Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Finchinator]

Skeledirge belongs on that list more than Cetitan and non-RB Pawmot do.

Again: I went out of my way to say this thread isn’t for discussion about the viability list just a few posts up within the last 15 minutes. This shouldn’t require repeated warnings.

We are 3 days into a metagame and I got the thread up ASAP by sacrificing my evening for the sake of having a resource for the community. Perhaps instead of meeting that effort with skepticism and negativity, people can be reasonable and follow a simple instruction.

 

[alephgalactus]

Again: I went out of my way to say this thread isn’t for discussion about the viability list just a few posts up within the last 15 minutes. This shouldn’t require repeated warnings.

Whoops, mistake on my part. Must have skimmed over that bit. I think the real failing here was assuming people on the Smogon forums can read.

 

[5camp]

see the part about this being tentative and loose was not an invitation for people to use this thread to suggest changes -- this is not the vr thread and there will not be one until rankings actually are out as opposed to just the list

thanks for the input though, i do appreciate the intent! this thread is still predominantly for the topic of metagame discussion rather than VR related matters

Fair enough

Has anyone found any use for Brute Bonnet then? I've ran into a grand total of one person running it on ladder, and they were using Quick Claw so they weren't exactly playing super seriously

 

[TrainerGeist]

Can you let us have fun more than 2 days before banning everything ?

Ubers is right there mah boi.

 

[alephgalactus]

Has anyone found any use for Brute Bonnet then? I've ran into a grand total of one person running it on ladder, and they were using Quick Claw so they weren't exactly playing super seriously

It’s geared towards defensive/tank roles, but it lacks the tools to distinguish itself from other Pokémon in those roles. If you really need a Spore user that can switch into Psychic-types, then sure, I guess, but it’s generally outclassed as a Spore user by Amogus and Breloom and as a fat Grass/Dark type by the Chinese snail whose name I keep forgetting and refuse to look up because calling it the Chinese Snail is funnier.

 

[Bold School]

I want to talk about rain and priority. Terastallizing has just made everything very HO and a lot of priority is busted right now. I think it might actually be the most broken generational gimmick yet. Z-Moves and Dynamax had limited turns. Z-Moves and Megas took up an item slot, except for Rayquaza which was Uber banned.

Anyway, I found out rain teams can be especially good for busted priority. So I wanted to post a bit about priority rain teams.

Palafin
IMO, the next one that should be banned is Palafin. The 60 BP priority move off of 160 base attack is crazy enough on normal teams. But in the rain? I don't know if you can run a decent team without a water immunity because Jet Punch is that oppressive. I tried countering it with Clodsire, but Bulk Up set up or Zen Headbutt made it not really a counter.

Of course, banning Palafin doesn't actually eliminate this problem. There are several strong Aqua Jet abusers. They just aren't as strong as Palafin, which is extremely oppressive even outside the rain. They also tend to have lower base speed than Palafin, meaning Palafin's priority will go first and this usually means a KO.

Azumarill
Huge Power is pretty good with double STAB. Most people are familiar with the Belly Drum Set. I tried Choice Band. It was ok. Huge Power + double water STAB + Band + Rain does do work. It's fast, but not as strong without the set up.

Basculin
This fish can stack terastallizing with Adaptability. This was another band set, though it doesn't have access to Flip Turn anymore. Whenever Basculegion crosses over, this will be an even bigger threat than Basculin.

Quaquaval

This pokemon is also worth mentioning because it has Moxie, which could stack with priority or even the speed boosting Aqua Step. Not many pokemon can boost both speed and attack with no set up moves. I have not personally tried this one yet, but in theory it's a devastating attacker. The issue is you need a KO first to activate Moxie before it gets up to the others. Basculin and Azumarill have a much more immediately devastating aqua jet. Quaquaval does have better sweeping potential, though, and it doesn't really need to be a Choice Band set. It also has access to rapid spin for extra hazard control if you need that.

Best Jet Sweeper?

Palafin. Jet Punch > Aqua Jet

Outside of Palafin, I'm not sure. Quaquaval is really the only one of the other 3 that can boost speed to maybe not lose a priority war to Palafin. But it has to get set up before Palafin can to do this.

Pelipper

You all know Pelliper. It's a good rain setter. Maybe the only OU rain setter. Makes a decent defensive wall and slow pivot at times. Unfortunately, it doesn't get defog anymore. This really hurts because of the next pokemon.

Talonflame

Unironically, this might be the best rain sweeper. Talonflame can make up for its usually crappy power by running Choice Specs and Hurricane. Terastallized to Flying, it can throw off double STAB 120 base power priority with perfect accuracy in the rain. It can also run Tera Blast to make it less reliant on rain. It doesn't hit as hard as Hurricane, but an 80 BP double Stab Priority move is nothing to sneeze at.

The problem is you need real hazard support. Stealth Rocks are death. The rest of the hazards don't matter because it's flying. Talonflame can sometimes still function if it is chipped just because it is naturally so fast. But it will lose to other priority if it is no longer at full health.

Clodsire

An interesting support pokemon for rain teams. It can give you both a water immunity and a much needed electric immunity, which you'll want if you are running double flying with Pelipper and Talonflame and/or multiple water types like Pelipper and one of the pokemon mentioned above. It can also set hazards and soak up T-Spikes, which is nice. I just haven't found a set that doesn't still lose to Palafin.

 

[rosesscythes]

VIABILITY LIST IS UP!!!

Much like last generation, we want to get something out ASAP so that everyone has a list for discussion, building, and so on. Please keep in mind it is very tentative and subject to change (much like the constantly evolving metagame in its infancy).

Surprised by no Gallade. It effectively gets a Band on its STABs, freeing it up to run Scarf to buff its Speed. Sure, that speed isn’t much right now with the likes of speedboosting Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant, but it’s definitely got a niche that’ll grow with bans.

Also amazed Shocks and Jugulis are here. I’ve at least been won over by the argument for Slither Wing with First Impression, but I haven’t seen the former do anything even on Sun and the latter I haven’t even seen, nor have I heard a compelling argument for it.

 

[Suricata]

Can you let us have fun more than 2 days before banning everything ?

u could enjoy them in Uber. And Please do not represent others.

 

[Poirepi]

Ubers is right there mah boi.

The very notion of "metagame" after only 48 hours sounds preposterous to me. People haven't even tried to figure out ways to counterbalance the sheer powercreep of this generation, because we are legitimately having too much fun testing the new mons without further thinking. It's not as though Fluttermane couldn't be responded with Terastalization, strong physical priority moves or Blissey (not perfect though)... The banning always occurs as if the new mechanics were already considered "uncompetitive".

 

[Taka]

Fair enough

Has anyone found any use for Brute Bonnet then? I've ran into a grand total of one person running it on ladder, and they were using Quick Claw so they weren't exactly playing super seriously

A lot of the Band palafin sets running around lack any fighting stab (seem to be jet, wave, zen, flip), so brute bonnet can kind of come in and threaten to ohko it/put something to sleep. But its very niche and I wouldn't recommend it

 

[Cratersmash]

we are legitimately having too much fun testing the new mons without further thinking.

I’m personally just using DD Pult and then throwing Pokemon at the wall until I get a functional team.

 

[Poirepi]

u could enjoy them in Uber. And Please do not represent others.

Have you heard of the grammatical notion called "impersonnel we" or "we of majesty" ?

 

[Taka]

I want to talk about rain and priority. Terastallizing has just made everything very HO and a lot of priority is busted right now. I think it might actually be the most broken generational gimmick yet. Z-Moves and Dynamax had limited turns. Z-Moves and Megas took up an item slot, except for Rayquaza which was Uber banned.

Anyway, I found out rain teams can be especially good for busted priority. So I wanted to post a bit about priority rain teams.

Palafin
IMO, the next one that should be banned is Palafin. The 60 BP priority move off of 160 base attack is crazy enough on normal teams. But in the rain? I don't know if you can run a decent team without a water immunity because Jet Punch is that oppressive. I tried countering it with Clodsire, but Bulk Up set up or Psychic Fangs made it not really a counter.

Of course, banning Palafin doesn't actually eliminate this problem. There are several strong Aqua Jet abusers. They just aren't as strong as Palafin, which is extremely oppressive even outside the rain. They also tend to have lower base speed than Palafin, meaning Palafin's priority will go first and this usually means a KO.

Azumarill
Huge Power is pretty good with double STAB. Most people are familiar with the Belly Drum Set. I tried Choice Band. It was ok. Huge Power + double water STAB + Band + Rain does do work. It's fast, but not as strong without the set up.

Basculin
This fish can stack terastallizing with Adaptability. This was another band set, though it doesn't have access to Flip Turn anymore. Whenever Basculegion crosses over, this will be an even bigger threat than Basculin.

Quaquaval

This pokemon is also worth mentioning because it has Moxie, which could stack with priority or even the speed boosting Aqua Step. Not many pokemon can boost both speed and attack with no set up moves. I have not personally tried this one yet, but in theory it's a devastating attacker. The issue is you need a KO first to activate Moxie before it gets up to the others. Basculin and Azumarill have a much more immediately devastating aqua jet. Quaquaval does have better sweeping potential, though, and it doesn't really need to be a Choice Band set. It also has access to rapid spin for extra hazard control if you need that.

Best Jet Sweeper?

Palafin. Jet Punch > Aqua Jet

Outside of Palafin, I'm not sure. Quaquaval is really the only one of the other 3 that can boost speed to maybe not lose a priority war to Palafin. But it has to get set up before Palafin can to do this.

Pelipper

You all know Pelliper. It's a good rain setter. Maybe the only OU rain setter. Makes a decent defensive wall and slow pivot at times. Unfortunately, it doesn't get defog anymore. This really hurts because of the next pokemon.

Talonflame

Unironically, this might be the best rain sweeper. Talonflame can make up for its usually crappy power by running Choice Specs and Hurricane. Terastallized to Flying, it can throw off double STAB 120 base power priority with perfect accuracy in the rain. It can also run Tera Blast to make it less reliant on rain. It doesn't hit as hard as Hurricane, but an 80 BP double Stab Priority move is nothing to sneeze at.

The problem is you need real hazard support. Stealth Rocks are death. The rest of the hazards don't matter because it's flying. Talonflame can sometimes still function if it is chipped just because it is naturally so fast. But it will lose to other priority if it is no longer at full health.

Clodsire

An interesting support pokemon for rain teams. It can give you both a water immunity and a much needed electric immunity, which you'll want if you are running double flying with Pelipper and Talonflame and/or multiple water types like Pelipper and one of the pokemon mentioned above. It can also set hazards and soak up T-Spikes, which is nice. I just haven't found a set that doesn't still lose to Palafin.

I've been curious, but could Kilowattrel fit onto rain teams? Its a decent abuser of thunder/hurricane/weather ball too, though it doesnt pack quite a punch as gen 8 Zapdos. It does have a great speed tier though, and it could abuse specs pretty decently.

 

[Bold School]

I've been curious, but could Kilowattrel fit onto rain teams? Its a decent abuser of thunder/hurricane/weather ball too, though it doesnt pack quite a punch as gen 8 Zapdos. It does have a great speed tier though, and it could abuse specs pretty decently.

Maybe. The biggest problem I find with it is the limitations of Tailwind, both the limited turns and setting it up safely. In rain, you could maybe make up some of the extra power with Thunder and Hurricane. Killowattrel is fast enough where you don't really need Tailwind. But it's pretty frail to opposing priority.

Anyways, I think you would want one of the other abilities besides Wind Power. Competitive is interesting as a Defog counter. However, you are running at least two flying types with that and Pellipper so I don't think the opponent would be likely to want to Defog for you. Volt Absorb is probably the best bet for the electric immunity.

 

[haunted paper]

Aside from hoping terastilize gets banned soon, I do think Chien Pao is another great mon to ban next. It has very little answers and it w/tera it can dismantle those answers. Chien Pao has something for most of the meta with just 4 moves, excellent priority moves in sucker punch and ice shard, great offensive typing, and very good coverage in secret sword. The ability comes in clutch for walls like dondonzo. Excellent mon that requires a lot of answers. A healthy faster mon (healthy so it doesn't get ko'd by priority), priority mons like Scizor, and fat mons like dondonzo. There's a reason a lot of teams are running this threat.

Palafin and Cyclizar (shed tail) are crazy too.

 

[Lord Pxperto]

Awesome question, yes.

Last Respects vs Houndstone is a really interesting topic. Normally when only one Pokemon gets a move or only one Pokemon is problematic with a move, we default to banning the Pokemon as there is no way to alienate the move as a broken element. However, we are in a position where we know the move Last Respects will get greater distribution with the release of Pokemon Home with strong abusers, which leads us to a crossroads: can we tier based off of future hypothesizes for the sake of minimizing current collateral damage of bans? It is still being discussed, but it is possible right now that we take action on Last Respects or Houndstone in the future depending on how discussions and gameplay go.

The only new abuser Will be the basculegion male and female form, that are just the same Pokémon

 

[Sets]

Here's a team I've been using.

https://pokepast.es/a766d84b1a4b94ce

I'd say Palafin-H is the number one threat I consider when team-building right now, even more so than Flutter Mane was. Having normal types on your team, even just one, was enough to deal with Houndstone. But Palafin, that guy is just bonkers.

 

[Msousagamer]

Fair enough

Has anyone found any use for Brute Bonnet then? I've ran into a grand total of one person running it on ladder, and they were using Quick Claw so they weren't exactly playing super seriously

Brune bonnet has a good atk stat and spore so after the whale is gone it might see good use

 

[Eeveeto]

Stuff from the "viable" list Skeledirge beats (yeah, if it's my favorite Starter, I am going to fully defend him) :
Amoonguss (except Toxic).
Avalugg
Breloom (unless Rock Tomb, and even then it's a check if something else is already asleep).
Cloyster (doesn't switch-in reliably, but beats 1 on 1 without considering Terastal).
Corviknight
Hatterene (depends on the sets of both, but generally Skeledirge is a reliable check to all sets. In TR, these 2 Mons can be big friends vs the HO meta ).
Klefki
Scizor (unless it switches into LO or Band Thief)
Sylveon (except Shadow Ball or Teraast variants)
Volcarona (as long as Skeledirge has 252 HP EVs and hasn't lost Boots, it always counters Volcarona, except Terablast of course)
Cetitan
Iron Hands (unless switches into EQ, needs WoW)
Iron Moth (needs Earth Power)
Iron Valiant (except if switches into Knock)
Maushold
Orthworm
Pawmot
Slither Wings (unless switches into EQ)


For sure there are Pokemon in that list that are less viable than Skeledirge, such as Lokix, Bisharp (no Knock Off) , Cloyster or Ceruledge.

 

[rosesscythes]

Have you heard of the grammatical notion called "impersonnel we" or "we of majesty" ?

Have you heard of any of the following?:
-deez
-sugma
-ligma
-eadma
-gohf
-shudda
or
-bidema

If so, you may be entitled to playing Ubers instead of being a contrarian when it's pretty clear by the rest of the thread that a number of these new Pokemon, not the least of which being Flutter Mane, are generally agreed upon to either need banning or voting for actual enjoyment to continue on a long-scale timeline. I know you think you're aiding diversity or using your favorites or whatever, but you're actually limiting strategy for success with not only the Pokemon actually viable in OU, but also those inevitably lower-tier Pokemon that people can find fun and creativity with. Being pedantic about grammar, especially when there has been worse in this forum by people with both more understanding of the meta and more general manners towards others, doesn't exactly help either.

 

[lionace]

Stuff from the "viable" list Skeledirge beats (yeah, if it's my favorite Starter, I am going to fully defend him) :
Amoonguss (except Toxic).
Avalugg
Breloom (unless Rock Tomb, and even then it's a check if something else is already asleep).
Cloyster (doesn't switch-in reliably, but beats 1 on 1 without considering Terastal).
Corviknight
Hatterene (depends on the sets of both, but generally Skeledirge is a reliable check to all sets. In TR, these 2 Mons can be big friends vs the HO meta ).
Klefki
Scizor (unless it switches into LO or Band Thief)
Sylveon (except Shadow Ball or Teraast variants)
Volcarona (as long as Skeledirge has 252 HP EVs and hasn't lost Boots, it always counters Volcarona, except Terablast of course)
Cetitan
Iron Hands (unless switches into EQ, needs WoW)
Iron Moth (needs Earth Power)
Iron Valiant (except if switches into Knock)
Maushold
Orthworm
Pawmot
Slither Wings (unless switches into EQ)


For sure there are Pokemon in that list that are less viable than Skeledirge, such as Lokix, Bisharp (no Knock Off) , Cloyster or Ceruledge.

It's my favorite starter too! What nature is recommended best to use him for at the moment?

 

[TheRealBigC]

I wanna talk a bit about Iron Thorns real quick bc I think he's quite slept on:


Iron Thorns @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock (this can be so much more! coverage out the ass, tera blast is nice too)

Water is just a generic defensive Tera that I used for the sake of resisting Jet Punch; other decent options ime include Flying (immune to EQs thrown at you, resist Mach Punch from Breloom which ime is a big danger for HO, neutral to a lot of other prio), Rock (haha stone edge go brr), Grass (good midground for resisting Jet Punch + Ground), but anyway I think this mon is really good on HO. You can say that about like all the paradox mons but shrug, I really wanna talk about how nuts this is though.

Nothing in SV OU really tanks these 2 moves at +2, p much everything that could got snapped; Toedscruel and Breloom are the only 2 mons that resist both and they both get wiped off the face of the earth:

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 225-264 (86.2 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (+1 + booster energy, dies guaranteed if ur rock tera obv)
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Tentacruel: 233-274 (64 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge damage (idk if anyones running this mon or what spreads theyre running if so but ya not much chip required, dies if u rock tera, u wall it if grass tera, etc)

Its Speed tier is really nice, it's unfortunately slower than Chien-Pao even at +1 but these EVs let you outspeed Meowscarada at +1; you could go higher if Kilowattrel or Weavile end up being relevant but I don't see either happening (assuming Chien-Pao stays in the tier that is). Obviously after a DD you just kinda obliterate shit, like a lot of the mons ppl use to "check" this are just not answers at all lol, for example:

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Iron Treads: 428-504 (111.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 452-532 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 374-442 (93.5 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 261-308 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's not perfect obvs, you're walled pretty hard by Quagsire unless you're Ground Tera (or Grass Tera Blast) and stuff like Hippo can soft check, but being super bulky & having overall solid coverage against everything while being so strong with Booster Energy and compressing the SR slot for HO makes this mon worth looking into imo.

Here's the 5 min team I built with it; I played like 5 games so I'm sure there's a ton I'm missing, but it was fun to mess around with and I won em all (albeit on very low ladder). https://pokepast.es/539113de37e88920 don't face breloom!

fun meta overall hoping it shapes up well :D

I'm really enjoying Iron Thorns as well, he's great on screens and hits like a truck with booster energy. I think Tera Ice is a great tech for the infamous Bolt Beam coverage; lets you nuke stuff like Clodsire, Great Tusk, Chomp, Hippo etc., and you can just run Ice Punch instead of Tera Blast so you don't have to Terastilize if you don't need to in that particular game. Only thing I'd say is that you definitely want to run him with some bulky water resist like Quag or Rotom-W or at the very least run Tera Grass (which is kinda questionable imo, Quag isn't that common) so you don't get owned by Palafin. Good post

EDIT: Actually having thought about Breloom and Scizor Tera Grass makes more sense seeing as Tera Ice makes you still weak to both of their priorities. That being said if you're running Iron Thorns on screens you're probably running it with Espathra who wants Tera Fighting so I still think Ice Punch as a 4th move with Tera Ice as backup is good

 

[Senni]

Tera is fun but ultimately too much imo. In any meta, games come down to i. how well the teams are built; ii. matchup; iii. how well players play the games.

And in a balanced meta a well built team played well can and will more often than not overcome, even against overwhelmingly “bad” matchups.

Tera takes away consistency and makes it hard to understand what “well built” is. And even the greatest playing, those times where ur making the right doubles or getting the proper positioning, etc. etc. all just falls away when the opponent teras randomly at the last turn or something.

Games have pivotal moments and and ofc there are always 50/50s. But tera forces more of those pivotal turns into 50/50s.

It’s fun and i think y’all should take ur time with it but in the end i think it should and will go.

- also flutter had to go. those speed ties drove me nuts.

 

[Eeveeto]

It's my favorite starter too! What nature is recommended best to use him for at the moment?

I haven't played, so can't tell you for sure. Pdef with Bold and Max Defense checks the most threats. However, Calm with Sdef checks things like Hatterrene and Iron Moth better. There is also the potential of making it a bulky offensive Mon, with Modest and Max HP and Special Attack. In Trick Room it would be Quiet.

 

[Local Dog]

Can I ask how definitive these early meta bans are? Are they gonna be retested or reconsidered later or are they banned until enough members of the community agree and ask to unban them?

Anyways, I personally am highly against further bans at this point. I am very much against the Houndstone ban and believe that by taking certain new mons, the game will be less interesting

A lot of the top tiers are highly dependent on how they are positioned, requiring both skill from the player that uses them and the opponent. Palafin for example, you can't just go in. You have to find an opportunity to switch out, then switch in again, whilst having to consider different sets that all have their own opportunity costs. Non hero Palafin is very weak and can be either OHKO'd or heavily weakened by non super effective moves, if you don't run HBD you also get extra rolled over by hazards. Whilst we are on HBD, Palafin has several sets with different use cases and as said, each of those has opportunity costs. Non scarf Palafin gets outsped and revenge killed from Pult with minimal chip, non HBD Palafin suffers from hazards, LO Palafin adds recoil damage on top of the hazard damage...

You see the Mon on team preview and you know that you gotta consider it, which is possible. Again, it takes effort from both parties in switching in and reacting to it. The conditions were it rolls over teams are dependent on these efforts and their effect. It's skill based and not like Vish or Spectrier last gen

Shed Tail is similar. You see Cylizar in preview and you know that it will come. According to the rest of the team you see and have yourself, you can act on it. Hazard stacking, keeping the mons in the back that are able to deal with Shed Tail or the set up Mon behind it

To adapt and understand to these mons once you perceive them in preview and to position in accordance to it seems to be the most important skill in this new meta and frankly, I love it. It makes them game actually feel fresh and rewards analytical skills, unusual team building and long term strategy

I hope I don't sound like an asshole when I say this, I guess most people here who ask for bans than me random smuck and I don't want to attack or degrade anyone's take on the meta, but I think that people are too hasty to judge on the new mons and oftentimes didn't manage to adapt to the new threats. I also don't want to say "just adapt" to everything, I understand that threats like Mane can't be easily adapted too and warp team building too much around them, but I don't see any other threat atm that is at that point

I think that bans on mons such as Houndstone, Palafin or Cylizar will make the game a lot more like gen 8's meta and I don't want the fourth gen that's mechanically and gameplay wise like gen 6. The current meta is extremely interesting and mons that seem broken on paper (but are still adaptable to in game, unlike for example Flutter Mane) are part of the reason for it

Please abstain from bans the next few weeks. We have years to figure out this meta and I agree with banning something when it becomes problematic, but I don't agree with sniffing out interesting aspects of the new meta before they can fully develope