Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Correct me if I'm radically misinterpreting something, but why is Garganacl being so fervently pushed for a ban if at high-level play (SPL) it's consistently been underperforming in its roles?
Its underperformance would likely be a result of many people running very specific counter measures against it, like fast Substiute Hatterene, Covert Cloak on random Pokemon like Dirge, Slowking, etc. or some other counter tech I'm not thinking of. The fact that many of these adaptions (i.e. Covert Cloak) have almost no practical use outside of countering Garganacl is the reason that people want it banned, as it can restrictive on teambuilding and could be seen as overprepping for one threat, particularly as some of these adaptations aren't even guaranteed to work. Garg is also one of the best users of Tera due to its useful defensive attributes (high bulk, immunity to status, Salt Cure, Ghost Resistance) being far more useful on a different type like Fairy.
 
SPL's overall usage statistics are pretty illuminating. While they don't tell the whole picture, when you look at what Gen 9's meta looks like despite its relative youth, it's pretty easy to draw a certain conclusion: Great Tusk is a massive outlier as far as use rate. You've got to go all the way back to gen 2 to find anything else that breaks 66% usage (let alone 75!), and those metas are.. to put it mildly? Not the healthiest in terms of diversity.

It'd be easy to argue all day about just how big of a deal it is, but as far as league play goes? There is a pretty clear consensus as to just how essential Tusk is to teambuilding.
also worth noting that in one of the generations that I think one could easily argue has metagame balance issues that should be handled via tiering action (gen 7) the most used mon (lando-t, naturally) has about 40-50% usage (depending on what you pull from, varies. spl has 50% for instance). if you look at all the things that one could reasonably consider 'broken' or worthy of tiering action in kartana, magearna, ash-greninja, possibly volcarona (a huge stretch), lando-t doesn't answer any of these almost at all. It can help awkwardly pivot around kartana and av magearna but that's far from the main methods teams typically want to use to handle these threats (see: one of the most common defensive structures for BO is lando+torn-t+av magearna). While these numbers aren't quite as high as tusk is, they definitely show that pokemon can be extremely common while not necessarily being a response to brokens.

Great Tusk is simply gen 9's new landorus-therian, an excellent option for defensive and offensive role compression with a myriad of good sets, but certainly not broken or a herald of broken elements in the metagame at large.

(also for usage stats the showdown ladder usage stats and spl usage stats are your friend, and typically other large tournaments will also have similar threads. willing to give advice on how to use/interpret if you like. there's also various third party websites that unofficially help visualize, but they tend to be a bit out of date at times)
It's also probably worth noting that pre-espathra ban statistics reflect a different metagame for what that's worth
This is a bit outside the scope now of Gen 9 OU but hot take - something being broken should be banned regardless of how much usage it has or what it does for the tier.
Gen 2 Snorlax is broken. Citing it is not a good example of something being used on every team yet deserving to stay in a metagame.
Thanks y'all for the corrections (and links to proper usage stats)!!

And just to make this not a one-liner, I find it interesting how Grimm dropped but not Orthworm- there was a few people talking here about forgoing Screens on their Shed Tail HO, wonder how that went?
 

awyp

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Scizor's best MUs were against Valiant and Pao. Since Valiant isn't SUPER common, Scizor isn't as favorable.

Just took a look at the tier shifts list. The most surprising to me are Grimm/Scizor drop to UU, and the Skew/Float/Tauros-Water drop to RU. I guess Rain is becoming unfavorable now, or Skew/Float are just not favorable in Rain anymore with Gren and Wake existing.
| 5 | Iron Valiant | 23.173% |

Valiant is super common if it's found in 23% of teams, I think Scizor dropped in general because I think the amount of Bulky Waters including Tera Water Garg becoming popular recently as well as increase usage from Skele that also does a good job walling a majority of its moves.


| 16 | Skeledirge | 12.752% | (Feb)

| 23 | Skeledirge | 9.389% | (Jan)
 
This is a bit outside the scope now of Gen 9 OU but hot take - something being broken should be banned regardless of how much usage it has or what it does for the tier.
Gen 2 Snorlax is broken. Citing it is not a good example of something being used on every team yet deserving to stay in a metagame.
While I get this sentiment, I don't agree that it applies to Great Tusk. GSClax and Tyranitar are threats so powerful they shape the rest of the game around them. Great Tusk is a response to other threats because it kinda just does everything. It's ever so slightly faster than Gholdengo and fast enough to potentially sweep, it's the only offensive Rapid Spin user and one of the few Knock Off users, it's got Fighting and Ground coverage to hit the biggest threats, it's got got great defenses on top of everything. You remove Snorlax from GSC or Tyranitar from RSE, you alter the entire metagame and make it something completely different. You remove Great Tusk from SV, everything that's there stays there and just gets better.
 
| 5 | Iron Valiant | 23.173% |

Valiant is super common if it's found in 23% of teams, I think Scizor dropped in general because I think the amount of Bulky Waters including Tera Water Garg becoming popular recently as well as increase usage from Skele that also does a good job walling a majority of its moves.


| 16 | Skeledirge | 12.752% | (Feb)

| 23 | Skeledirge | 9.389% | (Jan)
Yeah, I didn't look at the exact usage stats, just the rises and drops when I posted that. Valiant is fairly common at 23%, but Scizor still just... doesn't have a good overall time in OU right now.
 
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Scizor lost Roost which means it doesn't stick around as long as it used to, so it's mostly running fully offensive sets and they have trouble getting through many common mons like Amoonguss, Skeledirge, Gholdengo, Donbozo...
Introduction of Cinderace, Greninja and Wake also don't help it since they all resist it's BP and hit it back really hard

I imagine the reason it stuck around untill now was that priority BP was still valuable enough to warrant it slotting onto a team, but with the bans of offensive mons like Flutter and especially Chien Pao, it's become less and less valuable to have that priority BP on hand and now it's finally dropped. If you really need priority, Breloom or Dnite do it better from what I can tell, Steel just isn't that important offensively anymore.

At least this is my experience with both using it and playing against it
 
Scizor lost Roost which means it doesn't stick around as long as it used to, so it's mostly running fully offensive sets and they have trouble getting through many common mons like Amoonguss, Skeledirge, Gholdengo, Donbozo...
Introduction of Cinderace, Greninja and Wake also don't help it since they all resist it's BP and hit it back really hard

I imagine the reason it stuck around untill now was that priority BP was still valuable enough to warrant it slotting onto a team, but with the bans of offensive mons like Flutter and especially Chien Pao, it's become less and less valuable to have that priority BP on hand and now it's finally dropped. If you really need priority, Breloom or Dnite do it better from what I can tell, Steel just isn't that important offensively anymore.

At least this is my experience with both using it and playing against it
Definitely it. No Roost means it can more easily justify using Defog at least, but Corviknight does that better. A lot of what's been banned recently is threatened by Bullet Punch, so now that the only common Fairy in OU is Hatterene, who can take one hit and then fire back with Mystical Fire, Scizor doesn't really have anything to do. Close Combat's nice, but then Fighting weak Pokemon tend to Tera out of that into Fairy.

Edit: Azumarill and Iron Valiant too but one of those is Steel neutral and the other can live a Bullet Punch before firing back etc. and etc..
 
No Roost means it can more easily justify using Defog at least, but Corviknight does that better.
I'd say this is false. Defog is something Scizor does better than Corviknight due to Scizor's access to Technician Thief to actually threaten Gholdengo. Defog Corviknight can't do anything to the tier's Defog-blocker.

252+ Atk Technician Scizor Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 226-266 (71.7 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Got to play around with FlamiGOD tonight. Was quite a bit of fun (except when I ran into really stupid people playing really stupid things...) Scarf FlamiGOD feels like an insanely good revenge killer/late game sweeper.

That note aside, ran into Garg twice without my Covert Gastro, and struggled to actually get anything done because of fear of Salt Cure. Couldn't get my Dirge in safely against it. Covert Cloak Clod was super bad against it, as I either was forced to Tera (which I didn't), or die to unboosted EQ.

Garg doing Garg things. Forced to switch from Clod to Gastro.
 
I'd say this is false. Defog is something Scizor does better than Corviknight due to Scizor's access to Technician Thief to actually threaten Gholdengo. Defog Corviknight can't do anything to the tier's Defog-blocker.

252+ Atk Technician Scizor Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 226-266 (71.7 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thief is a move that competes for a slot alongside Close Combat, Trailblaze, Tera Blast, or even Defog itself. Not every set is going to be able to fit it in. Scizor with both Defog and Thief has that great niche, but I wouldn't say the blanket statement of "Scizor is a better Defog user than Corviknight" is true.
 

Karxrida

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The easiest way to illustrate how gamewarping Stealth Rock is is to imagine the history of the game if it was a different type than rock. Stealth Ice? Suddenly dragons are barely viable and every dragon analysis of every generation has to start with their crippling weakness.

It's quite simple really: Infinite damage potential off one move is, and always has been, stupid.
I'd like to highlight the hypothetical of Ice-type SR making Dragons unviable because it's based on the flawed assumption that Rock-type SR already holds Pokémon back. SR has never stopped Dragonite or Volcarona from being massive terrors before the introduction of HDB. Talonflame was a defining threat of early XY before falling out of favor due to low Attack and meta shifts. Ho-Oh has been a top tier Uber for years. We just banned an SR-weak Pokémon that didn't need to run HDB to murder teams.

A lot of SR weak Pokémon are just shit in a vacuum because they're mostly things like early game Bug/Flying-types with awful stats. If SR is holding something back it's because it's too flawed to consider running already.

Also Spikes stacking is arguably worse.
 
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Just took a look at the tier shifts list. The most surprising to me are Grimm/Scizor drop to UU, and the Skew/Float/Tauros-Water drop to RU. I guess Rain is becoming unfavorable now, or Skew/Float are just not favorable in Rain anymore with Gren and Wake existing.
Rain abusers are dropping because Pelipper is in OU. All the rain abusers compete with each other in OU and thus stop each other from being in OU. As a result, rain is terrible in UU without good setters so they drop even lower since RU only looks at UU stats, not OU.
 
Thief is a move that competes for a slot alongside Close Combat, Trailblaze, Tera Blast, or even Defog itself. Not every set is going to be able to fit it in. Scizor with both Defog and Thief has that great niche, but I wouldn't say the blanket statement of "Scizor is a better Defog user than Corviknight" is true.
Except it is true. Defog is a waste of a slot on Corviknight in the current meta when not only can it not touch Gholdengo, there are a myriad of better hazard removers in the tier that can. Great Tusk, Scizor itself, Hatterene (not a remover but a deterrent, and can threaten Gholdengo with Mystical Fire), Torkoal, Toedscruel, Iron Treads, even Defog Talonflame is being used on stall over Corviknight. if you're gonna run defensive Corviknight, better to use a set of Brave Bird, Body Press, Roost, and U-turn for maximum coverage against the top physical threats in the tier and let someone like Great Tusk do the hazard-clearing.

I won't deny that Corviknight is the better defensive Steel-type, but I stand by the fact Scizor is the better Defogger. If you're not running Thief on Defog Scizor, it's even worse as a Defogger than Corviknight due to the lack of longevity and not being able to touch Gholdengo at the same time.
 
Except it is true. Defog is a waste of a slot on Corviknight in the current meta when not only can it not touch Gholdengo, there are a myriad of better hazard removers in the tier that can. Great Tusk, Scizor itself, Hatterene (not a remover but a deterrent, and can threaten Gholdengo with Mystical Fire), Torkoal, Toedscruel, Iron Treads, even Defog Talonflame is being used on stall over Corviknight. if you're gonna run defensive Corviknight, better to use a set of Brave Bird, Body Press, Roost, and U-turn for maximum coverage against the top physical threats in the tier and let someone like Great Tusk do the hazard-clearing.
I'm not sure why you brought up Rapid Spin users or Hatterene when that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, which is the move Defog and whether Scizor or Corviknight uses it better. I don't recall saying I thought Corviknight was better at clearing hazards than Great Tusk or Torkoal. Regardless, the issue is kinda summed up here:

If you're not running Thief on Defog Scizor, it's even worse as a Defogger than Corviknight due to the lack of longevity and not being able to touch Gholdengo at the same time.
Thief is a move that competes for a slot alongside Close Combat, Trailblaze, Tera Blast, or even Defog itself. Not every set is going to be able to fit it in.
The set you outlined for Corviknight, Brave Bird/Body Press/Roost/U-turn, would have to lose one of those to run Defog. That's a loss, no arguments here. Pivot Scizor usually has Bullet Punch and U-Turn for sure, then some combination of Close Combat, Thief, Swords Dance, and Defog. Swords Dance might not be a big deal for a set that's coming in and out a lot, but Close Combat has to be dropped as well to fit in the Defog/Thief combo. Do you think that Corviknight losing its Fighting coverage option is notably, objectively worse than Scizor losing its Fighting coverage option? Scizor can hit harder, but Corviknight can take hits better and doesn't have its quad Fire weakness. Yes, it beats Gholdengo, but only the offense sets with no HP investment get 2HKOd. And no matter which set it is, Gholdengo is faster and can 2HKO it back with Shadow Ball, while the combination of Thief/Bullet Punch isn't a guaranteed 2HKO in return without Tera.

The point being, Corviknight does not take the crippling loss for running Defog you think it does, and Scizor's role as a Defog user who can threaten Gholdengo isn't that sure of a bet even if you decide to commit to that combo.
 
Has someone already gone over why Grimm dropped? It was an honest surprise as screens seems to be better in the current gen with the lack of defog users and dengo to block it completely.
 
Has someone already gone over why Grimm dropped? It was an honest surprise as screens seems to be better in the current gen with the lack of defog users and dengo to block it completely.
Probably because Screens HO isn't very popular right now. Outside of that, the only other thing I've seen Grimm do is a weird bulk up set that sort of get slammed by anything with Unaware, or Scizor. lol
 
Except it is true. Defog is a waste of a slot on Corviknight in the current meta when not only can it not touch Gholdengo, there are a myriad of better hazard removers in the tier that can. Great Tusk, Scizor itself, Hatterene (not a remover but a deterrent, and can threaten Gholdengo with Mystical Fire), Torkoal, Toedscruel, Iron Treads, even Defog Talonflame is being used on stall over Corviknight. if you're gonna run defensive Corviknight, better to use a set of Brave Bird, Body Press, Roost, and U-turn for maximum coverage against the top physical threats in the tier and let someone like Great Tusk do the hazard-clearing.

I won't deny that Corviknight is the better defensive Steel-type, but I stand by the fact Scizor is the better Defogger. If you're not running Thief on Defog Scizor, it's even worse as a Defogger than Corviknight due to the lack of longevity and not being able to touch Gholdengo at the same time.
Calling it a waste is a bit of an exaggeration. Sure Gholdengo is annoying, but Corv matches up fine various hazard setters like Meowscarada, Garchomp, Glimmora, etc. and the telegraphed switch to Gholdengo can be exploited with a U-Turn into a Pokemon that can pressure it like Dragapult, Hydreigon, Meowscarada, etc. etc. Even on Bulk Up sets, I still like running Defog since having the option is useful against the few teamstyles that don't run Gholdengo or when Gholdengo has been KOed . I normally don't use it as my only hazard remover though, but being combo'd w/ Great Tusk or Hatterene will be sufficient enough. The fact that it isn't weak to Spikes, T-Spikes, or Stealth Rock is still a useful trait that it has over many other Hazard removers, which can struggle with them when their boots get knocked off.
 
Calling it a waste is a bit of an exaggeration. Sure Gholdengo is annoying, but Corv matches up fine various hazard setters like Meowscarada, Garchomp, Glimmora, etc. and the telegraphed switch to Gholdengo can be exploited with a U-Turn into a Pokemon that can pressure it like Dragapult, Hydreigon, Meowscarada, etc. etc. Even on Bulk Up sets, I still like running Defog since having the option is useful against the few teamstyles that don't run Gholdengo or when Gholdengo has been KOed . I normally don't use it as my only hazard remover though, but being combo'd w/ Great Tusk or Hatterene will be sufficient enough. The fact that it isn't weak to Spikes, T-Spikes, or Stealth Rock is still a useful trait that it has over many other Hazard removers, which can struggle with them when their boots get knocked off.
I whole-heartedly agree with this. Corvi is definitely the best of the small selection of Defoggers we have right now, and it does a pretty good job at it. Of course, people are always going to complain that Corvi is "too passive", and that going Roost Defog 2 Attack is exacerbating the problem... But what else is Corvi going to do? Bulk Up? Iron Defense? Hone Claws?
As someone who's ran Corvi since the start of the generation, I've been greatly enjoying what it brings to the table, even if the Dengos sort of show up and deny me my Defog. Buuut that's also why I like running Gastro/Clod with it, to check Dengo and make it sad.
 

awyp

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I think Corvi is underrated in the top 10, only of the only legitimate defoggers, and it has the ability to pivot, setup with the Bulk Up set as well as it can switch it's main moves from Iron Head to Brave Bird to Body Press and has a good ability + Roost.

| 10 | Corviknight | 16.202% |

From a defensive perspective it's 1 of 2 (Gholdengo) that is a steel type and has a recovery move, I think Gholdengos dominance in general is the only reason Corviknight doesn't pop into the top 5. Corvi can't touch Gholdengo or Garganacl, but you take all those things I said out of the picture, I think Corvi does a lot in this meta. It kind of checks Valiant if it's not carrying Thunderbolt, Glimmora, Meowscarada, Breloom if it's not carrying CB Close Combat, DD Nite, Physically based Dragapult, Tusk (if not Bulk Up) fixes a lot of defensive holes usually found on teams. I really think it's underrated.

And to make matters better, Magnezones usage is low as can be right now at:

| 61 | Magnezone | 1.124% |
 
Psychic spam?
What psychic spam?
But the metagame is full of dark types this generation.
How is anyone suppossed to use psychic spam reliably?
The thing is that Poltergeis carries that team just like Espartha was carrying Orth usage, Polt with terrain support to avoid sucker punch saw decent usage after Espartha's ban.
 
Psychic spam?
What psychic spam?
But the metagame is full of dark types this generation.
How is anyone suppossed to use psychic spam reliably?
After the Espathra and Chien-Pao bans the archetype looks something like this


Psychic Terrain boosts the power of Stored Power and Expanding Force, and block priority attacks against grounded users. This means that a 1% Polteageist or Armarouge can't be revenged killed by an attack like Dragonite's Extreme Speed, Kingambit's Sucker Punch or Scizor's Bullet Punch. To round up the team you usually see an extra form of hazard control such as Great Tusk, another setup sweeper such as Volcarona, or another breaker. Tera Fighting/Fairy Polteageist threatens Dark-types, with Focus Sash on it and Armarouge allowing them to take one Dark-type attack.
 
After the Espathra and Chien-Pao bans the archetype looks something like this


Psychic Terrain boosts the power of Stored Power and Expanding Force, and block priority attacks against grounded users. This means that a 1% Polteageist or Armarouge can't be revenged killed by an attack like Dragonite's Extreme Speed, Kingambit's Sucker Punch or Scizor's Bullet Punch. To round up the team you usually see an extra form of hazard control such as Great Tusk, another setup sweeper such as Volcarona, or another breaker. Tera Fighting/Fairy Polteageist threatens Dark-types, with Focus Sash on it and Armarouge allowing them to take one Dark-type attack.
I like using Phys :dragapult: on Psy spam for speed control and breaking power ( maybe even psychic fangs on it ), as well as a solid pivot that can't be revenged by sucker punch. Most people expect special variants so psychic fangs can surprise incoming clods with the right predictions. D darts is also quite scary to the new :walking wake:, if it's not running proto speed.
 
Do you prefer proto speed or proto attack/special attack on roaring moon/wake in the sun? My personal opinion is: Proto speed better. 100% of the time. No exception.
 
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Do you prefer proto speed or proto attack/special attack on roaring moon/wake in the sun? My personal opinion is: Proto speed better. 100% of the time. No exception.
It really depends on the meta: right now we had many offensive Mons releases in a row, Cinderace, Greninja, Wake, Leaves and Zoroark (fuck these decision, btw,why couldn't it be Alolan Muk?). The meta became very offensive and for sure you want the Speed vs those. If at some point bulky teams make a comeback, you will for sure prefer the offensive Stat boost.
 
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