Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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1LDK

Que vida ingrata
is a Top Team Rater
Also, since i finally have time to play, do you guys have any whacky idea i could try, i wanna try Choice Scarf Great Tusk for the sole porpouse to make non Air Balloon Gohldengo seethe (and also see if he can be a nice cleaner, i think tusk has great potential for a TON of roles)

Great Tusk @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 132 Atk / 124 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Headlong Rush
- Close Combat
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
plan is simple, outspeed Goldiboy with your 450 speed, shit on him with headlong rush, and the 124 spd means i always survive 1 non adaptability non +2 attack, i know this sounds bad but please dont be too mad at me

What are some viable snow setters?
Literally Slowking + Chilly Reception (a move that makes Slowking tell a bad joke, snow starts and lets him switch out inmideatly) and theres also Obamasnow but i dont think he is very viable rn
 
Has anyone tried full weather teams? I've run into very few of them which I find interesting because leading up to Gen 9 I thought weather would be a lot more common, since most Gen 8 setters are present aside from the Ninetales lines. I reckon it's due to the limited number of weather abusers we have due to the dex cut, as well as a bunch of moves being cut (RIP Flip Turn Barraskewda)

So far the only one I've tried out a bunch is sun

:Torkoal:
Torkoal is honestly surprisingly good. Being able to compress spinning, weather setting and being a decent physical tank is pretty nice, though it gets worn down really quickly (Why doesn't this get Slack Off man). I've mostly been running Rocks Spin Lava Plume Yawn, though Wisp is also a cool option

:Leafeon: :Scovillain: :Lilligant:
The selection of Chlorophyll users available right now is not that great. Scovillain is probably the best of the bunch, with STAB Fire moves boosted by sun, as well as the option to go mixed thanks to its equal Attack and Special Attack stats. It also has decent coverage, though does sort of need LO to really smash it's way through walls which combined with its Fire type makes it really prone to getting worn down. That said, its STAB combination is really good and adding on Stomping Tantrum, almost nothing can safely switch in to this thing.

252+ SpA Scovillain Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire in Sun: 187-222 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Scovillain Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire in Sun: 243-289 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Scovillain Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clodsire: 226-268 (48.7 - 57.7%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Leafon is kinda cool, I talked about it before. It is all in all a worse Scovillain, however it can nab some nice surprise KOs with Terablast Fire. Being pure grass also means it can check Palafin - though this seems like it wont be a neccesity soon. It's more easily walled than Scovillain even with Tera Fire, due to it losing Knock Off this gen meaning it cannot touch Skeledirge or Dragapult at all :(

Lilligant seems like the third best chlorophyll user but at this point you're just looking for the ability and not for actually useful mons. Sleep Powder QD is cool though, and again it can Tera Fire or something else for coverage.

:chi-yu: :ceruledge: :iron moth: :rotom-heat:
Fire spammers are also something to consider for Sun teams. There's not a whole lot of them this gen though, and theres 2 fully evolved mons that get eruption, so that's a shame. One of these mons is Torkoal btw, the other one is Camerupt. The best one is definitely Chi-Yu because, well...

252 SpA Choice Specs Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey in Sun: 428-504 (59.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...Yeah Specs is really, really strong. It can afford to go Specs on sun teams since there's other ways of speed control. Also a good switchin to Gholdengo.

Haven't tried out Ceruledge, Iron Moth, or Rotom-Heat yet on sun but on paper they look good. Iron Moth can run Agility Fiery Dance to clean up weakened teams - Though when I've faced it, it seems a bit underwhelming. Ceruledge is probably the best physical fire mon but it's reliance on Sash or Weakness Policy is problematic on an archetype that has some trouble with hazards. Rotom Heat is a sun abuser that also provides a ground immunity which is very nice, though it only gets Overheat so it's not a good sweeper, but more of a utility mon.

There might be others but honestly just run Chi Yu it's cracked as fuck under sun.

:roaring-moon: :slither-wing: :Great-Tusk: :brute-bonnet: :sandy-shocks: :scream-tail:
Sun got an unfair amount of new toys this gen compared to other weathers: the paradox mons. Not all of these fit well on sun teams though. Great Tusk is fantastic, being a sun abuser that can also spin hazards is absolutely incredible, and under sun it hits like a freight train. Slither Wing is excellent speed control with a massive First Impression, as well as STAB CC, Fire Boosted Flare Blitz (Or even flame charge) and utility options with WoW, U-turn and Morning Sun. Some others have talked about Sandy Shocks before me but I've been running a Specs set which hits incredibly hard. It also gets rocks and spikes. Roaring Moon is fine on sun, but honestly it's a bit of an awkward fit. At least I haven't managed to get a build together that fits Moon. Finally Bonnet and Scream Tail are a bit underwhelming on sun but that's got less to do with sun and more to do with the mons themselves. Though I might give Scream Tail another go, it does have some good wishpassing capabilities.

:Garchomp: :Hatterene:
These 2 mons aren't specifically sun related but I want to mention them anyway. Garchomp is still Garchomp, it's typing is incredible, it can benefit from sun to hit Corviknight hard, or provide a pivot with rocks for it's team. It even gets spikes this gen. Hatterene is honestly, surprisingly nice. I've been running Air Balloon and it completely blanks the common Clodsire sets, Garchomp sets that only run STABs, trades with Glimmora without risking hazards being set, and some other cool stuff like being an emergency switch in to taunt, spore, fighting moves and other stuff. Mystical fire is also boosted by sun which can nab some nice OHKOs on random (steel) mons that don't expect it.

Overall sun is quite cool, but rn is held back by the heavy presence of Bundle and Palafin. It does decently well into Offense teams, though needs some careful positioning around certain mons like Quaquaval, Great Tusk, Chi-Yu, and others. I'm looking forward to running this in a meta without palafin or bundle (assuming they get banned which seems rather likely as of right now)
 
I have tried Toadscruel along with two wish supporters (Sylveon, Fire Tera Vaporeon) and found the exact same thing. Absolutely dumb 4MSS to the point of dehabilitating any possible sets. Mycelium Might is crazy good vs Gholdengo (you can just spore it lmao) but everywhere else its kinda bad because you're negative priority.

The damning factor is the bulk. Grass Ground is a truly relentlessly bad typing and it has worse bulk than Torterra. IMO there's 0 way to make this mon good, especially because for all that utility (taunt especially) its NEGATIVE PRIORITY. You can run 3 attack spore which ended up being okay but even then you need rapid spin, you want knock off, you want dual stabs. Maybe drop spore altogether but now you can't do anything to corv.

Rough deal. Doubt it'll find a spot anywhere near OU.
The best use I have found for Toedscruel has been as an anti-hazard solution against glimmora/gholdengo hazard stack. You dont actually proc the toxic debris since you are using special moves or rapid spin, and you outspeed and 2hko most gholdengo. But this set has been useful in keeping hazards away. And I'll say that the slow spore does guarantee a free turn, so that can be good. Annhilape and Dragapult both spin block against this, but obviously dont like spore. One thing I will say is that I have not used Great Tusk or Iron Treads, and I think those could potentially also beat the glimmora/gholdengo combo if they run knock off and some speed.

Toedscruel @ Leftovers
Ability: Mycelium Might
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 80 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
- Giga Drain/Knock Off
- Earth Power
- Spore
- Rapid Spin

This is the set I've been using. evs to outspeed max speed base 90s, 80 spa to try and secure 2hko on palafin with giga drain, with the rest in hp. you could run knock off instead of giga drain but you lose your ability to beat some water types, and the healing is nice. You do need this slot to be an attacking move that hits gholdengo, or its air balloon set will still spinblock. The other moves are mandatory, you need earth power and rapid spin to take on glimmora+gholdengo, and you need spore so that you arent as much of a sitting duck to set up on.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I wouldn't even want to call Tinkaton's bulk a "good" bulk, tbh



It's a matter of staying consistant with the policies, I don't see why it's an "awful" argument. The move is clearly why people ever consider using Ape in the first place. This goes back to the Last Respect discussion that I don't really want to start as it is not worth discussing anymore, but you get the point.
Bro if you're gonna quote me at least come with sense, understanding and logic.
 
In Last Respects case, it seems clear the move is broken and not Houndstone itself. But in order to ban the move instead, we need to prove it is broken first. It may seem obvious, but since Houndstone is the only pokemon that gets access to it, it's impossible to prove whether Last Respects is broken or not, which is why we have to wait for Basculeigon to be released so the council can reconsider the Houndstone ban.
No, it is not impossible to prove that any pokemon having access to a 200-300 base power move with absolutely 0 drawbacks bar being immuned by normal types is fucking absurdly uncompetitive and clearly not meant for 6v6 singles lmaooo tf
 
No, it is not impossible to prove that any pokemon having access to a 200-300 base power move with absolutely 0 drawbacks bar being immuned by normal types is fucking absurdly uncompetitive and clearly not meant for 6v6 singles lmaooo tf
You're missing the point, we all know last respects is broken, because we’re not dumb.

to Ban something you need hard game evidence, all the game evidence we have right now just proves houndstone is broken because it’s the only mon with the move. If it’s evidence of something else using the move we can ban last respect instead, but that evidence doesn’t exist right now.

Its like a murder getting found not guilty because while we all are pretty sure they did it, it’s no actual proof that they did it the judge, both lawyers, the jury all know he’s guilty it’s just no REAL evidence.
 
Isnt snow worst that hail???
I mean one of the good things was the chip wich was great for aurora veil ho + the amount of weakness ice types have make the +1 Defence useless. Also whitout the fossil (artozolt mainly) there's no one hail rush viable. Cetitan is the most strong of the bunch but this thing suffer againt the unaware mons.
 
I really don't understand why it was necessary to give its utility moves negative priority.
Probably because VGC/BSS (aka the formats GF very obviously "balance" around) have no Sleep Clause, making a base 100 speed Spore user a prospective nightmare. The fastest a sleep abuser has gotten in the past while still being viable is (iirc) Chlorophyll Venusaur using Sleep Powder, which is still a 75% accuracy move dependent on having a favorable weather active.
 
Oh u mean bulk up taunt fodder
i’m really interested to see how defensive waters adapt without scald. vape is a great example of a mon who will need to solidify its respective niche or be doomed to complete irrelevancy

granted, vape was NU last gen, but washtom, the slowtwins, suicune, pex (but less so)… we might end up late gen with a lot of fini and pelipper and not a lot else

gamefreak making chilling water literally the cold, dead scald replacement is funny but idk if that’s gonna cut it
 
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Fun fact about tinkaton
Lore wise she likes to use Gigaton Hammer to throw rocks to Corviknights, and thats why Corvi cant be used as a Taxi, yet comp wise...

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 192-227 (48 - 56.7%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is gen 8 standard OU Corv btw)

and this is basically thanks to sd, heres the non SD calc

252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 97-114 (24.2 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

God i love poke inconsistencies
Actually...

If I were in AAA and were to fit Steelworker onto my Tinkaton, run Adamant Life Orb with Swords Dance and Tera Steel, Corviknight would be OHKO'd by Gigaton Hammer after Stealth Rock damage.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Steelworker Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer (213 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 359-422 (89.7 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I don't know about you, but I think they were onto something.
 
Literally Slowking + Chilly Reception (a move that makes Slowking tell a bad joke, snow starts and lets him switch out inmideatly) and theres also Obamasnow but i dont think he is very viable rn
I’ve been running abomasnow and it’s been quite a decent iron bundle check
It also gets veil, switches into quake like nobody’s business, and has surprisingly strong blizzards and energy balls
Abomasnow @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Snow Warning
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Energy Ball
- Earth Power
- Aurora Veil

I’ve also been toying with the idea of terra fairy or water for fighting or fire types respectively, though it doesn’t terra much if at all
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
Probably because VGC/BSS (aka the formats GF very obviously "balance" around) have no Sleep Clause, making a base 100 speed Spore user a prospective nightmare. The fastest a sleep abuser has gotten in the past while still being viable is (iirc) Chlorophyll Venusaur using Sleep Powder, which is still a 75% accuracy move dependent on having a favorable weather active.
Which is pretty frustrating because they could have just, you know, not given it Spore. Hell, they could have removed Spore from the game altogether (not undeserved), re-added it next gen, and then they’d have an excuse for why this one mushroom Pokémon in particular doesn’t get the move all the other ones get.
 
Also, since i finally have time to play, do you guys have any whacky idea i could try, i wanna try Choice Scarf Great Tusk for the sole porpouse to make non Air Balloon Gohldengo seethe (and also see if he can be a nice cleaner, i think tusk has great potential for a TON of roles)

Great Tusk @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 132 Atk / 124 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Headlong Rush
- Close Combat
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
plan is simple, outspeed Goldiboy with your 450 speed, shit on him with headlong rush, and the 124 spd means i always survive 1 non adaptability non +2 attack, i know this sounds bad but please dont be too mad at me


Literally Slowking + Chilly Reception (a move that makes Slowking tell a bad joke, snow starts and lets him switch out inmideatly) and theres also Obamasnow but i dont think he is very viable rn
Scarf Tusk is pretty decent. +SpE Booster Energy was already pretty good on Tusk, and while that comes with the benefit of freely choosing moves, Scarf Tusk is a permanent boost. +SpE Tusk is also one time whereas Scarf Tusk isn't.

Really though, the main reason Scarf Tusk worked so well for me is because it would catch people off-guard.
 
As a mostly VGC player, I'm curious. Why do you prefer Smogon Singles over VGC? In therms of VGC, I like the quick pace, the concept of making a team where not everyone shows up, and the offensive side of it. There's also arguable more creative ideas and a chance to make support pokemon more useful. That's my opinion, I'm not objective about what I said. Why do you prefer singles?
 
As a mostly VGC player, I'm curious. Why do you prefer Smogon Singles over VGC? In therms of VGC, I like the quick pace, the concept of making a team where not everyone shows up, and the offensive side of it. There's also arguable more creative ideas and a chance to make support pokemon more useful. That's my opinion, I'm not objective about what I said. Why do you prefer singles?
To me, singles feels less RNG based, as in, in any given turn, it feels like there is more of an object correct play you can make. Since games are also typically more drawn out, singles just feels like every game is completely in the hands of the better player.
 
As a mostly VGC player, I'm curious. Why do you prefer Smogon Singles over VGC? In therms of VGC, I like the quick pace, the concept of making a team where not everyone shows up, and the offensive side of it. There's also arguable more creative ideas and a chance to make support pokemon more useful. That's my opinion, I'm not objective about what I said. Why do you prefer singles?
I feel like the only reason why I play singles instead of VGC is because that's what you play in the games, and it's what I'm most familiar with.
 
As a mostly VGC player, I'm curious. Why do you prefer Smogon Singles over VGC? In therms of VGC, I like the quick pace, the concept of making a team where not everyone shows up, and the offensive side of it. There's also arguable more creative ideas and a chance to make support pokemon more useful. That's my opinion, I'm not objective about what I said. Why do you prefer singles?
Honestly, not everyone showing up is the worst part of VGC and why I don't think I would ever play it. I do like that some Pokemon are more useful and I'm not necessarily against double battles (I also just don't like having to build a team around them), but Pokemon for me is 100% about the Pokemon and having fun using my whole team so it's an instant no for me personally.
 
gotta say, gholdengo has to be on the radar eventually. good as gold is just way too strong - effectively neutralising removal is not healthy. i foresee it heavily centralising & stagnating the meta once it settles & the more pressing issues have been taken care of.

furthermore, tera also has to go eventually. far too powerful, enabling literally ANY offensive mon to bypass ANY of its would-be checks, all whilst providing either triple stab or adaptability is insane. not to mention, unlike zmoves (the nearest analogue i can think of in terms of bypassing checks), you can't even read which mon will be using it because it's every single one of them, AND it persists past one turn - both overpowered & uncompetitive. booster energy is also problematic & will continue to dominate the meta until either it is banned, or normalised through bans of the worst abusers.
 
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gotta say, gholdengo has to be on the radar eventually. good as gold is just way too strong - effectively neutralising removal is not healthy. i foresee it heavily centralising & stagnating the meta once it settles & the more pressing issues have been taken care of.
It is on the radar now. The council will talk about it this weekend. I don't think they'll do anything about it yet, but maybe at a later time.
 
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