Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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I'm surprised, amidst all the Tera controversy, there hasn't been much talk about banning Tera Blast as a middle ground.

I think a lot of the frustration from mons like Volc abusing the mechanic come from Tera Blast augmenting your coverage in ways that were never intended. Volc's been kept in check in past gens by things like Ttar or Heatran because it was never meant to have Ground coverage. removing TB from the equation still allows for strong defensive Teras, but you can't use it to surprise your opponent with a coverage move of literally any type.

and it doesn't remove creativity - ChainChomp could still Tera Fire to boost Fire Blast, for example, but a smart player will already be scouting for that move if they need to. removing TB just means you couldn't get utterly surprised by a move God never intended that mon to have.

(disclaimer: I'm a fan of Tera - just throwing this out for conversation.)
 
Volc's been kept in check in past gens by things like Ttar or Heatran because it was never meant to have Ground coverage.
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Tera Blast has been suggested multiple times and shut down because it has been considered a worse option than No Ban by even the vehement anti-tera crowd because it affects a minority of mons that use terastallization, and banning it accomplishes very little since it's often better to terastallize into the types of what coverage moves you do have instead of relying on a base 80 move with no other effects. It can be used to shore up holes in coverage but many mons simply don't run those sets.
 
I'm surprised, amidst all the Tera controversy, there hasn't been much talk about banning Tera Blast as a middle ground.
Tera Blast is way too much investment for an 80 BP move for it to be worth it. If your looking to counter a weakness Terastallizing defensively and attacking neutrally is enough in most cases. If your looking offensively, Why not terastallize into a type you already have to get Terastab.?
 
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pulsar512b

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I'm surprised, amidst all the Tera controversy, there hasn't been much talk about banning Tera Blast as a middle ground.

I think a lot of the frustration from mons like Volc abusing the mechanic come from Tera Blast augmenting your coverage in ways that were never intended. Volc's been kept in check in past gens by things like Ttar or Heatran because it was never meant to have Ground coverage. removing TB from the equation still allows for strong defensive Teras, but you can't use it to surprise your opponent with a coverage move of literally any type.

and it doesn't remove creativity - ChainChomp could still Tera Fire to boost Fire Blast, for example, but a smart player will already be scouting for that move if they need to. removing TB just means you couldn't get utterly surprised by a move God never intended that mon to have.

(disclaimer: I'm a fan of Tera - just throwing this out for conversation.)
definitely am pro-this sort of thing but worth noting that pre-gen 8 heatran was never a great volcarona check because yes, it completely shuts down many sets, but it can just tech in hp ground (not dissimilar to tera ground tera blast). so its really just gen 8 (and honestly even then people were often running flame body which doesn't do the job bc its just generally a Good Thing while flash fire Isn't, but that's beside the point). For sure in gen 8 just having this one thing that was almost 'i will handle you regardless of what set you run' helped a ton. (until people started doing safeguard nonsense and nothing is safe apparently). Also Tyranitar is a fair point, but it's easily worn down into bug buzz/z-bug range.

I feel like Volcarona is arguably like just inherently broken due to it's ability to bypass all it's answers with the correct sets, but tera moved it from 'arguably' to 'fairly clearly'. Revenge killing is an option, but it's natural resistance to a lot of priority hurts (and again, tera did not help with this!). In some ways, it reminds me of the awful mindgames around shift gear magearna in past gens, where you just Simply Have To Guess, or even smth like protean gren in previous gens (this one isn't nearly as bad and isn't sweeping you regardless of if it has the perfect coverage) . All of these are incredibly annoying to play around, and I don't think the dynamic of 'well i hope it isn't x' is at all healthy.
 
I don't disagree with any of you guys - the commitment to teraing one mon is a huge opportunity cost since every matchup is different, so you're essentially matchup fishing every game, way more than you would with HP. and I understand if people consider that inherently uncompetitive.

my thought was less about matchup fishing/the opportunity cost of TB and more that removing TB removes a lot of the "unexpectedly loses a mon because you didn't think their Pult would use a Fairy move" frustrations that people seem to have. I feel like if/when Tera gets tested again in the future, that's a better middle ground than something like Tera preview, which removes a lot of the positive, creative, interesting aspects of the mechanic.

it's often better to terastallize into the types of what coverage moves you do have instead of relying on a base 80 move with no other effects.
agreed - but at least without TB, you know a given mon's learnset, so you can scout around coverage moves as you normally would.

I feel like Volcarona is arguably like just inherently broken due to it's ability to bypass all it's answers with the correct sets, but tera moved it from 'arguably' to 'fairly clearly'.
well-said
 
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I feel like Volcarona is arguably like just inherently broken due to it's ability to bypass all it's answers with the correct sets, but tera moved it from 'arguably' to 'fairly clearly'. Revenge killing is an option, but it's natural resistance to a lot of priority hurts (and again, tera did not help with this!)
This is an "issue" with Volc every gen, it is always the cat and mouse game with its checks, yeah, tera makes it easier for Volc but realistically even if tera gets banned it will find ways to bypass its checks.
 
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I've been using Tera Electric in E-Terrain and the issue is that most teams have either a Dark-Type like Meow, Ting-Lu, Kingambit, etc. in the back, forcing you to go for hard reads to KO them + some tertiary mons like Scarf Gholdengo or Dragapult that will force it out and lead to Electric-Terrain turns being wasted. So far, I've found Iron Valiant and even Iron Jugulis to be the much stronger Pokemon in E-Terrain. Tera Psychc Psyblade might be the way though. The move is strong af already, 2HKOing Gholdengo in E-Terrain w/o Tera and the fact that it 2HKOes Corv means you don't really need to predict or even run Wild Charge, which is pretty fire.
you can solve the dark type dilemma with a”double whammy” specs valiant + band leaves.

save your Tera for the one that can thread the needle better.

I think the biggest issue is how useless pincurshin is outside of setting terrain. So it’s basically playing 5v6 with a sack up your sleeve.
 
my thought was less about matchup fishing/the opportunity cost of TB and more that removing TB removes a lot of the "unexpectedly loses a mon because you didn't think their Pult would use a Fairy move" frustrations that people seem to have. I feel like if/when Tera gets tested again in the future, that's a better middle ground than something like Tera preview, which removes a lot of the positive, creative, interesting aspects of the mechanic.
TB is heavily reliant on you actually Teraing that Pokemon, Which when you have five other Pokemon who could also benefit from Tera it's unlikely you'll Tera the same Pokemon everytime. When not Tera'd TB is legitimately almost completely useless and a waste of a moveslot that could've been used for something generally more useful.
 
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Off topic a bit, but wanted to slide this in since pokeaim was mentioned, bkc is also a great player to watch, particularly the coverage of the gen 4 Ubers tournament. He goes really in depth, sometimes too much, but it's a good way to understand the general thought process when playing. It's also a really good refresher to throw the rust off imo. Along with that is just practicing and getting familiar with the tier you want and building different teams.

Listening to his advice about how to play when behind I was able to win the semis for a draft league match, still proud about that one. So it's good stuff.
 
There's no good argument for banning tera blast. Majority of mons offensive mons don't use Tera blast, since tera blast is a low base power move that requires giving up moveslot dedicated for hazard/setup/status moves, and is complete useless if Tera has been used up already. It's only useful on offensive mons who have awful coverage, or have STAB moves with poor typing or base power. Mons that are overdependent on tera blast are usually not that good to begin with (how many of the current top mons use Tera blast right now?)

At the end of the day, banning tera blast won't make tera abusers less problematic.
 

awyp

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There's no good argument for banning tera blast. Majority of mons offensive mons don't use Tera blast, since tera blast is a low base power move that requires giving up moveslot dedicated for hazard/setup/status moves, and is complete useless if Tera has been used up already. It's only useful on offensive mons who have awful coverage, or have STAB moves with poor typing or base power. Mons that are overdependent on tera blast are usually not that good to begin with (how many of the current top mons use Tera blast right now?)

At the end of the day, banning tera blast won't make tera abusers less problematic.
This I agree with to a certain extent, because in reality Tera Blast kind of acts like Hidden Power on Steroids (Stronger by 10 BP) + STAB on the tera type you switch and it goes with either physical or special attack depending on which is highest. It is not the problem that put tera abusers over the top but it definitely doesn't help with pro-tera reasoning. Once HOME does come out I do believe restrictions on Team Preview (All Tera Types are shown) will be the choice that a majority of individuals go with (in my opinion)
 
Hisui Zoroark gets Trick. This mon is better and better the more I use it. Think of All the wake Diskussion, do you people realize how quickly Teams crumble if Blissey or Clodsire get tricked?
Also Scarf H-Zoroark has a nice speedtier aswell. You can catch Meowscarada aswell.

I just need to think of the best tera type for it as Normal or Ghost are bad. Has anybody tried Tera Fairy?
I've been using fairy since release, it's pretty good allowing you to catch dark types off guard.
 
Hisui Zoroark gets Trick. This mon is better and better the more I use it. Think of All the wake Diskussion, do you people realize how quickly Teams crumble if Blissey or Clodsire get tricked?
Also Scarf H-Zoroark has a nice speedtier aswell. You can catch Meowscarada aswell.

I just need to think of the best tera type for it as Normal or Ghost are bad. Has anybody tried Tera Fairy?
Tera Ground is fun. It stops Kingambit and Garganacl from immediately ending your spree and hits a lot of other stuff neutrally. Tera Fairy is also pretty good since it stops Walking Wake, who Zoroark just barely outspeeds.
 

Soiramio3000

Banned deucer.
Do we need to only focus on walking wake?
Why not include garganacl as well?

Anyway, walking wake is pretty centralizing, its best counter is water absorb clodsire.
 
Do we need to only focus on walking wake?
Why not include garganacl as well?

Anyway, walking wake is pretty centralizing, its best counter is water absorb clodsire.
Yes we do, we can only have one suspect going on at any given time and it's clear Wake is getting suspected so should be focusing on that really (unless something like another Volcarona situation comes up where everyone started worrying about it during the Pao suspect)
 

Pais

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Ngl I don't want to come here with some no-sense post but imagine making a council vote or a suspect on walking wake, a pokemon that for sure is a strong wallbreaker but that has a lot of limits, when there are still things like garganacl in the meta that are way more restrictive.
I'm not a great fan of the fact that around 3 months have been spent for banning pao and potentially less than a week for walking wake.
 

Roller K

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I'm glad there's going to be a suspect for Walking Wake, but I don't believe it's broken or overpowered.

First off, I'll say the only overwhelming set to me has been Choice Specs in the sun (Speed or SpA boost, both are great). Ideally, Torkoal sets up the sun, Walking Wake comes in, and it just breaks teams. However, those are ideal conditions that are usually not met. Torkoal must stay alive, Walking Wake can't come in on a strong hit or a Knock Off, it doesn't appreciate hazards, and it needs to lock into the correct move. (With another choice abuser in CB Chien-Pao, it could spam Tera Dark Crunch with ease, as very few Pokemon could come in on it. WW has to be wary of Fairy/Steel for Draco Meteor and Water immunity/Water/Grass for Hydro Steam.) WW might be able to come in once and get a kill or two, but a well-built team shouldn't lose more than one Pokemon each time WW enters. Also, if these conditions are not met, WW will either die off pretty quickly or fail to break its checks/counters.

WW has made the meta adapt to its presence, but it is not centralizing enough to harshly restrict teambuilding. There are a few sturdy counters to WW (Water Absorb Clodsire and Slowking are the main two who both have reliable recovery, unlike the Tauros formes) as well as many checks that don't require using a tera to potentially beat it. Sure, it overwhelms some walls, but it also gives way to new walls, and that's exactly what happens when a metagame develops.

A big thing I see going unmentioned is its speed tier. 348 Speed is not the same as 405 or even 369 (Jolly and Adamant Chien-Pao, respectively). Yes, it's a great speed tier that outpaces the two most common Pokemon in Great Tusk and Gholdengo, but it still leaves room for several OU threats. Not to mention, it has no priority, so a lot of fast or Choice Scarf Pokemon force WW out. Chien-Pao could just Ice Shard or Sucker Punch most faster threats, so it's quite a different dynamic.

On the occasion that WW doesn't have Choice Specs or Life Orb, it doesn't do enough damage to pose a serious "broken" threat. 125 SpA is solid, but most special walls can handle that pretty well and heal it off. If it's a WW team with no sun, then Hydro Steam is literally just Scald without the burn chance; it's not that strong. On that note, if WW is causing trouble in a game, Tera Fairy makes it a non-issue. Watch it go for Draco Meteor as you set up or kill it.

To sum it up, no set is even remotely insane besides Specs in the sun under ideal conditions, and a good team should have counter-measures against WW and Drought. It is meta-defining but not restrictive, and I think it should stay in OU unless someone finds a way to make it broken.
 

Mimikyu Stardust

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I know that a walking wake suspect is beyond confirmed, but i would like to add that imo, in this meta, the most broken pokemon is 100% volcarona.

Once you actually see its "checks" and "counters" ALL of them can be easily 1v1'd. Clod and Garg? Sub. Toxapex? Tera Grass, ground or just run psychic. Once it gets 1 quiver dance its VERY HARD to revenge kill, since its so fat that it can easily get more than one. You really need Cinderace, Ceruledge or Dragonite to have an almost guarantee counter, because every other pokemon than them gets stalled, walled, subbed, set up on or just chipped slowly until it can't beat it.

it also invalidates certain team styles way too easily like sun.
 
I know that a walking wake suspect is beyond confirmed, but i would like to add that imo, in this meta, the most broken pokemon is 100% volcarona.

Once you actually see its "checks" and "counters" ALL of them can be easily 1v1'd. Clod and Garg? Sub. Toxapex? Tera Grass, ground or just run psychic. Once it gets 1 quiver dance its VERY HARD to revenge kill, since its so fat that it can easily get more than one. You really need Cinderace, Ceruledge or Dragonite to have an almost guarantee counter, because every other pokemon than them gets stalled, walled, subbed, set up on or just chipped slowly until it can't beat it.

it also invalidates certain team styles way too easily like sun.
Let’s wait until heatran comes to SV
 
A big thing I see going unmentioned is its speed tier. 348 Speed is not the same as 405 or even 369 (Jolly and Adamant Chien-Pao, respectively). Yes, it's a great speed tier that outpaces the two most common Pokemon in Great Tusk and Gholdengo, but it still leaves room for several OU threats. Not to mention, it has no priority, so a lot of fast or Choice Scarf Pokemon force WW out. Chien-Pao could just Ice Shard or Sucker Punch most faster threats, so it's quite a different dynamic.
I don't really agree with this, since Walking Wake is perfectly capable of getting a Speed boost from Protosynthesis that can combo with Choice Specs or Life Orb. Do that and you outspeed everything while having the natural bulk to take an Extreme Speed or two, depending on hazards. It's not exactly an uncommon or unviable option for Wake either, as the sudden spike in sun teams shows. Unlike Chien-Pao or Chi-Yu actually, this thing is perfectly capable of outrunning everything including Dragapult, getting a Special Attack boost, not even being locked into one move if you go Life Orb. The sentiment that "Wake is only disgustingly strong on sun teams" might be true, but that still means there's a playstyle you can use where this thing's checks begin and end with Water Absorb Fairy Clod.

I know that a walking wake suspect is beyond confirmed, but i would like to add that imo, in this meta, the most broken pokemon is 100% volcarona.

Once you actually see its "checks" and "counters" ALL of them can be easily 1v1'd. Clod and Garg? Sub. Toxapex? Tera Grass, ground or just run psychic. Once it gets 1 quiver dance its VERY HARD to revenge kill, since its so fat that it can easily get more than one. You really need Cinderace, Ceruledge or Dragonite to have an almost guarantee counter, because every other pokemon than them gets stalled, walled, subbed, set up on or just chipped slowly until it can't beat it.

it also invalidates certain team styles way too easily like sun.
As ever, Volcarona is the matchup mon. Its Tera types can flip some bad matchups, but there is no Tera for it that flips all of them. As you can see from some of the posts here, there's a lot of discussion about which of its Tera types is best because there isn't one that can blanket check most of its usual enemies. It's one of the best users of Tera for sure, but I don't think it's quite at the threshold for needing tiering action. No matter what Tera it has, at least some of the Pokemon who check it normally still do.
 
Walking wake needs sun to be relevant and do actual damage to stuff like pex, slowking and water teras like garganacl and skeledirge (which are going to terstalize most of the time regardless of walking wake, they don't run water tera because of walking wake, if anything they are only more encouraged to do so). Sun isn't a consistent playstyle and has many solid answers; not to mention that walking wake, after clicking one draco meteor (pretty much forced to if the opponent has a bulky water) it gives mons like kingambit and volcarona a chance to set up which already threaten sun (especially kingambit with tera flying or fire). In fact, something that i see a lot is calcs showing how much specs draco in the sun with protosynthesis does to pex and other bulky waters, but this is not chi-yu you actually do get your special attack dropped and the game goes on from there. Outside of sun you are outsped by two of the most prominent mons in the meta, dragapult and valiant (which btw do what walking wake is capable of but with better options and speed) so an agility set is adviced. The problem with agility sets is that they lack the fire power of the specs sets that are so powerful under sun and are almost always reliant on booster energy to actually do damage. With that being said, agility sets work as nice late game cleaners once walking wake's common checks are damaged or removed from the game.
All in all, walking wake isn't bad whatsoever, under sun it's able to do massive damage if the opponent isn't prepared or isn't able to capitalize on the special attack drops; while outside of sun agility sets or even sub sets are able to create some magic to catch the opponent off guard or clean late game, perhaps even with teras like steel or fairy. If it took what felt like two months to ban chi-yu and even longer to ban chien pao but walking wake gets banned in less than a month it'll truly be hilarious.
 
I know that a walking wake suspect is beyond confirmed, but i would like to add that imo, in this meta, the most broken pokemon is 100% volcarona.

Once you actually see its "checks" and "counters" ALL of them can be easily 1v1'd. Clod and Garg? Sub. Toxapex? Tera Grass, ground or just run psychic. Once it gets 1 quiver dance its VERY HARD to revenge kill, since its so fat that it can easily get more than one. You really need Cinderace, Ceruledge or Dragonite to have an almost guarantee counter, because every other pokemon than them gets stalled, walled, subbed, set up on or just chipped slowly until it can't beat it.

it also invalidates certain team styles way too easily like sun.
Heheha! The so called counter don't counter it at all! LOL! If it's wisp volc dnite giga LOSES to it bc you just wisp him and continue to quiver. If volcarona is tera fire or water, you can bet cinderace won't beat it 1v1! And if its tera ground terablast, it just explodes ceruledge! Very balanced mon. And let's not talk about garga that forces all balance - bo to have at least 1 mon with covert cloak. The biggest problem we have rn is indeed walking wake!
 

YNM

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Can you expand on this with some examples (specifically non-passive ones)?
:dragapult: - It does what Pult has always done thanks to its great speed tier, and it can easily outspeed and threaten/revenge-kill the vast majority of Wake's sets (I don't really think that Booster Energy or Agility sets are that good since they lack the sheer power that makes the Specs set oppressive, and they're also not quite as popular).
:dragonite: - Its water resistance allows it to tank several non-Sun boosted Hydro Steams, and Multiscale prevents Dnite from getting OHKOd by Specs Draco. This means it can actually switch into Wake and use it as an opportunity to either set up and potentially sweep, or just use Roost to heal the damage and switch again later.
:iron-valiant: - Same stuff as Pult, Valiant is one of the most popular revenge-killers/speedsters in the tier, and can very easily kill Wake with a Moonblast.
:kingambit: - Kingambit can only take 1 hit from Wake without getting KOd but it can still threaten it with a Sucker Punch, especially in the late game.
:meowscarada: - Meowscarada's bulk sucks ass and yet Wake still fails to 2HKO it outside Sun with its Water STAB, and since it always outspeeds non Speed-boosted Wake sets it can very easily Knock its Specs off to survive potentially threatening hits and it can kill it the next turn, or simply OHKO it with Banded Flower Trick/Knock Off after some chip damage.
:azumarill: - Azu is a hard counter to Wake no matter what, so I don't really need to say much about it. Banded Play Rough can potentially OHKO it even at full health after it (Wake) Teras.
:roaring-moon: - Moon is by far the best check to Wake in the Sun, since it is usually EVd to get a Speed boost with Protosynthesis. It can easily switch into its non-Dragon moves and 2HKO it with Crunch or OHKO it with Dragon Claw, and it can Tera Steel (pretty popular) to tank Dracos coming its way.
:volcarona: - Yes, you can actually use Wake as an opportunity to set up and straight up win games with Volc, as long as you Tera to be neutral/resist Hydro Steam and Draco, like with Tera Fairy and Tera Steel. After a QD you outspeed Wake and are able to progressively get bulkier, so Wake's special attacks won't really matter.
:walking-wake: - This speaks for itself, Wake usually checks opposing Wakes.

These are only the offensive mons, you obviously also have other defensive checks such as Clod, Dondozo, Pex, Gastrodon and Slowking. Now I'm not saying that Wake isn't problematic or that it doesn't deserve to get suspected (I do agree on that), but some people out here are acting like it's the next Chi-Yu or something, when it's not even close to being as threatening as Pao, Espathra and sometimes even other common offensive threats in OU. Also, HO is inherently flawed at being able to tank hits from other strong offensive mons, so it's only natural for those teams to have to sac some of their teammates before being able to switch into Wake itself.
 
I do feel like that Outside of Sun teams or Sunny Day, Walking Wake cheeses Torkoal leads hard. For now, let's get rid of this Suicune look-alike, or at least suspect test it.
 
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