Metagame SV Ubers UU Metagame Discussion (Arceus-Dragon Is Banned)

This thing will probably be pretty niche and I don't see it being terrifically present throughout the meta. Yea the most common Magearna set can't touch it, but also it's just the freest Mag spike ever. Driller works because not only does it blank Mag, it also gets rid of the Spikes that Magearna puts down. As for Clodsire's theoretical ability to blank setup sweepers... I don't really see it. For one, Clodsire isn't walling physical sweepers, of which are currently looking very strong without Lando there to check them. And when it comes to special setup sweepers, we have CM Arceus, Mewtwo, and Emu. In the case of Arceus, Clod either gets taunted, or can't do shit back to Arceus because CM Poisonceus is the best non-taunt CM Arc. CM Taunt Grasseus already uses Tera Poison more often than not anyways so that's one more thing that Clod can't check. Oh speaking of which, more CM pokemon can run Tera Poison now because Scarf Lando-T isn't a thing that exists anymore. And in the case of M2 and Emu, yea you need to spend tera to beat them which imo is kind of a waste of tera. Clod just seems to have a lack of good entry points, and doesn't exactly click the most threatening buttons once it actually comes in, so I honestly don't really see it being that incredible in the current meta.
I think that a lot of these things are just not really correct?
First off Clodsire also gets spikes so if Mag clicks spikes then Clod Trades those spikes and the Clodsire user is actually better off most of the time since Mag doesn't usually run Heavy-Duty Boots. This means you are constantly winning off that interaction and it can serve as a way to punish Mag entry points (Like say, with Urshifu-Dark's U turn) to force cheap damage into it and set constant Hazards

You also forgot about the top #2 usage mon, Terapagos, who is a special sweeper who gets completely shut down by Clodsire in every way. As much as it is a spinner, it is also a sweeper without any form of recovery who gets checked by Toxic even in non-unaware sets. Additionally, It beats any Non-rest form of Giratina. I've seen a lot of people drop rest nowadays in favor of playing it without recovery and relying in its natural bulk or Alomomola to check things...which means that a toxic landed on a Giratina will put it in a timer forever, This basically means Clodsire beats the two best forms of Hazard control. which is an important task for any hazard setter.

Clod's access to every hazard gives it unmatched versatility and overall its most likely the best Stealth rocker who actually wants to run the move in the tier at the moment, as the only other Uber options are either Arceus (would rather run any other move), Landorus-I (why are you giving up a move on this wallbreaker, you are handicapping it for very little gain), and Terapagos (Which is pressed for moves and its support set is very mediocre). The rest of the options are either too niche (Dialga) or don't fit the pokemon's niche (Deoxys, Annihelape). Of the OU rock setters, there is only great tusk (who is very mediocre overall), Garganacl (my goat), Clefable (probably reserved for stall only) and deoxys speed (HO exclusive). Stealth rock access is key now that Landorus-T has left the tier, so Clodsire has quite literally the best button to click every time it comes in. Access to toxic is also really rare and it smacks all the toxic immunites for good damage besides Balloon Gholdengo and Corviknight.

Clodsire might get taunted but if it is running Poison Jab and lands a poison it is very likely Clodsire 1v1s most Arceus if it has a resistant tera, altough this is only an option for stall (but this is still a huge deal for stall since it means that Stall doesn't get 6-0'd by Arceus-Dark anymore)

You talk about Cmers running Tera poison...which Clodsire will smack for good damage because it has STAB Earthquake. It might not deal the biggest damage but getting 3hkos is big when the opponent will 4hko you is important.

I don't think Clodsire is going to be a top 10 mon overall...but I genuinely think you are underselling its qualities. It is significantly better than you made it sound here, considering the fact that it counters the top two mons (Mag and Terapagos) and it smacks the third with hazards and STAB Eq. Arceus-Poison might wall it but it also doesn't want to swap into it repeatedly due to it being 3hko'd by EQ and not having access to boots. It has fantastic match ups into a lot of the tier, and it brings stability to HO match ups with access to Tera Dark (Espathra users in shambles).


Also just throwing my hat in the ring, I think that it is possible we see an increase of more offensive Mags. Still same set as before (Fleur Volt Spikes) but with offensive leaning EVs. The main reason why I think this is the case is because there are not many mons Mag needs to wall at the moment, and most of the ones it walls are possible to cover with other teammates (Urshifu dark and Sneasler can be covered easily). A more offensive leaning EV spread can help Mag with less passivity and allow Mag to actually threaten a lot of things (Mainly things like Arceus-dark). If it starts running a spdef EV spread it can also live an Earth power from Landorus-I at full and then Ice beam it to death, which is a neat thing.
 
Wait are you serious? How, Why... WHAT??? Spill the beans
using this on sand which otherwise gets destroyed by sflo Lando. It's like, not actually that good but it does what it needs to. Ice fang is a 2hko without investment btw and Lando can't really touch this thing. Sand is already using alo anyways so it also has a bit more longevity than you might expect.
 
I wanna publicly address this since I feel like it could probably benefit some ppl.

Screenshot 2024-10-09 at 6.17.22 PM.png


Shoutouts to Insertable194 for typing up this whole rant and then only ever posting it in a small discord server where it wouldn't reach the people it seeks to help.

Screenshot 2024-10-09 at 6.21.18 PM.png


The explanation exaggerates a little bit imo but the idea is there.

I'll also add my two cents:

Centralization around certain Pokemon is not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion, and it's bound to happen in Ubers-based formats given the power level. Magearna is centralizing in that it's a great defensive presence that has access to many very useful moves that are bound to help almost any team. It's centralizing because it's so good at what it does that there's oftentimes little reason not to use it. And that's okay, because it provides stability to the tier by virtue of its most common role.

Also anybody who complains about Demon Mag is unironically experiencing a skill issue and I won't hear it.

Overcentralization is where one thinks that a centralizing option is too centralizing and is unhealthy in some way. A problem of overcentralization in the context of Ubers UU would be about people thinking that Magearna's presence in the tier is too mandatory and is unhealthy for some reason. I believe that despite how centralizing Magearna is, it is not overcentralizing, because it does not heavily restrict viability of other pokemon in the tier, but rather instead allows a variety of other pokemon to shine because Magearna is such a great support. Without Magearna in the tier, I believe that the number of viable teams would drastically decrease leading to an overall more centralized meta.

As for Arceus-Dragon (as referenced in the original comment), I don't even think it is centralizing. Arceus-Dragon is neither a must-have on most teams, nor does it demand extremely straining options in order to beat it. Physdef Magearna + Helmet Alomomola, a combination which is already quite good, can handle Arc-Dragon if one dances around it well enough. Good teams will already have the tools necessary to beat it, but it's still like walking a tightrope which many including myself do not enjoy. One can definitely make their Arc-Dragon matchup much easier if they use Heatran or Dachsbun, but those are shitmons that don't provide much value to a team relative to other options in the meta, outside of their ability to safely pressure Arceus-Dragon. Arceus-Dragon is imo, not a centralizing Pokemon, but an overbearing one. It can quickly run away with a game if given the slightest opportunity to set up, and is very scary to face down.

To bring the focus back to comparing Magearna and Arceus-Dragon, Magearna is an important defensive staple which allows for a stable meta, whereas Arceus-Dragon's overwhelming offensive capability can make games very volatile to the point that many find undesireable. That is why Magearna is healthy for the meta, and why many consider Dragonceus not.
 
I wanna publicly address this since I feel like it could probably benefit some ppl.

View attachment 676746

Shoutouts to Insertable194 for typing up this whole rant and then only ever posting it in a small discord server where it wouldn't reach the people it seeks to help.

View attachment 676748

The explanation exaggerates a little bit imo but the idea is there.

I'll also add my two cents:

Centralization around certain Pokemon is not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion, and it's bound to happen in Ubers-based formats given the power level. Magearna is centralizing in that it's a great defensive presence that has access to many very useful moves that are bound to help almost any team. It's centralizing because it's so good at what it does that there's oftentimes little reason not to use it. And that's okay, because it provides stability to the tier by virtue of its most common role.

Also anybody who complains about Demon Mag is unironically experiencing a skill issue and I won't hear it.

Overcentralization is where one thinks that a centralizing option is too centralizing and is unhealthy in some way. A problem of overcentralization in the context of Ubers UU would be about people thinking that Magearna's presence in the tier is too mandatory and is unhealthy for some reason. I believe that despite how centralizing Magearna is, it is not overcentralizing, because it does not heavily restrict viability of other pokemon in the tier, but rather instead allows a variety of other pokemon to shine because Magearna is such a great support. Without Magearna in the tier, I believe that the number of viable teams would drastically decrease leading to an overall more centralized meta.

As for Arceus-Dragon (as referenced in the original comment), I don't even think it is centralizing. Arceus-Dragon is neither a must-have on most teams, nor does it demand extremely straining options in order to beat it. Physdef Magearna + Helmet Alomomola, a combination which is already quite good, can handle Arc-Dragon if one dances around it well enough. Good teams will already have the tools necessary to beat it, but it's still like walking a tightrope which many including myself do not enjoy. One can definitely make their Arc-Dragon matchup much easier if they use Heatran or Dachsbun, but those are shitmons that don't provide much value to a team relative to other options in the meta, outside of their ability to safely pressure Arceus-Dragon. Arceus-Dragon is imo, not a centralizing Pokemon, but an overbearing one. It can quickly run away with a game if given the slightest opportunity to set up, and is very scary to face down.

To bring the focus back to comparing Magearna and Arceus-Dragon, Magearna is an important defensive staple which allows for a stable meta, whereas Arceus-Dragon's overwhelming offensive capability can make games very volatile to the point that many find undesireable. That is why Magearna is healthy for the meta, and why many consider Dragonceus not.
not you crediting insertable and not me, the person who wrote it
 
Been cooking with TR recently, has anybody else been using Ursaluna base? I've only seen it one or two other times and one was a trailblaze set. The calcs are absolutely insane though, pretty solidly OHKOs even Giratina at +2 and there seems to be a real lack of unaware users on the ladder. Really loving it so far
 
Been cooking with TR recently, has anybody else been using Ursaluna base? I've only seen it one or two other times and one was a trailblaze set. The calcs are absolutely insane though, pretty solidly OHKOs even Giratina at +2 and there seems to be a real lack of unaware users on the ladder. Really loving it so far
I tried a TR team and did okay with it, but my favorite ursaluna set these days is this:
Ursa Fullmoon (Ursaluna) @ Leftovers
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpD / 128 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Drain Punch
It's SOO bulky, can swap into mag, and can be a great wincon
 
Been cooking with TR recently, has anybody else been using Ursaluna base? I've only seen it one or two other times and one was a trailblaze set. The calcs are absolutely insane though, pretty solidly OHKOs even Giratina at +2 and there seems to be a real lack of unaware users on the ladder. Really loving it so far
I agree, and with Landorus-Therian gone, it is even more hard to switchin to
 
Been cooking with TR recently, has anybody else been using Ursaluna base? I've only seen it one or two other times and one was a trailblaze set. The calcs are absolutely insane though, pretty solidly OHKOs even Giratina at +2 and there seems to be a real lack of unaware users on the ladder. Really loving it so far
TR itself is still incredibly mediocre. It is however easier than ever to slap ursa on a team (I have been using bulk up leftovers shoutouts to frito) as it is a physical attacker that WANTS to switch into giratina which enables the other dumb physical attackers in the tier and scares ppl out of clicking wisp carelessly. If you really wanted to use tr strats it is still an option to just slap it on magearna as a last.
 
I wanna make another post cause I feel like the Arc-Dragon has revived a lot of "ban all arc" sentiment which imo is sort of horseshit lmfao.

It's true, that Arceus has phenomenal versatility across all formes due to its vast movepool and monstrous 720 BST. But that's where the argument really ends imo. From my point of view, the greatest contributing factor to an arc forme's viability is its base typing.

I'll give a quick rundown of all the currently banned arc formes alongside their reason for ban:

:arceus-water: Arc-Water
This mf is absolutely insane. This mon can run The Set (cm taunt recover judgement) extremely well due to the general lack of splashable Electric/Grass types. It also can run many other sets to great success because again Electric/Grasses aren't particularly easy to come by. It's base type is so good defensively that it can really do anything.

:arceus-fire: Arc-Fire
This mf is also insane and no, stealth rocks were not a hard counter bc of its bulk. Its base type not being able to be burned allowed it to run physical sets to ridiculous levels. Particularly, the most threatening set was its Ekiller set. Stab plate boosted flare blitz is one hell of a drug and allowed it do deal ridiculous damage to even resists. Giratina does wall fire/normal coverage, but couldn't do much back due to the fact that arc-fire couldn't be burned pre-tera.

:arceus-flying: Arc-Flying
An arc form immune to spikes in the tier where Mag Spikes are one of the sole inhibiting factors keeping arc from going out of control? Damn that sounds busted. In all seriousness though this thing is busted, and again rocks don't hold it back much. At the very least Arc-Fire could also take spikes damage as well and even then it was busted. Oh and we also just lost our best rocker so yeah this thing really doesn't get pressured by hazards. It also runs the set phenomenally due to flying being kind of a crazy stab typing.

:arceus-ghost: Arc-Ghost
Fighting/Ghost coverage is insane. It's also budget Ubers Ekiller with tera too but CM was the arguably more busted set. CM Arcs in the tier tend to run into the issue that their coverage combo tends not to be perfect enough or their defensive typing isn't amazing, but Ghostceus avoids both of these. Ghosts might asw not be an issue bc you beat all relevant ghosts after a few CMs, Chi-Yu can't break you after enough CMs, and any other dark type can't do shit after you tera faerie. Despite not being known for being a particularly great defensive typing, Ghost's synergy with the best tera type in the game to break past its very few specific bad matchups means that Ghost ends up being a very good base type.

:arceus-steel: Arc-Steel
While still being vulnurable to mag spikes, it resists rocks which is pretty strong. Furthermore, it's another offender when it comes to running The Set too well. Steel is a very good defensive typing and still quite good offensively with since we have sort of a general lack of hyper-relevant steel resists going around. But going back to the base typing, Its bad matchups are so specific that it can so easily tera out of its weaknesses in order to bypass the matchup and very easily win.

Notice a common thread? Yeah the base typing plays a big role in breaking all of them. Their base typings give them very individualistic traits that truly cannot be replicated by other arc-formes despite the shared movepool and BST.

When it comes to the current controversial arc forme, Dragonceus, yeah its strong but there's seriously nothing else that can do what it can. There is really just nothing else that has an equivilent to STAB plate boosted outrage. Arc fire was able to do something slightly similar running DD flare blitz + outrage, but Dragon is not a good tera type and it didn't have the plate boosted outrage. I remember when Arc Fire was banned ppl said that other pokemon such as Arc Poison would just take its place as the next best Ekiller. So far this has yet to happen. Being able to be burned pre-tera is a massive weakness, and its flare blitz hits nowhere near as hard. Fire isn't even a very good complementary tera type for Poison since you retain the very irritating ground weakness. Should an Arc-Dragon ban go through, there are no more arc formes that can do a DD set to the same lengths. The current next best dragon dancer in Arc-Poison will always be stopped short by Giratina. There is not a single coverage move that allows Arc-Poison to demolish the core of Magearna + Giratina. EQ bounces off physdef tina and you risk the burn by staying in.

Arc formes can indeed be monsters, but to treat them as a monolith is ignorant of their individual qualities at best and intentionally disingenuous at worst. This is why I will never stand behind the "ban all arc formes" camp. Even if we have to ban every arc forme down to Bugceus, I will firmly stand behind keeping Arceus in this meta so long as we have at least one arceus that doesn't break the meta.

I hope that this is helpful and that u have a nice day all ya goobers ^w^
 
tbh, chi-yu already wasn't that bad imo cause you could just run wisp scarf chi-yu as an arc dragon lure and then BAM their arc dragon is crippled, but it being gone def helps cause now you don't need to necessarily predict so hard
 
We now enter the best uubers metagame of all time. Nothing could possibly :landorus: become problematic :mewtwo: or overpowered :Deoxys:. We now have the best metagame of SV.

Nah fr i think this meta is going to be unbelievably peak. We're seeing crazy mons pop up to beat stuff like landorus, and the rest of the arceus are stopped by regular UUbers staples. Balance is back on the menu (did it ever leave? eh kinda)
 
Ppl are yapping about :landorus: being broken but I sort of disagree. I honestly think that for balance teams, the options are there, ya just have to go looking a little harder. :arceus-grass: honestly isn't bad (esp since ppl are dropping sludge wave now sometimse), and :tornadus-therian: honestly isn't bad either since it's a knocker with a very solid switch-in opportunity. The worst offense :landorus: really has imo is on the offense v offense since it's very reasonable that your :landorus: switch-in is just your own :landorus: and then it just comes down to a speed tie of which can psychic the other to death first.

As for :mewtwo: , it's slow and frail
1730390829743.png
. In all seriousness though, I've not really had much of an issue with :mewtwo: since all of its sets aren't perfect enough to really crush a well-made and well-played team. The most common wallbreaker set has difficulty breaking through giratina and needs to click psystrike to hurt it, which is abusable especially if you have a scarf dark-type such as :chi-yu: or :urshifu: .The knock off sets are annoying, but don't have the greatest switch-in opportunities like all the other sets, and also just don't hit hard enough to pose that great of a threat which allows it to be danced around far easier.

:deoxys: has never been busted, and it's not like any of its checks left or anything. It's def one of the best breakers we have rn tho. We're also seeing more experimentation with :deoxys: which is exciting. I've seen more 3a + rocks/spikes (which imo isn't great but not terrible), and I've also seen physical :deoxys: which took a KO off me I wasn't expecting (but failed to ohko my :zacian:). The biggest impact :deoxys: has on the meta rn is that I think it necessitates having :magearna: on most teams since it otherwise can blow up teams. However, :magearna: is still an amazing mon with really good tools that most teams want anyways so I don't think it's a massive issue.
 
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