Resource SV OU Viability Ranking Thread [ UPDATE: POST #751 ]

[Baloor]

hi, resident loor here. with all the recent discourse about walking wake another new release has sorta been swept under the rug and has honestly made more of a impression on me in this weeks SPL and stour than Wake did.

-> B+

To just about every ones surprise, this mon is actually good. To get the most notable thing about zoroark out of the way, illusion in conjunction with a normal ghost typing is massive headache for just about any team as giving zoro free turns via sball can be a disaster scenario. due to this, zoro can literally do nothing but sit in the back all game but still be actively doing something by making your opponent question if the mon is real or zoro. this is pretty common fare for zoroark in general, however, being slightly stronger, faster and having a good typing while keeping the insane movepool make hisui zoro perform this role better than base.

now to get into more of the meat of this post. while zoro has proven to be a decent specs breaker on BO style teams (aim video) offering enough options in its move pool to cover just about anything in the metagame + having access to trick makes this the most immediately appealing set. Tera Fighting/Fairy to resist darks are pretty common on this set with some people running tera normal to boost hyper voice. While this set is fine on BO style teams it tends to be a pretty average pick compared to some other better options you can run for the choiced breaker role that are more consistent in breaking like specs valiant for example. scarf has also been used and does just about what you'd expect it to do. overall these sets are okay options and i'd consider it for B- maybe B if this is all zoro had to offer.

where zoroark-hisui really shines is on Hyper Offense style teams, where it runs typically either Focus Sash or Life Orb. While these initially seem like sub-par items they help maximize zoro's gimmick. Like I mentioned before, Zoro's whole "thing" is to act at as sort of fake out for the opponent and lure in certain mons. this strategy is used to its fullest on HO teams due to how fast it plays, with zoro usually only being able to effectively use illusion once per game, a playstyle that forces progress in as little amount of turns as possible. Used to its max potential, zoro can get some really good picks that can be beneficial to enable one of your sweepers. Life Orb assists zoro in getting kills vs vs slower teams while sash can help zoro gets picks vs more offensive teams. Considering how editable this is, its pretty hard to give a definite list of interactions, however, I will give one of my favorite interactions using a core example. this is one of my favorite examples (and one of the more common ones) that shows how zoro can be used; basically you disguise yourself as dragonite and force in their dragonite check, a lot of people will send in their Great Tusk first vs a dnite and then you can bop it with grass knot (it kills most spreads unless theres spdef investment). Some people might might bring in their rotom or tera'd garg which you can effectively perform the same thing. As most people know, removing a great tusk puts you in a significant advantage in the current meta. This is the most straightforward example (and probably the most notable) I can give, but there is a whole load of different picks and trades you can get with zoro. To wrap it up, zoro can also act as a spinblocker if used right (thought it might just get nuked if you guess wrong lol).

heres a some tournament replays that showcases zoroark on offense
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-679757 crying stours finals
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-679748 crying stours semis
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-679407 raptor vs tpp spl
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-680157 nagol vs talah spl


theres a lot of zoro replays in spl, stour and ost so i'd advise you to look yourself but i chose these as they cover what i'm talking about the best without being too repetitive content wise.

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

-> B+

I have to admit, I'm confused by this nomination. Nearly everything on this post that describes what Hisuian Zoroark can do is also done by base Zoroark (who is currently sitting in NU), albeit worse because of its lower Speed tier and slightly lower Special Attack. Hisuian Zoroark maintains base Zoroarks' weaknesses (its fragile nature and susceptibility to hazards, not Type weaknesses). While it possesses numerous immunities, its fragile nature and lack of resistances means smacking it with non STAB attacks does a number, allowing the opponent to play it safe by using attacks that are neutral on both targets. Terastalization on Hisuian Zoroark seems like a waste unless you're in a pinch because you then cannot use it on other, more dangerous Pokemon like Dragonite or Kingambit.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but Hisuian Zoroark is just looking like a better variant of Zoroark, who was not very good to begin with.

 

[pika pal]

I have to admit, I'm confused by this nomination. Nearly everything on this post that describes what Hisuian Zoroark can do is also done by base Zoroark (who is currently sitting in NU), albeit worse because of its lower Speed tier and slightly lower Special Attack. Hisuian Zoroark maintains base Zoroarks' weaknesses (its fragile nature and susceptibility to hazards, not Type weaknesses). While it possesses numerous immunities, its fragile nature and lack of resistances means smacking it with non STAB attacks does a number, allowing the opponent to play it safe by using attacks that are neutral on both targets. Terastalization on Hisuian Zoroark seems like a waste unless you're in a pinch because you then cannot use it on other, more dangerous Pokemon like Dragonite or Kingambit.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but Hisuian Zoroark is just looking like a better variant of Zoroark, who was not very good to begin with.

I think you're underselling how much better Hisuian Zoroark has it (whether or not it's enough to be OU viable) with its typing. Ghost is a MUCH stronger type offensively than Dark in a meta full of Tusk and Valiant (while retaining SE on important targets like Gholdengo), while also being very helpful to skirt around defensively thanks to Normal granting it an immunity to work with. This makes Zoroark-H mindgames much higher risk for what would normally be a safe and spammable STAB to click for something like Specs Gholdengo or Dragapult, while being able to use that same spammable typing for the attacks it can fire off a pretty decent offensive stat. Shadow Ball + Hyper Voice together has pretty good neutral coverage on STABs, or you could play around with Bitter Malice as another potential means of momentum, via an Intimidate-like ATK drop easing a switch-in chance for another HO teammate.

Hisuian Zoroark is a better version in that the aspects it improves over Zoroark let it function slightly better in normal play and gives it greater benefit if Illusion buys it a turn from mindgames, which having more immunities and a bit more damage potential position it better for that turn to come up. It also definitely enjoys SV OU's top dogs being Gholdengo and Great Tusk, both of whom it bears a potential immunity to and can KO back with Specs due to weakness/lower bulk, which discourages them from switching into things they check (which is a LOT of stuff given their roles) unless they can confirm it's not Zoroark waiting to pop them; this even brings in second-guessing on double switches, since on top of considerations like "do I stay in or double switch on this Kingambit/Roaring Moon being checked and trying to leave," there is the dimension of "what if it's a Zoroark-H that checks ME instead of a Kingambit checked by me?" to consider, with every one of these decisions risking quite a bit in a HO match-up or with something holding that amount of role compression for OU teams.

I think B-Ranks are a reasonable consideration for Zoroark-H in that while many B-Ranks are "pretty good against some things but more team specific," Zoroark has similarly questionable consistency instead based on the game-to-game plays while performing quite well when acting as a second-guess deterrent. What sets this apart from other unranked or lower tier Mons showing up as Surprise tech is that Zoroark has tools that can already put in decent work in OU (competent Speed tier, a decently strong offensive movepool and STABs) and the mindgames/surprise come in how the opponent positions a reasonably-threatening Pokemon rather than a very-specific gap in the team being plugged by a highly-specialized team member; theoretically, Zoroark-H's traits make it capable of playing as a HO mon even if Illusion wasn't a thing, but those guesses add an extra layer of prediction to its presence that are high-risk/high-reward for the user to play around. It's a mon that rewards a player who's really good at bluffing (to put Zoroark or the thing it might imitate on the field) AND reading an opponent (reacting to the opponent either falling or calling their bluff)

 

[Mega Breloom]

I have to admit, I'm confused by this nomination. Nearly everything on this post that describes what Hisuian Zoroark can do is also done by base Zoroark (who is currently sitting in NU), albeit worse because of its lower Speed tier and slightly lower Special Attack. Hisuian Zoroark maintains base Zoroarks' weaknesses (its fragile nature and susceptibility to hazards, not Type weaknesses). While it possesses numerous immunities, its fragile nature and lack of resistances means smacking it with non STAB attacks does a number, allowing the opponent to play it safe by using attacks that are neutral on both targets. Terastalization on Hisuian Zoroark seems like a waste unless you're in a pinch because you then cannot use it on other, more dangerous Pokemon like Dragonite or Kingambit.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but Hisuian Zoroark is just looking like a better variant of Zoroark, who was not very good to begin with.

Even if I agree that H-Zoroak hype is a new toy syndrome, its typing is very good since it can spin block and fighting/ghost attacks are used a lot. A bit overated? Yeah but it actually has a niche in the current OU.

has been doing great lately, a great wallbreaker that has several tools to take advantage of common special walls and has a great match up against the unaware trio. I think it is A- at this moment.

 

[Moyashi]

I have to admit, I'm confused by this nomination. Nearly everything on this post that describes what Hisuian Zoroark can do is also done by base Zoroark (who is currently sitting in NU), albeit worse because of its lower Speed tier and slightly lower Special Attack. Hisuian Zoroark maintains base Zoroarks' weaknesses (its fragile nature and susceptibility to hazards, not Type weaknesses). While it possesses numerous immunities, its fragile nature and lack of resistances means smacking it with non STAB attacks does a number, allowing the opponent to play it safe by using attacks that are neutral on both targets. Terastalization on Hisuian Zoroark seems like a waste unless you're in a pinch because you then cannot use it on other, more dangerous Pokemon like Dragonite or Kingambit.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but Hisuian Zoroark is just looking like a better variant of Zoroark, who was not very good to begin with.

You sort of just ignored a lot of examples Baloor gave, including high level games, which displayed what HZoro can do. HZoro's typing is significant as a difference to regular Zoro as it gives it far more ways to play and abuse the mind games it causes. Zoro can't in practice do what HZoro does because its typing makes it much harder to work with, while its counterpart having three pretty big immunities makes it more practical. And as Baloor noted, especially on HO as the fast paced nature of those teams abuse HZoro's talents well. (Not to mention the STAB combo is generally more threatening anyways).

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Regular Zoroark also has no good immunity since psychic is already a poor offensive typing to begin with. Meanwhile H- Zoroark has 3 immunities, all of which can come it handy (immune to Extremespeed, all fighting and ghost moves). This creates a lot of chance to get a free kill

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

Did not think the Typing made that large a difference between the two Pokemon. Surprised it has a very real niche in OU, thanks a bunch fellas.

 

[tigers jaw]

I concur with Baloor's well-written & convincing post regarding Zoro-H. Initially, I wrote it off as a gimmicky shitmon, but it's actually quite strong, especially on HO, as Baloor mentioned. It shares synergy with many of the most threatening HO-staple breakers & cleaners (Dnite, Moon, Gholdengo, Valiant, Pult, Kingambit, Volcarona, Baxcalibur, etc.) in the metagame, and is surprisingly effective in its role. I'd place it at either B- or B.

Here are a few teams you can use to get a sense of the interplay between said Pokemon & Zoro-H:





They are similar, granted - that's because I get an idea in my head and build many teams around it. They should give you a general idea on how this Pokemon functions & how strong it can be.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

I don't see anyone using hydreigon, if walking wake doesn't get banned it will go right back to UUBL again.

Based on the general consensus, it looks like the results will be in Hydreigon's favour

 

[Venuesaur]

-> A/A+

wrote this already and it got deleted so i'll be brief. top 10 usage in spl, has a ton of great sets, an amazing movepool and an amazing offensive type. It's best check, corv, isn't as good as it was with chien pao in the meta, and it still dislikes getting knocked and uturned on. other checks either hate knock off or are uturn neutral. flower trick is also great, and it spikes and is very fast. great mon.

Agree with
breloom -> A-/A
garchomp -> A+

 

[Real_Corviknight]

UR -> S-/S

currently the elephant in the room in regards to the meta and it's by no means hard to see why. its near perfect coverage coupled with its combination of high firepower, blistering speed and respectable bulk all combine to make it very difficult to wall and very difficult to revenge kill. most priority moves bounce off of it and it's not other pokemon aren't going to be outspeeding it without the use of a choice scarf, and a lot common scarfers aren't super reliable at picking it off (gholdengo, meowscarada, etc.) and can also be outsped by walking wake if it opts to boost its speed under the sun, which most variants do. this leaves us only booster energy iron valiant and +1 roaring moon under sun that can consistently revenge kill it, which is absurd. however, it's not only extremely hard for most of the game to revenge kill, it's also even harder to switch into. having water STAB boosted by both sun and rain makes it absurdly hard to take hits from, especially for opposing weather teams (since wake can and often does function outside of sun), and anything that does can easily get blown past by a draco meteor on the switch. its few checks even sometimes rely on tera to beat it 1v1, such as gastrodon and clodsire, just due to how terrifying its dragon STAB can be for the water resists switching in. overall a crazy strong pokemon and is one i definitely think is top 5 minimum. its presence in the meta alone exerts immense pressure in the builder, which is absolutely S-rank worthy in my eyes

and of course, considering its prevalence, i think walking wake's limited pool of checks/counters (seen below) should also rise. most of these were already very good prior to its release but the added utility of checking one of the most dangerous pokemon in the game definitely makes them more worth using now than they were before

A+ -> S-
A- -> A/A+
B+ -> A-
B -> B+
D -> C+/B-/B

 

[Mega Breloom]

View attachment 500310 UR -> S-/S

currently the elephant in the room in regards to the meta and it's by no means hard to see why. its near perfect coverage coupled with its combination of high firepower, blistering speed and respectable bulk all combine to make it very difficult to wall and very difficult to revenge kill. most priority moves bounce off of it and most pokemon aren't going to be outspeeding it without the use of a choice scarf, and most common scarfers aren't super reliable at picking it off (gholdengo, meowscarada, etc.) and can also be outsped by walking wake if it opts to boost its speed under the sun, which most variants do, leaving only booster energy iron valiant and +1 roaring moon under sun that can consistently revenge kill it. however, it's not only extremely hard for most of the game to revenge kill, it's also even harder to switch into. having water STAB boosted by both sun and rain makes it absurdly hard to take hits from, especially for opposing weather teams (since wake can and often does function outside of sun), and anything that does can easily get blown past by a draco meteor on the switch. its few checks even sometimes rely on tera to beat it 1v1, such as gastrodon and clodsire, just due to how terrifying its dragon STAB can be for the water resists switching in. overall a crazy strong pokemon and is one i definitely think is top 5 minimum. its presence in the meta alone exerts immense pressure in the builder, which is absolutely S-rank worthy in my eyes

and of course, considering its prevalence, i think walking wake's limited pool of checks/counters (seen below) should also rise. most of these were already very good prior to its release but the added utility of checking one of the most dangerous pokemon in the game definitely makes them more worth using now than they were before

View attachment 500317A+ -> S-
View attachment 500314 A- -> A/A+
View attachment 500313B+ -> A-
View attachment 500311B -> B+
View attachment 500312 D -> C+/B-/B

I strongly disagree with Wake's nomination. It is way to inconsistent and needs sun to be more than the average special attacker to be S rank. S is for mons who define the meta and WW haven't really changed too much besides raising the usage of some mons that already were meta. S mons could be put in almost any team and do well, it doesn't happen on Wake's case.
IMO the upper ranking would look like this
S Rank:

S Rank

Gholdengo
Great Tusk

S- Rank

Valiant
Kingambit

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Dragapult
Dragonite
Volcarona
Garg
Rotom

And then WW on A, it is a decent mon, but it is inconsistent so its spot and impact in the meta is debatable.

 

[UnusualBoy]

Will the viability ranks ever be updated? They still have the ugly cat with B plus and Gren isn't even there lol.

 

[Mewthree69]

I have to admit, I'm confused by this nomination. Nearly everything on this post that describes what Hisuian Zoroark can do is also done by base Zoroark (who is currently sitting in NU), albeit worse because of its lower Speed tier and slightly lower Special Attack. Hisuian Zoroark maintains base Zoroarks' weaknesses (its fragile nature and susceptibility to hazards, not Type weaknesses). While it possesses numerous immunities, its fragile nature and lack of resistances means smacking it with non STAB attacks does a number, allowing the opponent to play it safe by using attacks that are neutral on both targets. Terastalization on Hisuian Zoroark seems like a waste unless you're in a pinch because you then cannot use it on other, more dangerous Pokemon like Dragonite or Kingambit.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but Hisuian Zoroark is just looking like a better variant of Zoroark, who was not very good to begin with.

It could also be true that regularhas been somewhat underutilized this gen. With Psyspam propping up and its ability to lure in and KO Great Tusk and Dondozo with Grass Knot, I think it's been under the radar as a D/C- tier mon at some points in the meta. However, for reasons stated above by other posters,is a lot better and there's little to no reason to use its regular form now.

 

[g3od00d]

First time making a nomination, so take it easy on me.

Clodsire should easily go from A- --> A.

I don't think this is a controversial nomination, but I'll do my best to persuade you, the reader, that this is a worthy bump. Clodsire is one of the most reliable defensive Pokemon in the tier currently. It's stat spread is highly specialized and efficient to shrug off the most powerful special attacks, checking the likes of threatening meta threats such as (non Tera Ground) Volcarona, Iron Valiant, the recently suspected Walking Wake (with Tera Fairy Water Absorb), special Dragapult, and more. It makes up for it's passivity with Toxic, where if it keeps it's main Ground/Poison typing, it has a 100% chance of landing against any foe not immune to the move. It can force progress with it's hazard moves in Spikes or Stealth Rock as well. Clodsire is an excellent glue Pokemon in this metagame that will always have a valuable role on any bulky offence/balance/stall team for it's amazing capabilities.

The biggest downside Clodsire has are it's vulnerabilities to get bullied by physical attackers, which this generation has no shortage of. Great Tusk existing is a big deterrent for Clodsire's success, as well as Kingambit (especially the prevalent Tera Flying Kingambit), Garchomp, and more scary physical attackers. Despite these glaring weaknesses, Clodsire provides a valuable role for checking scary special attackers which cannot be overlooked in this metagame currently. Pokemon Home's update proves to be an omnipresent threat to Clodsire's excellent success thus far in Gen 9 with attackers on the horizon like Sneasler and especially Ursaluna, but for now Clodsire fills an extremely valuable role for teams that other Pokemon cannot fulfill. Therefore, it deserves A rank at the least.

 

[Zakaryah]

In

 

[agslash23]

Since Wake stays, the VR needs a fresh update ASAP, and thus below is my VR till B- (Red means drop from current VR, Green means rise) :

S Rank:

S Rank

Gholdengo
Great Tusk

S- Rank

Iron Valiant

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Dragapult
Dragonite
Garganacl
Kingambit
Roaring Moon
Rotom-Wash
Volcarona

A Rank

Baxcalibur
Cinderace
Corviknight
Garchomp
Hatterene
Skeledirge
Slowking
Walking Wake

A- Rank

Amoonguss
Breloom
Clodsire
Glimmora
Hydreigon
Meowscarada
Ting-Lu
Torkoal
Toxapex

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Ceruledge
Dondozo
Greninja
Iron Moth
Pelipper
Orthworm

B Rank

Armarouge
Azumarill
Floatzel
Grimmsnarl
Iron Leaves
Iron Treads
Quaquaval
Tauros-Paldea-Fire
Zoroark-Hisui

B- Rank

Iron Hands
Pawmot
Scizor
Slither Wing
Tauros-Paldea-Water

 

[sims796]

Oh my, why the fall of Garg? Is it possible for a mon to be banworthy AND not S rank?

 

[Local Dog]

Oh my, why the fall of Garg? Is it possible for a mon to be banworthy AND not S rank?

Kyurem was A or A+ and got banned last gen

 

[agslash23]

Oh my, why the fall of Garg? Is it possible for a mon to be banworthy AND not S rank?

Garg is still annoying and difficult, but stuff like Walking Wake (Greninja before that) and Slowking that either offensively pressure it or take advantage of it, as well as usage of Covert Cloak on stuff like Gholdengo, Amoongus means it's a little easier to handle than before. It can stay at S- as well, it's just my opinion

 

[1LDK]

You know what, I'm gonna do that too, this is copied and pasted from my personal viability rankings so yeah, put laziness above the laziness

S Rank:
(Pokemon I feel are very splashable on any team and are versatile in the sets they can run)

Great Tusk
Gargancl
Kingambit

A Rank:

A+ Rank
(Pokemon I feel help shape the metagame and make it what it is, whilst having some weaknesses to them to keep them balanced)

Gholdengo
Dragapult
Dragonite
Iron Valiant
Walking Wake

A Rank

and (They are cute together, look at their happyness)
Cinderace
Roaring Moon
Ting Lu
Garchomp
Skeledirge
Rotom Wash
Torkoal
Volcarona
Greninja
Baxcalibur

A- Rank

Grimmsnarl
Dondozo
Glimmora
A M O N G U S
Corviknight
Iron Moth
Meowscarada
Hatterene
Slowking

B Rank:
(The Pokemon I feel hold a certain niche in the metagame and require specific teambuilding to allow them to actually be good, or generally have one role in the metagame)

B+ Rank

Iron Hands
Hydreigon
Azumarill
Breloom
Scizor
Pelipper
Floatzel
Toxapex

B Rank

Blissey
Ditto
Hippowdon
Slither Wing
Talonflame
Zoroark Hisui

B- Rank
Armarouge
Polteageist
Indeedee
Indeedee F
Scream Tail
Sylveon
Gastrodon
Lokix
Iron Leaves

 

[kingmickey27]

to A

Garchomp has no business being in A-. It's being explored a lot more with Mixed, Tank, Sub SD, SD + 3 Attacks (with Tera), and even Choice Scarf is surprisingly effective at luring in and killing stuff that think they are faster (Dragapult getting sniped right off the bat is pretty funny. It's not even a bad Scarfer because of fewer Flying and Fairy types this generation, and still sports a pretty good speed tier to work with Choice Scarf).

and regardless of the set, a well-played Garchomp can lure and/or weaken key threats on the opposing team to set the stage for its teammates (Kingambit, Volc, Iron Valiant, Iron Moth, whatever) to clean up. I don't think its an exaggeration to say that defensively, nothing in this tier is completely safe from getting fucked over by this thing and that it is difficult to account for defensively in the teambuilder.

It has two main flaws, I find. First is the obvious, being outsped and killed by faster threats. The other is: while Garchomp collectively poses a threat to every team, each of its individual sets have dedicated checks and counters that can beat it most of the time. That's why the main value of Garchomp is its customizability in tandem with its threatening presence, allowing it to pick what it wants to beat. Because of that, it's one of the best lures and Tera abusers in the tier and I don't think A- accurately shows how much of an asset it can be.

 

[MX42]

Gonna just echo a few noms I agree with.

->A+
-> A/A+
->A
->A
->A-/A
-> A- or higher
->B+ (tbh could see A-)

Here are a few noms I got.

->B-

Honestly, this thing feels super underwhelming to play against and face. It also does not particularly like the addition of Walking Wake since it kind of was carried by a lack of water resists in the tier. Bulk Up sets also have some pretty big 4MSS. You want Ice Spinner for things like Water Absorb Clod and Amoongus, yet you want Roost for the set to be able to effectively punish offense. Taunt is also desired to help you set up especially on the unaware mons in the tier. Every single time I see this mon, it just ends up not performing that well. Its usage also is falling off a cliff and it is gonna drop into UU pretty soon. I think a drop is pretty fair.

-> A- or higher

Honestly this is one of the scariest physical wallbreakers in the tier right now. Oftentimes I find that unless you are playing just HO, this thing is a nightmare to deal with. The only Physical wall that feels safe to switch in without burning your Terra to the band set is Corviknight, who already gets pressured a lot. Corv meanwhile is not a good check to the Swords Dance sets. Having to guess whether it is Choice Band or SD is brutal since you could easily lose your only check to this mon. It helps Bax isn't dead weight completely into offense. STAB Ice Shard and being fat enough means it pulls enough weight in those mus to not get bowled over by HO.

 

[Finchinator]

Now that the Walking Wake suspect is over, we are running a new VR slate. Ruft will be seeing it through, not me; thanks for his consistent amazing effort. Stay tuned

 

[ant4456]

sylveon gotta be higher it is a lot better than some of these shitmons above it

it has little competition for its role of fairy cleric, and honestly is pretty consistent at doing its job

it's not a top tier or even high mid tier, but it's not C Rank lol, put that shit in B- or B