Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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1LDK

The Stand
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:sv/meowscarada: :sv/quaquaval: :sv/skeledirge:

I find it really funny how this starter trio ended up being. I think everyone was expecting Meowscarada to absolutely be the best out of the bunch, with it's awesome speed, Flower Trick, access to Spikes, T-Spikes, Knock Off, U-turn and, of course, Protean. Seemed like such the recipe for being broken!

And yet, it's actually the LEAST viable out of the 3 starters!

Funny how that works out sometimes.
Can you guys sell me on quaquaval? it gets walled by pex, corvy, dondozo, tera water/fairy garganacl, water absorb clodsire, ape, gholdengo and despite having 10000 boosting moves i have never been swept by 1, and like, "bro rain set up sweeper" unironcially, i think tatsugiri has the bigger niche for better stab, but thats just me, i want to be sold on the duck (is ugly as hell btw)
 

Specs

Getting in your own way
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Can you guys sell me on quaquaval? it gets walled by pex, corvy, dondozo, tera water/fairy garganacl, water absorb clodsire, ape, gholdengo and despite having 10000 boosting moves i have never been swept by 1, and like, "bro rain set up sweeper" unironcially, i think tatsugiri has the bigger niche for better stab, but thats just me, i want to be sold on the duck (is ugly as hell btw)
Taunt deals with a lot of what you just mentioned, so taunt bulk up sets are mainly the scary ones. Its also pretty bulky and has access to recovery so it beats corv and gholdengo (if gholdengo is harding in)

Not a top tier mon by any means but solid for sure and a threat you have to keep in kind especially when looking at what your balance cores consist of
 
Can you guys sell me on quaquaval? it gets walled by pex, corvy, dondozo, tera water/fairy garganacl, water absorb clodsire, ape, gholdengo and despite having 10000 boosting moves i have never been swept by 1, and like, "bro rain set up sweeper" unironcially, i think tatsugiri has the bigger niche for better stab, but thats just me, i want to be sold on the duck (is ugly as hell btw)
For me it is like Espharta, it is op if you give like 5 free turns, however, which set up mon isn't like that?
Meow also feels a bit underwhelming, band flower trick sounds nice in theory, but being locked into a grass move isn't the best with Dragonite and Corviknight around. Breloom has been worked way better for me as an offensive grass type.
 
The Shed Tail debate feels a lot like past gen weather debates. I think it’s true that Cyclizar is so obviously the better user that no one’s really bothered developing anything around Orthworm so its potential probably hasn’t been fully reached, but that’s just not going to happen until Cyclizar is gone and people start playing around with it more. I don’t think most people’s gut instinct would’ve told them it was worth running a NFE just to set weather, but (IIRC) it turned out that was the case once the more viable setters were banned and the meta was pushed to try out other options more thoroughly.

My instinct is that Orthworm won’t prove to be broken even with Cyclizar gone, but I think starting by banning Czar is the prudent approach because it solves the immediate problem and allows the theory to be tested that Czar was the problem and not Shed Tail. If Shed Tail goes first, the only theory we can test is if Czar and Orthworm have any viability left in their current tiers without it, and I have a feeling that test is going to go much worse.
 
:sv/meowscarada: :sv/quaquaval: :sv/skeledirge:

I find it really funny how this starter trio ended up being. I think everyone was expecting Meowscarada to absolutely be the best out of the bunch, with it's awesome speed, Flower Trick, access to Spikes, T-Spikes, Knock Off, U-turn and, of course, Protean. Seemed like such the recipe for being broken!

And yet, it's actually the LEAST viable out of the 3 starters!

Funny how that works out sometimes.
Thing is though is that Meowscarada would more than likely be the best of the 3 starters if Protean wasn’t nerfed, which is what most people didn’t realize early on. Honestly Protean nerf is so bad that one might consider using Overgrowth over Protean. You get to at least use your STABs after 1 turn being out and not screw yourself with status moves.
 

RoiDadadou

Nothing less... from a king.
is a Tiering Contributor
Niiiice !
Called all of them.
I'm personally in favor of QB on Cycli, Chi-Yu and Pao. I definitely think Ape should bea suspect tho, feels like it.
Garga, Ghol will have to wait, and Nite + Espa should be fine after we delete the motocycle.
 

Finchinator

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I personally intend to vote ban on Chi-Yu, Annihilape, and Cyclizar.

:Chi-Yu: offers an offensive premium that is fat past acceptable or containable levels in OU. It's pool of counterplay is far too limited and it warps the tier because of this (either in-game due to not being sufficiently ready or in-builder due to being limited in what you can use for it too much).

:Annihilape: is a more interesting case, but Taunt+BU variants cross the line for me. You can force walls into attacking you or walking a very thin tight-rope to pivot in a faster threat without allowing too many free chances pretty much, making the balance/bulky match-up absolutely dire. Yes, new things like RH Chomp + Salt Cure Tera-Garganacl cores can help mitigate it a bit, but the pool of consistent answers is very limited and generally you need half your team + good timing to minimize it. Offensive teams contain it better, but even they have to watch out for timely Tera letting it escape trouble and do even more damage with Rage Fist. I find very few games where Annihilape struggles and very many games where it forces opponents into an awkward spot, threatening to sweep or claim multiple kills (or just generally large amounts of progress).

:Cyclizar: I find to be the catalyst of a lot of worrisome strategies, abusing any passivity with a virtually unchecked free-turn for some of our premier offensive breakers and set-up sweepers. I think this one is a tougher case and I understand why it got a lot, but not quite enough, votes the last few times. I remain mostly firm in my stance just because it punishes any free turns or defensive play way too much for the metagame to remain balanced with the tools it can pass to. I can expand on this one more later as it deserves the most examination of the three, but definitely a problem in my eyes.

Others I can see cases for and I am not 100% voting no ban on yet, but I am leaning that way and can post more on later perhaps.
 
Pao deserves way more of a quickban than all you guys give him credits for.
Yeah, I agree. Arguably might be even scarier than Chi-Yu due to its high speed. It can run an Adamant Nature to be slightly strong than Chi-Yu and still outspeed a majority of the tier (though Adamant is harder to justify now as it is still outsped by Cinderace by one point). That being said, Rocky Helmet can make it somewhat easier to play around, but having to run Rocky Helmet on multiple Pokemon is not neccisarily a good thing as Mega Kangaskhan has taught us.
 

RoiDadadou

Nothing less... from a king.
is a Tiering Contributor
I personally intend to vote ban on Chi-Yu, Annihilape, and Cyclizar.

:Chi-Yu: offers an offensive premium that is fat past acceptable or containable levels in OU. It's pool of counterplay is far too limited and it warps the tier because of this (either in-game due to not being sufficiently ready or in-builder due to being limited in what you can use for it too much).

:Annihilape: is a more interesting case, but Taunt+BU variants cross the line for me. You can force walls into attacking you or walking a very thin tight-rope to pivot in a faster threat without allowing too many free chances pretty much, making the balance/bulky match-up absolutely dire. Yes, new things like RH Chomp + Salt Cure Tera-Garganacl cores can help mitigate it a bit, but the pool of consistent answers is very limited and generally you need half your team + good timing to minimize it. Offensive teams contain it better, but even they have to watch out for timely Tera letting it escape trouble and do even more damage with Rage Fist. I find very few games where Annihilape struggles and very many games where it forces opponents into an awkward spot, threatening to sweep or claim multiple kills (or just generally large amounts of progress).

:Cyclizar: I find to be the catalyst of a lot of worrisome strategies, abusing any passivity with a virtually unchecked free-turn for some of our premier offensive breakers and set-up sweepers. I think this one is a tougher case and I understand why it got a lot, but not quite enough, votes the last few times. I remain mostly firm in my stance just because it punishes any free turns or defensive play way too much for the metagame to remain balanced with the tools it can pass to. I can expand on this one more later as it deserves the most examination of the three, but definitely a problem in my eyes.

Others I can see cases for and I am not 100% voting no ban on yet, but I am leaning that way and can post more on later perhaps.
I'd be curious to have your opinion on Pao, whenever you feel like writing about it. The ban/suspect of Ape will make it even better, and we could argue that the fish getting banned will also be beneficial to Pao, as well as the drop of usage for Sun, following it.

For me, the panther is a big no. People are clearly underestimating what this thing does in-game, rather than on paper, and I feel like CB Tera Ice Pao is just too much for the current metagame. Maybe later down the line, with HOME/DLCs, it will be okay. But rn, I feel like it's definitely overwhelming.
 

RoiDadadou

Nothing less... from a king.
is a Tiering Contributor
Yeah, I agree. Arguably might be even scarier than Chi-Yu due to its high speed. It can run an Adamant Nature to be slightly strong than Chi-Yu and still outspeed a majority of the tier (though Adamant is harder to justify now as it is still outsped by Cinderace by one point). That being said, Rocky Helmet can make it somewhat easier to play around, but having to run Rocky Helmet on multiple Pokemon is not neccisarily a good thing as Mega Kangaskhan has taught us.
This exactly.
 

Finchinator

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I'd be curious to have your opinion on Pao, whenever you feel like writting about it.
I am willing to see the case for it b/c the pool of counterplay is limited, but I find band to be the main way to limit it and it can only get in safely very sporadically. Boots sets are more accessible, but also easier to contain defensively. This trade-off makes it less glaringly broken than Chi-Yu or even Annihilape for me, but it is on the radar for a reason -- it's really awesome and, in it's case, potentially broken. Feels more like a suspect than QB to me, but obviously this can change in either direction.
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
No maushold I was baited mudkipnerd 2024 /s

To not make this a one liner joke post, I’m pretty sure Chi Yu is gonna finally leave the tier, but it is the only one I am certain is quickban material. I think Cyclizar and Annihilape have strong arguments for a quickban, in particular Cyclizar, but neither are as oppressive as the stupid fish. I think Annihilape, Espathra, and Dragonite all also disproportionately benefit from Cyclizar as a partner. Having a devastating set up sweeper get the single strongest pivot into makes them so much scarier. As a result, I’d prefer Ape or Espathra get tested after a Cyclizar ban since it exasperates the problem with them imo. Of course of Ape got banned I wouldn’t be opposed, but I think Chi Yu and Cyclizar are the best bans rn. Ape is really dumb though. Taunt Bulk Up is super constraining to building.

Everything else I’d prefer to keep in the meta for now. Espathra and Dragonite would lose amazing teammates that really constrain the options to deal with them if we lost Cyclizar, Ape, and Chi Yu. I personally think a Pokémon as dug into our meta as Gholdengo would be a better candidate for a suspect test than a quick ban. This is even moreso imo due to how it’s dumb with its effect on the hazard game. I also think Chien Pao while good is slightly overhyped and is fine.

I’m just happy Cyclizar is potentially gonna be banned because it is one of the most toxic mons on builder. It genuinely makes pretty much every problem Mon on the radar a nightmare to deal with in practice too.
 

awyp

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I personally intend to vote ban on Chi-Yu, Annihilape, and Cyclizar.

:Chi-Yu: offers an offensive premium that is fat past acceptable or containable levels in OU. It's pool of counterplay is far too limited and it warps the tier because of this (either in-game due to not being sufficiently ready or in-builder due to being limited in what you can use for it too much).

:Annihilape: is a more interesting case, but Taunt+BU variants cross the line for me. You can force walls into attacking you or walking a very thin tight-rope to pivot in a faster threat without allowing too many free chances pretty much, making the balance/bulky match-up absolutely dire. Yes, new things like RH Chomp + Salt Cure Tera-Garganacl cores can help mitigate it a bit, but the pool of consistent answers is very limited and generally you need half your team + good timing to minimize it. Offensive teams contain it better, but even they have to watch out for timely Tera letting it escape trouble and do even more damage with Rage Fist. I find very few games where Annihilape struggles and very many games where it forces opponents into an awkward spot, threatening to sweep or claim multiple kills (or just generally large amounts of progress).

:Cyclizar: I find to be the catalyst of a lot of worrisome strategies, abusing any passivity with a virtually unchecked free-turn for some of our premier offensive breakers and set-up sweepers. I think this one is a tougher case and I understand why it got a lot, but not quite enough, votes the last few times. I remain mostly firm in my stance just because it punishes any free turns or defensive play way too much for the metagame to remain balanced with the tools it can pass to. I can expand on this one more later as it deserves the most examination of the three, but definitely a problem in my eyes.

Others I can see cases for and I am not 100% voting no ban on yet, but I am leaning that way and can post more on later perhaps.
Yeah this is the exact route I would go too, in my earlier post I said the same thing and I said maybe on Chien Pao just because I personally don't think it's worthy of a quickban. Hopefully this is the end result, but thank you Finch for getting Radar stuff out already.
 
I am willing to see the case for it b/c the pool of counterplay is limited, but I find band to be the main way to limit it and it can only get in safely very sporadically. Boots sets are more accessible, but also easier to contain defensively. This trade-off makes it less glaringly broken than Chi-Yu or even Annihilape for me, but it is on the radar for a reason -- it's really awesome and, in it's case, potentially broken. Feels more like a suspect than QB to me, but obviously this can change in either direction.
Boots Chien-Pao can be a pain if it gets a Swords Dance up in the mid-late game and Band is pretty hard to wall from the get-go. It has rather deceptive bulk as it can take neutral hits, even strong ones like a +1 Jolly Tera-Normal Dragonite's Extreme Speed (80 - 94.6%), which is impressive for something that looks like a glass cannon. It does have answers like Dondozo and Corviknight, but even those can be overwhelmed, especially if they invest in special defense to answer other threats. It does have more niche answers such as Tauros-Fire, but those are harder to fit on teams. I think it's on the line of being too strong, but I think more time is needed for it compared to its fellow offensive monster of Ruin, Chi-Yu.
 
Annihilape banned? No problem.
View attachment 481209
I hope Cyclizar gets banned, and I advocate for it being suspected rather than Shed Tail. I think Orthworm being slow and not having Regenerator forces much more mindful use of Shed Tail, which makes it a lot more manageable than Cyclizar.
I am rather curious to see if Primeape would rise up if Annihilape were to be banned. Not sure how good it is as a substitute, but it sure would be interesting.
 

Finchinator

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Just want to say that I find Iron Valliant way more oppressive than...Espathra ?
Can you elaborate? Nobody on the council had it on their personal radar quite yet. Not that there isn’t potential for the future, but rn it’s more “very good” than broken to me. Espathra isn’t quite broken to me either, but I’m content with us voting on it anyway.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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Annihilape banned? No problem.
View attachment 481209
I hope Cyclizar gets banned, and I advocate for it being suspected rather than Shed Tail. I think Orthworm being slow and not having Regenerator forces much more mindful use of Shed Tail, which makes it a lot more manageable than Cyclizar.
Lets do some quick analysis, first you got Primeape just a Fighting type while Annihilape is Ghost / Fighting type. Cool (Could Primeape be a valid replacement?) (Short answer: It could be but probably not)

252 HP / 252 SpD each, obviously Eviolite gives more bulk but as soon as someone knocks it off, it becomes extremely subpar around 260 with 252 EVs invested (Careful nature). The big missing factor here is the HP (90 off), its no where near as much as Annihilape, but at least you do get slightly higher speed. It will be way more easier to beat than Annihilape, so yeah I don't think it will be a viable replacement if Ape leaves us.

ape.PNG
primeape.PNG
 
It seems that if you want Chi-yu to stick around, you better step up right now and give some compelling reasons because otherwise it doesn't seem like it'll last 24 more hours. It seems based on comments here, Twitter, and YouTube that it's the most universally ban-worthy Pokemon right now with others like Bicycle, Chien-pao, and Ape having the general sentiment that they're possibly or probably ban-worthy but not 100% sure. It seems no one currently has any doubt that Flaming Nemo has to go.
 
It seems that if you want Chi-yu to stick around, you better step up right now and give some compelling reasons because otherwise it doesn't seem like it'll last 24 more hours. It seems based on comments here, Twitter, and YouTube that it's the most universally ban-worthy Pokemon right now with others like Bicycle, Chien-pao, and Ape having the general sentiment that they're possibly or probably ban-worthy but not 100% sure. It seems no one currently has any doubt that Flaming Nemo has to go.
The only people who want Chi-Yu to stay are the ones who think Smogon loves stall, and the memers. So good luck finding pro-fish comments
 
It seems that if you want Chi-yu to stick around, you better step up right now and give some compelling reasons because otherwise it doesn't seem like it'll last 24 more hours. It seems based on comments here, Twitter, and YouTube that it's the most universally ban-worthy Pokemon right now with others like Bicycle, Chien-pao, and Ape having the general sentiment that they're possibly or probably ban-worthy but not 100% sure. It seems no one currently has any doubt that Flaming Nemo has to go.
Yeah no one is gonna defend this thing seriously. It needs to go.
 
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