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Resource SV OU Viability Ranking Thread [ UPDATE: POST #751 ]
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
- Status
It checks Tusks and Dnite while providing FS and a strong BP. With Tera Fighting it can pivot into Pao, Moon, Tusks, Cinder, Gambit, etc. it is heavily reliant on Tera tho to fulfill its role but it does the job.
Why did Talonflame drop? Didn't it keep up as an alternative Defogger? The tier doesn't have so many options, so I thought we'd see more of it. Thank you the council for putting again so much effort into the VR thread.
from C to D
Edit: sorry I just realized somebody else asked this. Please feel free to delete this comment. Thanks anyway.
I know most of the questions above are for specific mons so I'll throw in this general question to see the bigger picture and hope to explain most of the changes in the vr. Aside from the minor inaccuracies of the previous vr and the ban on chiyu ape and cyclizar, what are like the other changes that caused several change in the rankings?
Chienpao seems benefited from chiyu and ape ban. Tinglu drop coz of chiyu too. Espathra drop might be coz of cyclizar. But how about the others? I assume there is a new trend or something that I am not aware.
Edit: just read tht Chienpao is the new meta which makes sense and Iron hands dropping coz of cyclizar ban since its good with screens.
Isn't great tusk weak to its ice stab though? But yeah spin and like tera fairy play rough great tusk is there and nice against sucker punch or if chienpao is choicelocked.
So yeah, aside from the Chien-pao being a new meta mon, what are the other general trends that caused the shifts in the vr?
Ty in advance.
Chienpao seems benefited from chiyu and ape ban. Tinglu drop coz of chiyu too. Espathra drop might be coz of cyclizar. But how about the others? I assume there is a new trend or something that I am not aware.
Edit: just read tht Chienpao is the new meta which makes sense and Iron hands dropping coz of cyclizar ban since its good with screens.
Isn't great tusk weak to its ice stab though? But yeah spin and like tera fairy play rough great tusk is there and nice against sucker punch or if chienpao is choicelocked.
So yeah, aside from the Chien-pao being a new meta mon, what are the other general trends that caused the shifts in the vr?
Ty in advance.
Both are on the passive and one dimensional side while facing stiff competition. Sand is just not too great now and other SR Grounds are more common otherwise while Avalugg tends to be limited to more reactionary, bulky teams which do not inspire many right now.
I mean the metagame is still in its infancy; we are seeing pretty big changes on a regular basis, so naturally perception is changing. Not everything needs a concrete reason based on a ban. We have seen new cores and trends on ladder and in tournaments pretty frequently.
scorbunnys
Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
Why didn't Umbreon rise at all? Saw some support of it rising so that's why I'm asking.
Also, why is Maushold still ranked at all? Same applies for Lokix.
Would like to know what made zard rise too, mb if I'm asking way too much
Also, why is Maushold still ranked at all? Same applies for Lokix.
Would like to know what made zard rise too, mb if I'm asking way too much
Been a while since I posted something substantial and I wanna share some metagame analysis! And then some noms (I've been cooking)
GREAT TUSK
Uuh Great tusk is on like 90% of serious teams fr (75% usage in SPL week 1). It's the only viable hazard removal on 90% of teams. Quaquaval can be spin blocked by dragapult/bulky gholdengo and hates giving up a moveslot for rapid spin. Iron treads is a sufficient spinner but lets in great tusk for free, and letting great tusk in for free is a massive flaw that otherwise viable pokemon have to wrestle with (tinkaton, iron hands, etc) Great tusk is just the best hazard removal and its not even close, and with how many good hazard setters we have, almost every team is gonna need some removal. You can say "just run boots bro" but boots spam is only an option on super defensive teams, offense needs some speed/power which is difficult to provide when everybody has boots on.
So now that I've briefly explained why great tusk is S rank and #1 usage, let's see what effect that has on the meta.
Offensive great tusk is a beast to try and switch into. Daddy Lando-t is not here to save us from ground/fighting 120 bp stabs combined with knock off. As far as soft checks go, we are pretty much stuck with washtom (and mowtom)/corv as your most common options. Water Tauros was raised to B- recently to reflect its ability to kind of soft check great tusk alongside kingambit/pao and I'm glad its getting that recognition too. Slowbro is also solid and rose appropriately. There are some other fringe options that barely avoid a 2hko like max defense gastro and slowking, but they're very shaky:
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 181-214 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(keeping leftovers in that calc bc gastro has sticky hold so lefties won't get knocked off)
I think this is reflected in the SPL usage stats, rotom-wash and corv had high usage at #4 and #6 respectively. So with that in mind, I've been testing some anti-meta techs to take advantage of the sparse few ground resists that teams are forced to carry to check the omnipresent great tusk.
Magnezone
I think the first set is a cool way to trap kingambit as well as the usual corv, although you lose out on a lot of initial power+ maybe volt turn action. First set's speed evs hits 200 to outpace adamant max speed kingambit/azu/iron hands. Magnezone naturally has great matchups vs lots of common fat mons like toxapex, garganacl, corviknight, dondozo, and hatterene. Cloak lets you become a garg check, but watch out for curse eq sets. Great tusk also has poor sdef, so the most common ground type doesn't wanna switch into your flash cannon.
252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 216-255 (58.2 - 68.7%)
252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 216-255 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
The fatter grounds like clodsire and ting-lu will take on the first set more easily, but specs is strong and can punish even clodsire:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Steel Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 208-246 (44.9 - 53.1%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Clodsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Steel Magnezone: 152-180 (54 - 64%)
Paired with some strong u-turn mons to take advantage of other special walls like blissey, you can form a real fat busting volturn core.
There's loads of mons that can take advantage of corviknight being trapped and eliminated: Meowscarada, Roaring Moon, Dragonite, Kingambit, Iron Valiant, Scizor, and of course Great Tusk. I've used magnezone with cb dragonite and cb meow to decent success, and I think there's a lot of potential in some old zone classics. Here's a replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1771868095-7gjuz0ccgr1zmme7p1i0wjdvijp10qqpw
You can see in this replay that once Corviknight is trapped, tera normal cb dnite espeed claims everything else.
Of course, trapping kingambit isn't as easy but can also be done, and prominent ghost types like dragapult and gholdengo can flex even harder with gambit gone. I'll give an honorable mention to Magneton which can also trap corv while holding scarf and having a much better speed tier being able to revenge kill unboosted iron valiant and being faster than cinderace, but will struggle to do much vs kingambit and is much weaker in general. I would like it a lot more if it was faster than chien pao, but alas it hits only 393 and pao is at 405. I think magnezone's potential is high and its pretty unexplored rn, so I would support a rise to C+ at least. I think it belongs in B personally, but we can take baby steps with this one.
Now I'd like to show another under the radar great tusk check, much more solid than corv or rotoms:
Slither Wing
This mon resists ground+fighting, has reliable recovery, can cripple with wisp and give a slow u-turn off of tusk. It is sturdy af vs even CB tusk, and does well vs other physical threats:
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Slither Wing: 147-174 (39.3 - 46.5%)
252+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Slither Wing: 147-174 (39.3 - 46.5%) (0 allies fainted tbf)
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Slither Wing: 174-205 (46.5 - 54.8%)
252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Slither Wing on a critical hit: 114-135 (30.4 - 36%)
Chien pao's matchup is much shakier than the rest, but keep in mind your first impression will OHKO and thus force it out, allowing you to get a morning sun. If you choose to go close combat, the attack investment can 2hko sdef corv after rocks:
88+ Atk Slither Wing Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 189-223 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Personally I like first impression and max defense, I feel that slither wing should just focus on spreading burns and giving slow u-turns to your wallbreakers. Common mons like toxapex, skeledirge, volcarona etc will fully wall you even if you use CC. Tera Water is great for Fire Blast LO Chain chomps, Cinderaces, Rain threats, etc. I would rank it a little higher than Tauros-Water and bump it up to B to reflect its reliable recovery and wisp access over it.
So now that we've taken advantage of Corviknight and shown another solid ground check, let's take advantage of rotom-wash (and to a lesser extent rotom-mow)
ARBOLIVA
I know this mon is unranked but seriously this thing is a hidden gem. I was blown away by how good it is in practice. First I'll explain why arboliva is anti-meta at all, then why this set is better than specs, and finally some replays.
The key here is the grass/normal typing. I was on the same page as everybody else at first that grass/normal typing isn't great, but I've come around on this recently. A grass type special attacker is very well positioned rn bc it can switch into rotom-w and not care about wisps. The only other viable special attacking grass types are amoongus and toedscruel, and toedscruel doesn't even resist hydro pump. Amoongus on the other hand is pretty passive outside of spore and hampered by the omnipresence of gholdengo. Arboliva is much less passive than either option, and is well positioned to punish rotom-w, garg, pex, ghosts and more.
The normal typing is important for obvious reasons: the ghost immunity is big in a meta where many top tiers like gholdengo and dragapult are spamming ghost moves. Of course, my biggest gripe with this was that it brought a fighting weakness. Whats the point of a ground resist that can't check great tusk? Unfortunately yeah, you do need to bring a more solid great tusk answer on your team. However, many great tusk have been dropping fighting stab in order to fit in stealth rock or bulk up. So if a great tusk carries earthquake/knock off/rapid spin/stealth rock or BU, arboliva can beat it easily.
Now why is Sub+3 attacks better than specs? A grassy terrain boosted leaf storm is very scary, but unfortunately there are lots of common and viable 4x grass resists all over the meta. Corv, volcarona, iron moth, amoongus, dragonite etc. Furthermore, many of the pokemon that arboliva takes advantage of such as rotom-w and garg often use protect, allowing specs to be easily scouted and its damage be minimized. Leaf Storm/earth power/tera blast (fire)/dazzling gleam is near impossible to wall but in practice it is slow, scouted, and easily revenge killed by chien pao, cinderace, iron valiant, iron moth etc. I didn't want sub+leech seed because I felt that arboliva needed at least 3 attacks to be a real threat, and in general I think subseed is better on faster mons. You want earth power to hit gholdengo without resorting to tera and skeledirge, and u want tera blast to threaten corvs/amoongs if needed. Don't forget that tera blast is normal and thus STAB before you tera, so it's excellent neutral coverage to hit amoongus, volcarona, dragonite and others. Grassy terrain+leftovers+giga drain gives u plenty of health to create subs with, and your base 39 speed tier is conveniently faster than the crowded 35 speed tier, naturally letting u get up subs on garg, pex, dondozo, and clodsire.
Finally, setting up grassy terrain is sweet. You naturally disrupt some dangerous psychic terrain/electric terrain teams, neutralize your teammate's weakness to eq, give extra recovery to your allies, and power up already strong grass moves like cb meowscarada flower trick. Grassy terrain+leftovers also negates salt cure chip damage, although you're still taking 14%~ from the attack itself. It does weaken your own eq's, but your great tusk can easily just run headlong rush so it's not a big deal. What other ground types are there anyway?
I got 5 high ladder replays to show you this mon is not a hoax, it plays a lot better than it seems:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1780415337-8tilhvcqjrs2vxaymqb1ppotv1y7grkpw
Arboliva's ghost immunity+high natural spdef lets it comfortably handle dragapult and keep subs up vs toxapex. Seed sower+leftovers+giga drain gives tons of recovery, and the opposing team straight up folds. Arboliva was the MVP vs 1960.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1780106828-oanfepcmy2p7juvho9j0iqdjsunj8sipw
I was able to pressure volcarona early with cb meow, but removing boots+keeping up rocks would've been enough. Arboliva was able to keep up with gholdengo and tera fire on specs pult's flamethrower+tank its draco naturally. CB meow uses grassy terrain to clean up in the end.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1779928356-iqhbw35nhwktc35de2zuz8mlie4rerjpw
Again, volcarona gets its boots knocked off and rocks are kept up, so it has trouble checking arboliva. It was able to get up a sub vs garg, and you can see how tera blast put in work even before using tera. EQ+espeed dnite can't set up as tera blast does a solid 45%~ back to pressure roosts. Once volc and dnite go down, tusk+garg+gholdengo lose to arboliva, and Im carried up to 1930.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1779332890-b9xvieh5nqinoguve5eco7yw28dl6frpw
I was able to push through volcarona by using tera fire on kingambit, leaving arboliva to beat garg+dnite+clodsire in the end. Again, dd+roost+eq+espeed dnite doesn't beat you 1v1.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1780052322-2ouo6dsvp4g6jxhu5n4usw1hzz9kxzxpw
Here's one from my good pal Pinkacross, the olive just gets in vs garg and the opposing team in 1900s gets dismantled. Keep in mind that tera fire would've dunked on the opposing skeledirge but arboliva's natural spdef + ep means it wasn't necessary.
Unfortunately that team is a bit too weak to chien pao so I've tilted, but I got plenty of evidence while I was high up. I peaked at 1941 and Pinka peaked at 1978. With these replays and its commanding performance in mind, I have moved beyond baby steps. It is time for big boy steps.
Arboliva should go UR --> B+ This is not a drill go back and watch those replays.
It is a bit weird to teambuild with (hint: skeledirge is an amazing partner), but its strengths and anti-meta properties are on par with mons like scizor and meowscarada. It is not as influential as mons like glimmora or clodsire, so I don't think it's quite A-. Hopefully our high ladder replays have shown its very real niche.
GREAT TUSK
Uuh Great tusk is on like 90% of serious teams fr (75% usage in SPL week 1). It's the only viable hazard removal on 90% of teams. Quaquaval can be spin blocked by dragapult/bulky gholdengo and hates giving up a moveslot for rapid spin. Iron treads is a sufficient spinner but lets in great tusk for free, and letting great tusk in for free is a massive flaw that otherwise viable pokemon have to wrestle with (tinkaton, iron hands, etc) Great tusk is just the best hazard removal and its not even close, and with how many good hazard setters we have, almost every team is gonna need some removal. You can say "just run boots bro" but boots spam is only an option on super defensive teams, offense needs some speed/power which is difficult to provide when everybody has boots on.
So now that I've briefly explained why great tusk is S rank and #1 usage, let's see what effect that has on the meta.
Offensive great tusk is a beast to try and switch into. Daddy Lando-t is not here to save us from ground/fighting 120 bp stabs combined with knock off. As far as soft checks go, we are pretty much stuck with washtom (and mowtom)/corv as your most common options. Water Tauros was raised to B- recently to reflect its ability to kind of soft check great tusk alongside kingambit/pao and I'm glad its getting that recognition too. Slowbro is also solid and rose appropriately. There are some other fringe options that barely avoid a 2hko like max defense gastro and slowking, but they're very shaky:
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 181-214 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(keeping leftovers in that calc bc gastro has sticky hold so lefties won't get knocked off)
I think this is reflected in the SPL usage stats, rotom-wash and corv had high usage at #4 and #6 respectively. So with that in mind, I've been testing some anti-meta techs to take advantage of the sparse few ground resists that teams are forced to carry to check the omnipresent great tusk.
Magnezone
Magnezone @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Magnet Pull
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 152 Def / 252 SpA / 104 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Substitute / Volt Switch
- Body Press
Ability: Magnet Pull
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 152 Def / 252 SpA / 104 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Substitute / Volt Switch
- Body Press
Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magnet Pull
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Steel Beam
Ability: Magnet Pull
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Steel Beam
I think the first set is a cool way to trap kingambit as well as the usual corv, although you lose out on a lot of initial power+ maybe volt turn action. First set's speed evs hits 200 to outpace adamant max speed kingambit/azu/iron hands. Magnezone naturally has great matchups vs lots of common fat mons like toxapex, garganacl, corviknight, dondozo, and hatterene. Cloak lets you become a garg check, but watch out for curse eq sets. Great tusk also has poor sdef, so the most common ground type doesn't wanna switch into your flash cannon.
252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 216-255 (58.2 - 68.7%)
252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 216-255 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
The fatter grounds like clodsire and ting-lu will take on the first set more easily, but specs is strong and can punish even clodsire:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Steel Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 208-246 (44.9 - 53.1%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Clodsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Steel Magnezone: 152-180 (54 - 64%)
Paired with some strong u-turn mons to take advantage of other special walls like blissey, you can form a real fat busting volturn core.
There's loads of mons that can take advantage of corviknight being trapped and eliminated: Meowscarada, Roaring Moon, Dragonite, Kingambit, Iron Valiant, Scizor, and of course Great Tusk. I've used magnezone with cb dragonite and cb meow to decent success, and I think there's a lot of potential in some old zone classics. Here's a replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1771868095-7gjuz0ccgr1zmme7p1i0wjdvijp10qqpw
You can see in this replay that once Corviknight is trapped, tera normal cb dnite espeed claims everything else.
Of course, trapping kingambit isn't as easy but can also be done, and prominent ghost types like dragapult and gholdengo can flex even harder with gambit gone. I'll give an honorable mention to Magneton which can also trap corv while holding scarf and having a much better speed tier being able to revenge kill unboosted iron valiant and being faster than cinderace, but will struggle to do much vs kingambit and is much weaker in general. I would like it a lot more if it was faster than chien pao, but alas it hits only 393 and pao is at 405. I think magnezone's potential is high and its pretty unexplored rn, so I would support a rise to C+ at least. I think it belongs in B personally, but we can take baby steps with this one.
Now I'd like to show another under the radar great tusk check, much more solid than corv or rotoms:
Slither Wing
Slither Wing @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Atk / 172 Def OR 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Adamant / Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- Close Combat / First Impression
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Atk / 172 Def OR 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Adamant / Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- Close Combat / First Impression
This mon resists ground+fighting, has reliable recovery, can cripple with wisp and give a slow u-turn off of tusk. It is sturdy af vs even CB tusk, and does well vs other physical threats:
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Slither Wing: 147-174 (39.3 - 46.5%)
252+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Slither Wing: 147-174 (39.3 - 46.5%) (0 allies fainted tbf)
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Slither Wing: 174-205 (46.5 - 54.8%)
252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Slither Wing on a critical hit: 114-135 (30.4 - 36%)
Chien pao's matchup is much shakier than the rest, but keep in mind your first impression will OHKO and thus force it out, allowing you to get a morning sun. If you choose to go close combat, the attack investment can 2hko sdef corv after rocks:
88+ Atk Slither Wing Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 189-223 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Personally I like first impression and max defense, I feel that slither wing should just focus on spreading burns and giving slow u-turns to your wallbreakers. Common mons like toxapex, skeledirge, volcarona etc will fully wall you even if you use CC. Tera Water is great for Fire Blast LO Chain chomps, Cinderaces, Rain threats, etc. I would rank it a little higher than Tauros-Water and bump it up to B to reflect its reliable recovery and wisp access over it.
So now that we've taken advantage of Corviknight and shown another solid ground check, let's take advantage of rotom-wash (and to a lesser extent rotom-mow)
ARBOLIVA
Violence (Arboliva) @ Leftovers
Ability: Seed Sower
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Tera Blast
- Earth Power
- Giga Drain
Ability: Seed Sower
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Tera Blast
- Earth Power
- Giga Drain
I know this mon is unranked but seriously this thing is a hidden gem. I was blown away by how good it is in practice. First I'll explain why arboliva is anti-meta at all, then why this set is better than specs, and finally some replays.
The key here is the grass/normal typing. I was on the same page as everybody else at first that grass/normal typing isn't great, but I've come around on this recently. A grass type special attacker is very well positioned rn bc it can switch into rotom-w and not care about wisps. The only other viable special attacking grass types are amoongus and toedscruel, and toedscruel doesn't even resist hydro pump. Amoongus on the other hand is pretty passive outside of spore and hampered by the omnipresence of gholdengo. Arboliva is much less passive than either option, and is well positioned to punish rotom-w, garg, pex, ghosts and more.
The normal typing is important for obvious reasons: the ghost immunity is big in a meta where many top tiers like gholdengo and dragapult are spamming ghost moves. Of course, my biggest gripe with this was that it brought a fighting weakness. Whats the point of a ground resist that can't check great tusk? Unfortunately yeah, you do need to bring a more solid great tusk answer on your team. However, many great tusk have been dropping fighting stab in order to fit in stealth rock or bulk up. So if a great tusk carries earthquake/knock off/rapid spin/stealth rock or BU, arboliva can beat it easily.
Now why is Sub+3 attacks better than specs? A grassy terrain boosted leaf storm is very scary, but unfortunately there are lots of common and viable 4x grass resists all over the meta. Corv, volcarona, iron moth, amoongus, dragonite etc. Furthermore, many of the pokemon that arboliva takes advantage of such as rotom-w and garg often use protect, allowing specs to be easily scouted and its damage be minimized. Leaf Storm/earth power/tera blast (fire)/dazzling gleam is near impossible to wall but in practice it is slow, scouted, and easily revenge killed by chien pao, cinderace, iron valiant, iron moth etc. I didn't want sub+leech seed because I felt that arboliva needed at least 3 attacks to be a real threat, and in general I think subseed is better on faster mons. You want earth power to hit gholdengo without resorting to tera and skeledirge, and u want tera blast to threaten corvs/amoongs if needed. Don't forget that tera blast is normal and thus STAB before you tera, so it's excellent neutral coverage to hit amoongus, volcarona, dragonite and others. Grassy terrain+leftovers+giga drain gives u plenty of health to create subs with, and your base 39 speed tier is conveniently faster than the crowded 35 speed tier, naturally letting u get up subs on garg, pex, dondozo, and clodsire.
Finally, setting up grassy terrain is sweet. You naturally disrupt some dangerous psychic terrain/electric terrain teams, neutralize your teammate's weakness to eq, give extra recovery to your allies, and power up already strong grass moves like cb meowscarada flower trick. Grassy terrain+leftovers also negates salt cure chip damage, although you're still taking 14%~ from the attack itself. It does weaken your own eq's, but your great tusk can easily just run headlong rush so it's not a big deal. What other ground types are there anyway?
I got 5 high ladder replays to show you this mon is not a hoax, it plays a lot better than it seems:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1780415337-8tilhvcqjrs2vxaymqb1ppotv1y7grkpw
Arboliva's ghost immunity+high natural spdef lets it comfortably handle dragapult and keep subs up vs toxapex. Seed sower+leftovers+giga drain gives tons of recovery, and the opposing team straight up folds. Arboliva was the MVP vs 1960.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1780106828-oanfepcmy2p7juvho9j0iqdjsunj8sipw
I was able to pressure volcarona early with cb meow, but removing boots+keeping up rocks would've been enough. Arboliva was able to keep up with gholdengo and tera fire on specs pult's flamethrower+tank its draco naturally. CB meow uses grassy terrain to clean up in the end.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1779928356-iqhbw35nhwktc35de2zuz8mlie4rerjpw
Again, volcarona gets its boots knocked off and rocks are kept up, so it has trouble checking arboliva. It was able to get up a sub vs garg, and you can see how tera blast put in work even before using tera. EQ+espeed dnite can't set up as tera blast does a solid 45%~ back to pressure roosts. Once volc and dnite go down, tusk+garg+gholdengo lose to arboliva, and Im carried up to 1930.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1779332890-b9xvieh5nqinoguve5eco7yw28dl6frpw
I was able to push through volcarona by using tera fire on kingambit, leaving arboliva to beat garg+dnite+clodsire in the end. Again, dd+roost+eq+espeed dnite doesn't beat you 1v1.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1780052322-2ouo6dsvp4g6jxhu5n4usw1hzz9kxzxpw
Here's one from my good pal Pinkacross, the olive just gets in vs garg and the opposing team in 1900s gets dismantled. Keep in mind that tera fire would've dunked on the opposing skeledirge but arboliva's natural spdef + ep means it wasn't necessary.
Unfortunately that team is a bit too weak to chien pao so I've tilted, but I got plenty of evidence while I was high up. I peaked at 1941 and Pinka peaked at 1978. With these replays and its commanding performance in mind, I have moved beyond baby steps. It is time for big boy steps.
Arboliva should go UR --> B+ This is not a drill go back and watch those replays.
It is a bit weird to teambuild with (hint: skeledirge is an amazing partner), but its strengths and anti-meta properties are on par with mons like scizor and meowscarada. It is not as influential as mons like glimmora or clodsire, so I don't think it's quite A-. Hopefully our high ladder replays have shown its very real niche.
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Alomomola seems overlooked on the VR, it's one of the main mons keeping Stall alive right now. Very difficult to kill, a great Knock Off absorber, plus Whirlpool makes it less passive than it's given credit for. Regenerator is great for stalling Salt Cure and scouting stuff like Chien-Pao, two additional huge attributes for Stall. Wish passing is a seriously undervalued niche in this meta with the recovery PP nerf but Alo just does it so well. Don't see any reason why it's as low as C, it's leagues above the other C mons in terms of consistency and general utility.
dude, arbo is sweet. I’ve been looking for dirge partners and these two complement each other really well. I’m a big sub dirge fan to shut down things like garg and pex, but you do miss having wisp against more offensive teams. having a mon that uses sub so well while maintaining offensive pressure takes that responsibility off dirge tremendously. plus, you beat unaware clod, which is one of dirge’s hard stops. great nom, excited to try it out more.
also seconding a rise for slither (shameless plug for my lure submission). it has solid defensive utility between its typing and movepool, with status like wisp and stun spore and morning sun for longevity. in addition to hard walling tusk, it helps check pao, tingy, meow, etc., making it a great ground/fighting/grass/dark resist, which takes a lot of pressure off defensive partners like corv.
replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1778578529-ra3l78z82uzs8fw37s9c8suf5ev9ktqpw
Umbreon is just quite hard to use without sacrificing all momentum and it does not accomplish much more than other competition does defensively, so it tends to be a mediocre option.
Maushole is strong and sees some usage. It is obviously not great and it does not serve any defensive purpose, but it still has a distinguished enough niche to remain ranked. Lokix is in the same boat mostly.
Re: Zard, see this as a good example.
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beyond this point, direct all questions to the SQSA: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/simple-questions-simple-answers-thread.3710772/ -- 24h is up, so we're open to nominations!
Just wanted to ask why is Corviknight ranked so high? I personally never used it before and whenever I face it seems very, uh, useless lol. Helpless against Gholdengo, especially the sub one I like to use. It only ever seems to 1. Throw off a brave bird against Iron Vailant (I terra-ed into an electric type and now it’s dead) and 2. A roadblock to dragonite’s sweep and 3. A roadblock to Chien-pao. Maybe I’m just not using the Pokémon that corviknight beats but in my experience it’s just a u-turn machine. Is that why it’s ranked so high or is it just because of pao? When it’s banned then will Corviknight be wayyyyy lower?
I must say it's because Iron defense Corvikight completely walls Great Tusk, which is one of the most used Pokemon and that always guarantee value in viability. Also it can come up for free against Clodsire and Ting-Lu, which are passive hazard stackers.
Corvi's biggest problem is Gholdengo but U-turn lets it bait Gholdengo switch ins into fast offensive Fire, Ghost or Dark types.
I would say that its because of the fact that if gholdengo is not in the picture, then corviknight is basically as good as ever, U-turn on the gholdengo and Body Press are memes tho, I would personally have dropped to A-, but i guess this works too
Not only Great Tusk, but pretty much most set up sweepers in the tier like Dragonite, Roaring Moon, Baxcalibur (if it didn't already use too many DDs), Kingambit, Scizor and Quaquaval. It also completely walls Meowscarada, which is always nice. The only real problem is in fact Gholdengo as you said, which is completely free to switch in.
Ok, I Am Not A Player That Ladders Very High, If At All, But I Will Make My Nomination
Armarouge: Unranked -> Any Of The C Ranks Really
Let's Talk About The Negatives First;
Now, Let's Look At The Upsides;
Here Are Some Sample Sets;
Support (Armarouge) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Calm Mind
- Armor Cannon
Cheesy BS (Armarouge) (F) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Weak Armor
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Armor Cannon
- Expanding Force
- Energy Ball
Here Are Revenge Killers For It;
Scarf Gholdengo, Chien-Pao, Ceruledge, Meowscarada, Roaring Moon, Quaquaval, and Great Tusk
Here Are Things That Give Him Headaches Without The Tools Needed To Defeat Them;
Clodsire, Who Is Answered By Psyshock, Dondozo, Rotom-Wash, And Garganacl, Who Are Answered By Energy Ball And Aura Sphere, Ting-Lu Is Answered By Both Energy Ball And Aura Sphere, And Roaring Moon By Dragon Pulse Or Aura Sphere
Here Are Tera Types I Think Would Be Useful For It, And The Benefits That Come With;
Grass: Ground And Water Resist, Powder Move Immunity, And STAB Energy Ball
Steel: Stealth Rock Resist, Immunity To Being Toxic'd And Poison Type Moves, STAB Flash Cannon
Fire: Nuclear Bomb Of An Armor Cannon
Psychic: Double STAB Psyshock/Expanding Force, Removing Fire's Weaknesses
Water: Being Able To Act As A Semi-Bulky Water, Ala Offensive Suicune
Ghost: Fighting Immunity And STAB Shadow Ball
Dark: Psychic Immunity, A Ghost And Dark Resist, And STAB Dark Pulse
Fighting: Dark Resist, Stealth Rock Resist, STAB Aura Sphere And Focus Blast Miss
Dragon: Elemental Type Resist And STAB Dragon Pulse
Replay: I did force a forfiet from a player with him, Will add more as I get more
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1783618502
Remember, this is the opinion of a lower ladder player, so this is from a different persepective than a lot of people. I will update this soon, but I Am wiped out from writing that, so peace fam.
Armarouge: Unranked -> Any Of The C Ranks Really
Let's Talk About The Negatives First;
A Lackluster Speed Of 75, Stealth Rock Weakness, And Vulnerable To Revenge Killers Like Scarf Gholdengo And Scarf Chien-Pao, Limited Sweeping Potential, And Lacks Instant Nuclear Power In Nasty Plot, Which Ceruledge Has The Physical Version Of, Swords Dance, And Inability To Switch Into A Lot Of Popular Pokemon. And That Are All The Downsides I See For It As Of Now.
Now, Let's Look At The Upsides;
First Thing You Notice Are Its Defensive Stats, As 85/100/80 isn't anything to do a double take at, But it's typing is what I think Does The Bulky Part For It. Fire Psychic Is Great Defensively, And It's Ability Flash Fire Gives It A Nice Immunity To Bolster It's Bulk. Next Is It's Deep As The Marianis Trench Coverage Movepool. Energy Ball, Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, Flash Cannon And Dragon Pulse? This Is Any Special Attacking Fire Types Dream Coverage Moves. But That's It's Special Moves Only. In Status Moves, It Has Calm Mind, Will-O-Wisp, Trick Room, Taunt, Destiny Bond, And Dual Screens! But Wait, What OU Pokemon Can Switch Into It's STABS Safely? Roaring Moon, And That's It. Now, I Will Acknowledge It's Downsides, Being Slow And Stealth Rock Weak In A Hazard And Speed Focused Metagame is Not Great, But Look At Garganacl, A Bulky Slow ROCK Type, And Armarouge Could Be Quite Decent With Proper Support.
Here Are Some Sample Sets;
Support (Armarouge) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Calm Mind
- Armor Cannon
Cheesy BS (Armarouge) (F) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Weak Armor
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Armor Cannon
- Expanding Force
- Energy Ball
Here Are Revenge Killers For It;
Scarf Gholdengo, Chien-Pao, Ceruledge, Meowscarada, Roaring Moon, Quaquaval, and Great Tusk
Here Are Things That Give Him Headaches Without The Tools Needed To Defeat Them;
Clodsire, Who Is Answered By Psyshock, Dondozo, Rotom-Wash, And Garganacl, Who Are Answered By Energy Ball And Aura Sphere, Ting-Lu Is Answered By Both Energy Ball And Aura Sphere, And Roaring Moon By Dragon Pulse Or Aura Sphere
Here Are Tera Types I Think Would Be Useful For It, And The Benefits That Come With;
Grass: Ground And Water Resist, Powder Move Immunity, And STAB Energy Ball
Steel: Stealth Rock Resist, Immunity To Being Toxic'd And Poison Type Moves, STAB Flash Cannon
Fire: Nuclear Bomb Of An Armor Cannon
Psychic: Double STAB Psyshock/Expanding Force, Removing Fire's Weaknesses
Water: Being Able To Act As A Semi-Bulky Water, Ala Offensive Suicune
Ghost: Fighting Immunity And STAB Shadow Ball
Dark: Psychic Immunity, A Ghost And Dark Resist, And STAB Dark Pulse
Fighting: Dark Resist, Stealth Rock Resist, STAB Aura Sphere And Focus Blast Miss
Dragon: Elemental Type Resist And STAB Dragon Pulse
Replay: I did force a forfiet from a player with him, Will add more as I get more
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1783618502
Remember, this is the opinion of a lower ladder player, so this is from a different persepective than a lot of people. I will update this soon, but I Am wiped out from writing that, so peace fam.
The Gholdengo match-up for Corv feels like the Ultimate Achilles' Heel: All things considered it's the only giant problem for Corv in its intended role, but it's a hell of an "only" problem to have among match-ups. At the same time being hard-troubled by the most significant Pokemon in the tier also means you're asking for counterplay that realistically the team would need with or without you.
Unrelated there: I'm surprised to see Gallade hanging around in the C-Ranks still. Sure he hits hard thanks to Sharpness and a very good movepool, but my boy sadly offers no defensive utility in a Meta invested with Ghosts and Valiant, not to mention a speed tier that heavily cries for a Scarf or Agility (when his moveslots are at a premium for coverage alone). I guess I'm curious if that slow Wallbreaker role is enough to maintain that ranking or if he just kinda didn't register in lower-rank clean up, if anyone knows or uses whatever in particular he's doing well right now.
I feel you need to go deeper on things like your "headaches" section listing specific match-ups that Armarouge would contribute to, relevant Pokemon that it offers role compression for by nuking a specific set of targets or teammates it pairs well with to break cores. The Revenge Killer section seems a bit pointless because Arm is very slow and not boosting speed in any manner, so it doesn't really need dedicated speedsters to revenge kill it (a lot of top OU Pokemon can outrun it without much investment).
You have a few spots that are on the right track, but the giant listing of Armarouge's known strong and weak points on paper alongside just what Tera Types do in general rather than which ones specifically are important to it doesn't do anything to convince me it should be ranked compared to where I was before the post. The low ladder disclaimer and replay feel like they're missing the point of why High Ladder is what is usually demonstrated with, since lower ladder players can't be assured to be familiar with and thus playing to the best of their teams' abilities (beyond the prediction aspect that will impact any game to some degree).
And less about the Nom and more the post: the Title Case (Where You Capitalize Every Word Like This) makes the post kind of stilted and harder to read than it should be.
Unrelated there: I'm surprised to see Gallade hanging around in the C-Ranks still. Sure he hits hard thanks to Sharpness and a very good movepool, but my boy sadly offers no defensive utility in a Meta invested with Ghosts and Valiant, not to mention a speed tier that heavily cries for a Scarf or Agility (when his moveslots are at a premium for coverage alone). I guess I'm curious if that slow Wallbreaker role is enough to maintain that ranking or if he just kinda didn't register in lower-rank clean up, if anyone knows or uses whatever in particular he's doing well right now.
I appreciate the inclusion of the replay, but I don't think it's a particularly good showcase since your opponent just fed Dondozo to it and then gave up the match instead of switching into his Skeledirge. Your Armarouge doesn't match either of the sets you included in the post so I'm not sure what this is meant to be demonstrating relative to the post either.
I feel you need to go deeper on things like your "headaches" section listing specific match-ups that Armarouge would contribute to, relevant Pokemon that it offers role compression for by nuking a specific set of targets or teammates it pairs well with to break cores. The Revenge Killer section seems a bit pointless because Arm is very slow and not boosting speed in any manner, so it doesn't really need dedicated speedsters to revenge kill it (a lot of top OU Pokemon can outrun it without much investment).
You have a few spots that are on the right track, but the giant listing of Armarouge's known strong and weak points on paper alongside just what Tera Types do in general rather than which ones specifically are important to it doesn't do anything to convince me it should be ranked compared to where I was before the post. The low ladder disclaimer and replay feel like they're missing the point of why High Ladder is what is usually demonstrated with, since lower ladder players can't be assured to be familiar with and thus playing to the best of their teams' abilities (beyond the prediction aspect that will impact any game to some degree).
And less about the Nom and more the post: the Title Case (Where You Capitalize Every Word Like This) makes the post kind of stilted and harder to read than it should be.
I'd like to bring attention to this post as well because Alomomola has been a consistently useful OU mon thanks to its movepool, HP + Defense, and typing. In all honesty, I find it to be more useful than Toxapex right now (despite the fact that I feel Toxapex is still VERY good, those Ground / Psychic weaknesses REALLY sting).
As Memesketch stated, it's a fantastic Knock Off absorber, Whirlpool is great tech, Wish is incredible, especially with Regenerator and it has a lot of flexibility with its item slot additionally. I can see Alomomola as a C+ or B- mon; C just does not do it justice.
ok but what's your point? Just because something is in UU does not mean it can't deal lots of damage against OU mons, Rampardos and Slaking were utter garbage even in PU but they do deal a lot of damage when they hit something.
Come back when you can 2hko Dondozo with a neutral move. Also, Dozo doesn't care about SD or Bulk Up.
more of an if they hit something
anyway, nom time:
from B+ to A-: the support this mon provides it crazy, future sight is as threatening as it was last gen, with arguably more abusers and less reliable answers, for example. This is a replay of a tour game I played recently, where despite my favorable mu, the opponents slowking continued to be a consistent thorn that could've won him the game if not for an unfortunate choke by my opponent, of course, I'm not claiming to be a top player, and neither me or my opponent were playing perfectly, but even in an mu where you'd expect slowking to struggle a bit (rotom, ghold) it still managed to be an incredibly prevalent threat that makes consistent and reliable progress.
Honestly, I second this, Slowking is so good, the only problem is, Chien Pao is both a bless and a curse, its a bless because of Chilly Reception, on the other hand, Pao just pounds slowking untill the end of time, if pao gets banned, he is gonna explode on popularitymore of an if they hit something
anyway, nom time:
Agreed with Slowking rising being one CP ban away. Currently the slew of dark and ghost types mean you’re forfeiting a team slot in a lot of games, since Slowkings gameplay is very predictable and it’s ridiculously easy for the best offensive threats to switch into it and/or setup on it.
its ability to easily switch into defensive Pokémon and slow pivot out is what makes it good though, it’ll probably have more utility once CP goes, although gholdengo/meowscaranda/dragapult/kingambit and similar Pokémon’s are extremely trendy and every team is packing at least 1-2 Pokémon that can take a massive momentum advantage by switching in favourably.
I find that currently Slowking has such little space to operate I end up using nothing but chilly reception in a lot of games. With the occasional psychic for a favourable trade if a great tusk decides to stay in for a rapid spin or knock off or if a valiant decides it’s worth kamikaze-ing to do 60% to Slowking
its ability to easily switch into defensive Pokémon and slow pivot out is what makes it good though, it’ll probably have more utility once CP goes, although gholdengo/meowscaranda/dragapult/kingambit and similar Pokémon’s are extremely trendy and every team is packing at least 1-2 Pokémon that can take a massive momentum advantage by switching in favourably.
I find that currently Slowking has such little space to operate I end up using nothing but chilly reception in a lot of games. With the occasional psychic for a favourable trade if a great tusk decides to stay in for a rapid spin or knock off or if a valiant decides it’s worth kamikaze-ing to do 60% to Slowking
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What's Bellibolt's niche? First time I've actually heard of this thing lmao
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