Metagame SV RU Metagame Discussion (Enamorus-Therian banned, see post #235)

Lime

o.o
is a Tiering Contributor
pretty unfortunate shifts, didn't get any cool stuff and lost a bunch of important stuff, but ig that was expected.

Amoonguss seems cool tho probably not very good due to not having spore, probably doing some stun spore stuff and checking zarude/enam etc with clear smog is pretty cool. Can slot something like stomping tantrum aswell for reva.

DeoD looks nice, could use np sets but there is no need to run it because we have mew ( speaking of new who let mew drop to nu bro wtf, that thing is busted ), tport is very nice, spikes with knock and reliable recovery would be cool.

Cincinno looks like it might end up being too much, it beats the best counterplay for its counterpart maushold, hippowdon due to bullet seed and with loaded dice and technician, the power becomes too much.
Tail Slap is now a 150/175 bp move and Triple Axel is a 180 bp move. Very big upgrade to maushold, might need to keep an eye on this one
 

FlamingoPokeman

I SHOULD BE BANNED
is a Tiering Contributor
The tier didn't change drastically, though losing the two best bulky Water types hurts a bit... although it could be argued :slowking: was unhealthy given how easy it was to get in and Chilly Reception into something else.

I still think several mons should be evaluated for bans soon;

:cobalion: - This mon became quite oppresive in the second half of the month with Body Press / Iron Defense / Taunt sets being really tough to manage.
:enamorus-therian: - I believe this was really slept on last month because of how prevalent Slowking was (and, to a lesser extent, Tinkaton), though not much in the tier now switches into Moonblast comfortably.
:hoopa-unbound: - I've voiced my opinion on this several times and understand the ideology behind not banning it, I guess... but this thing just shreds teams very easily and has so many viable sets that it's really constraining in the builder.
:iron leaves: - Another Booster Energy mon that was freed in February just to enable HO to thrive. Would love to see this gone as only a handful of Choice Scarfers are viable revenge killers.
:thundurus-therian: - A tremendous Special Attacker that really loves seeing Blissey go back to OU this month. Nasty Plot / Knock Off sets makes Assault Vest Cyclizar lose the 1v1 and Volt Switch sets really allow for even bulkier teams to get worn down quick.
:zarude: - Monkey broken. I think we've all seen the handful of games in Seasonal that came down to Bulk Up Zarude vs Bulk Up Zarude.
:zapdos-galar: - I think this is the hardest to rationalize in terms of my list but Scarf sets still feel really overwhelming, especially when paired with Thundy-T as a VoltTurn core. Brave Bird / Close Combat doesn't have a lot of switch-ins and Knock is such a free click.
 
I'm not sure where the line on quick bans falls, but maybe some of the most notorious threats will actually be harder to get in without Slowking offering so many chances. Maybe Thundy-T and Leaves aren't quite as good now?
Still very much on side in favor of :iron leaves: , :zarude: , and :thundurus-therian: being gone. It's a lot of teambuilder (and in game) pressure.

Others, I'm not sure how they will look after the dust settles with Deo-D in and Tink/King/Mamo gone (especially if any of the above listed are gone too). Honestly given the current power levels, they don't seem far off that mark...

(quick edit) I think we might just have to accept that we'll still be in a meta where some games are basically lost on preview
 
:TINKATON: genuinely did so much I'm so sad to see her go, at least she's moving up in the world!
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In the top 10 she dealt with :cyclizar:, :mimikyu:, :kleavor:, :Enamorus-Therian: and :maushold: (and to an extent wasn't bad against :Gengar:). Sure she wasn't used as much as some other pokemon and wasn't broken but I feel like her going away just adds to how uncounterable and dominant some of these pokemon feel (specifically maushold and enamorus-t)...
 
We lost the bulky water types that basically every team was relying on, so I thought I'd talk about how the old waters can be used in this new tier and some of the new ones we got in the great flood.
:milotic: :vaporeon:: These two feel like they have fallen off for good. Society has moved past the need for Vaporeon, let NU have it. Milotic is still slightly usable though. Mostly outclassed by empoleon as the water type with flip turn, but milotic still has a niche that no other water does thanks to haze/dragon tail. The problem is that right now, the setup mons that you would want to annoy just beat milotic outright. Zarude in particular is the big threat that you would want to phaze, and it just ruins milotic without setting up at all. However, if you have a team that needs protection vs reuniclus or enamorus then haze milotic is very good.
:slowbro:: The king is dead, slowbro's allowed to be good again. In January, we saw CM bro sort of fall off a cliff because of Zarude, and I think that if you use slowbro right now then you absolutely need to be running ice beam in order to threaten Zarude. You can't rely on scald burns or twave to scare the monkey, you need actual damage to keep it from switching in. However the good news is that with tera, slowbro can be a reliable answer to most zarudes if you use a set of scald, ice beam, psychic move. Poison is the most common tera type on the monkey, which slowbro can punish pretty easily.
:empoleon:: I've felt like Empoleon has been pretty underrated for basically its whole life in ru, except for last month. It's the mon I see as a direct replacement for slowking with its special bulk and pivot move, though it's nowhere near as good at that role. Right now I feel like you could do some major damage with an offensive 3 attacks emp set. nothing really wants to take a hit from empoleon with both ice beam and grass knot. You're running hippo on every team anyways so it's not like you need to run rocks on emp.
:swampert: :gastrodon:: these two arrived last month, but they went really overlooked thanks to everything else going on and there just being better waters. Gastrodon feels like it's a really strong mon in the wrong meta. It takes hits from basically every special attacker like they're nothing and sets up hazards, but it's just really hard to fit in a meta that is so hyper-offensive and physical. Swampert, however, is pretty good IMO. It always takes hits better than you think it would and it just has a bunch of consistent, progress-making moves. The only downside is that its typing is kind of awkward. You don't beat the best electric type in the tier because it has grass knot and you don't beat the best fire type in the tier because it burns you with wisp. You end up having to take a lot of neutral hits with swampert, and that can be hard to do over the long term. But in shorter games, swampert can just put in work no matter what and it will always live a hit or two. I'm a fan of physdef swampert over spdef or anything in between. You beat terrakion, you beat infernape, you beat rhyperior, you get free entry on hippo and you really beat revavroom. The only downside is that you need a backup form of phsyical bulk to deal with zarude and iron leaves, but cobalion is just good on every team anyways.
:suicune:: The traditional suicune sets feel really bad. Crocune is just passive as hell and does nothing until it gets the chance to win the game, and while sub+protect suicune is better, it falls victim to many of the same issues. However, I feel like there is still room to explore sets that aren't focused on being an infinitely surviveable win condition. Resttalk suicune with scald and roar has a better statistical profile than basically any other bulky water while still having longevity and offensive suicune with cm, scald, ice beam and roar, substitute or tera blast feels like it might be able to do something. Someone better than me should try it and report back.
:volcanion:: Tis thing gets better with the departure of slowking, but it still has a real cyclizar problem. You'll just end up flopping vs too many teams for me to really want to use volcanion.
 
While we are still in a Jungle Monkey :Zarude: meta, I think people should be heavily on the Enamorus-t train ( :Enamorus-Therian: said we could ride on her back, she’s a turtle). This thing is extremely broken, and hey look at that, there’s a certain steel type that you don’t even have to consider anymore when clicking moonblast. If everyone is trying to find the next broken thing in a new meta, and we have to think about how to deal with those broken guys, it doesn’t hurt to have a little bit of cheese yourself.

:Enamorus-Therian:
Love Handle (Enamorus-Therian) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Overcoat
Tera Type: Poison/ Ground / Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 12 Def / 176 SpA / 72 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Draining Kiss
- Earth Power
- Calm Mind

Because Enamorous-T :Enamorus-Therian: is so good, I think players can also try out a few steel types we’ve had for a while.

Especially because, you’re not obligated to run rocks on these mons because of the goat ( :Hippowdon:). Why do you think the other goat :Cobalion: Exploded in popularity? There's a lot of reasons, but one of the reasons is people stopped trying to run rocks on every set.

Regiman :Registeel: was great in January when it was obligated to run rocks (NEVER TOUCH HIPPO AGAIN UU, I’M SERIOUS) but now it can fill that move slot with something truly evil: t-wave

:Registeel:
Regithem (Registeel) @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 92 Def / 164 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Heavy Slam
- Thunder Wave

Since Registeel is so fucking bulky, they can get away with running some extra speed, I don’t think anyone would dispute that. But Registeel can use t-wave to stop annoying sweepers, or just paralyze the slower mon in front of it to beat it 1v1. Again, something I consider broken that is sort of a necessary evil right now. Not Regi itself, but t-wave in general.

Body press IDef has been shown to be a great progress maker vs offensive teams while walling the fuck out of them. With some speed investment, Regithem :Registeel: can outspeed whatever you want unboosted. I wouldn’t go quite to 190 for Conkeldurr, but 177 outspeeds unboosted Moushold after twave. 181 for paralyzed Cinccino may become ideal. Regi can’t quite break teams like the :Cobalion: goat with its stab body press, but the extra resistances and monster spdef can give some more flexibility when making your team. Even Slowbro, one of your best checks, has to deal with yellow magic, and we are down one very fast and immune to t-wave washing machine. Note that Registeel is actually lighter than Cobalion for whatever reason 500ish vs 400ish lbs, so its heavy slam may not quite have the same damage even taking into account its worse attack compared to Coba. It still hits the extremely light pokemon with 120 bp Heavy slams, so for most targets Regi's base power is the same.

Empoleon :Empoleon: is an option I’ve tried to limited success, but I’m thinking that’s just down to user error and never using it before.

I’ve been using this set

:Empoleon:
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
Tera Type: Ghost / Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 208 SpA / 52 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Grass Knot / Ice Beam
- Flip Turn
- Roost

Hitting a jump point in special attack with modest and 111 is no joke. Two move special coverage isn’t ideal, but we’re hoping to just flip turn out and get back momentum against something that walls us. Team dependent but I will never recommend hydro pump on this type of Pokémon. Outspeed what you want, but I’m using this to deal with Enamorus-T (I’m getting the competitive boost on the Moonblast btw), faster special attackers, and to not be passive vs Hippo. I’ve decided Volcanion (gk is 120 bp by the way) is just a bit too fast to creep unfortunately. Can check blastoise though your coverage vs it is either bad if they Tera, or bad if they stay regular. Not ideal but it’s an option.

:Hippowdon:
Chomp (Hippowdon) @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Ghost / Dragon / Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Att / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Slack Off
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind/Stone Edge
I’d also like to mention a sometimes overlooked part of Hippowdon’s :Hippowdon: usefulness. It’s easily the best all purpose ground type, a great blanket check even if it has flaws. If you’ve played a meta game with permanent sand, you’ll know that it can very much shift how useful some Pokémon are. We don’t have permenant sand, but Hippo on potentially one or BOTH teams in a battle on a regular basis is the closest equivalent.
Let’s talk about the benefits, or at least the way it shapes the tier. That 6% chip wears down defensive and offensive Pokemon alike. It’s a great tool for bulky offense to add additional chip or negate leftovers recovery. Even IF your Cyclizar is getting chipped making it less effective, so is the opponent’s bike.

At worst, you want sand to be a net neutral for your team in the battle. You also know if you’re bringing Hippo :Hippowdon: (and arguably even if you aren’t) you should have a few Pokémon that won’t take sand damage, (and hey, you already start with one, as well as a few more I’ve mentioned earlier) I think you can even argue that Cobalion being the #1 pokemon in the tier is in part due to it healing or at least not being damaged in sand while many of its checks are. 6.25% is 6.25% whether you’re in ADV or SV.

One reason I think terrain teams (Grassy, Psychic in February, and E-terrain) have been successful or at the very least are annoying to play around, is that bulky offense doesn’t have a way to stop it from going up. Hippo at least provides you an out vs rain and other weather in a way nothing else can (even Slowking could be targeted by rain teams and prevented from getting the chilly up with taunt or killing it.)

However, even against terrain teams you can take advantage of sand. Hippo can break a Psyterrain Cloyster’s sash and stop Armorouge’s endure weak armor shenanigans from sweeping you, or it can negate grassy terrain healing for a few turns.

Sand can also be good against stall teams you might find on the ladder. Hippo gets up rocks after bike knocks a few boots, then the stall team is forced to take guaranteed chip that keeps stallmons as far away from 100% as you can get them. Any good stall team won’t crumple to sand chip, but you can still use it to your advantage.
 
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idk how do start or structure this post so I'll write whatever comes to mind first

It seems like most of the playerbase isn't exactly a fan of how the tier plays. RU is an extremely agressive tier filled with HOs at every level of play and feels like a win/lose at preview fiesta. There is an immense array of threats you can pick from that have very limited defensive counterplay and it forces Balance to pick from an extremely limited pool of mons ( hi :hippowdon::moltres::cyclizar::cobalion: ) that you can't really stray away from lest you open yourself up to gg go next at team preview against half of the tier, not to mention elite balance breakers such as Thundurus-T, Hoopa-U, Crawdaunt, Zarude, Okidogi and Zoro-H are all present in the same tier and are often found in Balance build themselves.
A great example of this is :blastoise: who require extremely specific answers that Balance just can't afford going for since Timid outspeeds even Scarf Azelf and picking Empoleon is just weakening your team against the 30 other 1-turn game-ending threats running around.

In other words, RU is (I think) a lightspeed-paced rock-paper-scissors meta where Balance teams are constantly under pressure and forced to pick from a microscopic pool of select mons to minimize the amount of lose-at-team-preview scenarios.

This is not to say that outplaying is impossible, however. Balanced teams can outplay and win against HO, Hoopa-U, Thun-T etc. and HippoMoltCoba is very much a viable archetype with ways to re-gain momentum thanks to U-turn Molt and Cyc, and having a fast-paced, more offense-oriented tier is not inherently a negative. All in all, the tier is still playable.

However, I do believe that the current meta leaves very little room for creativity when it comes to non-HO builds and it could benefit from braking a little bit for once.

So, where does that bring us? After Zarude's inevitable ban, who gets kicked out first? If I believe talks from the forum and the Discord, one of the most likely option is Iron Leaves, but I believe this may not be as easy as 1-2-3. While it is true that Iron Leaves is a top threat right now, arguing that it is broken sounds difficult the more I think about it. Iron Leaves is susceptible to all entry hazards, taking damage from Hippo's sandstorm, is rather weak without a Swords Dance boost and often struggles to find an opportunity to set up due to common Balance cores having options such as whirwind on Hippo removing the Booster Energy buff, ID Ghost Coba and Moltres to prevent it from setting up easily. meanwhile, HO hits just too hard for Iron Leaves to have an opportunity to boost up, usually packs 1-2 priorities and Red Card Mimikyu is always an out that wastes Iron Leaves's Booster.
I am not pretending that Iron Leaves is a bad mon, it's still incredibly fast after Booster and can use its would-be answers like Moltres with Tera Fire as setup fodder. However, I do believe that it is far from being a braindead mon and it requires good plays from the Iron Leaves user to make sure that it can do its job. tl;dr, a Ban verdict is not as obvious as one may think.
Other contenders like Hoopa-U and Thun-T greatly suffer from HO's prominence that preys on these two.

So, is this it? No clear contender for a suspect test? Nothing that would get a guaranteed Ban verdict? Are we stuck in this position? Well, again, the tier being fast-paced is not inherently a negative and you still have viable Balance builds. But if we still want to slow the tier down I have an idea:
just rip the bandaid off and kokoloko :blastoise::enamorus-therian::hoopa-unbound::thundurus-therian::iron_leaves::okidogi::revavroom: out of the tier, and maybe :kleavor::necrozma: just to be extra sure.
Now, the list is not final and we would have to think about it a little longer and could see more stuff added to it (maybe the tier would become a tad too fat, idk), but I believe it is our best shot at making RU a more enjoyable tier,and most importantly a tier with much more creativity when it comes to non-HO builds.

Let me know what you think of it, maybe I just don't know what im talking about lol but these are my thoughts.
 
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Lime

o.o
is a Tiering Contributor
After reading fluff's post, i decided to check the usage stats of RU Seasonal to see how much of a ho fest the tier is, and these were the results.
I have attached the full list below, I'll look at the mons with some decent usage.

IMG_20240308_172231.jpg

IMG_20240308_172246.jpg
One thing that is striking out is the most used playstyle is balance, since the mons with most usage like hippo/cobalion/slowking/cycle/zarude (can be in ho aswell ) are usually used on balance / bo structures but their winrate is lacking especially slowking and moltres with 33% and 37% winrate respectively.
On the other hand, ho doesn't have the highest usage, but do they have an amazing winrate oh boy. Ho staples like revavroom, mimikyu standing out with 81% and 75% winrate, Kleavor which is primarily used as an ho lead with 60% winrate, Blastoise which sees usage on ho teams sometimes has a winrate of 100%!.
My conclusion from this is, while the tier isn't exactly a ho fest since balance/bo seems to be the most popular, the high winrate of ho teams does tell that it is a very dominanting style.
However, while I do think we need bans in the tier,I do not think kokoloko method is the way we should choose, ou had made a full discussion thread about it and it was considered a terrible method by most.

Thanks for reading, I encourage more people to post their thoughts. I love this tier and i think sv ru has the potential to be a great meta if we go in the right direction.
 

Attachments

Roaring Moon is one of the best setup sweepers in the tier. Since it returned from DLC2 after a ban, it has put the tier in a ringer. Roaring Moon has even been under discussion for a ban. I wanted this thing gone so bad, but the more time has gone on, the better my teambuilding and my plays vs Moon have gotten. For those wondering how to deal with this absurd beast, this guide will give you a decent idea on how to combat Roaring Moon.

View attachment 612838How To Fight The MoonView attachment 612837


Section I: Sets
View attachment 612841

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Taunt

Roaring Moon @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dark/Dragon/Ground
EVs: 32 HP / 220 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Outrage
- Iron Head/Earthquake
- U-turn

As you can see, Moon only runs three sets. DD Three Attacks, Taunt DD, and CB. We could eliminate CB because you’ll only find it on Sun and CB is hardly ever brought up when discussing a RM suspect. What you might notice about the DD sets is that it almost always runs Tera Flying. There are very rare instances of it running Tera Steel or Fairy, but Moon often wants Tera Flying Acro to guarantee an OHKO on Physically Defensive Tusk without Spikes. So focus on Tera Flying.

Section II: Checks
View attachment 612842
“I check everything, tee hee.”

The reason it is important to talk about the two sets is that the counterplay may vary between them.

DD Three Attacks

-Toxic Gliscor
-Ting-Lu (Short-Term)
-Dondozo
-Weavile (Can Switch Into an Unboosted Hit once. Rkills with Shard)
-Dragonite
-Zamazenta (Pre-Tera)
-Mandibuzz
-Balloon Gambit (Short-Term)
-Skarm (Don’t run Speed evs for Gambit. They sometimes run Jolly to outspeed anyways. Your Gambit checking resources are better spent elsewhere)
-Boots Kyurem (64 Def EVs lets you survive a +1 Knock from Moon. Checks Pre-Tera)
-Barb Clef
-Balloon Tran (Can eat a Knock with investment and Wisps it)

DD Taunt

-Dondozo
-Kingambit
-Weavile
-Dragonite
-Zamazenta (Pre-Tera)
-Mandibuzz
-Physically Bulky Garganacl
-Tyranitar
-Raging Bolt
-Tinkaton
-Barb Clef
-Boots Kyu (Pre-Tera)

Section III: Team Composition
View attachment 612840

There are certain team compositions that help deal with Moon. Checks are not just in a vacuum, checks are paired with other mons. They can aid in dealing with a certain threat. This is important for dealing with both sets. For example, Gliscor + Gambit is a great way to deal with Roaring Moon. If you see Moon coming in, go Gliscor, and click Toxic or U-Turn. If Moon clicks Taunt, you will know right away that it is safe for Gambit to come in. Toxic also puts Moon on a timer and eases Sucker mindgames once Gambit comes back in.

RH Lando has been one of my favorite ways of handling Moon. Chipping down Moon with Helmet, Status, etc is a great way to deal with it, because Roost is almost never used. Lando can weaken it, and then U-Turn out into a check. RM without that +1 boost is much easier to deal with.

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 268-316 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 312-368 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 104 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta: 236-278 (67.2 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Moon will either click Knock or it will try to DD again. If it DD’s again, you go back into Lando to click U-Turn again. If they click DD again, they’re already taking chip twice, putting it in range of a possible kill.

This means you could pair Lando with any one of the aforementioned checks to cover the Moon MU. My favorite pairing is Lando + Dnite. After rocks and U-Turn, Moon is in range of Ice Spinner or 2 E-Speeds. Yes Weavile Ice Shard deals around 46-55%, but you can put it in that range with certain teammates like Barb Clef, Gliscor, Skarm, etc.

Section IV: Reducing Setup Opportunities
View attachment 612843

So, what can Moon safely setup on? Surprisingly little actually. You might think Samurott since it duals resists its STABs, but even resisted, Razor Shell and Ceaseless do a good chunk to its HP. 30% with Jolly Razor. 33% with Adamant. There is also the chance Hamurott is carrying Sacred Sword. It could play Tera mindgames with it, but that is risky since it deals 50% to Tera Flying.

Ogerpon, Gholdengo, and Glowking are also possible candidates. They’re all important Pokemon that Moon can scare off. Gking and Ghold can cripple it with status, but losing them can hurt if you need them to check important threats. Losing Ogerpon though isn’t the end of the world. Ogerpon is mainly a wallbreaker and Moon is a setup sweeper exclusive to HO. Assuming the team doesn’t have a Primarina or other mons that Oger is needed to check, you could sack it to deal chip or force a Tera with Play Rough. When building your team, consider if the team has free entry for Moon. If it does, consider how you’ll deal with it if it sets up.

Is Moon Broken?

Imo, no. Not anymore.
Moon’s weaknesses like its fragility, and its linear gameplan have been shining more in this metagame. Checks like Dtail Dnite, Lando, etc have been seeing higher usage. It is easier to chip Moon down. The direction the teams has been headed towards has seeing gearing towards using blanket checks like Dnitre with an emphasis on offense. It isn’t just full HO, BO builds have been seeing a resurgence. Some of the mons I’ve considered broken in the past like Deo-S, and Kyurem have been adapted towards. They aren’t broken, yet considerably strong. (Deo-S dropped to UU, but still.) I am interested in seeing how the metagame will develop this month and the following months. This may not have been my most polished write-up, but I’ve been interested in making “How to Deal With X” guides since the one for Spikes. I may make more of these in the future. Which Pokemon do you want me to cover how to beat next?

In the meantime, here’s Roaring Muppet
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View attachment 612844
This is the SV RU Metagame Discussion thread :tymp:
 
Dont worry, it'll be power crept next gen and end up in RU. Then we can see if it beats out Espathra or Bloodmoon as the best Gen 10 RU set up sweeper
Roaring moon will be RU next gen but comfey will be RUBL next gen.. As its gen 10 and ptob will have two most loved gimmicks in tera and megas...
 
Zarude has been banned from SV RU.

Following this ban, I'm sure the one mon people will have to look at is:

:hoopa-unbound:

Zarude was very dominant in the meta, and it was one of the few mons that can reliably switch in on Hoopa's STABs without issues, and also be able to tank the coverage it ran. I know a lot of people think Hoopa was broken before even the Zarude ban, so I'd like to see some discussion on the mon.

It'd be also interesting to see if other steel types pick up, or if Cobalion will still have the impact it had in these last few weeks.

Either way, feel free to post about your thoughts on the impact Zarude's departure will have on the tier!
 
Zarude has been banned from SV RU.

Following this ban, I'm sure the one mon people will have to look at is:

:hoopa-unbound:

Zarude was very dominant in the meta, and it was one of the few mons that can reliably switch in on Hoopa's STABs without issues, and also be able to tank the coverage it ran. I know a lot of people think Hoopa was broken before even the Zarude ban, so I'd like to see some discussion on the mon.

It'd be also interesting to see if other steel types pick up, or if Cobalion will still have the impact it had in these last few weeks.

Either way, feel free to post about your thoughts on the impact Zarude's departure will have on the tier!
Hoopa and Iron Leaves are about to run wild. Also if they both end up getting banned I think Okidogi could be next, because there will be less physical psychics to break through it and it could just bulk up on a lot of the tier without any worry
 

FlamingoPokeman

I SHOULD BE BANNED
is a Tiering Contributor
:sv/hoopa-unbound:
Arguably as broken or more than :zarude: was prior to the ban (good job RU, we didn't fumble this one too bad), Hoopa-U has practically no switch-in's to its incredibly diverse toolbelt. While this thing has undeniably broken stats for the tier offensively (160/170 Attack/Special Attack), the Speed tier of 80 always meant it struggled to matchup into faster offensive structures which were common in the Zarude meta's of late.
Choice Scarf Hoopa-U could overcome the lack of a great speed tier by being just fast enough to comfortably 2HKO whatever tried to switch into it, while Choice Band / Specs sets could very comfortably 2HKO the fatter things like :Hippowdon:, :milotic: and :empoleon: that wanted to switch in and scout the set early.
A staple on Trick Room, Hoopa-U could also capitalize on it's less-than-stellar Speed tier by running a minimum Speed set on OTR to steal multiple kills with Life Orb. Assault Vest Hoopa-U could also take advantage of it's great 130 Special Defense stat and abuse Tera Fairy to comfortably soak hits and deal massive damage to whatever comes into it.

Hoopa-Unbound remains one of the imminent threats in a Zarude-less meta, along with :enamorus-therian:, :iron-leaves: and :thundurus-therian:, all ban-worthy mons in my not-so-expert opinion. I'd like to see RU continue to progress the very stale meta that we're in where approaching the builder requires far too much brainpower trying to account for mons that can legitimately abuse multiple sets and Tera's to clean teams.

Hoopa-U leaving RU would accomplish so much for the tier especially with RUPL and RUFPL (or RUGL?) around the corner. Please, RU Council, do the right thing and be more proactive regarding tiering.
 
Zarude has been banned from SV RU.

Following this ban, I'm sure the one mon people will have to look at is:

:hoopa-unbound:

Zarude was very dominant in the meta, and it was one of the few mons that can reliably switch in on Hoopa's STABs without issues, and also be able to tank the coverage it ran. I know a lot of people think Hoopa was broken before even the Zarude ban, so I'd like to see some discussion on the mon.

It'd be also interesting to see if other steel types pick up, or if Cobalion will still have the impact it had in these last few weeks.

Either way, feel free to post about your thoughts on the impact Zarude's departure will have on the tier!
I think Hoopa shows how spammable of a type Psychic is, especially now that Zarude is gone. Gardevoir has been rising in popularity as of late and Azelf is still running around, largely due to the extinction of Steel and Dark mons. The only darks in RU are Bisharp, who loses to all of Hippowdon, Cobalion AND Moltres which are all incredibly popular Balance picks, Crawdaunt who doesn't wanna take the risk of hard switching into anything and... well, Hoopa-U. As for Steel types, we have Bisharp who I already covered and Cobalion and Revavroom don't actually resist Psychic. It leaves us with Empoleon, who has seen a rise in popularity as of late precisely due to the need of an actual Steel, and the incredible Forretress who actually resists Psychic, until it doesn't because it cannot answer any of the big Psychics in the tier thanks to Flamethrower Azelf, Mystical Fire Gardevoir and DPulse Hoopa-U. And honestly, I don't see Hoopa-U as any more menacing than Gardevoir or Azelf. They all have their own pros and cons which I will list now:

  • :hoopa-unbound: has the highest Special Attack of the bunch and Dark as a secondary typing, meaning that it can click a STAB on Empoleon's face. Access to Knock Off is also quite incredible although I do prefer clicking Specs Dark Pulse. Also is the better pick as a TR mon. Dark-typing, however, gives it a double weakness to U-turn from Molt and Cyc, which ain't that great when you're supposed to break Balance. 80 base speed makes you borderline useless against HO if not running scarf.
  • :gardevoir: has Trace which single handedly destroys weather teams and has a secondary Fairy typing that removes headaches when facing Darks. Again, her speed is quite low at 80 which makes her a liability against HO if not running scarf. She does have the benefit of not being weak to both Knock Off and U-turn, so she can actually do whatever she wants in front of Cyc in a 1v1 scenario (and she even Traces Regenerator) and can OHKO it even through AV with Moonblast. She is also the least Tera-reliant of the 3.
  • :azelf: has an incredible 115 base speed which lets it outrun every viable RU mon bar Cyc (which is a big one) and ties with Cinccino. Has the lowest special attack but can run Specs reliably and gets to still outspeed everything, which gives it plenty of fire power. Is weak to Bisharp's Sucker, however. Also does not have a 2nd STAB but can Tera Elec/Tera Fairy to great effect. Tera Fairy has the added bonus of turning its Knock Off and U-turn weaknesses into resistances.
So, where does that bring us? idk i just wanted to talk about Psychic types

Hoopa-U also faces competition as a Dark-type wallbreaker/balance breaker with Crawdaunt, who can run Knock Off to much better effects and also has access to Aqua Jet for the HO matchup.

I don't feel very analytical today and I might write a more in-depth post (and most importantly a much better post) soon but to sum up my feels about the situation, I don't see what makes Hoopa-U scarier than Crawdaunt or Gardevoir in terms of sheer breaking power.

however I would absolutely vote ban on a suspect don't get it twisted lol anything that can make the tier better

it just sucks that we are very short in Steel types, Tinkaton leaving truly was game changing, and seeing her usage in UU, it does not look like she's returning back home anytime soon, especially if Garchomp gets banned.


As for Zarude leaving the tier, I guess we could see slightly more Mienshao usage to replace the Scarf Zarude sets, but the biggest change will probably be Okidogi rising even higher in usage to replace the bulky BU sets. In fact, I think that :okidogi: is more deserving of a suspect than Hoopa-U.
 
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With monkey business now over, I wanna talk about some pokemon I've not seen too often laddering but I think are pretty decent:
:okidogi:
The big ugly cousin of Incineorar (affectionate) has seemingly been under the radar on ladder, which is wild considering how much it offers as a setup sweeper. Zarude was the one filling that niche and could deny most of its options with Tera Poison, but with it gone you can run wild with it. Most sets are a variation of this:
Okidogi @ Leftovers
Ability: Guard Dog
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 224 HP / 32 Atk / 76 SpD / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
The speed investment allows you to hit 264, outspeeding jolly base 70s like Volcanion, Bisharp and Breloom. The bulk is customizable to your team's needs, and guard dog removes phasing as an option to check it. I like tera dark to avoid random psychics, boost knock and to neuter the random Prankster users that sometimes appear on ladder.

:Zoroark-hisui:
With another dark type gone, the edgy fox becomes more effective at its roles. I find scarf specially effective since you can use your typing to find many switch in opportunities and either treathen a Trick or some decent damage. It also forces Basculegion-F to run a speed boosting nature, since it otherwise outspeeds it under Rain. Very underrated mon imo.

:Necrozma:
Again, another dark type leaving means Necro has more chances to do setup nonsense, though mainly on the special side since Hippo exists and it's everywhere. Even though Hoopa-U is still a looming threat, I still think there is enough merit to the old piece of armor to carve a place on offensive teams.

As for who should be the next to go, my ranking would go as:

:Iron Leaves:
Very constraining on teambuilding, specially with psychic terrain support to stop priority. I wouldn't mind seeing it QB
:Hoopa-Unbound:
Makes bulky builds very hard to use, very matchup fishy. Probably QB worthy, but a suspect test also feels fitting.
:Enamorus-therian:
Again, very constraining on teambuilding, specially with the amount of sets it can run. Would probably test it last.

I can't wait to see the direction the tier takes now with no monkey business :]
 

Lilo

formerly Test Techles
is a Tiering Contributor
Following Zarude’s ban:

:hoopa-unbound:: already an insane mon before the ban with the plethora of sets it disposes (av, lo, self trick room, scarf, specs), now it’s pushing towards « too much for the tier »

:krookodile:: New krook in town! (more like OG probably)
Anything from scarf to banded to some earth plate set should work. Acts as a check to the aforementioned mon while retaining a decent speed tier and great stabs

:brute bonnet:: So regarding this… Sucker punch is it’s main appeal but still think that booster energy (tera fire just in case for those moltres) should be able to break early-mid game.

Zarude’s ban also invites a bit more creativity building cores in a couple of archetypes like Bro-Plume/alolaMuk-Moltres on Balance/BO (a core that immediately lost to sd tera blast fire)

A core i’m very curious about is twave Thundy-t (for cyclizar) + Hoopa-U
 
zarudeheaven.jpg


Rest in peace moneky, I hope it was painful. With Zarude gone it feels like teambuilding options have opened up so much. Now you can build teams with a physical wall without needing a backup physical wall just for zarude. Slowbro is ready to be used again and hippo is better than ever. The tier is unambiguously going to be more fun and open when you don't have to worry about just losing to zarude because your cobalion took spikes chip once.

What I think still deserves to be banned:
:hoopa-unbound: as has been discussed above, hoopa is just ridiculous. Its speed isn't enough to keep it baalnced when it makes every turn into a guessing game. Our dark types besides like wo-chien are just not good enough to safely switch into it. It is lowkey the most restricting mon on teambuilding in the tier and we would all be better off without it.
:iron leaves: I've been an iron leaves hater since day 1, basically anything with booster speed and a boosting move is going to be broken and leaves is no exception. It's far from the strongest thing in the tier, but it certainly feels like the most uninteractive and annoying one except for...
:maushold:, which is easily the most uninteractive, all or nothing, brainless, stupid, hateful and downright immoral pokemon in the tier. It's not the strongest pokemon, but the fact that it just requires every team to have certain counterplay options like a rocky helmet mon just feels like it forces teams into very narrow builds just through its existence. At least withoutzarude around we now have rocky helmet slowbro as an option, We had a month to see that society without maushold is better in literally every way, might as well use that experience to make all our lives better.
 
Zarude has been banned from SV RU.

Following this ban, I'm sure the one mon people will have to look at is:

:hoopa-unbound:

Zarude was very dominant in the meta, and it was one of the few mons that can reliably switch in on Hoopa's STABs without issues, and also be able to tank the coverage it ran. I know a lot of people think Hoopa was broken before even the Zarude ban, so I'd like to see some discussion on the mon.

It'd be also interesting to see if other steel types pick up, or if Cobalion will still have the impact it had in these last few weeks.

Either way, feel free to post about your thoughts on the impact Zarude's departure will have on the tier!
1710797117020.png


And I don't even play RU that much, god I love when overpowered things are banned.
So, obviously Hoopa-U and Iron Leaves will be broken now (Like they weren't already), so that's not a contreversial opinion I think.
One thing I am kinda interested in is :basculegion f:
With zarude gone, now it's stab's are much more spammable.
For grass types, only amoonguss and iron leaves can take on it as breloom is too frail, while chesnaught can be 2hit ko'd by specs surf after some chip.
For dark types, only bisharp can switch in to shadow ball. Crawdaunt has basically no bulk and Hoopa-U is neutral to shadow ball.
This really leaves normal and dragon types in the picture to switch in on it. We have cinccino, cyclizar, maushold and zoroark-hisui for normal types and cyclizar (again) and salamence for dragon types.
Teams can definetely deal with basculegion-f, but it will be tough if you get the predict wrong and then they can spam there powerful stab moves. Only cyclizar can wall both stabs, and it dies to ice beam regardless.

Ultimately, I don't know much about the RU metagame and maybe basculegion f is actually fine, but I thought it is interesting thing to note.
 
Alright, I've had enough. I cannot let new players get tricked, get absolutely bamboozled any longer. It is time to explain why you should stay away from Forretress, for your elo's sake.

Before starting this PSA, let's see what Forretress's role is in the tier. Here is the sample set:

:sv/forretress:
Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Tera Type: Fighting
Relaxed Nature
- Spikes
- Body Press
- Rapid Spin
- Gyro Ball / Iron Head / Volt Switch

Forretress's goal is to compress Rapid Spin, Spikes and defensive capabilities (and pivoting through Volt Switch if you choose so) in one slot.


The first thing I want to point out is that Forretress has no recovery. It is absolutely debilitating since it is a team's hazard control that is vulnerable to both Stealth Rock and Spikes. Assault Vest Cyclizar shares this hazard vulnerability, but it also has access to Regenerator, which allows Cyclizar to shrug off hazards damage consistently. Because of this complete absence of recovery, Forretress is forced to run Leftovers as to not be worn down too quickly, which means no Boots to switch into hazards.


But that wouldn't be a death sentence in itself, if it wasn't for the fact that Forretress is utterly helpless against the absolute best Stealth Rock setter in the tier, Hippowdon, who is immune to Volt Switch and holds Rocky Helmet the vast majority of the time, meaning that Forretress simply cannot keep Rocks off the field against Hippowdon since Rocky Helmet outdamages Leftovers recovery and it cannot Knock Off its item away since Forretress does not have access to this move. Same thing for Helmet Swampert and Helmet Chesnaught, who even have access to Knock Off to remove Forretress's only pitiful recovery.


This extreme vulnerability to hazards that Forretress is supposed to keep off the terrain and its lack of recovery is further compounded by its abysmal Special Defense making it difficult for Forretress to stomach even resisted special attacks on the low end of power such as Scarf Timid Gardevoir's Moonblast, which does at least 32%, meaning that it will only be able to switch in once after all the hazards/helmet chip accumulated. Forretress has no hope of being an answer to breakers like Specs Gardevoir who cleanly 2HKOs with Moonblast after Rocks.
This wouldn't be too much of an issue if its physical bulk was impressive. However, despite Skarmory-like levels of physical bulk, it is miles away from replicating its greatness due to, again, susceptibility to hazards and lack of recovery. Any decent physical wallbreaker has the ability to 2HKO Forretress from full after rocks, such as Choice Band Terrakion's Close Combat or Crawdaunt's Choice Band Crabhammer. Due to Forretress not resisting these wallbreakers' STABs, it cannot even play mindgames on resistances at it folds to the most clickable attacks.


Even worse is Forretress's extreme passivity that turns it into setup fodder against some of the strongest set up sweepers in the tier, such as Thundurus-T, Stored Power users, Salamence, Tera Ghost IDBP Cobalion, Blastoise and Temper Flare Revavroom.


To add insult to injury, despite its numerous glaring flaws and being prey to most of the tier, because of its popularity on low ladder and mid ladder, teams have adapted and are now teching against it with options like Temper Flare on Revavroom or Overheat on Cyclizar to leave no room to breathe to teams using Forretress.


Because of its many shortcomings, it is difficult for Forretress to even enter the field to do anything and it simply cannot fill any role reliably, it be hazard control, setting spikes or being a fallback for Balance teams.



If you want to rely on Forretress for anything, I heavily recommend reconsidering and finding other options.
As a starting point, Cyclizar is an amazing Spinner who's Assault Vest set gives you some room to play around Thundurus-Therian and Zoroark for example and has access to Knock Off and U-turn. Klefki can set Spikes reliably thanks to Prankster and can support further through Thunder Wave and Switcheroo while being a soft check to many special attackers like Hoopa-Unbound and Gardevoir. Empoleon is a Steel-type with access to Stealth Rock, Knock Off and Flip Turn while having a decent offensive presence even uninvested. Cobalion and Hippowdon are great anti-Maushold options, with the former having access to a fast Taunt and Stealth Rock and can close games through Iron Defense + Body Press while the latter is a physical sponge capable of dishing out plenty passive damage through rocks, Sandstorm and Rocky Helmet and can use Whirlwind to prevent attemps at setting up from Pokemon such as Revavroom, Mimikyu and Salamence.

Remember, just because Forretress can do all of the above at once on paper, does not mean it can actually do any of it in practice.
 
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