Resource SV OU Viability Ranking Thread [ UPDATE: POST #751 ]

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You replied to a comment that was literally from december (Chi-Yu meta, for reference)... Shocks is currently B Rank and a very legitimate option as a special attackers and the downsides you mentioned hold it back a bit but don't make it unviable at all. Toedscruel is also a mon you kind of only see on suicide lead sets so it's not very relevant that it would wall Shocks, better examples of things that give it trouble are Ting-Lu and bulky Grasses (and even then, the best one, Amoonguss, isn't even a Ground resist).

Not trying to be harsh but I think you should lurk a bit more, your comment doesn't exactly reek of experience with the OU metagame or the way the forums work (I'm also pretty sure double commenting isn't allowed? or at the very least heavily frowned upon)
oh, I didn't notice the post was from december,and I didn't know that double commenting was frowned upon. I am just new to using the Smogon Forums.
 
oh, I didn't notice the post was from december,and I didn't know that double commenting was frowned upon. I am just new to using the Smogon Forums.
I recommend checking out the Metagame Discussion thread if you're new. It's a good place to see people discussing trends or posting replays and sets, maybe inquire about things you're curious about in your own right.
 
:breloom: B -> B+/A-
Second this nomination. I've been spamming CB Breloom + Slowking core to really great effect. I think CB is still one of Loom's best sets, but it still is reliant on fishing for predictions. Being able to synergize with really popular bulky Water pivots, most notably Slowking, mitigates a lot of CBLoom's issue. The SlowPivot out to Breloom gets it in safely. IMO, this increased reliability to abuse Breloom's core strengths (Spore, 130 Atk + CB, priority), warrants a rise back into B+.
 
I really wonder why :skeledirge: has dropped to A- for the tier. An Unaware bulky special attacker with good typing and attacks could be devastating.
Fire/Ghost is great offensive typing and does have some very useful defensive utility - however, there's also the matter of its weaknesses to Ghost, Water, Ground, Rock, and Dark-type attacks. Walking Wake and H-Zoro, both new additions, nail it super effectively, and Walking Wake quad resists STAB Torch Song while H-Zoro is immune to STAB Shadow Ball/Hex. Also, the meta as a whole has become better equipped to handle Ghost types due to threats such as Gholdengo and Tera-Ghost Garg, so it's not as easy to switch Skeledirge in as safely as before.

Skeledirge is still a great Pokemon, but his issues are harder to ignore now than they were earlier.
 
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I don't want to completely derail the thread, but since this has come up again, is it really necessary that we address new players this way? I really thought everyone had moved past this. What is this user supposed to gain from lurking more? There are plenty of resources (SQSA, sample teams, Strategy Dex) they could access or discussion threads (metagame thread, good cores, bazaar, etc.) they could participate in with their current level of knowledge. Maybe if you start referring people to those instead of laughing at their posts and telling them to lurk more then people will actually want to stick around long enough to become better at the game. Also not to be harsh but it appears you've been a member of the site hardly past a year. Doesn't much give you claim to veteran status here.
don't want to derail either so I'll leave this as my only reply

The very reason I suggested lurking more is that they cannot really participate in the VR Thread with their current level of knowledge. The message I replied to was frankly objectively wrong (Shocks isn't even D Rank) and didn't add anything of value. I'd welcome anyone properly providing the thread with useful insights with open arms, but everyone can see from miles away that this user was not exactly very knowledgeable, so I just kindly suggested them to get a bit more experience with how stuff works (both the forums and the actual metagame, I don't think "you have to play OU to explain how things work in OU" is a controversial statement) to avoid repetition of that. But if you think there's value to someone posting how a B Rank mon is apparently D Rank because a suicide lead walls it, you do you, but those are pretty weird standards for valuable participation.

Also before I made my account I did lurk a ton, just didn't make an account because I didn't really want to add anything myself (even now it's not like I post that much) and I'll never claim I'm a veteran or anything but I have actually seen the way things work around here, thank you.

Listing resources I could have explicitly linked is valid though, I could have done that part better (not that you actually linked them in your comment either though).

I do want to highlight there's nothing wrong with being new and we all have to start somewhere, but thrilling as it is to just jump in and give your thoughts right away, fact of the matter is that without experience that's just not valuable for the VR thread (the metagame discussion is its own thing because that one's not primarily intended to be used as a resource). Nonetheless I didn't just go "gtfo git gud scrub" or anything, I just calmly told them to lurk a bit more (I admit the haha react on their post was unnecessary but that's it), so no idea why you think you deserve to be this hostile towards me over that.
 
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don't want to derail either so I'll leave this as my only reply

The very reason I suggested lurking more is that they cannot really participate in the VR Thread with their current level of knowledge. The message I replied to was frankly objectively wrong (Shocks isn't even D Rank) and didn't add anything of value. I'd welcome anyone properly providing the thread with useful insights with open arms, but everyone can see from miles away that this user was not exactly very knowledgeable, so I just kindly suggested them to get a bit more experience with how stuff works (both the forums and the actual metagame, I don't think "you have to play OU to explain how things work in OU" is a controversial statement) to avoid repetition of that. But if you think there's value to someone posting how a B Rank mon is apparently D Rank because a suicide lead walls it, you do you, but those are pretty weird standards for valuable participation.

Also before I made my account I did lurk a ton, just didn't make an account because I didn't really want to add anything myself (even now it's not like I post that much) and I'll never claim I'm a veteran or anything but I have actually seen the way things work around here, thank you.

Listing resources I could have explicitly linked is valid though, I could have done that part better (not that you actually linked them in your comment either though).

I do want to highlight there's nothing wrong with being new and we all have to start somewhere, but thrilling as it is to just jump in and give your thoughts right away, fact of the matter is that without experience that's just not valuable for the VR thread (the metagame discussion is its own thing because that one's not primarily intended to be used as a resource). Nonetheless I didn't just go "gtfo git gud scrub" or anything, I just calmly told them to lurk a bit more (I admit the haha react on their post was unnecessary but that's it), so no idea why you think you deserve to be this hostile towards me over that.
Now I apologize greatly for aiding with the derailment, just wanted to point out how true this is. Anyone looking at my history can tell my level of experience in this game. I lurked for quite a time before making even amateur level posts, and lurked more before I started asking questions (as many of those were answered by lurking).

This site (or at least this portion that I frequent) values knowledgeable discussion, with everyone on roughly the same page. I am not on everyone's "level" so to speak, so I don't chime in for the sake of joining a discussion (not counting now of course).

I don't feel Roaring Moon is much of a threat. I wall it with Dondozo and boom, no more threat. Those words carry little weight when you look at my elo of 1150 or so. My experience may be what it is, but I'm also dealing people setting up Dragon Dance on Dondozo. R.Moon isn't scary when you make bomehead plays like that. I'm not gonna enter a VR discussion over R.Moon's placement if that's what I bring to the table, it's borderline irrelevant.
 
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Srn

The Monstrous Bird of New England
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
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yohohoho March usage stats are here and uh...
| 1 | Great Tusk | 57.60723%
| 2 | Kingambit | 44.66528%
(gen9 ou 1825 stats)
can we ban kingambit already lmao

On a more serious (ban tera instead) note I think we need to address glimmora
| 8 | Glimmora | 20.30035%
This is a crazy amount of usage for what is most of the time just a dedicated hazard lead. This is up a fair bit from last February usage:
| 10 | Glimmora | 16.91093%
I think this change reflects how much more offensive the meta has become from February to March, and how important and dominant glimmora continues to be. It is without contest the best HO lead, and any competition that cannot beat glimmora isn't worth entertaining. The few that do really don't get much attention either: leads like meowscarada, greninja, iron treads, sandy shocks, great tusk etc are pretty few and far in between. I think glimmora's dominance as a lead and importance in HO which has gotten stronger should be reflected in the ranks.
Glimmora A- --> A

Now for the other support mon that HO loves, the worm...Here's february's usage
| 23 | Orthworm | 9.22112%
And this is March
| 13 | Orthworm | 15.42322%
Another big bump in usage that reflects how much more offensive the meta has become. People have realized how well orthworm checks dangerous sweepers like baxcalibur, roaring moon, and standard dnite and are now adapting a bit with taunt moon and tera fire fire punch dnite, but worm remains a disgusting offense enabler and check to key threats. Shed tail HO is just really dominant and scary, as we have proven to ourselves that this move really is good enough to use this goofy worm guy. The meta has gotten way more dragon centric, and with orthworm both checking and enabling key dd threats, I think orthworm needs to rise up too.
Orthworm A- --> A

TL;DR The meta has continued to get more offensive and fast paced, and thus the best support mons on HO teams need to raise.
 
On a more serious (ban tera instead) note I think we need to address glimmora
| 8 | Glimmora | 20.30035%
This is a crazy amount of usage for what is most of the time just a dedicated hazard lead. This is up a fair bit from last February usage:
| 10 | Glimmora | 16.91093%
I think this change reflects how much more offensive the meta has become from February to March, and how important and dominant glimmora continues to be. It is without contest the best HO lead, and any competition that cannot beat glimmora isn't worth entertaining. The few that do really don't get much attention either: leads like meowscarada, greninja, iron treads, sandy shocks, great tusk etc are pretty few and far in between. I think glimmora's dominance as a lead and importance in HO which has gotten stronger should be reflected in the ranks.
Glimmora A- --> A
I'm somewhat mixed on Glimm rising at this time, mainly because it is extremely exploitable for some key Pokemon that are rising up in popularity like Tera Steel Hydreigon and Orthworm to use an opportunity to setup or pass Shed Tail. Corv's higher usage also does it no favors, as that mon doesn't have much issue clearing away / preventing its hazards compared to Tusks / Hatterene.
 
Now for the other support mon that HO loves, the worm...Here's february's usage
| 23 | Orthworm | 9.22112%
And this is March
| 13 | Orthworm | 15.42322%
Another big bump in usage that reflects how much more offensive the meta has become. People have realized how well orthworm checks dangerous sweepers like baxcalibur, roaring moon, and standard dnite and are now adapting a bit with taunt moon and tera fire fire punch dnite, but worm remains a disgusting offense enabler and check to key threats. Shed tail HO is just really dominant and scary, as we have proven to ourselves that this move really is good enough to use this goofy worm guy. The meta has gotten way more dragon centric, and with orthworm both checking and enabling key dd threats, I think orthworm needs to rise up too.
Orthworm A- --> A

TL;DR The meta has continued to get more offensive and fast paced, and thus the best support mons on HO teams need to raise.
Disagreeing with this one on the grounds that Orth just got another meteoric rise (all the way from B- to A-). Really not enough has changed in the what, two weeks? since that warrants it another rise on top of that. And sure March usage stats weren't out yet but you could notice the mon was seeing use by just... playing the tier and seeing it was good lol, so another rise so shortly after the last where most of the arguments are usage and stuff that applied last rise already sounds redundant. After all "HO good" and "Dragon good so Orth good" are probably the main reasons it jumped an entire rank to begin with.
 

Srn

The Monstrous Bird of New England
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
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I'm somewhat mixed on Glimm rising at this time, mainly because it is extremely exploitable for some key Pokemon that are rising up in popularity like Tera Steel Hydreigon and Orthworm to use an opportunity to setup or pass Shed Tail. Corv's higher usage also does it no favors, as that mon doesn't have much issue clearing away / preventing its hazards compared to Tusks / Hatterene.
It's true that worm is a shed tail pass vs glimm, but the fact remains that glimmora's sash+toxic debris remains intact and thus a lot of physical mons will still hesitate to set up+attack, not to mention glimmora will break the sub vs dnite, bax, kingambit, roaring moon, etc.

As far as tera steel hydreigon goes, I think forcing the tera turn 1 is a win in my book, especially for offense, now that your positioning is actually rewarded and you don't have to make risky scouting plays.

Defog corv is pretty suboptimal, and between iron defense/bulk up, body press/brave bird, u-turn, and other utility options like thief or taunt, I find it very hard to slot in defog these days. Gholdengo's usage has fallen but it's still very common, and a defog corv is probably something that offense teams can easily exploit.

Disagreeing with this one on the grounds that Orth just got another meteoric rise (all the way from B- to A-). Really not enough has changed in the what, two weeks? since that warrants it another rise on top of that. And sure March usage stats weren't out yet but you could notice the mon was seeing use by just... playing the tier and seeing it was good lol, so another rise so shortly after the last where most of the arguments are usage and stuff that applied last rise already sounds redundant. After all "HO good" and "Dragon good so Orth good" are probably the main reasons it jumped an entire rank to begin with.
I think it should've rose from B- to A. It's about as threatening/influential as mons like bax, cinderace, ting-lu, and rotom-wash in my book. Being the cornerpiece of so many HO teams is that good.
 

Gonna nominate this bad boy to A+, been running max hp and spd Rotom with hydro, volt, stored power, and nasty plot. This set actually breaks through mons that normally would sit on rotom. 2 nasty plots and you ohko annoying
, and 2hkos
. Rotom with its other sets just provides so much utility and I think its usage and diverse sets should bump it up. It being able to break through would be counters is what really deserves it to be bumped in my eyes.
 
I haven't tried it yet, what makes Quagsire OU this gen, even if only barely? What does it check? I see it as a lesser Dondozo at first glance.
 
I haven't tried it yet, what makes Quagsire OU this gen, even if only barely? What does it check? I see it as a lesser Dondozo at first glance.
Well, first of all Quag ain't OU, it's usable in OU and Stall only, but, while it's only usable on stall and it's the not the massive middle finger to physical attackers as Donzo is, Quag has a few things that make you consider using it over Donzo. It has Toxic, reliable recover and hazards so it can do a bit more than just sit there and eat physical attacks like donzo does also it's has the great typing of Water/Ground giving it an electric immunity plus a couple of other resists so in a pinch it can say face a Hands, Sandy or a mon locked in a electric move like a Dhengo, Valiant etc.
 
A- --> UR

Nice Shed Tail ban lol
I think you are all discarding this Mon too soon. Of course, it won,t be fitting in many teams now and has severe 4 move slots, but:

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Dragon Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Orthworm: 118-139 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- 46% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery < Very few Mons avoid the 2HKO from this.

Can put 1000 hazards vs Glimmora and also Clodsire and Ting-Lu.Some Garchomps too.
Tera Poison should at least in theory, totally wall Valiant.
Forces Kingambit to Tera, since it has Body Press and huge defense.
With Restalk switches into Amoonguss easily.
Walls Iron Treads (doesn,t prevent Spin, but Iron Treads can,t get by this worm).
Walls some Dragonites if it has Iron Defense.
Puts hazards vs Hatterene.

Idk, if Mimikyu (big crap except vs some rare HOs) of all things is ranked, the worm can still be C- or even C at least.
 
:orthworm:: A -> C

On a serious note, it lost a lot of what it can do without Shed Tail. Sure, it retains its defensive utility--but without Shed Tail, it fails to convert the switches it forces into actual momentum beyond Stealth Rock, Spikes (maybe) and weak attacks. It still checks things, but it has to be more careful with what it does because it's now quite a bit more passive.
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
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Moewscarada A- -> A

Meowscarada is a pretty nice benefactor of the Shed Tail ban. Orthworm was an annoying switch in that could make it not pull its weight in HO mus. Now Orthworm is a niche pick again, so Meowscarada gets to do what it wants to do with its speed tier. Banded and Scarf sets feel better without having to worry about that Orthworm getting a free Shed Tail. Now it gets to truly flex its speed stat against HO and be the revenge killer that it was meant to be.

Also hazards lead and its other sets are still solid, its always been pretty aight.
 
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Moewscarada A- -> A

Meowscarada is a pretty nice benefactor of the Shed Tail ban. Orthworm was an annoying switch in that could make it not pull its weight in HO mus. Now Orthworm is a niche pick again, so Meowscarada gets to do what it wants to do with its speed tier. Banded and Scarf sets feel better without having to worry about that Orthworm getting a free Shed Tail. Now it gets to truly flex its speed stat against HO and be the revenge killer that it was meant to be.

Also hazards lead and its other sets are still solid, its always been pretty aight.
I agree w/ Meow rising, but its debatable whether it benefits all that much from the Shed Tail ban. While its MU vs Orth wasn't great by any means, it did do a fine job of preventing Orth from passing with Taunt and could Knock Off Orth's Sitrus Berry, making it much harder for the standard set to pass w/ Shed Tail later on (though restalk sets could get around that). From my exp, offensive Black Glasses Meow was itself a good recipient of Shed Tail too since it could get more oppurtunities to fire off its strong attack from the support of a slow Shed Tail, which brought it in safely and gave it protection from potentional strong attacks from the opponent. Def not in the same tier as other recipients like Baxcalibur, Polteageist, or Roaring Moon, but it was an option that made its offensive abilities much more potent.
 
:grimmsnarl: C+ –> C

While there is already roughly 3 people using this mon, it has been hurt badly by the loss of Shed Tail, because Shed Tail worked really well with screens. Now that S-Tail is gone, screens also took a hit.

:skeledirge: A- –> B+

Dirge was great at countering shed tail, since it beats a lot of the common abusers and its torch song went through the substitute. Not much else to say

:orthworm: A- –> C

this is obvious

:alomomola: B- –> B
:blissey: C –> C+

2 of the 6 'core' stall mons that can't do much against Orthworm, now that orthworm is kinda bad it's slightly more viable to use stall than before. You still shouldn't use it, but just know that it is a viable option.

Iron Valiant can stay at A+ because it's so good without shed tail already
 
:skeledirge: A- –> B+

Dirge was great at countering shed tail, since it beats a lot of the common abusers and its torch song went through the substitute. Not much else to say
Dirge isn't/wasn't just a shed tail answer, nor was it the best one long term because it'd get overwhelmed. It's a very customizable defensive presence that's also one of the best burn spreaders in the tier, and helps play around a ton of threatening pokemon. The ban of shed tail should slow things down a bit, which also aids Dirge. There's no reason to drop it. If anything the mon is better suited to rise.
 
Dirge isn't/wasn't just a shed tail answer, nor was it the best one long term because it'd get overwhelmed. It's a very customizable defensive presence that's also one of the best burn spreaders in the tier, and helps play around a ton of threatening pokemon. The ban of shed tail should slow things down a bit, which also aids Dirge. There's no reason to drop it. If anything the mon is better suited to rise.
agreed, one less matchup dirge is relied on for = more it's able to do against everything else. no shed tail also means way fewer subs, which means the sub set has less competition as an offensive sub mon.
 
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