Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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What about Enamorus? I think the Therian form can be used as some kind of anti-powder defensive mon with Overcoat
IMO (despite me replying to the Lando post from earlier) I think its a bit too early to discuss mons only coming through HOME. They'll have their day in the spotlight but its not until a few months from now.
 
IMO (despite me replying to the Lando post from earlier) I think its a bit too early to discuss mons only coming through HOME. They'll have their day in the spotlight but its not until a few months from now.
i feel like lando-i especially lando-i with plot is an exception because we all know how thats gonna end but yeah i agree theorymonning is kinda pointless at the end of the day
 
what I like most about the idea of splitting the meta game into Tera and no-Tera is that then you’ll have objective data for which one becomes the main staple and the one that people prefer. It can always be reverted or changed back later if there is overwhelming support for one over the other.

this also gives insightful precedent for future generations, as it appears gamefreaks MO won’t change and there will be a new thing with every generation, rather than any attempt to improve the competitive aspect of the regular game mechanics.

the next time we get the new version of Megas/dynamax/Tera, then there will be something that the community has learned from.
Not sure if I agree with this - I imagine people will just default to the ladder that appears first on the dropdown menu, right? Or whatever is deemed ""more official."" Either that or they're going to be competing for space which seems not super great? IDK
 

Taka

I'm the truth only time will teach ya
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I disagree. I've found it to be very restrictive teambuilding wise, forcing tons of priority or bulk lest you be run down by the silly bird. on the gholdengo note i feel like its just too slow to actually be a threat, and considering the best removers are ones that have answers to it (great tusk/iron treads can kill it and corv can tank a move and u-turn) i think its completely fine for now (especially because of how hard it is to switch into great tusk especially, and iron treads can just volt switch)
I very much agree with this, Iron Bundle has such a threatening offensive presence, especially with booster energy spatk/ boots taunt sets. The teams that can switch in consistently to it must do so with double switches, considering its nigh unwallable bar Blissey and can really only be revenged by priority.

This might be controversial, but a mon that quite often forces tera as its counterplay seems unhealthy. In a metagame similar to our current one, where broken checks broken, and tera is often the main point letting teams (particularly offense teams) break past another one, having to give up tera is really unfortunate.

While there is counterplay, non choiced Iron Bundle can really make a lot of progress against teams, with Taunt/Encore helping it take on fatter teams, especially against mons like Clodsire (a typical switch in and something referenced in a post above to be a common defensive tera as tera normal/steel) who is complete fodder for taunt. Might I also mention that normal/steel Clodsire may deal with IB incredibly well, but it means that Palafin and other fightings such as Iron Valiant/Quaquaval are not longer hindered by Clodsire.

This issue is just made much worse by Tera. Double Stab on either ice or water turns most of these checks into non-checks, including bulkier variants of gholdengo/corv/steel tera ting-lu (I've even seen passho tera steel ting-lu to take this thing on haha, though thats irrelevant). Even against more offensive teams, the only mons in the metagame that are faster, bar other booster energy mons, are Barraskewda and Dragapult. Barraskewda is a rare lead, but Iron Bundle and Dragapult are definitely common leads. Tera Fairy sets very much shut down a lot of the counterplay for this mon, as it lets it take on lead Dragapult, who can't ohko it without specs Draco, and also prevents it from being revenged by priority mach punch/sucker punch from mons such as Chien Pao/Kingambit/Breloom.

Granted, 124 spatk is not incredibly broken, and it does often have to 2hko switchins rather than OHKO, meaning that defensive counterplay does exist, especially since defensive tera is an option. There are also mons that can pressure this one on offense, but these ones tend to be reliant on tera to check it rather than being able to check it raw. The progress this mon makes really is dependent on the set, as Taunt/Encore sets work wonders on bulkier variants, but do not have as much presence against more offensive teams, whereas Booster/Tera Blast/Choiced sets can heavily pressure offense. I also think that while tera does contribute to this mon being difficult to switch into, defensive tera is probably the best form of counterplay against this mon (besides just switching in Blissey/Scream Tail/Chansey).

I'm still torn on how I feel about this mon, because it is a very nice enabler of offense by being a pivot that can pressure stall while also not being deadweight in the Palafin matchup, but it has so many dominant traits about it.

What do y'all think?
 
I very much agree with this, Iron Bundle has such a threatening offensive presence, especially with booster energy spatk/ boots taunt sets. The teams that can switch in consistently to it must do so with double switches, considering its nigh unwallable bar Blissey and can really only be revenged by priority.

This might be controversial, but a mon that quite often forces tera as its counterplay seems unhealthy. In a metagame similar to our current one, where broken checks broken, and tera is often the main point letting teams (particularly offense teams) break past another one, having to give up tera is really unfortunate.

While there is counterplay, non choiced Iron Bundle can really make a lot of progress against teams, with Taunt/Encore helping it take on fatter teams, especially against mons like Clodsire (a typical switch in and something referenced in a post above to be a common defensive tera as tera normal/steel) who is complete fodder for taunt. Might I also mention that normal/steel Clodsire may deal with IB incredibly well, but it means that Palafin and other fightings such as Iron Valiant/Quaquaval are not longer hindered by Clodsire.

This issue is just made much worse by Tera. Double Stab on either ice or water turns most of these checks into non-checks, including bulkier variants of gholdengo/corv/steel tera ting-lu (I've even seen passho tera steel ting-lu to take this thing on haha, though thats irrelevant). Even against more offensive teams, the only mons in the metagame that are faster, bar other booster energy mons, are Barraskewda and Dragapult. Barraskewda is a rare lead, but Iron Bundle and Dragapult are definitely common leads. Tera Fairy sets very much shut down a lot of the counterplay for this mon, as it lets it take on lead Dragapult, who can't ohko it without specs Draco, and also prevents it from being revenged by priority mach punch/sucker punch from mons such as Chien Pao/Kingambit/Breloom.

Granted, 124 spatk is not incredibly broken, and it does often have to 2hko switchins rather than OHKO, meaning that defensive counterplay does exist, especially since defensive tera is an option. There are also mons that can pressure this one on offense, but these ones tend to be reliant on tera to check it rather than being able to check it raw. The progress this mon makes really is dependent on the set, as Taunt/Encore sets work wonders on bulkier variants, but do not have as much presence against more offensive teams, whereas Booster/Tera Blast/Choiced sets can heavily pressure offense. I also think that while tera does contribute to this mon being difficult to switch into, defensive tera is probably the best form of counterplay against this mon (besides just switching in Blissey/Scream Tail/Chansey).

I'm still torn on how I feel about this mon, because it is a very nice enabler of offense by being a pivot that can pressure stall while also not being deadweight in the Palafin matchup, but it has so many dominant traits about it.

What do y'all think?
I really like your point with terra, especially because of the fact that you can tera bundle to beat the tera mons that beat it. looking ahead in the metagame, having a mon that practically FORCES a defensive or offensive tera is incredibly unhealthy, and that's just how little counterplay we have against this bird. and for all you fellow delibird fans, believe me this is a win for us, i mean delibird as an uber?? amazing.
 
Not sure if I agree with this - I imagine people will just default to the ladder that appears first on the dropdown menu, right? Or whatever is deemed ""more official."" Either that or they're going to be competing for space which seems not super great? IDK
I think at least a decent portion of this issue is avoided if you put tera OU as a permanent OM under the OM drop down and define that standard OU is the official metagame from the start of the split.
 
I'd be hestitant on quickbanning any of these as it is right now. It's too soon for any of them imo. We just got rid Flutter, which opens up different special walls to be looked into that can take on the second tier of special attackers like ChuYi, Pult, Bundle and Gholdengo. I can also see some of them change their strategy and becoming too strong with adaptations (specifically roaring moon)

Admittedly, the defensive options are limited, and that might be a good indication that some of these are problematic. The most egregious ones are definitely Palafin and Bundle. Palafin specifically has the TauntBU set going around - I haven't faced it enough yet, but man is it a threat. It can 1v1 almost any defensive answer thanks to Taunt, and Tera Steel allows it to set up all over Amoongus' face.

I've already talked about bundle enough but tl;dr you either have to run subpar mons (in the current meta) or tera a water absorb mon defensively. It also taunts/encores through fat with a lot of ease.

Roaring moon has felt mostly fine so far, but I can see Electric Tera popping up as I see a lot of Dondozo and Corviknight as answers to Moon. However right now it's pretty easily stopped imo, it's very frail on the special side so it doesn't have the best time setting up, and it is stopped by 2 common defensive mons.

Similarly, Chien Pao is also stopped by a couple of mons, notably - again - Dondozo. Corv can also handle it but it's more iffy, and it's also pretty easily revenge'd by breloom, scizor or a first impression. Fairy/Fighting Tera on this thing is pretty scary though, as it can flip the table on your priority. Toxapex also sits on it if it doesn't have psychic fangs - which from my experience right now, is basically none of them.

Lastly Cyclizar I dont have any strong opinions on. It's pretty frail and easy to predict, at least against the opponents I've played to. Occasionally though, I mess up a predict and end up in a difficult situation and then I have a high chance of needing to sack something to break the sub. However, with Flutter gone I can definitely see Pult becoming super common again and it gets infiltrator which bypasses shed tail. Basically so far it feels like the counter to cyclizar isn't neccesarily in the builder, but with how you pilot the fights.
I wouldnt mind if this gets the boot though
 
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It's important to bring Wild Charge > Thunder Punch imo. It lets you switch in and beat Bulk Up Palafin 1v1.
Thank you for your reply.
I appreciate hearing improvement suggestions.

I just want to take a moment to explain my line of thinking on why I initially chose Thunder Punch instead of Wild Charge.
I was hoping Thunder Punch + Chip Damage from Hazards would be enough to faint Palafin.

My hope was to avoid running Wild Charge so that my Iron Hands didn’t take unnecessary recoil damage.
This is why I picked TP over WC.

However, I will admit, I haven’t been able to run any of the Damage Calculations.
You might be correct in saying Wild Charge is needed over Thunder Punch.

I am willing to give your suggestion a try.
It is a new generation and trying different Moves & Pokémon will be fun.
 
I personally think we should not consider banning any pokemon until Terastal is suspect tested.
I personally think we should not consider banning any pokemon until Terastal is suspect tested.
Not really, like at all.
Everything that's "broken with Tera" is just inherently broken 99% of the time. Chien-Pao doesn't suddenly stop being Weavile with Tough Claws and reliable Ice STAB because it can't use Tera.
If anything, you gimp a lot of defensive counterplay for other threats by banning Tera somehow Ghost/Fairy Spectrier with an actual movepool could be seen as "not broken" for not having boost to one of its STABs (which many people didn't actually utilize and often ran Normal or Dark).
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
its SO slept on bro it has an amazing speed tier, bulk, typing, volt switch, good enough power (64 evs in SpA and a life orb let thunder ko through defensive corv's leftovers), as well as bountiful options as a teralyzer.

also on another note: nothing this meta could throw at us could prepare us for whats coming

prepare yourselves

for him
View attachment 467635
Honestly, considering the general dearth of solid switch-ins to strong Ground-types and the fact that any Flying-type can run Tera Blast for good physical STAB (although it’s a waste of a moveslot if you Tera something else), this might actually be the gen where Lando-T gets banned.

(please let it be the gen where Lando-T gets banned)
 
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Taka

I'm the truth only time will teach ya
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Admittedly, the defensive options are limited, and that might be a good indication that some of these are problematic. The most egregious ones are definitely Palafin and Bundle. Palafin specifically has the TauntBU set going around - I haven't faced it enough yet, but man is it a threat. It can 1v1 almost any defensive answer thanks to Taunt, and Tera Steel allows it to set up all over Amoongus' face.
One answer I have found to BU Palafin is running PhysDef Slowtwins with this set:

Slowking/Slowbro @ Leftovers/Heavy Duty Boots/Colbur Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Chilly Reception
- Chilling Water
- Psychic/Future Sight
- Slack Off

The item can be modified to leftovers or something you need, but Chilling Water + a psychic water can usually take on BU Palafin 1v1, ignoring any egregious hax. Even with Future Sight, I've found that Slowking is able to take on Palafin disregarding any tera shenanigans.

Similarly, Chien Pao is also stopped by a couple of mons, notably - again - Dondozo. Corv can also handle it but it's more iffy, and it's also pretty easily revenge'd by breloom, scizor or a first impression. Fairy/Fighting Tera on this thing is pretty scary though, as it can flip the table on your priority. Toxapex also sits on it if it doesn't have psychic fangs - which from my experience right now, is basically none of them.
In practice Corv is super risky. Life Orb SD is not that rare in this metagame, and it definitely requires more support and hazard removal, but with Tera included it OHKOs Corviknight.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 359-424 (89.7 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO


One mon I've found absolutely incredible in the metagame so far is Assault Vest Iron Hands. With SpDef and HP investment, it avoids the 2hko from non tera Specs Iron Bundle Hydro, and can avoid the 2hko from tera water Hydro completely with a Careful nature. It also lives +2 Life Orb Ice Spinner from Chien Pao, can take on non BU Palafin, and has decent offensive presence thanks to Volt Switch + great base attack.
 
To add on my discovery of Wugtrio packing Throat Chop, sure being able to outspeed much of the meta is one thing, but to be able to outspeed and stop a Skeledirge in it's tracks with Throat Chop, which also hits it super effectively? THat'd be something that could maybe be worth exploring and maybe getting a niche in UU
 

Taka

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To add on my discovery of Wugtrio packing Throat Chop, sure being able to outspeed much of the meta is one thing, but to be able to outspeed and stop a Skeledirge in it's tracks with Throat Chop, which also hits it super effectively? THat'd be something that could maybe be worth exploring and maybe getting a niche in UU
It doesn't really do this better than other mons. For one, a non stab Throat Chop is a roll to 2hko Skeledirge .

252+ Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Chandelure: 190-224 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO

Also, Skeledirge is mostly a bulky defensive mon, and other pokemon do this role better. Additionally, Skeledirge commonly teras to Fairy, and even if it doesn't tera, there are a plethora of better water answers, right?
 
Not sure if I agree with this - I imagine people will just default to the ladder that appears first on the dropdown menu, right? Or whatever is deemed ""more official."" Either that or they're going to be competing for space which seems not super great? IDK
Could just be an additional sub-menu that pops up after you select OU.

Options:

  1. STANDARD
  2. WEENIE HUT JUNIOR
 
It also packs Triple Dive, which hits 3x 30 for a total of 90 BP and also Liquidation, both moves hitting Skeledirge hard (if you're greedy enough to try and tank the upcoming Torch Song if it doesn't OHKO Skeledirge)
 
Accuracy should never be part of an argument for a mon being balanced. Past that, many offensive mons fall into KO range with just a little chip, which can easily be achieved with hazard support. And remember Iron Bundle is the second fasted unboosted mon in OU right now. As for supposed defensive checks, Corv has to run high spdef investment to avoid a hydro pump 2HKO with rocks up and loses to choice sets, Gholdengo is vulnerable to scarf (and without lefties is prone to being put into 2HKO pump range). Garg is 2HKOd by freeze dry into hydro pump on any non choice set and dies to specs pump. As for using tera into ice resist, being forced to use the mechanic to not be so pressured by it (and thus limiting options) is actually a great case for Iron Bundle being over centralizing.
I think consistency does play a part in a pokemons viability, if corviknight (one of the most common pokemon right now) comes in healthy on your bundle and you need to weaken it for something else to come in and 20% of the time you made NO PROGRESS thats a free u-turn or a free defog or a free body press, and corv will still come in later and do over 50% with press, it gets 1v1d.
Not only that but every time bundle comes in you are taking 25% so you can't also say no priority takes care of it, kingambit easily comes in to revenge kill or even setup, weakened enough palafin jet punch even resisted can do over 25%, sucker punch from Chien-pao does over half, bulky scizor literally comes in and 1v1's it and does 45 with BP. And running boots also just opens you up to getting outsped by the scarf/EB pokemon. Bundle is not coming in and 6-0ing teams its coming in taking maybe 1 kill and weakening another MAXIMUM in its good matchups, at worst it could very well just do nothing due to its limited movepool, or have a shit matchup and get chip.
 
In practice Corv is super risky. Life Orb SD is not that rare in this metagame, and it definitely requires more support and hazard removal, but with Tera included it OHKOs Corviknight.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 359-424 (89.7 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Oh yeah definitely, Corv is super iffy but I felt it was worth mentioning since its prettt easy to slot in a corv on your team tbh

Alao good call on the slowtwins.
 
Granted, 124 spatk is not incredibly broken, and it does often have to 2hko switchins rather than OHKO, meaning that defensive counterplay does exist, especially since defensive tera is an option. There are also mons that can pressure this one on offense, but these ones tend to be reliant on tera to check it rather than being able to check it raw. The progress this mon makes really is dependent on the set, as Taunt/Encore sets work wonders on bulkier variants, but do not have as much presence against more offensive teams, whereas Booster/Tera Blast/Choiced sets can heavily pressure offense. I also think that while tera does contribute to this mon being difficult to switch into, defensive tera is probably the best form of counterplay against this mon (besides just switching in Blissey/Scream Tail/Chansey).

I'm still torn on how I feel about this mon, because it is a very nice enabler of offense by being a pivot that can pressure stall while also not being deadweight in the Palafin matchup, but it has so many dominant traits about it.

What do y'all think?
I personally think if we're allowing tera in the meta then we should also accept that using tera to counter certain mons (esp if your tera is a commonly used tera) is a legitimate argument against and for their viability (not talking about bundle in this statement just in general). I just don't like the argument of "if you're forced into using tera to beat something then that pokemon is broken" as no, that is not true, that is just the counter measure that you chose while you were building your team that were amongst the other counter measures that exist in the format. Which in no surprise to anyone is the most flexible counter measure as all 6 of your pokemon can use it to beat what you need to beat.
 

Finchinator

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Why is Garganacl there?
It's pretty hard to kill. Right now, it is firmly in the "let's keep an eye on this, but we're not close to any action at all" territory -- it is a really novel Pokemon that has disturbed a lot of the more flimsy teams that cannot break it off-the-bat, so we just want to make sure it does not spiral out of control. I do not think it is broken right now and I do not think it will get banned anytime soon, but we definitely discussed it a fair amount and I wanted to be transparent about that fact. It is important you guys know we are keeping tabs on the entire metagame and trying to find the best routes forward, even if it means some discussions do not lead to action (most do not!).
 
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