Resource SV OU Viability Ranking Thread [ UPDATE: POST #751 ]

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Taka

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When has that never been the case? People always knew what Dondozo could do, that's why everybody adapted to it and it became easy to play around. Dondozo hasn't discovered any new set so it's not doing anything different. It's still as passive as ever and hard to fit on most teams
the fact is that even though dondozo isn't amazing, it still walls a large portion of setup mons when played right, including baxcalibur/roaring moon/kingambit/BU tusk, volcarona variants without giga drain, dragonite, ceruledge
 
When has that never been the case? People always knew what Dondozo could do, that's why everybody adapted to it and it became easy to play around. Dondozo hasn't discovered any new set so it's not doing anything different. It's still as passive as ever and hard to fit on most teams
Being passive and doing the same thing doesn't inherently make a mon bad whatsoever.
It's also v easy for balance/BO to fit on teams as it's the premier phys wall of the gen...

the fact is that even though dondozo isn't amazing, it still walls a large portion of setup mons when played right, including baxcalibur/roaring moon/kingambit/BU tusk, volcarona variants without giga drain, dragonite, ceruledge
>not amazing
>1v1s literally the biggest phys threats in the meta

Pick one lol

Don Bozo needs to be worn down and played around, which is possible and stops it from being an S mon, but if you only have phys attackers left and ur opp has Dr. Bozo chillin at full HP you just lost the game.
Put some respect on this stupid ass fish's name lol
 
From my experience on high ladder, I really am not seeing roaring moon much at all, and gholdengo+dnite continue to be very strong A+ mons.
As others have stated, bax is often more threatening and much less reliant on tera than roaring moon. Is the speed booster taunt set the reason for this rise? I just can't think of a reason why roaring moon would rise AFTER the shed tail ban.

Gholdengo is imo still an A+ mon, it continues to be a lynchpin in hstack teams and people are starting to explore the specs set, which I personally am finding to be amazing. With shed tail off the map and hstack harassing fatter teams which are more common after a shed tail ban, I don't see why this is dropping.

Dnite dropping I can kind of understand if you're sticking with the same dd eq espeed roost (although this set improved with the shed tail ban), but it has definitely gotten more dangerous and flexible sets since the last update. The DD/dclaw/fire punch/encore set with tera fire adds another dimension of tera horseshit to dnite, and the counterplay to tera fire is much different than to the standard dd set. We've seen an uptick in encore on azu, ival, dnite, and scream tail as a way to annoy garg and other fat mons. And finally, Pinkacross and I made a team with cb dnite tera blast flying which is quite frankly cracked. Pinka has reached and stayed in top 5 on the ladder for about a week, and it's a criminally underrated set that absolutely crushes stall and many other fat teams. So take all those 3 solid sets, throw in that weird special roost set too, and it's a really versatile mon. All in all, dnite should be remaining A+ and idk why its dropping.

Now about arbo...
View attachment 514252
-Finch, March 23, 2023

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-Finch, today

We truly live in a society

No seriously garg back to tearing it up after the shed tail ban and arbo still isn't even on the map? Do I need to provide more high ladder replays of it putting in work in the modern meta? There are some recent trends like av pex and amnesia clodsire which make the old sub 3 attack set worse, but that is why I've subbed in leech seed and it's still been doin great.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1855619054-yrubs4qi6fr1we2mz28i7dka0zjp5uspw You can see here it harasses a bulkier team with av pex, refusing to be rk'd by pult until the games basically over.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1855486548-u9enggvmkxto42yjlgz4sfo3zgap8pvpw While I do lose this match, arbo with tera was able to beat a scary NP gholdengo and even after tera fire, it didn't lose to ting-lu 1v1 as it heals up a ton with giga+weakens the next eq with terrain.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1855056914-av4sv42zdqumec5dkyamj9fprao71pfpw It's able to hold its own vs an NP hydreigon and takes a few hits from sylveon

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1854393375-5xx22q5sxg1moqc05441btlciz185vppw This was an exciting one vs storm zone, where arbo got crit and had to be sacked, but the grassy terrain heals gholdengo enough to live more rounds of spikes.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1854276807-fthdiyx97uj8v5p03g2swj5lhkj31fypw Corrosion glimmora showing how cool of a partner it is here and catching corv with a surprise toxic, which helps sub seed arbo be the bastard it was this game

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1853945524-qzz8f0dxeqndgmwd4153o1fbkjazgs8pw Here you can see me recklessly switching arboliva into alomomola because thanks to grassy terrain+leftovers, I never have to worry about whirlpool chip adding up. I can click leech seed and heal up my friends to offset the chip damage stall wants to dish out, and then you can see here how effective the cb dnite set I mentioned before is (jump to turn 73)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1851544244-citpiuadj3sihs678nerzusxjdeqmuspw Again, arboliva harasses av pex, gets over it with the help of corrosion glimmora, and especially on turn 35 it can just stay in on scarf make it rain and force gholdengo out.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1859074681-v4yavm5lj4qee3we2x9n6efexoe8bzepw Even in a bad matchup for arboliva, it's able to weaken WW+deny agility+power up scarf meow's flower trick to keep it under control. Might've done more if it wasn't crit, as I didn't need to tera this game.


Looking at the current VR, I would personally place this mon at B. It's performance is comparable to breloom and sandy shocks, pokemon that definitely need team support but can be really scary and solid. I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to provide to show how viable this mon is.
I just want to echo this. Been busy irl and away from ladder for a week-ish but without shed tail I really do think bax is more threatening than moon. Dnite is still everywhere and the more sets pop up the scarier it gets.
I have been using less dengo recently so I can't speak as much on it but was still seeing it a ton, and fighting more specs which was consisistantly annoying to handle.
I'm also an arboliva fan and it does quite well in the meta. Haven't used leech seed too much yet but when I get the chance I will be messing with it.
 
Being passive and doing the same thing doesn't inherently make a mon bad whatsoever.
It's also v easy for balance/BO to fit on teams as it's the premier phys wall of the gen...
As it has been from Day 1. Nothing has changed. In fact, HO/setup sweepers have become worse due to Shed Tail ban. Never said Dozo is bad, but there's a reason it's been dropping in usage for monthss since most teams can get past it quite easily. This isn't November/December anymore
 
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Don Bozo needs to be worn down and played around, which is possible and stops it from being an S mon, but if you only have phys attackers left and ur opp has Dr. Bozo chillin at full HP you just lost the game.
Put some respect on this stupid ass fish's name lol
Let's not oversell the fish here. It honestly arguably peaked when it was early gen and ranked A, but people know how to deal with it by now. It's pretty consistent vs physical threats which makes it good for what it does, but this thing will never touch S because its just too passive and flawed. Not only is it hard to justify any set without rest because it basically flops as a long-term phys check without it, but running non boots items makes it way easier to push on the backfoot with hazards. Status is a headache for any Don set, taunt and encore shuts down curse attempts, Skeledirge ironically beats Don and water absorb Clod sits on curse rest talk Don. Garganacl salt cures sea life, Amoonguss walls it, Meowscarada breaks through it with flower trick.

My point is, fish is good at stuffing a lot of physical threats, no one is calling it bad, but its got a lot of flaws that hold it back from being ranked higher.
 
As it has been from Day 1. Nothing has changed. In fact, HO/setup sweepers have become worse due to Shed Tail ban. Never said Dozo is bad, but there's a reason it's been dropping in usage for monthss since most teams can get past it quite easily. This isn't November/December anymore
Let's not oversell the fish here. It honestly arguably peaked when it was early gen and ranked A, but people know how to deal with it by now. It's pretty consistent vs physical threats which makes it good for what it does, but this thing will never touch S because its just too passive and flawed. Not only is it hard to justify any set without rest because it basically flops as a long-term phys check without it, but running non boots items makes it way easier to push on the backfoot with hazards. Status is a headache for any Don set, taunt and encore shuts down curse attempts, Skeledirge ironically beats Don and water absorb Clod sits on curse rest talk Don. Garganacl salt cures sea life, Amoonguss walls it, Meowscarada breaks through it with flower trick.

My point is, fish is good at stuffing a lot of physical threats, no one is calling it bad, but its got a lot of flaws that hold it back from being ranked higher.
I'm not saying it deserves s rank or anything but my point about the shed tail ban means you can keep it in the back since theres less setup sweepers you need to check in the midgame. Yes it could always do a wincon set but if roaring moon got behind a shed tail youd almost be forced to bring it out early. There were a lot of situations like that where dozo had to check something and it wasnt healthy enough after to do its job late game. With less setup running around you dont have to worry about constantly bringing it in on hazards, so you can run leftovers. A lot of pokemon that deal with dozo are usually brought out early game, just deal with them before recklessly trying to setup curse.
 
Questions:
  1. With the removal of Shed Tail, I would've thought that Roaring Moon would stay as is in terms of VR. What's primarily driving the rise in ranking?
  2. In my mind, I would've thought that Bax would be S- given its two sets, DD and SD. What elements of the metagame are holding it back from reaching S-?
  3. Understandably, the TeraNormal ESpeed DNite sets are starting to become less effective over time, which would warrant a drop in VR. Does Dragonite's other sets (CB, Special + Roost) not offset the falloff of DDNite's effectiveness?
  4. In the VR, we see multiple elements of Sun dipping in VR ... except Scream Tail. The instances that I've seen Tail were on Sun builds, so what other team archetypes is Scream Tail finding effectiveness in?
  5. On a similar note, I've always thought that Screens + Haxorus would go hand-in-hand because of the latter's ability to break Unaware Pokemon. Outside of Screens, what other team archetypes is Haxorus seeing usage in?
  6. In his BaxHO RMT, Mav mentioned that Iron Moth is one of the few necessary Pokemon on HO because it is a grounded Poison that works well on HO. Would its ability to be a TSpike absorber on Offense (and HO, both of which are very effective in this current meta) warrant a rise in VR? What elements hold Iron Moth back from taking that step up?


MixChomp has been a thing since Gen IV. It's a Mixed wallbreaker, so it's not supposed to be a great Special Attacker. When it's a top threat in the metagame, MixChomp/ChainChomp works well because it baits the Physical walls/Steel-types that switch into a CB or SD Garchomp, only to be nailed by a Draco Meteor or a Fire Blast.

The set itself is not bad, but its reliant on Garchomp's threat level in the metagame. In SV, its Band, Scarf, and even SubSD sets aren't top shelf to begin with. Furthermore, we have a metagame that's actually fairly well-prepared for Garchomp overall, regardless of set.
Can someone from VR Council answer these questions please (other than Finch since he said he's got other IRL stuff going on)?
 
Let's not oversell the fish here. It honestly arguably peaked when it was early gen and ranked A, but people know how to deal with it by now. It's pretty consistent vs physical threats which makes it good for what it does, but this thing will never touch S because its just too passive and flawed. Not only is it hard to justify any set without rest because it basically flops as a long-term phys check without it, but running non boots items makes it way easier to push on the backfoot with hazards. Status is a headache for any Don set, taunt and encore shuts down curse attempts, Skeledirge ironically beats Don and water absorb Clod sits on curse rest talk Don. Garganacl salt cures sea life, Amoonguss walls it, Meowscarada breaks through it with flower trick.

My point is, fish is good at stuffing a lot of physical threats, no one is calling it bad, but its got a lot of flaws that hold it back from being ranked higher.
Regarding Dondozo in particular it has greatly benefited from the discovery of just how useful scream tail really is as a partner. Scream tail allows dondozo to fix many of its flaws and they manage to act as a relatively easy to fit defensive core that can handle each other's threats well. Dondozo + Screamtail is very hard to break through, and considering how many of the top mons in the meta ( Kingambit, Great tusk, Rotom, Tinglu, AV pex and Hat off the top of my head) Are enhanced with wish support it makes Dondozo's life so much easier and makes it a lot more viable as it has a good overall matchup into the tiers scariest physical attackers who threaten the balance of more standard bulky teams that would include mons in that bracket

TLDR: Scream tail is a stupid fat blob and dondozington eats the wishes of small children and becomes unkillable letting it run stuff like curse + 2 attacks and protect or other non rest sets making it more useful long term and a lot less passive.
 

Lily

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  1. With the removal of Shed Tail, I would've thought that Roaring Moon would stay as is in terms of VR. What's primarily driving the rise in ranking?
  2. In my mind, I would've thought that Bax would be S- given its two sets, DD and SD. What elements of the metagame are holding it back from reaching S-?
  3. Understandably, the TeraNormal ESpeed DNite sets are starting to become less effective over time, which would warrant a drop in VR. Does Dragonite's other sets (CB, Special + Roost) not offset the falloff of DDNite's effectiveness?
  4. In the VR, we see multiple elements of Sun dipping in VR ... except Scream Tail. The instances that I've seen Tail were on Sun builds, so what other team archetypes is Scream Tail finding effectiveness in?
  5. On a similar note, I've always thought that Screens + Haxorus would go hand-in-hand because of the latter's ability to break Unaware Pokemon. Outside of Screens, what other team archetypes is Haxorus seeing usage in?
  6. In his BaxHO RMT, Mav mentioned that Iron Moth is one of the few necessary Pokemon on HO because it is a grounded Poison that works well on HO. Would its ability to be a TSpike absorber on Offense (and HO, both of which are very effective in this current meta) warrant a rise in VR? What elements hold Iron Moth back from taking that step up?
You wanted someone on the VR council to handle these, and that isn't me! But I hope I can help shed some light for you regardless.

1. Roaring Moon is still an absolutely enormous threat post-Shed Tail now that people have realised just how scary the Acrobatics set can be. With Corviknight struggling, there isn't a whole lot that can take the combination of Acrobatics + EQ save for Rotom-W which doesn't like Crunch to begin with, and you can never truly know what it's running until it reveals all 4 moves since EQ and Crunch are pretty interchangeable. Typical physical checks like Dondozo flounder into it because of how strong Protosynthesis Acrobatics is, and because of the crazy Speed tier it holds, it's very difficult for offense to revenge kill it if it gets a DD since even Booster Energy Iron Valiant can't do it. The best bet is Kingambit but you have to force it to Tera before you can even do that; it's not like you can rely too well on the "just don't give it a DD" strategy, either, bc it's very bulky and has enough resistances to find free chances on enough common mons. Now, it's certainly fair to say that it could fit in either A or A+, but its threat level is ridiculously high; nothing else in the tier is quite as much of a game ender as Roaring Moon is. Stuff that needs that level of respect probably belongs in A+.

2. Mediocre Speed tier, bad defensive typing pre-Tera, can sometimes struggle to pick up KOs at +1, can struggle with picking item too since it wants both Boots and Loaded Dice (at least on DD). Extremely good possibly broken Pokemon but there's enough there to keep it from dominating every game it shows up in, and it's roughly on the same level as the other giant threats in A+ like Moon and Valiant.

3. I don't really think those sets are on the same level of consistency & threat as stuff like Dragapult and Iron Valiant at al. CB is slow and kinda prediction reliant (with very good payoff) and Special w/ Roost is good but not A+ good by any means on its own. The versatility could maybe take it to A+ but I'd assume the VR team didn't feel it does any single thing well enough for an A+ level.

4. Scream Tail's been seen on a lot of fat teams lately alongside stuff like Dondozo, including a very popular 6 which had (I think) Cinderace, Scream Tail, Dondozo, Toxapex, Hydreigon, Great Tusk. It's a great support mon bc fast Encore + Wish is just always helpful and its typing lets it be a decentish check to stuff like Dragonite, Baxcalibur, Iron Valiant sometimes, Hydreigon etc - A- feels a little bit high to me personally but it has definitely found a real niche in the metagame outside of sun

5. It saw some use on Shed Tail stuff before the ban, dunno about anything other than screens anymore. It can theoretically fit on those Meowscarada/Greninja lead offenses but I don't really think it offers anything over Baxcalibur and co there.

6. That's just one person's opinion, ftr; HO teams have other ways to deny Toxic Spikes from going up (stacking Taunt, using Boots/Lum, saving their Glimmora if applicable, etc.). A lot of them won't bother with a TSpike absorber. That said, it's a very good role for Iron Moth to have and is certainly a huge part of what gives it good viability on HO; it's just not mandatory and HO alone isn't enough to drag it up to A anyway. It's still pretty good on other styles, but it has a lot of issues like picking its Tera type, its item slot (booster energy / boots), and one of the worst cases of 4MSS present in OU. Great mon but A- is probably right for it, it has a few too many issues to be super duper good.
 

memesketch

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Volc dropping is a bit interesting for me? what changed in the last 2 months for it to drop? It's still a threat and abuses tera hella. I guess I don't understand the drop at all it's definitely S- at worst. It has about 7 viable sets you can run and they vary with Tera Blast being abused. If you're going off usage which shouldn't be the case it sits out right in the top 10, so people are using it and with Valiant rising it becomes the best answer for Special Attacking Valiant.
I would say the meta is a bit more accustomed to Volc now. Between the resurgence of Ting-Lu and Unaware Clodsire after the Wake rage died down, the rise of AV Pex, SpDef Twave Rotom-W, and bulky Cinderace, and the steady presence of Dirge and Garg (both of which have actually risen a bit in usage in the past month), the options to wall and pivot around Volc have gotten significantly better. Offense has various staples like Dnite, Azu, Band Pult, Roaring Moon, Tera Dragon Bax, and Tera Fire Kingambit that can keep it in check too. While Volc does abuse Tera like crazy and have a set for almost every check, whatever it does choose to run inevitably leaves it open to other checks, and most good teams right now have multiple Pokemon that deal with different Volc sets. The current samples are good examples of this – cores like Dirge + Ting-Lu, Tera Fire Gambit + Rotom-W / Pex / Dnite, Cinderace + AV Pex + Hydreigon, and Rotom-W + Roaring Moon to name a few. Volc is still very, very good but it's more limited right now and can't often take over games as easily so I think the drop is justified.
 

njnp

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Hey Everyone! I find it difficult to participate in the viability rankings convo generally from an objective viewpoint, I still want to participate in the convo actively as a VR ranking member and especially now as a council member. After each slate ill make my rankings public like I'm doing with this post (click on the photo for full ranking). Just quote this post asking why I ranked a specific mon a specific rank and I'll answer as best as I can. Thanks Guys!​
 
View attachment 515359
Hey Everyone! I find it difficult to participate in the viability rankings convo generally from an objective viewpoint, I still want to participate in the convo actively as a VR ranking member and especially now as a council member. After each slate ill make my rankings public like I'm doing with this post (click on the photo for full ranking). Just quote this post asking why I ranked a specific mon a specific rank and I'll answer as best as I can. Thanks Guys!​
What makes Sandy Shocks and Clodsire both B rank mons in your opinion?
 

njnp

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What makes Sandy Shocks and Clodsire both B rank mons in your opinion?
Sandy Shocks is a very awkward Pokémon to build around, which is why we don’t see it as much. It can be very effective and has a lot of good match ups but it’s cumbersome to build with without opening up a weakness to your team. Your hope with using it generally is it accomplishes more then what it brings against you. For instance it shines vs balance builds that rely on toxapex/corv structures but usually gets overwhelmed by hyper offensive structures quickly like psy spam or booster spam.

Clodsire in my opinion is pretty bad, personally prefer to stay away. It is a pure bait mon in the sense that it allows free subs to Pokémon like Hydregion and Baxcalibur, while also allowing strong attackers such as Great Tusk, LO Chomp, Banded Roaring Moon and more in for free. It’s mainly in this tier for its utility component as it has a fantastic movepool and is an important member to the stall community that we the council must protect. Clodsire on your team really opens you up to a lot of things that very few Pokémon can cover which is why you see it having the same teammates like Garg very often. It can end up being a liability more then a benefit in a lot of match ups so I don’t view it highly at all.
 
View attachment 515359
Hey Everyone! I find it difficult to participate in the viability rankings convo generally from an objective viewpoint, I still want to participate in the convo actively as a VR ranking member and especially now as a council member. After each slate ill make my rankings public like I'm doing with this post (click on the photo for full ranking). Just quote this post asking why I ranked a specific mon a specific rank and I'll answer as best as I can. Thanks Guys!​
What's your logic behind Meowscarada in B+?
 
View attachment 515359
Hey Everyone! I find it difficult to participate in the viability rankings convo generally from an objective viewpoint, I still want to participate in the convo actively as a VR ranking member and especially now as a council member. After each slate ill make my rankings public like I'm doing with this post (click on the photo for full ranking). Just quote this post asking why I ranked a specific mon a specific rank and I'll answer as best as I can. Thanks Guys!​
Why do you have Glimmora and Scream Tail in A tier? I think they’re pretty solid but not on the level of meta relevance as Ting-Lu or Pex. I’m also curious to know why Meowscarada is at B+ and why Greninja is tiered the same as it.
 

njnp

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What's your logic behind Meowscarada in B+?
Got asked this earlier in the Discord OU server so gonna relay my response here

“I feel currently with how high corviknight, toxapex, & amoonguss usage is meow doesn’t really punish a ton of teams currently, most ho structures welcome its presence as a set up bait opportunity, its sash lead set has fallen off in usage. I’m not high on it.”

I will further add that Meow has an amazing speed tier but isn’t strong enough to revenge booster sweepers like valiant, tera fly roaring moon, or iron moth generally without significant chip. There is also the rise of most tusks now have a fighting move due to the heavy rise of eject pack tusk so it doesn’t get to punish tusk by “safely” switching in as frequently as it use to as well. Don’t get me wrong it can still be quite effective vs a lot of builds but currently I don’t view it highly in the current meta state.
 
corviknight, toxapex, & amoonguss usage is meow doesn’t really punish a ton of teams currently
(Sorry for the added question, I'm just curious)
Does Knock Off not suitably annoy these three to the point of keeping it somewhat useful in matches versus these mons?
 

njnp

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Why do you have Glimmora and Scream Tail in A tier? I think they’re pretty solid but not on the level of meta relevance as Ting-Lu or Pex. I’m also curious to know why Meowscarada is at B+ and why Greninja is tiered the same as it.
Was asked about Scream Tail earlier in the OU Discord server so gonna relay my response here

“Scream Tails wish support is amazing along with encore. It’s anti sun, anti ho, and anti a lot of bulky offenses that depend on a particular mon being weakened but wish support negating that damage really can wear down a team/mess up a gameplan. Scream Tail also negates how effective garg can be by encoring it and accomplish other things in the meta like slow down special booster valiant, while also being a threat with a booster of its own or sub cm”

Glimmora’s best ability in my opinion is under explored and that’s corrosion. Most teams have ways to absorb toxic spikes currently or even worse can send them back your way with court change. Glimorra being able to toxic Corviknight and Toxapex is so valuable while still being able to get up hazards or even potentially removing them if you need it. It got better with the shed tail ban for sure. My boy Vert got #1 recently with corrosion Glimorra and if I recall Pinco did a recent RMT with it helping her to #1 as well.
 

njnp

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(Sorry for the added question, I'm just curious)
Does Knock Off not suitably annoy these three to the point of keeping it somewhat useful in matches versus these mons?
No Pokémon wants to lose their item. However, Amoonguss and Toxapex being regenerator Pokémon can regen off damage dealt by Meowscarda while Corv can just roost off damage (from non lacking t punch meows) pretty easily. These Pokémon are use to losing their item anyway and have been knock off absorbers in past gens. These Pokémon usually just result in meow not accomplishing a ton in decent amount of match ups. Meow is still a good Pokémon though.
 
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Imagine, if you will, a slowbro that isn't slack off, scald, teleport, future sight/thunderwave

Hard isn't it. BUT slowbro is back to show you why he's still the slow-king

:bw/slowbro:@ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam /Grass knot /Focus blast /Shadow ball
- Flamethrower /Fire blast
- Future Sight


394/256/295 bulk allows you to trade blows with anything that isn't stab supereffective and always come off better thanks to regenerator. Now due to the prevalence of dark types he's no S rank pokemon but certainly not C tier either. Scarf Gholdengo does less damage with shadow ball than you do to it with flamethrower. Valiant really has a hard time against this and paired with amoongus it's a particularly nasty regen core. Slowking paired with amoongus is a lot more passive.
Tera fairy can help you combat dark types but if youre full health then you can usually fire off one attack without tera. Tusk loses even with Max attack knock off (although weigh up this trade If you don't have a valiant answer in the back, you'll need the vest). I think realistically i think this set is a B-, its often a shock remembering how crazy slowbros offensive movepool is. With wake dying down I think the extra physical bulk and special attack investment is superior to slowking, ONLY chilly reception is keeping it on top and that itself is incompatible/ detrimental if you want to run weather or the opponent has a setup Baxcalibur.

:gholdengo:
252+ SpA Slowbro Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 194-230 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 216-254 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:great tusk:
252+ SpA Slowbro Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 444-524 (102.3 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowbro: 196-232 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:kingambit:
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowbro: 320-378 (81.2 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Slowbro Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 206-244 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 252-298 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

essentially kingambit isnt a switchin

:cinderace:
252 Atk Libero Cinderace U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowbro: 194-230 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO

:Garganacl:
252+ SpA Slowbro Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
:quagchamppogsire:

what slowbro really needs is hazard control so that regen can keep it healthy sans slack off. Strongly believe its worth a spot on teams in OU
 
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from A+ ------>S-

set I am evaluating: 252 HP/252 SPDEF Careful nature. Recover + stealth rock + salt cure + protect. Item: lefties. Tera: water. I think it is just the most consistent.

Garganacl is probably one of the most unique mons we ever got so far. Nothing can replicate what it does, it is not really a wall and for sure it's not really a wall breaker nor a sweeper. I Think that we can come up with a new class just for garg, probably CHIPPER or something like that.

Garg once used to be S- and it fell to lower rankings, and I think that the fall was absolutely justified. Mainly because its high usage triggered a very specific response: cover cloak spam. Some months ago I belive that 99.2% of Gholdengos and toxapexs ran covert cloak. To be honest i have seen all kind of mons running covert (even kingambit with cloak was a thing, that's how good garg was). Now covert cloak is no way near as wide spread as it used to be and this leads to my point: Garg will probably perpetually alternate between A+ tier and S tier according to covert cloak usage cycles.

Garg is essentially like the American economy: Mostly great but with some recessions here and there, in garg's case recessions are covert cloaks high cycles instead of subprime mortages.

Covert cloak completely shuts it down, the viability of garg is tied to the usage of this item, it's as simple as that. I think that the current low usage of the item (toxapex now runs AV, gholengo runs scarf, lefties and just occasionally covert) makes garg incredibly good and spammable.

There is also a new thing going for it specific to the current meta:

-Kingambit is now everywhere and garg has great synergy with it as the chips it will get against things like Tusk and Iron valiant will make gambit late game sweeping much easier. Furthermore garg has a great matchup against volcarona (especially bulkier variants) that is a natural check to the shinobi. Furthermore tera water garg deals well with king, it can't really switch but 1 v 1 garg just wins. The synergy with gambit is in my opinion a great factor that contributes to garg current viability.

-Garganacl does great against weather teams. With the addition of walking wake sun and even rain teams got more popular than before, garganacl with tera water has an amazing matchup against those.

Other than that garg is pretty much in the same position it used to be in early gen 9, S tier salting boi. I think that S- tier is probably fair as I think it is easier to kill now that thing like ice godzillas run around glaive rushing the soul out of everything that moves. Also Breloom is getting popular and it can obviously threaten non tera fairy garganacl variants. Other than these two bad matchups garg completely dominates everything else in OU with water tera.

I know that garg main weakness is that it needs to run tera, and that's a fair point, nontheless I don't think there is any pokemon that has better usage of tera. Tera garganacl is so good that I think the opportunity cost is literally 0 in at least 70% of the games. Most of the times you use tera to allow your pokemon to win one key turn (like tera figthing gholdengo to survive kingambit sucker and win the game) or to muscle through a check (tera dark gambit vs stall/kill weakened valiant with sucker). Don't get me wrong these are great usages, but the value you get from tera garganacl is just something else. The pressure you will keep on your opponent with that water pyramid in the back is just too high, tera water garganacl simply does great in the current meta, very few things have a decent matchup against this monster. Before you can KO it damage has already been made in most cases, leaving your kingambit or other late game sweepers win easily. Until covert cloak rises again in usage garganacl has free real estate in gen 9 OU meta.
 
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Imagine, if you will, a slowbro that isn't slack off, scald, teleport, future sight/thunderwave

Hard isn't it. BUT slowbro is back to show you why he's still the slow-king

:bw/slowbro:@ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam /Grass knot /Focus blast /Shadow ball
- Flamethrower /Fire blast
- Future Sight


394/256/295 bulk allows you to trade blows with anything that isn't stab supereffective and always come off better thanks to regenerator. Now due to the prevalence of dark types he's no S rank pokemon but certainly not C tier either. Scarf Gholdengo does less damage with shadow ball than you do to it with flamethrower. Valiant really has a hard time against this and paired with amoongus it's a particularly nasty regen core. Slowking paired with amoongus is a lot more passive.
Tera fairy can help you combat dark types but if youre full health then you can usually fire off one attack without tera. Tusk loses even with Max attack knock off (although weigh up this trade If you don't have a valiant answer in the back, you'll need the vest). I think realistically i think this set is a B-, its often a shock remembering how crazy slowbros offensive movepool is. With wake dying down I think the extra physical bulk and special attack investment is superior to slowking, ONLY chilly reception is keeping it on top and that itself is incompatible/ detrimental if you want to run weather or the opponent has a setup Baxcalibur.

:gholdengo:
252+ SpA Slowbro Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 194-230 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 216-254 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:great tusk:
252+ SpA Slowbro Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 444-524 (102.3 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowbro: 196-232 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:kingambit:
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowbro: 320-378 (81.2 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Slowbro Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 206-244 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 252-298 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

essentially kingambit isnt a switchin

:cinderace:
252 Atk Libero Cinderace U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowbro: 194-230 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO

:Garganacl:
252+ SpA Slowbro Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
:quagchamppogsire:

what slowbro really needs is hazard control so that regen can keep it healthy sans slack off. Strongly believe its worth a spot on teams in OU
wynaut av slowking?
 
wynaut av slowking?
Probably because Slowking already being famous for its Special Bulk means it won't lure anything with AV, compared to Slowbro picking up a few extra things it can tank with the item and its existing Physical Bulk. No one is really going to special attack into Slowking so the idea seems to be feigning Slowbro being threatened out to bait a switch-in and hitting them with a Lure move rather than exiting on a potential set-up turn like Gholdengo's NP for example, which leaves it weak for revenge kill and momentum sink rather than starting a Wall Break streak (Slowbro outdamaging Recover means Gholdengo can't really make healing progress and its safest move is to KO and simply stay at lower health).

Not sure how viable this is because the calcs don't feel like they're very practical occurrences but I see the idea at least.
 
Imagine, if you will, a slowbro that isn't slack off, scald, teleport, future sight/thunderwave

Hard isn't it. BUT slowbro is back to show you why he's still the slow-king

:bw/slowbro:@ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam /Grass knot /Focus blast /Shadow ball
- Flamethrower /Fire blast
- Future Sight


394/256/295 bulk allows you to trade blows with anything that isn't stab supereffective and always come off better thanks to regenerator. Now due to the prevalence of dark types he's no S rank pokemon but certainly not C tier either. Scarf Gholdengo does less damage with shadow ball than you do to it with flamethrower. Valiant really has a hard time against this and paired with amoongus it's a particularly nasty regen core. Slowking paired with amoongus is a lot more passive.
Tera fairy can help you combat dark types but if youre full health then you can usually fire off one attack without tera. Tusk loses even with Max attack knock off (although weigh up this trade If you don't have a valiant answer in the back, you'll need the vest). I think realistically i think this set is a B-, its often a shock remembering how crazy slowbros offensive movepool is. With wake dying down I think the extra physical bulk and special attack investment is superior to slowking, ONLY chilly reception is keeping it on top and that itself is incompatible/ detrimental if you want to run weather or the opponent has a setup Baxcalibur.

:gholdengo:
252+ SpA Slowbro Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 194-230 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 216-254 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:great tusk:
252+ SpA Slowbro Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 444-524 (102.3 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowbro: 196-232 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:kingambit:
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowbro: 320-378 (81.2 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Slowbro Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 206-244 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 252-298 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

essentially kingambit isnt a switchin

:cinderace:
252 Atk Libero Cinderace U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowbro: 194-230 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO

:Garganacl:
252+ SpA Slowbro Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
:quagchamppogsire:

what slowbro really needs is hazard control so that regen can keep it healthy sans slack off. Strongly believe its worth a spot on teams in OU
I want to echo pika pal's statement about these calcs not being very practical. No Tusk is going to stay in on a Slowbro, Cinderace will just switch out with U-Turn into something that can handle it, and Garganacl is nearly always tera'd and can make progress whatever it does. The only calcs I could see that are actually common are Kingambit Kowtow Cleave and Gholdengo Shadow Ball. This set really loses both the advantages of Slowbro and Slowking, because now Bro can't check big physical threats normal Slowbro would check or wall like SD Valiant (OHKOs with +2 Knock with this set while regular Bro can stay in, tank the Knock, and Thunder Wave or Psychic), Acrobatics Roaring Moon (Similar story to Valiant but it can't check it even if it Teras), Offensive Tusk (2HKOs this set with HLR), SD Bax, etc. Slowking checks all of the special threats this set does but better and it gets its item slot and Chilly Reception as well.

Of course, all this is just my thoughts, and I'm not the greatest player in the world. If I missed something crucial about this set that gives it a niche, I'd love it if you could explain!
 
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from A+ ------>S-

set I am evaluating: 252 HP/252 SPDEF Careful nature. Recover + stealth rock + salt cure + protect. Item: lefties. Tera: water. I think it is just the most consistent.

Garganacl is probably one of the most unique mons we ever got so far. Nothing can replicate what it does, it is not really a wall and for sure it's not really a wall breaker nor a sweeper. I Think that we can come up with a new class just for garg, probably CHIPPER or something like that.

Garg once used to be S- and it fell to lower rankings, and I think that the fall was absolutely justified. Mainly because its high usage triggered a very specific response: cover cloak spam. Some months ago I belive that 99.2% of Gholdengos and toxapexs ran covert cloak. To be honest i have seen all kind of mons running covert (even kingambit with cloak was a thing, that's how good garg was). Now covert cloak is no way near as wide spread as it used to be and this leads to my point: Garg will probably perpetually alternate between A+ tier and S tier according to covert cloak usage cycles.

Garg is essentially like the American economy: Mostly great but with some recessions here and there, in garg's case recessions are covert cloaks high cycles instead of subprime mortages.

Covert cloak completely shuts it down, the viability of garg is tied to the usage of this item, it's as simple as that. I think that the current low usage of the item (toxapex now runs AV, gholengo runs scarf, lefties and just occasionally covert) makes garg incredibly good and spammable.

There is also a new thing going for it specific to the current meta:

-Kingambit is now everywhere and garg has great synergy with it as the chips it will get against things like Tusk and Iron valiant will make gambit late game sweeping much easier. Furthermore garg has a great matchup against volcarona (especially bulkier variants) that is a natural check to the shinobi. Furthermore tera water garg deals well with king, it can't really switch but 1 v 1 garg just wins. The synergy with gambit is in my opinion a great factor that contributes to garg current viability.

-Garganacl does great against weather teams. With the addition of walking wake sun and even rain teams got more popular than before, garganacl with tera water has an amazing matchup against those.

Other than that garg is pretty much in the same position it used to be in early gen 9, S tier salting boi. I think that S- tier is probably fair as I think it is easier to kill now that thing like ice godzillas run around glaive rushing the soul out of everything that moves. Also Breloom is getting popular and it can obviously threaten non tera fairy garganacl variants. Other than these two bad matchups garg completely dominates everything else in OU with water tera.

I know that garg main weakness is that it needs to run tera, and that's a fair point, nontheless I don't think there is any pokemon that has better usage of tera. Tera garganacl is so good that I think the opportunity cost is literally 0 in at least 70% of the games. Most of the times you use tera to allow your pokemon to win one key turn (like tera figthing gholdengo to survive kingambit sucker and win the game) or to muscle through a check (tera dark gambit vs stall/kill weakened valiant with sucker). Don't get me wrong these are great usages, but the value you get from tera garganacl is just something else. The pressure you will keep on your opponent with that water pyramid in the back is just too high, tera water garganacl simply does great in the current meta, very few things have a decent matchup against this monster. Before you can KO it damage has already been made in most cases, leaving your kingambit or other late game sweepers win easily. Until covert cloak rises again in usage garganacl has free real estate in gen 9 OU meta.
Absolutely agree with this, there's a few things here that didn't get mentioned that I think deserve specific mentions. In a post shed tail world Garg is an absolute monster, Something very specific about garg is that many players run sets like sub dirge and sub pult just to have a better MU vs garg, what this essentially means is that many good pokemon get a bit kneecapped just to deal with garg allowing it's teammates who might struggle with X mon now having a better MU as they obviously cannot run the subsets and regular sets at the same time.

Alongside this Garg has a surprising amount of variety, It can be a solid rocker, a potential stallbreaker with block+curse, a defensive check to nearly anything in the tier. In ladder specifically the removal of shedtail and replacement ladderwise being a surgence in weather teams is also amazing for garg. It is one of the few mons who will be useful in literally any matchup. I think the covert cloak usage rate is a fine argument, but even then I would still say that garg belongs more in S- than A+. Running specific counterplay to garg once again often cripples mons as they are running said set almost entirely to have a better MU vs garg which they might not achieve anyways depending on the set, this will once again free up a better MU for garg's teammates, and if they aren't running said specific garg counterplay then garg just garganacls all over them, it just makes finding wincons a lot easier when suddenly the enemy dirge can't actually beat and burn your Dnite in the 1v1 for example,.

Garg shouldn't rise to S. Tusk is still infinitely more splashable in terms of what it both provides utility wise, offensively and defensively. And Kingambit is still bullshit that makes endgames uninteractive is still a top tier wincon and offensive presence on every single archetype (even stall for some reason). Unlike these mons Garg will almost be required to use its terra type in games to be really useful, that being said OP is right, the opportunity cost is so low for Terraing garg into Fairy/Water/Ghost or whatever that it makes it completely worth it, on most Balance or slower paced teams where garg might find a home it is nearly always worth it to just terra garg whenever. It is also relatively good into the Dondozo/AVpex/Scream tail core and with said core, being completely unremovable and threatening all of them in the 1v1, with the only annoyance being encored. Unlike Tusk and Kingambit it isn't quite good enough to be able to have an argument for being used on every team, it is hard to run with fellow mons who need terra (specific tera blast strats like flying dnite, fairy kingambit) and it usually won't have a place on most offensive teams.

I really do not see much of a reason why Garg shouldn't rise to S-, it is clearly above the rest of the non kingambit/tusk mons at least imo. The drawbacks to using Garg are very minor limitations, the lack of Shedtail and Garg's wonderful MUs vs the other archetypes in the game are just too useful.

Some thoughts regarding other mons.

Zoroark-H
A- to B+

ZoroH now that we've had some time to properly use it simply is not as good as other mons in A-. The Reliability of the value that you'll get from zoroH is the most variable in the entire tier, but the mon just isn't enough in this meta. ZoroH realistically only looks to be used on offensive teams or HO teams, in those scenarios it rivals other wallbreakers and special mons but it simply just doesn't hold a candle to them. Realistically ZoroH has a one turn 50/50 and outside of that it is a frail mon with a fine speedtier that isn't strong enough unless you are running specs. (Will struggle to make any notable dent vs balance teams without it). This makes the reliability of ZoroH completely minimal. In Comparison on these same offensive teams you can use mons such as booster energy iron moth or valiant, or other specs wallbreakers like Pult or Valiant who will just be more consistently useful.

ZoroH is prone to being easily overwhelmed vs many standard offensive structures and can also severely struggle to be useful vs more bulky teams which can just lead to it being a flat out liability and unreliable. It is threatened by Kingambit, Bax, Pult, Moon, Valiant, Cinderace, Meowscarada, Hydreigon, Azumaril and dnite just off the top of my head who either outspeed and OHKO it or live a hit and then OHKO it in return. Vs Sun, rain and psyspam teams it will also likely do almost nothing. On top of this VS more balanced teams it really struggles to make use of the one turn surprise card that it gets and will often end up walled by an AV pex, clodsire or ting lu, with the only real usage in these scenarios being on choiced trick.

ZoroH just isn't an A- mon, when evaluating what it brings as both a wallbreaker or a cleaner it is unreliable and does not have solid MUs into the tier, it also has a much harder time with the new pex/dondozo/scream tail core that I am seeing everywhere, pex stonewalls it and the other two can scout with protect very easily. When making the comparison to iron moth which is in the same tier as it right now, Iron moth has a much more important role on these offensive teams, not only does it absorb Tspikes but with Booster energy and fiery dance it acts as a much more effective and consistent cleaner on these teams, unlike ZoroH it isn't threatened as much vs top tier mons due to the booster energy speedtier, it can make much more effective use of Terra due to not being reliant on its typing, and with the new specs iron moth set that is seeing some usage it can even act as a straight up more consistent wallbreaker than Zoroh.

I know that they are quite a fair way away in the ranking, but I find ZoroH a lot more comparable to a mon like Iron Jugulis, both in regards to what it consistently achieves, its damage output and overall viability on Offensive teams compared to the mons it competes for slots against is similar. I strongly believe that a drop down to B+ is warranted. ZoroH is a relatively fringe option that isn't at the calibre of other A- mons.

Flamigo to Unranked.

When was the last time you saw a Flamigo in ou?
doodoo fart mon. It was theorised as useful due to scrappy CC and a decent attack stat but the mon is honestly just flat, there is not a single OU team or archetype which Flamigo is worth using over other alternatives for a band/scarf mon and I am not too sure why this mon remains ranked, Cloyster has a niche on psyspam, Abomasnow Aura Veil teams while not good are at least playable, same for webs. Maybe I am really dumb and I'm missing something, if so please let me know but I do not see a reason why Flamigo should be ranked on the OU VR.

I think the discussion should also be had for Zard to either C- or Unranked, who in their right mind would ever use Zard as a specs wallbreaker on sun over mons like walking wake? The 4x weakness to rocks, shit speed tier and unsustainability alongside competing with other specs breakers on sun. All this mon has are theoretical calcs when in practice it is not achieving that. IMO the mon is not viable and I think we are around the part of the meta when the A and B tiers are honestly pretty solid so it is worthwhile just clearing up the shitmons off the VR.
 
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