Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Soiramio3000

Banned deucer.
I tried using swagger + mirror herb on palden tauros water.

it was a nice gimmick on paper but it just does not work on practice.
paldean tauros just isn't good.
 
As for the possibility of a quick ban, I think the council is pretty much done with those until Home/DLC drops--just because the community is in agreement on something doesn't mean it will be quick banned (see Dracovish, Pheromosa, and Spectrier all getting banned via suspect with >80% of the community vote last gen).
perhaps they’ve learned…

seriously though, they’ve said themselves that they’re handling tiering more actively this gen, and there are almost no dissenters to an immediate Chien-Pao quickban (and honestly, the only people dissenting are ones saying ‘well, I haven’t played that much, but it’s basically just Weavile 2, isn’t it?’). If the suspect actually is for Chien-Pao that’d be kinda sad since it’s such an obvious waste of time that could be spent suspecting other, more contentious mons.
 

1LDK

Trial by fury
is a Top Team Rater
when you need to Tera to 2HKO a weakness with a STAB specs 95 BP move, there is something going wrong
Remember that Vessel of Ruin is a thing
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 488-576 (94.9 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

This is the calc on a Ting Lu with no ability
 
I'm not sure if I agree that Gren will be a lower tier mon even with the protean and battle bond nerf, it still offers a varied movepool which leads to a variety of sets to run - do people really think it would fall out of/not have a use in OU?
It is what I think, its coverage is on par with Valiant's, yeah, with the protean nerf you need to get predictions right but so does your rival in the early game, getting a ko or doing a lot of damage to wall and force it to switch because your opponent got the wrong mon is nice. The meta doesn't have special walls as good as the physical walls and they suffer a lot when the mon they are trying to wall has coverage for them.
 
Anyways time to Covert Cloak sd torrent gren

for real tho, Gren is gonna make fairy garga less common and water more common, garga is gonna get more common, and so its his strong hold on the meta
Grass knot Green is very good, Tusk, Dondozo and Garg get obliterated if they don't tera to a type that resist it, while also punishes other tera water abusers.
In the other hand, scarf Gren seems underwhelming, he really needs a damage boosting item to be effective.
 
Anyways time to Covert Cloak sd torrent gren

for real tho, Gren is gonna make fairy garga less common and water more common, garga is gonna get more common, and so its his strong hold on the meta
Both fairy and water garg are going to appreciate gren, although possibly water garg more imo
 
Do people like shadow ball or hex more on Skeledirge? It seems like hex is the preferred option but I don‘t really get it. I mean, most would agree two-turn attacks in competitive Pokémon aren’t very good so to use a move that is far weaker unless you hit a wil-o-wisp first and then getting 110 BP just seems worse than firing shadow ball twice and getting 160 BP. I think the point is that you want to wil-o-wisp anyway so after you do that you just get a stronger attack but I mean you are beating Pokémon you wisp anyway, no haste needed. And it’s far worse into more neutral matchups or Pokémon switching in to it.
 

1LDK

Trial by fury
is a Top Team Rater
Both fairy and water garg are going to appreciate gren, although possibly water garg more imo
against water garganacl

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 88-104 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 129-153 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 129-153 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 72-85 (17.8 - 21%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery


against Fairy garganacl

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl: 64-76 (15.8 - 18.8%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl: 129-153 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl: 144-171 (35.6 - 42.3%) -- 90.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


Water has a better matchup against Hydro Pump and Ice Beam, Fairy trivializes Dark Pulse, pick your poison depending on your team and matchups

Do people like shadow ball or hex more on Skeledirge? It seems like hex is the preferred option but I don‘t really get it. I mean, most would agree two-turn attacks in competitive Pokémon aren’t very good so to use a move that is far weaker unless you hit a wil-o-wisp first and then getting 110 BP just seems worse than firing shadow ball twice and getting 160 BP. I think the point is that you want to wil-o-wisp anyway so after you do that you just get a stronger attack but I mean you are beating Pokémon you wisp anyway, no haste needed. And it’s far worse into more neutral matchups or Pokémon switching in to it.
The thing is, your also neutralizing physical attackers, while i do like the combination of Shadow Ball + Earth Power for luring, WoW lets you become a team suporter who aside from dishin damage, it makes everything safer
 
Do people like shadow ball or hex more on Skeledirge? It seems like hex is the preferred option but I don‘t really get it. I mean, most would agree two-turn attacks in competitive Pokémon aren’t very good so to use a move that is far weaker unless you hit a wil-o-wisp first and then getting 110 BP just seems worse than firing shadow ball twice and getting 160 BP. I think the point is that you want to wil-o-wisp anyway so after you do that you just get a stronger attack but I mean you are beating Pokémon you wisp anyway, no haste needed. And it’s far worse into more neutral matchups or Pokémon switching in to it.
I lean toward sb most of the time bc i like to use dirge aggressively on most teams, as a tank rather than wall. if a team relies on dirge as one of its main walls, or has a bunch of other status users like washtom or clod, then i might run hex instead
 

Karxrida

Eventide (art by @kzhjp)
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Do people like shadow ball or hex more on Skeledirge? It seems like hex is the preferred option but I don‘t really get it. I mean, most would agree two-turn attacks in competitive Pokémon aren’t very good so to use a move that is far weaker unless you hit a wil-o-wisp first and then getting 110 BP just seems worse than firing shadow ball twice and getting 160 BP. I think the point is that you want to wil-o-wisp anyway so after you do that you just get a stronger attack but I mean you are beating Pokémon you wisp anyway, no haste needed. And it’s far worse into more neutral matchups or Pokémon switching in to it.
I can see the arguments for Shadow Ball (especially against frailer teams or Gholdengo), but Hex is better for longer games where you're likely throwing out a ton of Wisps anyway.

I'd go with whatever suits your playstyle more.
 
The thing is, your also neutralizing physical attackers, while i do like the combination of Shadow Ball + Earth Power for luring, WoW lets you become a team suporter who aside from dishin damage, it makes everything safer
I mean I still run Wil-O-Wisp, just that I prefer shadow ball over hex on the standard set.
 
To be fair does Paldean Tauros really have an OU niece other than checking a soon-to-be-banned weasel?
It beats some other phys attackers like Scizor, Breloom and Kingambit to a degree (Meow and Cinder too but those usually just UTurn out), and Intim+Wisp lets it emergency cripple physical setuppers that cannot oneshot it in a pinch. Being one of a single-digit count of weasel switchins is the most notable part of its niche but it's rarely deadweight even when it doesn't show up.
 
against water garganacl

against Fairy garganacl
Regardless of which tera, though, Grass Knot absolutely smokes even Tera-Fairy Garg. And Great Tusk. And Dondozo, for good measure.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 422-500 (104.4 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 912-1074 (210.1 - 247.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 776-914 (153.9 - 181.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm looking forward to seeing how it slots in.
 

1LDK

Trial by fury
is a Top Team Rater
Regardless of which tera, though, Grass Knot absolutely smokes even Tera-Fairy Garg. And Great Tusk. And Dondozo, for good measure.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 422-500 (104.4 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 912-1074 (210.1 - 247.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 776-914 (153.9 - 181.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm looking forward to seeing how it slots in.
You know what, im going to do an investigation Specs Grass Knot, give me an hour and ill see what do we have
 

1LDK

Trial by fury
is a Top Team Rater
looking forward to seeing how it slots in
ill see what do we have
Okay so Im back after the investigation of

"Is Grass Knot worth it in this meta?"

In case somebody doesn't, know, Grass Knot is a move that deals damage based on weight

2SnhCWf.png



This here is the Bulbapedia stats, so what im going to do is list all the Pokémon who weight 200 kilograms or more and see how worth it is on the end, green is good damage, orange is meh damage, purple is bad damage

Greninja @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Grass Knot
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam

This is the set I'm using for testing (the order of the list is weight based) and im using mons that are on the viability rankings, also, I think it should be said that im not taking tera as a factor for these calcs, so every mon here has their original types

:Tyranitar: 87.5% chance to OHKO (outdamages Hydro Pump)
:Dragonite: 8.6 - 10% against bulky sets, yikes
:Baxcalibur: 38 - 44.7% its a 3HKO, but Ice beam and Dark Pulse do more (both 2HKO)

:Dondozo: 139.6 - 164.6% (outdamages everything by a mile)
:Clodsire: 38.8 - 46% it gets outdamage by Ice Beam and Hydro Pump, but Clodsire could be water absorb so ill make it orange
:Iron Treads: 57.8 - 68.2% this calcs are against AV defensive treads, it gets outdamaged by Hydro Pump (clean OHKO)

:Garganacl: 95.5 - 112.8% Max Hp max spedef carefull it outdamages everything
:Hippowdon: 104.7 - 124.2% max hp max spedef carefull, outdamages everything
:Iron Thorns: 168.9 - 198.8% it outdamages Hydro Pump but both archieve OHKO

:Orthworm: 58.4 - 68.8% it gets outdamaged by hydro (clean KO) but its enough to force the Berry
:Great Tusk: 80.6 - 95.3% against max hp max spedef carefull AV included, it outdamages Hydro pump
:Skeledirge: 26.2 - 30.9% with a 248 HP / 252+ SpD, Hydro has a 75% of OHKO
:Roaring Moon: 35 - 41.3% it outdoes Hydro but not Ice Beam, who KOs clean
:Iron Hands: 56.1 - 66.1% against a no hp max spedef hands, it outdamages everything and secures the 2HKO
:Ting Lu: 60.7 - 71.5% max hp max spedef carefull, it outdamages hydro although both archieve 2HKO status
:Cetitan: 83.6 - 98.5% its the most damaging move, altough hydro and dark pulse have a 2HKO range, unless rocks are in play then its a Hydro/grass tie


So these are all the 200 kilogram mons that you wanna use Grass Knot on, now, to answer the question, is grass knot viable?

the answer is: figure it out yourself, im tired, give me likes

EDIT: forgot about garganacl lmaooooooooooooooooo, there, fixed it
 
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Okay so Im back after the investigation of

"Is Grass Knot worth it in this meta?"

In case somebody doesn't, know, Grass Knot is a move that deals damage based on weight

View attachment 487201


This here is the Bulbapedia stats, so what im going to do is list all the Pokémon who weight 200 kilograms or more and see how worth it is on the end, green is good damage, orange is meh damage, purple is bad damage

Greninja @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Grass Knot
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam

This is the set I'm using for testing (the order of the list is weight based) and im using mons that are on the viability rankings

:Tyranitar: 87.5% chance to OHKO (outdamages Hydro Pump)
:Dragonite: 8.6 - 10% against bulky sets, yikes
:Baxcalibur: 38 - 44.7% its a 3HKO, but Ice beam and Dark Pulse do more (both 2HKO)

:Dondozo: 139.6 - 164.6% (outdamages everything by a mile)
:Clodsire: 38.8 - 46% it gets outdamage by Ice Beam and Hydro Pump, but Clodsire could be water absorb so ill make it orange
:Iron Treads: 57.8 - 68.2% this calcs are against AV defensive treads, it gets outdamaged by Hydro Pump (clean OHKO)

:Hippowdon: 104.7 - 124.2% max hp max spedef carefull, outdamages everything
:Iron Thorns: 168.9 - 198.8% it outdamages Hydro Pump but both archieve OHKO

:Orthworm: 58.4 - 68.8% it gets outdamaged by hydro (clean KO) but its enough to force the Berry
:Great Tusk: 80.6 - 95.3% against max hp max spedef carefull AV included, it outdamages Hydro pump
:Skeledirge: 26.2 - 30.9% with a 248 HP / 252+ SpD, Hydro has a 75% of OHKO
:Roaring Moon: 35 - 41.3% it outdoes Hydro but not Ice Beam, who KOs clean
:Iron Hands: 56.1 - 66.1% against a no hp max spedef hands, it outdamages everything and secures the 2HKO
:Ting Lu: 60.7 - 71.5% max hp max spedef carefull, it outdamages hydro although both archieve 2HKO status
:Cetitan: 83.6 - 98.5% its the most damaging move, altough hydro and dark pulse have a 2HKO range, unless rocks are in play then its a Hydro/grass tie


So these are all the 200 kilogram mons that you wanna use Grass Knot on, now, to answer the question, is grass knot viable?

the answer is: figure it out yourself, im tired, give me likes
It's not that important, but just for coverage / thoroughness:

:Tauros-Paldea-Water: 152.5 - 180% - outdamages everything

---

And, of course, :Garganacl: is 95.5 - 112.8% with your set against Rock and Water, and 47.7 - 56.4% against fairy (though still your best move by a decent bit). My gut says it's probably not worth it to change your speed tier just for one matchup, but if you care more about Garg than the speed tiers you'd be losing.. Maybe?

Overall, that seems like a pretty good spread of mons to be hitting. Better than I gave credit for, even. Thanks for the work!
 
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