Metagame SV Ubers UU Metagame Discussion (Arceus-Dragon Is Banned)

I doubt gouging will get better, but it might see more usage. It still doesn't have arc-dragon levels of bulk, and it was already useful pre-ban because you didn't have to burn teras, and burning bulwark is a useful 4th move. Also boots, always boots.

As for other dragon dancers? Baxcalibur will be fake for a long time I'm afraid. It NEEDS to tera, and having dragon STAB on top of ice isn't that useful i think. Being immune to burn is nice, but the prominent wispers have other options for it. Arceus smacks it hard or coutner sets up, tina and moltres can phaze it out.

Roaring moon is the forever sleeper pick I think. Reshiram might get better, because it can do mixed like nobodies business. Arceus will stay winning, but I truly think the days of oppressive arceus forms are over. Mayyyybe arc-poison will start rearing its head, but i seriously doubt that while we're in the lando-I meta. I agree with finch that its not borken, but i think we'll see a rise of niche mons like cresselia, bronzong, and tornadus whose primary goal is to beat lando, and have serviceable other utility. For the moment its hype to see bulky latios gaming, but who knows how the meta will advance.
 
Other Arceus forms are more likely to take on the next best dragon dance users than the other mons. Most notably Rock, but Poison could start doing it as well more frequently. You can cover a lot with Poison but you also have to hit your Gunks.
 
OceanicGamer said:
Yeah I agree


On a serious note, does this mean other Dragon Dancers like :baxcalibur: or :gouging fire: will become better now since the main one is banned
Click to expand...
I mean, not really? I see your point, but the fact Arceus-Dragon existed was not a factor on Baxcalibur being really specific, it will remain hard to fit, the other dancers (Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire and Arceus-Poison) already had distinct advantages over it, Moon has the incredibly valuable knock off, is stronger and has dark typing which gives it a psychic immunity and a ghost resist, Gouging Fire has the insane benefit of being part fire, meaning it does not need to Terastalize to avoid burns or to get STAB on it's fire type moves and naturally being neutral to stab play rough, both of these also get to abuse Booster Energy due to protosynthesis and Roaring moon can even use Acrobatics, Arceus-Poison has a drastically different defensive and offensive traits (one needs to tera out of zacian, other forces zacian to tera if it wants to stop it, one breaks through Giratina, the other needs to pray for a poison, one has move locking issues, the other has accuracy ones.) Arceus Poison is probably the biggest benefactor (Unless you count DD Arceus Rock becoming considerable for use) most of it coming from it also taking an Arceus slot unlike the previous 2 (oh yeah, Moon and Gouging would be paired with Arceus Dragon at times for multiple rounds of boosted outrages) Yeah, they become better, but not much (They already were good)
 
Finchely said:
Ppl are yapping about :landorus: being broken but I sort of disagree. I honestly think that for balance teams, the options are there, ya just have to go looking a little harder. :arceus-grass: honestly isn't bad (esp since ppl are dropping sludge wave now sometimse), and :tornadus-therian: honestly isn't bad either since it's a knocker with a very solid switch-in opportunity. The worst offense :landorus: really has imo is on the offense v offense since it's very reasonable that your :landorus: switch-in is just your own :landorus: and then it just comes down to a speed tie of which can psychic the other to death first.
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:Arceus-Grass: Is a Fake switch in since a lot of the time it doesn't OHKO with judgement and it gets OHKOd at +2 with sludge wave after rocks or a spike. You can calm mind into judgement but that leaves into mind games of either attack or recover. Regardless of which one you use, it's likely Arceus will be incredibly low afterwards and will have a hard time checking Landorus in the long term, especially modest variants.

:Tornadus-therian: is barely a check who needs to run icy wind assault as a reliable way to deal with it. It is also very easily a momentum loss vs Arceus. It can't touch Arceus and at best it u turns, which torn can't afford to do every time otherwise it exposes one of it's teammates to a potential +2 earth power. It doesn't threaten any Arceus that isn't grass or bug which is very bad.

The other options I've seen/used are :Arceus-Bug: or :mesprit:. Which are not great. Both have to give up stab to properly check it, one is weak to rocks and the other is a Mesprit. Using :Landorus: to check landorus is a symptom of a problem existing.

You can always go for the nuclear option and run :Lugia: to check it but it means you're actually using a Pokemon who can't make progress outside of body slam paralysis and mild cheap damage with whirlpool or whirlwind. It also has to give up stab as well to more reliably deal with Landorus.
 
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Leo Justice said:
:Tornadus-therian: is barely a check who needs to run icy wind assault as a reliable way to deal with it. It is also very easily a momentum loss vs Arceus. It can't touch Arceus and at best it u turns, which torn can't afford to do every time otherwise it exposes one of it's teammates to a potential +2 earth power. It doesn't threaten any Arceus that isn't grass or bug which is very bad.
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I'm going to disagree here. Firstly, I'll admit I use a strange torn set
Tornadus-Therian @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Icy wind
- U-turn

Sludge wave is only a 2hko on this thing if you let it get hit twice in a row without knocking off the life orb, and you outspeed it. knock+icy wind does a minimum of 93.7%, so either pivot into it, get a little lucky or get rocks up and you can 2hko. taunt+icy wind+fast pivot gives you good counterplay to most arceus forms, and you could even think about teching some sort of foul play or sludge bomb if there are specific forms giving you issues. Regenerator is VERY potent when you're a fast pivoting mon like this, and when you fair this with a magearna or other typical steel type that can threaten a KO then lando is forced into nasty 50/50s, where torn outspeeds anyway. Barely a check to me is wrong. It's a solid check, but not a counter.
 
Leo Justice said:
:Arceus-Grass: Is a Fake switch in since a lot of the time it doesn't OHKO with judgement and it gets OHKOd at +2 with sludge wave after rocks or a spike. You can calm mind into judgement but that leaves into mind games of either attack or recover. Regardless of which one you use, it's likely Arceus will be incredibly low afterwards and will have a hard time checking Landorus in the long term, especially modest variants.

:Tornadus-therian: is barely a check who needs to run icy wind assault as a reliable way to deal with it. It is also very easily a momentum loss vs Arceus. It can't touch Arceus and at best it u turns, which torn can't afford to do every time otherwise it exposes one of it's teammates to a potential +2 earth power. It doesn't threaten any Arceus that isn't grass or bug which is very bad.

The other options I've seen/used are :Arceus-Bug: or :mesprit:. Which are not great. Both have to give up stab to properly check it, one is weak to rocks and the other is a Mesprit. Using :Landorus: to check landorus is a symptom of a problem existing.

You can always go for the nuclear option and run :Lugia: to check it but it means you're actually using a Pokemon who can't make progress outside of body slam paralysis and mild cheap damage with whirlpool or whirlwind. It also has to give up stab as well to more reliably deal with Landorus.
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Arceus-Grass I agree isn't a great check, but it still works if played well. It's also still threatening in its own right should the opponent have less-than ideal measures to stop CM taunt grasseus.

As for Tornadus-T, I've also been experimenting with tornadus. I've got to say that I don't think it's really that bad, even without AV. I'm using something similar to Kine albeit with a Timid nature. It works srsly, and Torn-T isn't even that bad either. Knock off in this tier is seriously valuable which is why I think Torn-T has a niche even outside of its ability to check landorus. It doesn't even need Assault Vest, since a knocked off Landorus is doing significantly less damage and can't 2hko from full. I agree that needing to run icy wind is less than ideal since it doesn't really serve any other purpose other than to kill Lando, but I think that it's not nearly so bad to call Landorus problematic. No Bleakwind feels a little bit iffy, mostly cause you don't have a strong general move, but also even with 252 spatk it doesn't really hit that hard. I'm debating over whether or not Taunt is worth it, mostly because Taunt is good into stopping fat mons like Giratina and Knock + Taunt can decimate stall. I wish I could've just run taunt over icy wind but, alas Bleakwind just does not do enough damage to Landorus even with 252 spatk.

I've considered using uxie lmfao since it does have uturn / knock / twave lol and it's also a M2 switch in, while also being spikes immune, but no reliable recovery is kinda not great esp since it still takes rocks damage. Arc bug is just fake tho lol.

Lugia is.. yeah Lugia isn't great. But I also think that ppl are shitting on it more than it deserves. For one, I don't think people are experimenting with Pressure Lugia enough. Lugia already being the fat mf it is is very hard to break, and pressure really pressures opponents to treat it with a lot more respect. CM air slash EP can take a while to get going, but gets essentially free turns vs Landorus and M2, and can really punish opponents that just try to spam attacks to break through. Lugia doesn't work on every team but, I def think it's an option that fatter teams can use that's relatively relatively unexplored rn.

As for Landorus being the Landorus check, that's mostly an offense problem imo. Offense that doesn't want to/can't afford to run more dedicated checks to opposing Landorus are going to be pinholed into using their own Landorus to beat opposing Landorus. But this isn't a problem on more modestly paced teams where I do think that there is room to run good enough counterplay. Although, this in and of itself isn't terribly bad. Offense by virtue of its playstyle is not going to have reliable checks to everything, and instead relies on playing faster and better to never give a chance to the opponent to bring in their breaker.

Personally, I think that the counterplay to Landorus is in no way unreasonable, and we're just currently in the middle of a big departure away from the very optimized meta of the last quarter. We had a lot of very solid cores with Lando-T at the base of them, which has caused a lot of upheaval due to its departure. Given time, I think things will settle more and we'll see people adapt by bringing teams better adjusted to this new meta.
 
Alright, here's my "Stored power is stupid" manifesto.
It feels like setup sweepers are EVERYWHERE right now, and I think stored power is partially to blame. dark types are becoming more and more necessary, yet all the common SP users (arceus, mag and to a lesser extent hat/espathra/other random nonsense) have ways around dark types. It feels incredibly dumb to lose to, and like a matchup fish that's actually good and easily 6-0s teams.

So what's the counterplay?
1. Set up before it -> okay so we can't run balance? so every turn we have to be on edge as to whether a mon is about to defense boost up and become unkillable?
2. phase it out ->with that? what can phase both a mag AND a taunt arc-psychic while also not taking huge chunks from their coverage moves?
3. ??? Maybe I'm just bad. I did lose to stored power in two of my swiss sets, but I feel like it's kind of stupid.

Here's some more concrete ideas. I looked through the uubers swiss 2 replays from this week, and found 14 games with stored power users in them. I split them into groups:

it sweeps
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2237599572-s26oyojk293elu5ctr6q3cwhtajl1ekpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2238141414-7sq2nyh57au2wlo0tbrmbidp57ygpwnpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2238517696-w222r1wqfbfj9j01mtlewsvc0jnpowjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ubersuu-805670

does well
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2238138453-eye0xzzm8qgb8400luj669x81bk4n0hpw (2 kills, convert to win)

doesn't do well
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ubersuu-805504 (mono-SP is shut down by a dark type)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2240759499 (dies to a crit, but there was a surging strikes urshifu in the back for the opponent)

loses
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2239342430-an0enej2mw1kia86gc0fr3m5tyscfcgpw (sack at the end)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2239518777-cizs5hu8xz0p1g3i41q9ychnwfohlqipw (sack at the end)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ubersuu-805601?p2 (sack at the end)

won while unused in the back
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2239515707-44e99cdnv9x281h581m4jab9f4u6ht5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2241041482-oaz0llkpigum0zqb0m3bn66ehkws507pw

Unsure if we had a SP user
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2240857019 (hatterene?)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2241043732-bqqghp3a8azdkqys815o1ulfvrc5fg2pw (Streetbooms mag?)

A regular setup mag or cosmic power arc-fighting/psychic has a VERY high chance to win if it gets setup. To me, above tera or arceus, this is the biggest problem with the metagame right now. It puts pressure in the builder, dunks on stall, and is very easy to hide (especially demon mag) on team preview.
 
KineSquared said:
Alright, here's my "Stored power is stupid" manifesto.
It feels like setup sweepers are EVERYWHERE right now, and I think stored power is partially to blame. dark types are becoming more and more necessary, yet all the common SP users (arceus, mag and to a lesser extent hat/espathra/other random nonsense) have ways around dark types. It feels incredibly dumb to lose to, and like a matchup fish that's actually good and easily 6-0s teams.

So what's the counterplay?
1. Set up before it -> okay so we can't run balance? so every turn we have to be on edge as to whether a mon is about to defense boost up and become unkillable?
2. phase it out ->with that? what can phase both a mag AND a taunt arc-psychic while also not taking huge chunks from their coverage moves?
3. ??? Maybe I'm just bad. I did lose to stored power in two of my swiss sets, but I feel like it's kind of stupid.

Here's some more concrete ideas. I looked through the uubers swiss 2 replays from this week, and found 14 games with stored power users in them. I split them into groups:

it sweeps
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2237599572-s26oyojk293elu5ctr6q3cwhtajl1ekpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2238141414-7sq2nyh57au2wlo0tbrmbidp57ygpwnpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2238517696-w222r1wqfbfj9j01mtlewsvc0jnpowjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ubersuu-805670

does well
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2238138453-eye0xzzm8qgb8400luj669x81bk4n0hpw (2 kills, convert to win)

doesn't do well
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ubersuu-805504 (mono-SP is shut down by a dark type)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2240759499 (dies to a crit, but there was a surging strikes urshifu in the back for the opponent)

loses
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2239342430-an0enej2mw1kia86gc0fr3m5tyscfcgpw (sack at the end)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2239518777-cizs5hu8xz0p1g3i41q9ychnwfohlqipw (sack at the end)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ubersuu-805601?p2 (sack at the end)

won while unused in the back
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2239515707-44e99cdnv9x281h581m4jab9f4u6ht5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2241041482-oaz0llkpigum0zqb0m3bn66ehkws507pw

Unsure if we had a SP user
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2240857019 (hatterene?)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2241043732-bqqghp3a8azdkqys815o1ulfvrc5fg2pw (Streetbooms mag?)

A regular setup mag or cosmic power arc-fighting/psychic has a VERY high chance to win if it gets setup. To me, above tera or arceus, this is the biggest problem with the metagame right now. It puts pressure in the builder, dunks on stall, and is very easy to hide (especially demon mag) on team preview.
Click to expand...
I have many problems with this
#1. It has diverse methods of counterplay, the main one being phazing, but also things like toxic and tspikes, hazard pressure is also really good at pressuring it, also, hit it hard, (Magearna simply loses to encore mag and roar tina, can't set up in front of taunt, is generally slow to set up and restricted to HO)
#2. The bring up of the incredibly Cteamy Taunt Arceus-Psychic set (I made this!!), it is no more than a counterteam, literally shut down by the existance of Darks (which are common good and are worth bringing on most teams) and Tera Dark. If you lost to this while having a Dark type, it IS a skill issue, preserve it better next game.
#3. The replays of it winning show games of teams who are unprepared to face Stored Power, all of them are no Dark Types and no shown Tera Dark, simply counterteamed, happens, Stored Power is nowhere near the only case of that (simply take Ekiller)
#4. Stall is plentifully equipped to deal with Stored Power mons, it has phazing from tina and Lugi, Tera Dark to stop mono psychic sets (ones who fully block phazing) and have things like Calm Mind Blissey and CM whirl Lugia (1 mon army to deal with non taunt stored) who can take the hits, from these sweepers with little difficulty.

These are my main ones, if you struggle a lot with stored power, i reccomend using either Toxic Spikes on Slowking Galar or Toxapex or Urshifus, for the free MU

Espathra is not a Stored Power issue it's a Hypnosis being goofy issue Ty
 
KineSquared said:
Alright, here's my "Stored power is stupid" manifesto.
It feels like setup sweepers are EVERYWHERE right now, and I think stored power is partially to blame. dark types are becoming more and more necessary, yet all the common SP users (arceus, mag and to a lesser extent hat/espathra/other random nonsense) have ways around dark types. It feels incredibly dumb to lose to, and like a matchup fish that's actually good and easily 6-0s teams.

So what's the counterplay?
1. Set up before it -> okay so we can't run balance? so every turn we have to be on edge as to whether a mon is about to defense boost up and become unkillable?
2. phase it out ->with that? what can phase both a mag AND a taunt arc-psychic while also not taking huge chunks from their coverage moves?
3. ??? Maybe I'm just bad. I did lose to stored power in two of my swiss sets, but I feel like it's kind of stupid.

Here's some more concrete ideas. I looked through the uubers swiss 2 replays from this week, and found 14 games with stored power users in them. I split them into groups:

it sweeps
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2237599572-s26oyojk293elu5ctr6q3cwhtajl1ekpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2238141414-7sq2nyh57au2wlo0tbrmbidp57ygpwnpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2238517696-w222r1wqfbfj9j01mtlewsvc0jnpowjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ubersuu-805670

does well
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2238138453-eye0xzzm8qgb8400luj669x81bk4n0hpw (2 kills, convert to win)

doesn't do well
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ubersuu-805504 (mono-SP is shut down by a dark type)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2240759499 (dies to a crit, but there was a surging strikes urshifu in the back for the opponent)

loses
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2239342430-an0enej2mw1kia86gc0fr3m5tyscfcgpw (sack at the end)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2239518777-cizs5hu8xz0p1g3i41q9ychnwfohlqipw (sack at the end)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ubersuu-805601?p2 (sack at the end)

won while unused in the back
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2239515707-44e99cdnv9x281h581m4jab9f4u6ht5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2241041482-oaz0llkpigum0zqb0m3bn66ehkws507pw

Unsure if we had a SP user
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2240857019 (hatterene?)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2241043732-bqqghp3a8azdkqys815o1ulfvrc5fg2pw (Streetbooms mag?)

A regular setup mag or cosmic power arc-fighting/psychic has a VERY high chance to win if it gets setup. To me, above tera or arceus, this is the biggest problem with the metagame right now. It puts pressure in the builder, dunks on stall, and is very easy to hide (especially demon mag) on team preview.
Click to expand...

TLDR SKILL ISSUE

With that said, here's my ted talk on why SP is not a problem.

So what's the counterplay?
1. Set up before it -> okay so we can't run balance? so every turn we have to be on edge as to whether a mon is about to defense boost up and become unkillable?
Click to expand...
Balance is completely capable of exerting offensive pressure to deal with pokemon that it may have difficulty providing a hard counter to. For instance, Magearna is almost completely incapable of setting up on Landorus which is almost everywhere. Mag also can get taunted by arcs. That said, balance is also in no way incapable of dealing with SP sweepers defnsively. When it comes to SP Mag, your own Magearna is often one of the best ways to deal with it. Encore Magearna shuts down just about every SP Mag, and once encored, the SP Mag is very easy to deal with as it's locked into a very weak move. When it comes to SP Psyceus, Giratina is a very good check if it's not taunt. If it is taunt, the presence of any Dark-Type completely invalidates it. SP Espathra is easily the most stupid of them all, but it's mostly a product of Hypnosis being stupid and keeping encore mag from being a true counter. It's dealt with pretty easily by Giratina and priority though so.
2. phase it out ->with that? what can phase both a mag AND a taunt arc-psychic while also not taking huge chunks from their coverage moves?
Click to expand...
Spdef Roar Tina actually doesn't take much damage from even a +2 Mag but yeah it gets shut down by taunt Psyceus. Roar Solgaleo also just 100% invalidates any SP Mag that isn't running some bs like TB ground or whatever lol. Psyceus also can't touch spdef solg at all lol +6 +6 SP does max 18% to solg which is a net 12% after lefties. That said, phazing is just sort of an iffy way of dealing with SP sweepers imo. Staying on your toes and just playing well with a solid team is in most cases fine enough.
3. ??? Maybe I'm just bad. I did lose to stored power in two of my swiss sets, but I feel like it's kind of stupid.
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It's stupid for sure but I think you're just bad since there's a lot of good counterplay out there.

I gotta go eat dinner but I trust that Fishy went over those replays and that they're not good examples of SP being actually broken
 
Honestly the only proposition somewhat worth talking about is a sleep ban and even then Espathra is the only offender of this tier, so idk what it would achieve except making a single mu fish pretty much unviable and idrc either. The rest are really just punishers of some lazy balance teams (+ suboptimal plays), Darks + Dark Tera receiving less usage than they should and certain HO builds and none of the replays would ever convince me that this is a serious problem for the tier. A suspect would be a waste of time and i would think about a full Arceus ban (most of the complains in the OG post seem to stem from Arceus doing Arceus things) before this ever becomes a serious thought for me.
 
Could I get the opinion of people who are down on annihilape? It didn't move since the last tier shifts, but I feel like it's been on a major rise. It's the 2nd best spinblocker but can also punish random chip and pivots. Taunt is useful, and it is just fast enough to outspeed most bulky threats. Yea it can be revenge killed, but only C+ tier? What am I missing?
 
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With the release of the survey results,
KineSquared said:
Could I get the opinion of people who are down on annihilape? It didn't move since the last tier shifts, but I feel like it's been on a major rise. It's the 2nd best spinblocker but can also punish random chip and pivots. Taunt is useful, and it is just fast enough to outspeed most bulky threats. Yea it can be revenge killed, but only C+ tier? What am I missing?
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sorry didn't see this until now.

The thing about Annihilape is that it's inconsistent. Annihilape preys on passive fat teams since since setup taunt rage fist is pretty hard to beat defensively. However, Annihilape tends to sort of flop into the much more popular offensive teams that run the meta. Annihilape is in a sense similar to CM Taunt Arceus, in that the defensive counterplay is just not really there, but can still be easily dealt with by preying on the fact that it tends to be slow to set up. Annihilape particularly has the problem of really wanting to invest into all of HP, Attack, SpD, and Speed, which always means it's lacking in one department or another. Annihilape notably does have a niche as a Terapagos counter on webs teams, which is why it finds itself in C+ and not lower. However, because its viability is basically tied to webs, it doesn't sit any higher than C+ either.
 
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Since survey results are out, I wanna add my two cents to the convo in a public space.

Edit: here are survey results if you don't know where they are.

Enjoyment and Balance are a little lower than ideal, but not so terrible that it warrants action, especially in conjunction with the other numbers. The items with the highest numbers were Lando, M2, and Tera, but none of them received numbers that would be appropriate to even suspect them. Tera was the highest of them all, but it barely crosses the threshold for a typical suspect, much less for the complex ban of a generational mechanic. And taking off the mask of professionalism for a sec, as things are right now, Tera would never get banned in a suspect, which would leave us unable to suspect Tera again for quite some time.

Basically what the numbers boil down to is that there's room for improvement, but there's little consensus on what actually to do. I want to preface what I'm about to say with saying that I'm fine with things as they are, and I don't think that anything drastic needs to happen. That said, if it's the wish of the majority that something should happen, I think that the best way to go about this would be to do a Kokoloco.

For those who don't know what a Kokoloco is, read this article in which the man himself explains it.

If we did actually do a Kokoloco, I think Tera would have to be off the table since it universally interferes with gameplay and mons in a way that Megas didn't. Any potential Tera aciton would have to be seperate from a Kokoloco and would likely happen using the means of the tradditional tiering system. The benefits of a Kokoloco are that it allows us to avoid potentially wasting precious time as the current gen of which we are running out of. The downsides are that it would probably mess things up in tournaments a little bit. with how drastic the measure could be. There are likely more implications or benefits that I'm missing, but it sort of comes down to an issue of whether or not we want a more natural and stable meta progression at the cost of a potentially less-healthy meta, or do we want a more healthy meta at the cost of a period of tier volatility? I don't think that there is a right answer here, but I wanted to open up the conversation to the public.
 
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Finchely said:
Finchely said:
Since survey results are out, I wanna add my two cents to the convo in a public space.

Enjoyment and Balance are a little lower than ideal, but not so terrible that it warrants action, especially in conjunction with the other numbers. The items with the highest numbers were Lando, M2, and Tera, but none of them received numbers that would be appropriate to even suspect them. Tera was the highest of them all, but it barely crosses the threshold for a typical suspect, much less for the complex ban of a generational mechanic. And taking off the mask of professionalism for a sec, as things are right now, Tera would never get banned in a suspect, which would leave us unable to suspect Tera again for quite some time.

Basically what the numbers boil down to is that there's room for improvement, but there's little consensus on what actually to do. I want to preface what I'm about to say with saying that I'm fine with things as they are, and I don't think that anything drastic needs to happen. That said, if it's the wish of the majority that something should happen, I think that the best way to go about this would be to do a Kokoloco.

For those who don't know what a Kokoloco is, read this article in which the man himself explains it.

If we did actually do a Kokoloco, I think Tera would have to be off the table since it universally interferes with gameplay and mons in a way that Megas didn't. Any potential Tera aciton would have to be seperate from a Kokoloco and would likely happen using the means of the tradditional tiering system. The benefits of a Kokoloco are that it allows us to avoid potentially wasting precious time as the current gen of which we are running out of. The downsides are that it would probably mess things up in tournaments a little bit. with how drastic the measure could be. There are likely more implications or benefits that I'm missing, but it sort of comes down to an issue of whether or not we want a more natural and stable meta progression at the cost of a potentially less-healthy meta, or do we want a more healthy meta at the cost of a period of tier volatility? I don't think that there is a right answer here, but I wanted to open up the conversation to the public.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I personally don't see any need for a kokoloco method right now, the tier is in a very good state with nothing specific being unbearable, though if one might disagree, here is a great reason to atleast wait on the idea

With the recent Miraidon ban, the Ubers meta has shifted quite a bit since the last shifts, we are looking at many potential drops, and those could change the tier's dynamic a lot, i sincerely think that these drops could cause major metagame changes and it would be very feasible that the Pokémon some of you now see as broken will appear to you then as "just another threat"
 
What i never understood from kokoloko is this phrase:
"We achieve this by banning everything that is potentially "broken" before we begin and then proceed to test the BLs by reintroducing them back into UU one at a time"

How do you determine that? What happens if you miss? How much time is spent on gathering up "everything potentially broken" and how many rounds of bans do you do before you start reintroducing new mons? Should we all start talking about what mons we'd want in our kokoloko lists? They kind of address that with:
"We reserved the right to amend our initial banlist if we later came to the realization that we missed something"
That gives no concrete time or end in sight. Do we need to start this right at the start of a new tiering quarter? Or do we need a survey first to determine kokoloko is necessary? How long does each retest take? I don't know, it feels to me like the timing just wouldn't work.

I also think a shortlist of mewtwo and landorus would be much decently well received compared to a more expansive list, but I think the public consciousness of ubers uu really likes landorus on some level and thinks of it as peak Ubers UU (mewtwo to a lesser degree) material of "bad in ubers, good in uubers". Does that matter? not really, but I wanted to say it.

Also yes I'm very interested in tomorrow's ubers usage stats
 
KineSquared said:
What i never understood from kokoloko is this phrase:
"We achieve this by banning everything that is potentially "broken" before we begin and then proceed to test the BLs by reintroducing them back into UU one at a time"

How do you determine that? What happens if you miss? How much time is spent on gathering up "everything potentially broken" and how many rounds of bans do you do before you start reintroducing new mons? Should we all start talking about what mons we'd want in our kokoloko lists? They kind of address that with:
"We reserved the right to amend our initial banlist if we later came to the realization that we missed something"
That gives no concrete time or end in sight. Do we need to start this right at the start of a new tiering quarter? Or do we need a survey first to determine kokoloko is necessary? How long does each retest take? I don't know, it feels to me like the timing just wouldn't work.

I also think a shortlist of mewtwo and landorus would be much decently well received compared to a more expansive list, but I think the public consciousness of ubers uu really likes landorus on some level and thinks of it as peak Ubers UU (mewtwo to a lesser degree) material of "bad in ubers, good in uubers". Does that matter? not really, but I wanted to say it.

Also yes I'm very interested in tomorrow's ubers usage stats
Click to expand...
How do you determine that?
Click to expand...
The best judgment of the council. Think of it like a quickban. It might seem like a heavy-handed use of power, but if something isn't broken, the people will have the chance to just vote it back in.
What happens if you miss?
Click to expand...
Just addressed that. The thought process is that it's preferable to temporarily ban something that's not broken, since you can free it later. Whereas the traditional tiering process would ensure that something that isn't broken likely wouldn't get banned in the first place, but would take much longer.
How much time is spent on gathering up "everything potentially broken" and how many rounds of bans do you do before you start reintroducing new mons?
Click to expand...
Just 1 round. The point is that you ban everything that could potentially be broken so that you don't have to ban more stuff later.
Should we all start talking about what mons we'd want in our kokoloko lists?
Click to expand...
It'd be left up to the discretion of the council.
That gives no concrete time or end in sight.
Click to expand...
Neither does the traditional Smogon tiering system.
Do we need to start this right at the start of a new tiering quarter?
Click to expand...
We could start it whenever. The results should remain the same regardless of the start time
Or do we need a survey first to determine kokoloko is necessary?
Click to expand...
Maybe. This point is something we could discuss further. For now, I want to keep the discourse on whether or not the method is a viable option
How long does each retest take?
Click to expand...
This I'm not too sure, and I'd need to probably go ask someone who was around during the days of XY UU. However, my initial assumption is that each test would functional like a normal suspect test. Anyone else reading should feel free to correct me


We have a year-less than a year of time left as the current generation, if Gamefreak's pattern of releasing games holds up. I'd like to be able to conclude the generation with a meta that I could be proud of, free of regrets. We don't even have a particularly expansive list of potential Kokoloco targets, which is why I think that it wouldn't even take that long. From the survey results, Mewtwo, Landorus, and Sleep are the only ones that particularly stand out. With the drops, that could potentially expand to Iron Bundle as well. I don't see why this method wouldn't work, and I genuinely think that it could be a good way to tier Ubers UU given the state that the meta is in as indicated by the survey results.
 
JustCallMeFish said:
I personally don't see any need for a kokoloco method right now, the tier is in a very good state with nothing specific being unbearable, though if one might disagree, here is a great reason to atleast wait on the idea

With the recent Miraidon ban, the Ubers meta has shifted quite a bit since the last shifts, we are looking at many potential drops, and those could change the tier's dynamic a lot, i sincerely think that these drops could cause major metagame changes and it would be very feasible that the Pokémon some of you now see as broken will appear to you then as "just another threat"
Click to expand...
Much more of a fan waiting for drops and this post says it all.


Finchely said:
That gives no concrete time or end in sight.
Click to expand...
Neither does the traditional Smogon tiering system.
Click to expand...
For me this doesn't really acknowledge what has been done. Are we not going in the right direction in terms of tiering? Aren't surveys helping in showing those directions?

I don't believe the tier is in such alert that it require the use of Kokoloko, and the metagame report is another way of showing that the state of the tier isn't that bad right now. I also want to hear what the majority has to say but I believe it's just another bump the tier has to drive on until things settle down.
 
Poosh_i said:
Alright these usage stats blow can we run stats on tournament games from the month and share those so we can see more accurately what was going on
Click to expand...
Ask and ye shall recieve.
Data is from weeks 4-6 of Swiss, plus the break week and top 64 that have already occurred
magearna.png
???
magearna.png

Code: 
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Magearna           |  259 |  50.78% |  49.42% |
| 2    | Zacian-*           |  201 |  39.41% |  50.75% |
| 3    | Terapagos          |  175 |  34.31% |  53.14% |
| 4    | Arceus-Poison      |  162 |  31.76% |  53.70% |
| 5    | Landorus           |  159 |  31.18% |  53.46% |
| 6    | Giratina           |  151 |  29.61% |  52.32% |
| 7    | Alomomola          |  101 |  19.80% |  44.55% |
| 8    | Mewtwo             |   81 |  15.88% |  49.38% |
| 9    | Ogerpon-Hearthflame |   77 |  15.10% |  50.65% |
| 10   | Chi-Yu             |   72 |  14.12% |  40.28% |
| 11   | Deoxys             |   66 |  12.94% |  54.55% |
| 12   | Roaring Moon       |   62 |  12.16% |  58.06% |
| 13   | Arceus-Electric    |   60 |  11.76% |  63.33% |
| 13   | Arceus-Dark        |   60 |  11.76% |  41.67% |
| 15   | Regieleki          |   57 |  11.18% |  38.60% |
| 16   | Hatterene          |   54 |  10.59% |  46.30% |
| 17   | Palafin            |   53 |  10.39% |  50.94% |
| 18   | Gouging Fire       |   50 |   9.80% |  58.00% |
| 19   | Urshifu            |   49 |   9.61% |  57.14% |
| 20   | Palkia-Origin      |   47 |   9.22% |  55.32% |
| 21   | Moltres            |   46 |   9.02% |  54.35% |
| 22   | Kyurem-White       |   42 |   8.24% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Deoxys-Speed       |   40 |   7.84% |  62.50% |
| 24   | Lugia              |   36 |   7.06% |  52.78% |
| 25   | Blissey            |   33 |   6.47% |  54.55% |
| 26   | Arceus-Grass       |   32 |   6.27% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Arceus-Rock        |   31 |   6.08% |  45.16% |
| 28   | Clodsire           |   30 |   5.88% |  60.00% |
| 28   | Torkoal            |   30 |   5.88% |  43.33% |
| 30   | Annihilape         |   28 |   5.49% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Gholdengo          |   26 |   5.10% |  46.15% |
| 31   | Ursaluna           |   26 |   5.10% |  34.62% |
| 33   | Excadrill          |   24 |   4.71% |  62.50% |
| 33   | Cyclizar           |   24 |   4.71% |  50.00% |
| 35   | Mandibuzz          |   23 |   4.51% |  56.52% |
| 35   | Walking Wake       |   23 |   4.51% |  47.83% |
| 37   | Araquanid          |   22 |   4.31% |  54.55% |
| 38   | Baxcalibur         |   20 |   3.92% |  55.00% |
| 38   | Spectrier          |   20 |   3.92% |  45.00% |
| 38   | Sneasler           |   20 |   3.92% |  35.00% |
| 41   | Great Tusk         |   19 |   3.73% |  36.84% |
| 42   | Tyranitar          |   17 |   3.33% |  58.82% |
| 43   | Solgaleo           |   16 |   3.14% |  43.75% |
| 44   | Galvantula         |   15 |   2.94% |  60.00% |
| 44   | Samurott-Hisui     |   15 |   2.94% |  53.33% |
| 44   | Dialga             |   15 |   2.94% |  53.33% |
| 44   | Corviknight        |   15 |   2.94% |  53.33% |
| 44   | Dondozo            |   15 |   2.94% |  53.33% |
| 44   | Garganacl          |   15 |   2.94% |  33.33% |
| 50   | Arceus-Fighting    |   14 |   2.75% |  35.71% |
| 50   | Orthworm           |   14 |   2.75% |  28.57% |
| 52   | Zamazenta-*        |   13 |   2.55% |  38.46% |
| 52   | Reshiram           |   13 |   2.55% |  38.46% |
| 54   | Archaludon         |   12 |   2.35% |  66.67% |
| 54   | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon |   12 |   2.35% |  66.67% |
| 54   | Slowking-Galar     |   12 |   2.35% |  33.33% |
| 54   | Espathra           |   12 |   2.35% |  25.00% |
| 58   | Toxapex            |   11 |   2.16% |  54.55% |
| 59   | Arceus-Psychic     |   10 |   1.96% |  80.00% |
| 59   | Palkia             |   10 |   1.96% |  50.00% |
| 61   | Dragonite          |    9 |   1.76% |  33.33% |
| 61   | Indeedee           |    9 |   1.76% |  33.33% |
| 61   | Dragapult          |    9 |   1.76% |  22.22% |
| 64   | Enamorus           |    8 |   1.57% |  62.50% |
| 64   | Clefable           |    8 |   1.57% |  50.00% |
| 64   | Quagsire           |    8 |   1.57% |  37.50% |
| 64   | Volcarona          |    8 |   1.57% |  12.50% |
| 68   | Latios             |    7 |   1.37% |  85.71% |
| 68   | Ogerpon-Wellspring |    7 |   1.37% |  57.14% |
| 68   | Ogerpon            |    7 |   1.37% |  57.14% |
| 68   | Gothitelle         |    7 |   1.37% |  42.86% |
| 72   | Iron Valiant       |    6 |   1.18% |  66.67% |
| 72   | Arceus-Bug         |    6 |   1.18% |  50.00% |
| 72   | Dialga-Origin      |    6 |   1.18% |  16.67% |
| 72   | Azumarill          |    6 |   1.18% |  16.67% |
| 76   | Pelipper           |    5 |   0.98% |  40.00% |
| 76   | Cresselia          |    5 |   0.98% |  20.00% |
| 78   | Iron Boulder       |    4 |   0.78% |  50.00% |
| 78   | Bellibolt          |    4 |   0.78% |  50.00% |
| 78   | Barraskewda        |    4 |   0.78% |  50.00% |
| 78   | Tornadus-Therian   |    4 |   0.78% |  50.00% |
| 78   | Darkrai            |    4 |   0.78% |  25.00% |
| 78   | Lilligant-Hisui    |    4 |   0.78% |  25.00% |
| 78   | Ninetales-Alola    |    4 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Iron Moth          |    3 |   0.59% | 100.00% |
| 85   | Slowking           |    3 |   0.59% |  66.67% |
| 85   | Skarmory           |    3 |   0.59% |  66.67% |
| 85   | Diancie            |    3 |   0.59% |  33.33% |
| 85   | Necrozma           |    3 |   0.59% |  33.33% |
| 85   | Rillaboom          |    3 |   0.59% |  33.33% |
| 85   | Houndstone         |    3 |   0.59% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Amoonguss          |    3 |   0.59% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Bronzong           |    3 |   0.59% |   0.00% |
| 94   | Primarina          |    2 |   0.39% | 100.00% |
| 94   | Smeargle           |    2 |   0.39% | 100.00% |
| 94   | Weavile            |    2 |   0.39% |  50.00% |
| 94   | Gligar             |    2 |   0.39% |  50.00% |
| 94   | Mew                |    2 |   0.39% |  50.00% |
| 94   | Raging Bolt        |    2 |   0.39% |  50.00% |
| 94   | Ditto              |    2 |   0.39% |  50.00% |
| 94   | Donphan            |    2 |   0.39% |   0.00% |
| 94   | Garchomp           |    2 |   0.39% |   0.00% |
| 94   | Kommo-o            |    2 |   0.39% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Enamorus-Therian   |    1 |   0.20% | 100.00% |
| 104  | Tornadus           |    1 |   0.20% | 100.00% |
| 104  | Zoroark-Hisui      |    1 |   0.20% | 100.00% |
| 104  | Deoxys-Defense     |    1 |   0.20% | 100.00% |
| 104  | Polteageist        |    1 |   0.20% | 100.00% |
| 104  | Morgrem            |    1 |   0.20% | 100.00% |
| 104  | Arceus-Ice         |    1 |   0.20% | 100.00% |
| 104  | Maushold-Four      |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Sableye            |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Manaphy            |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Pecharunt          |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Gyarados           |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Gastrodon          |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Lokix              |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Dolliv             |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Spidops            |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Cinderace          |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
 
KineSquared said:
Ask and ye shall recieve.
Data is from weeks 4-6 of Swiss, plus the break week and top 64 that have already occurred
magearna.png
???
magearna.png

Code: 
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Magearna           |  259 |  50.78% |  49.42% |
| 2    | Zacian-*           |  201 |  39.41% |  50.75% |
| 3    | Terapagos          |  175 |  34.31% |  53.14% |
| 4    | Arceus-Poison      |  162 |  31.76% |  53.70% |
| 5    | Landorus           |  159 |  31.18% |  53.46% |
| 6    | Giratina           |  151 |  29.61% |  52.32% |
| 7    | Alomomola          |  101 |  19.80% |  44.55% |
| 8    | Mewtwo             |   81 |  15.88% |  49.38% |
| 9    | Ogerpon-Hearthflame |   77 |  15.10% |  50.65% |
| 10   | Chi-Yu             |   72 |  14.12% |  40.28% |
| 11   | Deoxys             |   66 |  12.94% |  54.55% |
| 12   | Roaring Moon       |   62 |  12.16% |  58.06% |
| 13   | Arceus-Electric    |   60 |  11.76% |  63.33% |
| 13   | Arceus-Dark        |   60 |  11.76% |  41.67% |
| 15   | Regieleki          |   57 |  11.18% |  38.60% |
| 16   | Hatterene          |   54 |  10.59% |  46.30% |
| 17   | Palafin            |   53 |  10.39% |  50.94% |
| 18   | Gouging Fire       |   50 |   9.80% |  58.00% |
| 19   | Urshifu            |   49 |   9.61% |  57.14% |
| 20   | Palkia-Origin      |   47 |   9.22% |  55.32% |
| 21   | Moltres            |   46 |   9.02% |  54.35% |
| 22   | Kyurem-White       |   42 |   8.24% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Deoxys-Speed       |   40 |   7.84% |  62.50% |
| 24   | Lugia              |   36 |   7.06% |  52.78% |
| 25   | Blissey            |   33 |   6.47% |  54.55% |
| 26   | Arceus-Grass       |   32 |   6.27% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Arceus-Rock        |   31 |   6.08% |  45.16% |
| 28   | Clodsire           |   30 |   5.88% |  60.00% |
| 28   | Torkoal            |   30 |   5.88% |  43.33% |
| 30   | Annihilape         |   28 |   5.49% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Gholdengo          |   26 |   5.10% |  46.15% |
| 31   | Ursaluna           |   26 |   5.10% |  34.62% |
| 33   | Excadrill          |   24 |   4.71% |  62.50% |
| 33   | Cyclizar           |   24 |   4.71% |  50.00% |
| 35   | Mandibuzz          |   23 |   4.51% |  56.52% |
| 35   | Walking Wake       |   23 |   4.51% |  47.83% |
| 37   | Araquanid          |   22 |   4.31% |  54.55% |
| 38   | Baxcalibur         |   20 |   3.92% |  55.00% |
| 38   | Spectrier          |   20 |   3.92% |  45.00% |
| 38   | Sneasler           |   20 |   3.92% |  35.00% |
| 41   | Great Tusk         |   19 |   3.73% |  36.84% |
| 42   | Tyranitar          |   17 |   3.33% |  58.82% |
| 43   | Solgaleo           |   16 |   3.14% |  43.75% |
| 44   | Galvantula         |   15 |   2.94% |  60.00% |
| 44   | Samurott-Hisui     |   15 |   2.94% |  53.33% |
| 44   | Dialga             |   15 |   2.94% |  53.33% |
| 44   | Corviknight        |   15 |   2.94% |  53.33% |
| 44   | Dondozo            |   15 |   2.94% |  53.33% |
| 44   | Garganacl          |   15 |   2.94% |  33.33% |
| 50   | Arceus-Fighting    |   14 |   2.75% |  35.71% |
| 50   | Orthworm           |   14 |   2.75% |  28.57% |
| 52   | Zamazenta-*        |   13 |   2.55% |  38.46% |
| 52   | Reshiram           |   13 |   2.55% |  38.46% |
| 54   | Archaludon         |   12 |   2.35% |  66.67% |
| 54   | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon |   12 |   2.35% |  66.67% |
| 54   | Slowking-Galar     |   12 |   2.35% |  33.33% |
| 54   | Espathra           |   12 |   2.35% |  25.00% |
| 58   | Toxapex            |   11 |   2.16% |  54.55% |
| 59   | Arceus-Psychic     |   10 |   1.96% |  80.00% |
| 59   | Palkia             |   10 |   1.96% |  50.00% |
| 61   | Dragonite          |    9 |   1.76% |  33.33% |
| 61   | Indeedee           |    9 |   1.76% |  33.33% |
| 61   | Dragapult          |    9 |   1.76% |  22.22% |
| 64   | Enamorus           |    8 |   1.57% |  62.50% |
| 64   | Clefable           |    8 |   1.57% |  50.00% |
| 64   | Quagsire           |    8 |   1.57% |  37.50% |
| 64   | Volcarona          |    8 |   1.57% |  12.50% |
| 68   | Latios             |    7 |   1.37% |  85.71% |
| 68   | Ogerpon-Wellspring |    7 |   1.37% |  57.14% |
| 68   | Ogerpon            |    7 |   1.37% |  57.14% |
| 68   | Gothitelle         |    7 |   1.37% |  42.86% |
| 72   | Iron Valiant       |    6 |   1.18% |  66.67% |
| 72   | Arceus-Bug         |    6 |   1.18% |  50.00% |
| 72   | Dialga-Origin      |    6 |   1.18% |  16.67% |
| 72   | Azumarill          |    6 |   1.18% |  16.67% |
| 76   | Pelipper           |    5 |   0.98% |  40.00% |
| 76   | Cresselia          |    5 |   0.98% |  20.00% |
| 78   | Iron Boulder       |    4 |   0.78% |  50.00% |
| 78   | Bellibolt          |    4 |   0.78% |  50.00% |
| 78   | Barraskewda        |    4 |   0.78% |  50.00% |
| 78   | Tornadus-Therian   |    4 |   0.78% |  50.00% |
| 78   | Darkrai            |    4 |   0.78% |  25.00% |
| 78   | Lilligant-Hisui    |    4 |   0.78% |  25.00% |
| 78   | Ninetales-Alola    |    4 |   0.78% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Iron Moth          |    3 |   0.59% | 100.00% |
| 85   | Slowking           |    3 |   0.59% |  66.67% |
| 85   | Skarmory           |    3 |   0.59% |  66.67% |
| 85   | Diancie            |    3 |   0.59% |  33.33% |
| 85   | Necrozma           |    3 |   0.59% |  33.33% |
| 85   | Rillaboom          |    3 |   0.59% |  33.33% |
| 85   | Houndstone         |    3 |   0.59% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Amoonguss          |    3 |   0.59% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Bronzong           |    3 |   0.59% |   0.00% |
| 94   | Primarina          |    2 |   0.39% | 100.00% |
| 94   | Smeargle           |    2 |   0.39% | 100.00% |
| 94   | Weavile            |    2 |   0.39% |  50.00% |
| 94   | Gligar             |    2 |   0.39% |  50.00% |
| 94   | Mew                |    2 |   0.39% |  50.00% |
| 94   | Raging Bolt        |    2 |   0.39% |  50.00% |
| 94   | Ditto              |    2 |   0.39% |  50.00% |
| 94   | Donphan            |    2 |   0.39% |   0.00% |
| 94   | Garchomp           |    2 |   0.39% |   0.00% |
| 94   | Kommo-o            |    2 |   0.39% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Enamorus-Therian   |    1 |   0.20% | 100.00% |
| 104  | Tornadus           |    1 |   0.20% | 100.00% |
| 104  | Zoroark-Hisui      |    1 |   0.20% | 100.00% |
| 104  | Deoxys-Defense     |    1 |   0.20% | 100.00% |
| 104  | Polteageist        |    1 |   0.20% | 100.00% |
| 104  | Morgrem            |    1 |   0.20% | 100.00% |
| 104  | Arceus-Ice         |    1 |   0.20% | 100.00% |
| 104  | Maushold-Four      |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Sableye            |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Manaphy            |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Pecharunt          |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Gyarados           |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Gastrodon          |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Lokix              |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Dolliv             |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Spidops            |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Cinderace          |    1 |   0.20% |   0.00% |
Click to expand...
erm... what about UMPL...
(ty tho!)
 
Finchely said:
erm... what about UMPL...
(ty tho!)
Click to expand...
UMPL has its own stats which you can check yourself here

Tuthur

Tournament Post in thread 'UMPL IV - Usage Statistics'

Week 7

:primarina:1v1:primarina:
Code: 
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Primarina          |   11 |  16.18% |  45.45% |
| 2    | Iron Crown         |    9 |  13.24% |  55.56% |
| 3    | Iron Valiant       |    8 |  11.76% |  37.50%...
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