'm not making a vr nom here, just saying this guy deserves more recognition. It has really good bulk and a serviceable movepool, and is probably the most viable mon with access to glare rn (serp sucks, don't @ me).

as the number 1 dudunsparce fan (brought it and won to uuwc, uult playoffs and won like 30 bucks with it) change serene to rattled and glare to calm mind hope this helps

 

[EpicGuy321]

I have a 6th suggestion.

252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 812-956 (152 - 179%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This tells you all you need to know.

How about another suggestion?

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 638-752 (119.4 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Fair critiscm. Then let's lower the power level for discussion sake:

252+ SpA Hydrapple Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 474-558 (88.7 - 104.4%) -- damage roll
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 548-648 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 594-698 (111.2 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 390-458 (73 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 571-673 (106.9 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 494-585 (92.5 - 109.5%) -- damage roll

now calc these with the superior 0 HP/252 Spdef Mola. For the Kyu and Bolt, AV doesn’t get OHKOed.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

now calc these with the superior 0 HP/252 Spdef Mola. For the Kyu and Bolt, AV doesn’t get OHKOed.

AV makes you mediocre at best into hazard stack and even teams just getting rocks up digs into your longevity in a major way.

 

[June Heat]

Very low engagement for the Gliscor suspect. Will it pick up during the weekend, or is this a sign that the changes aren’t working? Also could easily be the case that people are burnt on Gen9 OU.

 

[Avira]

Very low engagement for the Gliscor suspect. Will it pick up during the weekend, or is this a sign that the changes aren’t working? Also could easily be the case that people are burnt on Gen9 OU.

I believe it's moreso the case that people were burned out fretting over the US election. The suspect should have come next week instead as the timing is quite terrible.

 

[Finchinator]

Very low engagement for the Gliscor suspect. Will it pick up during the weekend, or is this a sign that the changes aren’t working? Also could easily be the case that people are burnt on Gen9 OU.

We actually have a good amount of peopl with reqs already relative to norms -- I think low discussion due to people adjusting to the new threads overlapping with the US election and Gliscor not evoking as dramatic a response as splashy offensive Pokemon.

 

[RainebowValiant]

We actually have a good amount of peopl with reqs already relative to norms -- I think low discussion due to people adjusting to the new threads overlapping with the US election and Gliscor not evoking as dramatic a response as splashy offensive Pokemon.

Which politician is Gliscor? He's most like RFK imo. Also yeah it's 100% the election.

AV makes you mediocre at best into hazard stack and even teams just getting rocks up digs into your longevity in a major way.

Do not diss AV mola, that set is insane. Owns Gholdengo and even Energy Ball Iron Moth wayyy more than you think.

 

[EpicGuy321]

Which politician is Gliscor? He's most like RFK imo. Also yeah it's 100% the election.


Do not diss AV mola, that set is insane. Owns Gholdengo and even Energy Ball Iron Moth wayyy more than you think.

+1 crit energy ball from moth doesn’t ohko, and neither does +6 timid gholdengo shadow ball.

 

[Bakugames]

Im going to tattle to the mods if you guys actually spend more than 2 posts comparing pokemon to ww2 era politicians

 

[RainWaiv]

Working on a rain team and right now it loses pretty hard to waterpon. Any ideas? I'd like something offensive outside of gambit/dnite that can actually take a hit from him.

here's the paste

do not judge the quick claw kingambit. he stays. all other contribs to the team are fair game tho.