Metagame SV Ubers UU Metagame Discussion (Clod/Ditto dropped, Lando-T/Pao rose!)

[BigFatMantis]

To ban a move that has made literally only one Pokemon overpowered, with every single Pokemon having access to the move goes against smogon tiering policy. Houndstone was banned from OU over Last Respects because it's the only Pokémon that was broken with Last Respects at the time. This is despite the fact it was the only mon to use it. Banning Tera Blast is not only the wrong move for the tier, its one that we can't take within the framework of smogon tiering regardless.

Though the rest of your post is a fine opinion to have, this part is actually incorrect. There is no real "policy" with regard to Tera Blast because it is such a unique move to this generation and attached to the generational mechanic. And, in fact, there are many conversations/discussions amongst OU tiering in the past alluding to a possible ban of the move, meaning it is very possible to ban it if deemed the correct course of action for the metagame. Also, stating that Houndstone was banned "because it's the only Pokemon that was broken with Last Respects" is a very fierce mischaracterization of what actually happened. Everyone knows that the only reason it was banned over Last Respects is because it was the only mon that could use it, not because it was the only mon that was "broken" with it - that was just a consequence of the situation. Further, everyone also knew that, as soon as Basculegion was introduced, it would be unbanned and instead Last Respects would be banned. And I don't even really think that situation is relevant to Tera Blast because again of how unique of a mechanic Tera Blast is and what it can do.

Banning Tera Blast is the correct thing to do for the metagame, it will open up building options tremendously and not force you into totally random guesswork with regard to mons that are already at the very top of the metagame in re Chien Pao/Zacian/NDW. Not to mention the random CM Tera Fairy Blast Giratinas out there etc.

 

[Finchely]

I want to bring up the point that something doesn't have to be necessarily broken for it to be banned.

There is precedent where things have been banned not because they were clearly far too much for a meta to handle, but because they created unnecessary centralization and were overall considered unhealthy. Take the example of Zamazenta-C in SS OU. In practice, Zama-C would have mixed results either performing very well or sort of thudding into its checks. It was strong but not incredibly difficult to prepare for as it suffered greatly from chip damage vulnurability and 4mss. But if that was the end of the story, it might've still been allowed into SS OU. However, Zama-C was kept banned because it enforced dynamics in the tier that many found unpleasant.

We are not OU and the circumstances of the Zama suspect are wildly different than a theoretical TB suspect/ban. But the sentiment can still be applied here. Just because something is not outright broken doesn't give it a pass from potential action.

the loss of Tera Blast as an option means that Zacian loses a ton of versatility. You wouldn't be able to mix and match coverage to fix the holes in your team. A Tera blast ban hurts one of the tier's best Pokémon for no reason.

Kind of? Zacian already has Fire Fang which still hits Magearna hard. The only significant thing Zacian loses out on in a TB ban is having Faerie/Ground coverage. However, almost every good team has Landorus on it and the tier is in no shortage of ground coverage. TB ground is already niche, and typically used on Sub or Trailblaze sets. However there's something to be said about TB enabling a Zacian to run away with a game because you played incorrectly around an option you couldn't possibly know for sure that it had. Furthermore, Zacian also has other unexplored coverage options such as Ice Fang which 2hkos lando at +0 and ohkos at +2. Losing TB would in my opinion make Zacian healthier, as it's not losing Fire coverage and lessens its ability to cheese wins.

Though Tera makes revenging pao more difficult for some checks like Zacian. It makes it a ton easier for others like scarf Landorus-T, Palafin, and Deoxys, as they either no longer need Tera, or rather in Deoxys's case, removing Pao's immunity to Psycho Boost.
-
Even without Tera Blast, +2 Tera fighting sacred sword cleanly OHKOs Mag, so it's not exactly like Tera SD becomes useless.

When it comes to Pao, this is the best set it has rn:
Chien-Pao @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Sucker Punch
- Tera Blast
- Swords Dance
You hit everything you need. Crash forces out Lando, Sucker still forces out M2, and TB fire rocks Mag. TB fire also means that the most popular Zacian set can't OHKO you. Timid scarf fish can't ohko you with dpulse and is a 50% chance to get OHKOd by sucker after rocks. Scarf Lando-T isn't a proper check cause it dies to +1 Sucker after 2 rounds of rocks. Palafin-Hero also dies to +2 sucker after 2 rounds of rocks. Deoxys is not a hard check bc it has to mind game with espeed vs psycho boost on the sucker mind game. This set is good and I think ppl are sleeping on it too much. The breaking point though is that Tera Blast allows the set to not only limit offensive counterplay but also break past the one pokemon that consistently walls it otherwise. ALSO +2 TERA FIGHTING SACRED SWORD IS NOT AN OHKO ON MAG. Mag comes in on Pao clicking SD, and mag fucks you either way with dkiss or fleur cannon. Furthermore, Tera Fighting leaves Pao vulnurable to Zacian which is a crucial piece of counterplay against Pao. So it really is Tera Blast that makes a world of difference between an overbearing Pao set and a decent one.

Truthfully, I think that a Tera Blast ban is the worse path solely because NDW is the only pokemon to ever be banned over Tera Blast, and it's unbanned now.

On the contrary, I think that NDW's history of having been banned for Tera Blast doesn't necessarily only aid the anti-ban argument. As I've mentioned earlier in the post, we don't have to strictly base our tiering decisions on whether or not something is broken. Tera Blast is a very strong option that allows the previously mentioned pokemon to pull off sweeps with much better ease. NDW's previous ban is a testament to its ability to utilize Tera Blast, but also a testament to just how far Tera Blast can push a pokemon over the edge. Without Tera Blast, NDW doesn't have an easy way to hit Arceus-Dark. Tera Ground Earth Power does a lot of damage, but it doesn't allow NDW to resist Dark type moves, and doesn't reduce its weakness to Chien-Pao. Without Tera Blast, NDW still can use Tera Fairy to retain the same defensive profile, or Tera Ground to get similar levels of damage, but never both at the same time which Tera Blast Fairy enables. This, in my opinion, goes to show that it's not that NDW itself is problematic, but rather that the move is what makes NDW problematic.

 

[Finchely]

ppl were talking in maincord today and I wanted to sort of bring the convo to forums

The tier is centralized af we all know this. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, but I do have some thoughts to share about it. The main three that are talked about when it comes to discussions about centralization are Magearna, Arceus, and Landorus-Therian (unsuprisingly they are also the top 3 mons from July's usage stats)


I don't think Magearna is unhealthy for the tier. Despite its 70% usage rate (which imo should be something like 90%), it holds the tier together and provides a soft check to so many of the crazy strong pokemon running around. It also severely punishes bad plays by providing invaluable support in spikes, twave, encore, and pivoting support. And all the while, it has the ability to pack fleur cannon in the back to avoid remaining passive. However, its lack of reliable recovery leaves it susceptible to being brought down into range of your sweepers. Taking all of this into account, Magearna is a bulky pokemon that allows teams the flexibility to run what they want and it demands strategic play from the opponent to wear it down over the course of a game. Despite how centralizing Magearna is, I believe that it is a healthy mon because of the above mentioned traits.


In the month of July, Arceus had a staggering collective usage rate of 77%. However, I think that, similarly to Magearna, Arceus too is not a problem for the tier. Arceus' incredible versatility alongside its phenomenal bulk allows it to serve almost any kind of role on a team. Arceus in my opinion promotes team diversity rather than limits it.


Lando-T is where I begin to see somewhat of a problem. Lando-T is in my opinion, an "honorary" auto-include of sorts. I don't think its actually mandatory like Magearna and Arceus are, but it's still incredibly difficult to build balance/offense without ending up slotting in a Lando-t. Like Magearna, Lando-t is a crazy good enabler of other things. The standard Lando-t set is eq rocks taunt uturn, and this really is one crazy good set because it covers just so many boxes you need in teambuilding. But my biggest issue with it is how it perpetuates its own usage. For starters, Lando-t is your Lando-t switch in. Because we're so strapped for ground resists, Lando-t inflates its own usage by motivating people to run Lando-t just so that they have a switch-in to the opponent's Lando-t. But it goes further than that, because Lando-t is in my opinion the best setter of stealth rock. Stealth rock is arguably one of if not the best moves in the game. In a tier where hazard removal is infamously difficult, hazards can stay on the field for a very long time. Now rocks aren't really that big an issue, in fact they're a crucial hazard to set to allow your physical offense to sweep because rocks keep Lando-t in check oh wait-. Yea so Lando-t is not only your Lando-t switch in but its also how you beat Lando-t. But wait, there's more! Rocks are so important because it's how you put pressure on Lando-t, but that also means that you really don't want rocks going up on your side of the field so that your Lando-t doesn't die first. Hazard removal exists, but its hard to pull off successfully and so you really want another measure to prevent rocks from even going up in the first place. Yea you oftentimes really want a taunter on your team now what in this tier gets taunt oh wait-. Yes so Lando-t is your Lando-t switch in, it's your Lando-t killer (with stealth rocks), and it's your method of blocking the opposing Lando-t from setting rocks. Taunting the opposing Lando-t before they can click taunt or rocks is so important that Lando-ts have been massively speed creeping each other because of how powerful setting stealth rock is. Oh and Lando-t rocky helmet chip also helps you take down opposing landos if they uturn on you so there's that too lol. Lando-t is near mandatory because of how near mandatory Lando-t is. It's an endless feedback loop with no way out unless we get some crazy new drop from Ubers like say Giratina-O or something idfk. Lando-T is an incredibly centralizing force in Ubers UU, but where I think it deviates from Magearna and Arceus is how centralizing it makes gameplay around itself. Sure Mag dittos happen more than occaisonally, and Arceus is sometimes used to check itself, but Magearna is not its primary answer to itself, and really neither is Arceus in most cases. It's also not even really proper to equate Arceus checking itself to how lando does so, because it's basically never the same arceus forme using the same set to check itself (unless it's a last ditch effort). Lando-t's dynamic with the tier and itself is unique in how it enforces its own placement in the tier, which is why I think it's the most unhealthy of the centralizing forces in the tier.

I'm not saying that we go suspect Lando-t right now, I just wanted to share my views on what I view as part of the problem with centralization because I've heard a lot of anti-mag and anti-arceus sentiment which I don't agree with.

 

[Finchely]

Lando-I might also have similar problems in a lando-t-less metagame but no intimidate means you're not as splashable and can't check stuff like zacian asw. But idrk theorymonning isn't my strong suit.

 

[IcyScream]

Finchely u posted the same thing twice #453 #454

 

[Finchely]

Oops must’ve lagged or something >w<

 

[Fc]

Apparently tera blast has become a big thing now so I wanted to give my thoughts on it. tl;dr is I think tera blast is no where close to broken, and almost all mons are worse overall when using it bar a few, only one of which can be considered broken. My votes on the survey were exactly the same as last time, I'm not sure why there was another survey within less than a month of the last one with no tier changes, there's no difference in metagame or threats aside from minor vr shifts, the only one of which is the slight rise of dragceus which I believe I gave a 1. Since they were the same I put tera blast at a 2 again, and it was more just a formal 2 like it's slightly above the shit I consider not even that good that gets put on the survey like zacian and dragceus. I'll go through the main users of tera blast later, but I'll explain why I think fundamentally it's not broken and probably never will be, and if it ever gets to that point I think tera should be the test not tera blast.

The biggest thing about tera blast is that it's a commitment. You're essentially saying you'll near always dedicate your tera to this pokemon if you want it to hit anything, and you're using a moveslot to do so. I don't think this is an issue on something like regieleki who I consider the second best tera blast user behind ndw, because it literally has no other moves anyway and wants to electric move as much as possible. It being able to hit grounds at the cost of becoming an insanely frail ice type is a tradeoff, and not one that's too insane where you can't find a response to it. Similarly, stuff like Zacian and pao which people have talked about both have to give up a moveslot for a move that's naturally a special attack and also have to tera if you want to break one check. This means that you both don't have another coverage option and have revealed your tera early, all in the hopes the opponent doesn't just pivot out. But even if you get the call right the game isn't over, most teams should have more than a single mon that can pivot into or threaten these mons since they're still top tier. Using tera like this is also quite a big thing in game, because it makes your game much more linear. I think if you know something is tera blasting or even if you don't yet it does, you can still play around it because at the cost of one mon you get your tera in the back and your opponent has to respond to you right away while probably becoming a type with exploitable weaknesses, since the good defensive types like poison steel etc are bad tera blasts.

The only pokemon I think is too much with tera blast is ndw, but I feel like that's just because of what kind of mon it is. NDW is already comparable to Lunala which is one of the most broken mons ever, all it lacks is that dark coverage. It's stronger and has almost as much bulk with a very good ability for something that likes becoming a fairy type. Without tera blast it just gains like a single reliable check until they start using dd sets, something it can do just doesn't have to rn. I think banning ndw opens up a lot in the meta and also makes nothing else broken with tera blast.

Zacian and pao kinda fall into the same bucket as users of it, strong physical mons that have to sd before clicking it to get the most out of it. They both target magearna, with zacian using ground usually to also hit poisonceus. I think the main issue with this is that mag isn't even that good a zacian check, and pao losing out on one of its stabs is really bad usually. Lando, alo, poisonceus, and tera are the best defensive responses to zac usually while it's not too hard to revenge kill after some chip, and it becomes insanely less threatening after being forced out and losing intrepid. If it uses tera fire to avoid burns while still hitting mag it loses even harder to these things, and ground blast already has the issue of you having to tera to hit a lot of pokemon and also just losing another coverage option, like if you go wild charge last you take recoil and still don't kill alo or some bulky neutral stuff like ndw, crunch can't hit waters but can hit ndw and niche balloon ghold, cc means you really struggle in tera fairy guessing games, etc. I think the threat of zacian is much less in game than on paper, it's not hard to play around especially once revealed. Pao struggles the same but arguably harder imo, because the default set already is strapped for moves. If you go sd stabs prio that's all your moveslots, and if you drop prio for tera blast you're super bad into anything fast or just offense teams, and losing a stab is also really bad. No crunch is hard walled by alo, pex if it's fire tera blast, and struggles really hard into anything tera water like lando, while no icicle crash is super weak with ice shard to the point where you can't even kill something like dragceus after a swords dance.

Overall I think a tera blast ban would be a pretty big mistake, and it would remove the viability of regieleki and techs on pokemon like zac and pao that aren't too broken in exchange for preserving ndw, and would also kill some lower tier creativity options like stellar blast enam and other cool unexplored mons. If tera blast really was an issue I feel like that falls onto tera more than anything, and would also need a lot more mons using it as their main set while being considered broken because of it. The only mon I think is broken is ndw and I don't think the others even come close to needing a suspect no matter what sets you're looking at, so I don't think it's a widespread enough issue to target the move which should be a really high barrier of entry for a test since move bans are very rare. As is I think this tier has a really good power level to make tera not too big an issue since nothing is too strong but nothing is too frail either. Would like to see it stay.

 

[vesp]

I want to bring up the point that something doesn't have to be necessarily broken for it to be banned.

There is precedent where things have been banned not because they were clearly far too much for a meta to handle, but because they created unnecessary centralization and were overall considered unhealthy. Take the example of Zamazenta-C in SS OU. In practice, Zama-C would have mixed results either performing very well or sort of thudding into its checks. It was strong but not incredibly difficult to prepare for as it suffered greatly from chip damage vulnurability and 4mss. But if that was the end of the story, it might've still been allowed into SS OU. However, Zama-C was kept banned because it enforced dynamics in the tier that many found unpleasant.

We are not OU and the circumstances of the Zama suspect are wildly different than a theoretical TB suspect/ban. But the sentiment can still be applied here. Just because something is not outright broken doesn't give it a pass from potential action.

This is a pretty bad example. OU being different than UUbers isn't the only reason why though. Tera Blast is not a pokemon, it is a move. Banning moves is fundamentally different. This of course, js on top of the fact that this was a two-week trial of the Pokémon, which means we don't actually know if it was broken. This suspect was for a different tier, with different tiering policy, suspecting a pokemon instead of a move, and it wasn't even a ban suspect.

Kind of? Zacian already has Fire Fang

fire fang. lmfao.

Chien-Pao @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Sucker Punch
- Tera Blast
- Swords Dance
You hit everything you need. Crash forces out Lando, Sucker still forces out M2, and TB fire rocks Mag. TB fire also means that the most popular Zacian set can't OHKO you. Timid scarf fish can't ohko you with dpulse and is a 50% chance to get OHKOd by sucker after rocks. Scarf Lando-T isn't a proper check cause it dies to +1 Sucker after 2 rounds of rocks. Palafin-Hero also dies to +2 sucker after 2 rounds of rocks. Deoxys is not a hard check bc it has to mind game with espeed vs psycho boost on the sucker mind game. This set is good and I think ppl are sleeping on it too much. The breaking point though is that Tera Blast allows the set to not only limit offensive counterplay but also break past the one pokemon that consistently walls it otherwise

I disagree that tera blast Chien-Pao is broken, this set requires heavy investment in the builder, and can be revenge-killed by Zacian after some minor chip. More than that though, TB fire Chien-Pao has a difficult time breaking through walls like Alomomola and Toxapex, since neither are particularly threatened by its Sucker Punch, Mola scalds it until it dies, and Toxapex simply hazes away the boosts. +2 Chien-Pao can't one-shot bulky arc formes either, which leaves it vulnurable to getting smacked by judgment for a sizeable chunk. Though I typically dislike the argument that "x isn't broken because you can just tera back" this is the exception, as Chien-Pao needs to tera to get past its checks, using your tera to beat Pao is reasonable imo. So you can simply just terastalize a Pokemon like Giratina, TB ground Zacian, or Landorus-T to stop the sweep in its tracks.

Mag comes in on Pao clicking SD, and mag fucks you either way with dkiss or fleur cannon. Furthermore, Tera Fighting leaves Pao vulnurable to Zacian which is a crucial piece of counterplay against Pao. So it really is Tera Blast that makes a world of difference between an overbearing Pao set and a decent one. Using Tera Blast on pao NEEDS to have a big payoff, because you're essentially denying the rest of your team the ability to use Tera, or your Chien set is garbage.

See I don't understand why you would see a Chien-Pao not take hazards and switch hard into Magearna, knowing full well that Boots Chien often runs Tera Blast to hit Magearna, just hit the thing and kill it. An unboosted Pao is not super strong after all, it can't hit arceus formes for much damage at all, and many offensive threats like Zacian and Chi-yu easily deny the SD. Unless you do the exact thing you're talking about where you hard switch into Magearna knowing full well you're probably about to get tera blasted.

Tera Blast is a very strong option that allows the previously mentioned pokemon to pull off sweeps with much better ease. NDW's previous ban is a testament to its ability to utilize Tera Blast, but also a testament to just how far Tera Blast can push a pokemon over the edge.

See the thing is, NDW is the only pokemon we've ever have be overpowered with tera blast. Though it's a great example of what Tera Blast can do, it is an extreme example of it, the only one of its kind.

This, in my opinion, goes to show that it's not that NDW itself is problematic, but rather that the move is what makes NDW problematic.

See the thing is, when every fucking Pokémon in the entire game learns a move and only NDW is broken with it, I think this just wrong. Tera Blast has huge downsides, it basically forces the user to reserve their tera or have a dead slot on their team along with eating a moveslot. Saying that it's not as good without Tera Blast doesn't make banning TB the correct move, TB isn't a broken move on 99% of Pokémon, but it's fantastic on NDW because it let's it break through its few checks in Darkceus and Terapagos.

And, in fact, there are many conversations/discussions amongst OU tiering in the past alluding to a possible ban of the move,

An important difference between this tier and OU is that OU is considering a TB suspect because it's gotten plenty of mons banned in the past, with Eleki and Volcarona coming to mind immediately. We on the other hand, don't have a single banned mon that was broken because of Tera Blast. The only one we had in the past, is currently legal in the tier.

Banning Tera Blast is the correct thing to do for the metagame, it will open up building options tremendously and not force you into totally random guesswork with regard to mons that are already at the very top of the metagame in re Chien Pao/Zacian/NDW. Not to mention the random CM Tera Fairy Blast Giratinas out there etc.

For Chien-Pao and Zacian, there is no guesswork. Zacian is almost always running tb, and when it isn't, it's checks don't change. Switch in a Landorus-T, chip it, revenge it. Chien-Pao reveals if it's TB as soon as it comes in, as if it's not choiced it's almost certainly SD tb. To beat NDW, it's the same situation, go into darkceus/pagos, and if it terastalizes, Tera back and win the 1v1.

Banning Tera Blast nerfs Chien-Pao, Zacian, and Regieleki severely for the purpose of keeping a broken Pokémon that was already banned in the past, which is broken again with the same set that got it banned the first time. Which is in my opinion, the incorrect way to go about things. I think that I would much rather have a metagame with Tera Blast on a couple strong but fair abusers, than nerf said users into the ground to keep NDW in the tier. NDW isn't enough benefit to justify these nerfs either. It checks a handful of mons like Palkia-Origin and Mewtwo, but for the most part, it isn't that hard to replace. We know that for a fact actually, because NDW was already banned in the past and most of our current special attackers were in the metagame at the time(basically all of them except pagos) and we didn't see any special attackers rise on the VR after its ban. Though the metagame has definitely developed, since then, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect similar results following an NDW ban. Perhaps Mewtwo will get better, but many people already think it's overpowered anyways(though I am not one of them), and plenty of Mewtwo's can get past NDW as it stands.

 

[BigFatMantis]

An important difference between this tier and OU is that OU is considering a TB suspect because it's gotten plenty of mons banned in the past, with Eleki and Volcarona coming to mind immediately. We on the other hand, don't have a single banned mon that was broken because of Tera Blast. The only one we had in the past, is currently legal in the tier.

Well, this is just flat not true. And even if it was, there are obviously going to be many more bans in OU than in Ubers UU given the nature of how that metagame is tiered. Eleki was banned extremely quickly (and is the only mon probably banned solely because of Tera Blast). Volcarona is probably dumb with or without Tera Blast though it does push it over the edge. That's two mons (not really "plenty" by any metric). And the other big difference between OU and Ubers UU is that in Ubers UU all of the most dangerous threats just get immediately more oppressive with Tera Blast (Zacian, NDW, Chien Pao). But there's no need to compare to OU anyways - the only reason I brought this (which you took one line out of context to rebut) was because you had made an incorrect assertion on how OU had been tiered and I wanted to correct it.

For Chien-Pao and Zacian, there is no guesswork. Zacian is almost always running tb, and when it isn't, it's checks don't change. Switch in a Landorus-T, chip it, revenge it. Chien-Pao reveals if it's TB as soon as it comes in, as if it's not choiced it's almost certainly SD tb.

Yes, there is guesswork. Not in whether or not Zacian has Tera Blast - moreso about, is it Tera Blast Ground or Fire or some random one, and is it even going to use it so that you can TWave with Mag or switch out or Encore. That's like a 5 layered guesswork puzzle in just one interaction. You are certainly free to argue that, despite this, it's not pushing it over the edge, but to say there is no guesswork is incorrect. Chien Pao also does not reveal TB as soon as it comes in - it can be choiced TBlast (the set does exist), or it can be SD TBlast, and you can't tell if it's choiced until it moves anyways as it could be Boots or Life Orb, and giving it a free SD as you switch to Mag could be game over potentially. Again, if you don't think this is gamebreaking, that's fine, but you can't say there is "no guesswork" involved.

Banning Tera Blast nerfs Chien-Pao, Zacian, and Regieleki severely for the purpose of keeping a broken Pokémon that was already banned in the past, which is broken again with the same set that got it banned the first time.

I don't really care about NDW and my stance on Tera Blast has nothing to do with whether it goes or stays - I thought Tera Blast was dumb even while NDW was banned and it's just even more dumb now. If you have any other questions on my posts here feel free to message me instead of constantly going back and forth in this thread.

 

[SwordIsBored]

Throughout this discourse and talk about the Tera Blast suspect, everyone has been thinking one thing. What does former council member SwordIsBored think about this conundrum? Fear not, for here I am to inform you about the correct opinion.

I think it's important to first say that this whole Tera Suspect mainly stems from Necrozma-Dawn-Wings and the fact that it abuses Tera Blast Fairy in particular, though it can occasionally run Ground. In my opinion, there was no reason for this Pokemon to be unbanned in the first place and mainly gets its wins through cheese and barely adds anything to the tier which is the argument defenders will use to instead ban Tera Blast. I'll get into why Tera Blast makes for a good tier later, especially with the Pokemon at the top right now but banning such a move is probably one of the least professional things you could do. From an outsider looking in, banning Tera Blast is stupid and I'm not saying to value the opinions of people who don't play the tier but in this scenario it is different because banning Tera Blast IS STUPID.

When talking about Tera Blast, people often point to Zacian and Chien-Pao and mention how they use primarily Tera Blast Ground to break past Magearna. When using Terastalization, I see abusing Tera Blast as no different than Pokemon like Palafin using Tera Water to enhance its own STAB and Arceus-Dark using Tera Fairy for defensive properties. It is a one time resource that can be used in three different ways that don't often overlap (except Necrozma-Dawn-Wings which is just further proof as to why it should be banned).

What I'm trying to say here is that Tera Blast shouldn't be thought of as its own individual move but just another way to use Terastalization for a different purpose, allowing a variety of Pokemon to use this mechanic. Aside from this though, I believe this move improves the metagame and this is best seen through Zacian and Chien-Pao themselves. Firstly, Tera Blast from these two are extremely telegraphed and are something that any opponent experienced with the tier should be able to see coming and prevent particularly Magearna from becoming out of hand.

Furthermore, Tera Ground being used so much on these Pokemon is no coincidence as we are lacking in good Ground-types in the tier besides Landorus-I and Landorus-Therian, the latter being commonly used defensively and Landorus-I having a slow speed tier compared to other offensive Pokemon in the tier. Zacian and Chien-Pao can be used as substitute Ground-types almost and have incredible speed stats of 138 and 135 respectively and I fear without these, Steel-types and other Pokemon punished by Ground-type attacks will be pushed to the forefront of the metagame.

In conclusion, I feel like we could be doing a lot better with balancing our metagame, with ideas such as banning Necrozma-Dawn-Wings. At the end of the day, I highly doubt Tera Blast will be banned and it's important to reemphasise that this decision looks potentially worse than banning Tera as a whole because of how unseen the concept is with no warranted reason behind it. It's important to remember that it's difficult to use all of Tera's functions at once - unless you're Necrozma-Dawn-Wings - and the positive impact it brings to the tier more than anything else.

Remember, if you lose the game to a singular Tera you probably could've played that match better.

Ily Ubers UU <3

 

[IcyScream]

When talking about Tera Blast, people often point to Zacian and Chien-Pao and mention how they use primarily Tera Blast Ground to break past Magearna.

Furthermore, Tera Ground being used so much on these Pokemon is no coincidence as we are lacking in good Ground-types in the tier besides Landorus-I and Landorus-Therian, the latter being commonly used defensively and Landorus-I having a slow speed tier compared to other offensive Pokemon in the tier. Zacian and Chien-Pao can be used as substitute Ground-types almost and have incredible speed stats of 138 and 135 respectively and I fear without these, Steel-types and other Pokemon punished by Ground-type attacks will be pushed to the forefront of the metagame

While tera ground can be used on these Pokemon, tera fire is preferred for its immunity to wisp, its resistance to fleur cannon/draining kiss, resistance to ice, and not type stacking with lando-t. Your point still stands, but tera ground is less common than fire.

 

[Marshme1to]

i agree with everything sword said

replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2181557170

 

[avaluggsimp]

I'm not sure why we would do a tera blast suspect before an NDW suspect honestly. I'm personally of the opinion that tera blast isnt a problem but im underqualified to defend myself there. However, it seems like an NDW suspect is something that a majority of qualified players would agree with, whereas opinions on tera blast are very divided. As Fc said, with NDW being the most egregious abuser of tera blast, the meta without it would either bring attention to other tera blast abusers like Zacian or Pao (who maybe aren't worth the opportunity cost of using TB on over NDW), or the meta would be able to adapt to these new threats and a TB test wouldn't be needed.

Obviously it's too late for this, but I think this suspect was very rushed and the move probably won't be banned anyway.

 

[Rasche]

Explanation on why I voted to keep tera blast in the current UUbers metagame:

While it is gimmicky, I don't believe tera blast is egregious enough in its own right to be banned from the current UUbers metagame. Firstly, I want to stress how much commitment tera blast requires, needing you to commit both your tera and giving up a moveslot. For this reason, we see tera blast most commonly being used on only a handful of mons, most notably, NDW, zacian and chien-pao. Most other common mons, especially those with great defensive typing such as magearna and lando seldom use tera blast. Getting a cheese/lure kill with e.g. tera blast ground magearna is rarely worth losing the ability to check arc-dark, chien-pao, terapagos etc... Even mons such as deo and mewtwo have too many different checks to really abuse tera blast and often just use it for MU fishing (often still weak to being revenged) or for additional coverage which is rarely overwhelming.

Going over the most common tera blast users;

Chien-pao is a strong user of tera blast, most commonly turning into a fire or ground type to OHKO magearna. While pao is a potent user of tera blast, I hesitate to call it broken for numerous reasons. SD pao already has a limited moveset and struggles to run all of STABs, TB and priority, tera fire/ground is usually forced to tera to break past magearna/ wisp mons and after that is prone to being revenged by scrafers especially it had to drop priority for tera blast (not to mention most bulky arc forms can tank a neutral +2 pao hit and KO it). Revenge killing options for TB fire pao are splashable so I cant say that TB fire pao restricts building.

Zacian is similar to chien-pao as it commonly uses tera fire/ground to break past magearna/pex, however, unlike pao it is able to run natural coverage moves like fire fang and wild-charge to some success. Personally, I used fire fang zacian in my reqs run and found it to be similar in effectiveness to tera blast fire when using it to break magearnas. Keeping zacian natural fairy typing is super important IMO for using zacian as a defensive check and denying revenge killings options (e.g. against arc-dark, chien pao etc...) so being forced to tera isn't always risk free for zacian. Finally, Zacian can run gimmick tera blast sets such as tera ghost sub pao, although these sets sometimes struggle to even fit tera blast in the moveset, especially if they want to run sub + SD. Gimmick teras which don't beat encore magearna are inconsistent by default and aren't lethal enough to ban tera blast over.

NDW is very broken with tera blast, but its usage of tera blast is essentially just for the fairy coverage and getting past its strongest check in arc-dark. Unlike the other TB users, NDW actively wants to tera in a match (prism armour + tera is broken in its own right), and only really needs its ghost + fairy coverage in its moveslot to be effective. This allows NDW to run sets ranging from CM + moonlight to meteor beam + TR with the option for additional tech options. I think that NDW is unique in its abuse of tera in general and banning tera blast wouldn't prevent people NDW running alternative tech options to bypass its limited checks. NDW is too easy to splash on a team and its offensive sets (even tera ground/fairy + earth power) are too effective at trading or breaking holes into teams.
NDW abuses the lack of strong ghost resists in the meta (restricts teambuilding), is difficult to revenge kill, makes it difficult to run passive defoggers such as giratina and as a bulky ghost makes hazard stacking very viable in the tier. For these reasons and more, I believe NDW should be suspected in the future.

Finally, I think its worth mentioning that lesser used mons such as regieleki (and to some extent volc) would lose viability in Ubers UU if tera blast is banned. I think this would be a significant loss for the tier as a whole as these mons provide a useful niche (eleki is a good spinner, volc naturally threatens arc-grass/ dark& non tera fire zacian) for some teams.

 

[PandaDoux]

Ok i've been watching a roomtour on UMs in UUbers and i have to say that Tera, the mechanic as a whole, looks completely stupid, especially with Arceus lol, i don't know anything about the tier other than this roomtour i've watched, i don't know if players have good teams or whatever, but in 7 matches, 5 ended with a sweep from a Pokemon with Tera OR the Pokemon who used Tera had such a huge impact that the opponent barely could have done anything, although idk how works Terapagos so game 4 might not count as a Terapagos tera sweep but just as Terapagos alone, but still, out of 7 games, 4 ended with the Pokemon who used Tera either sweep the entire team or obliterate the opponent's team

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2194321328
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2194317684
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2194317531
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2194320574
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2194322664

I haven't read anything about the Tera Blast suspect stuff, and again, i don't know if the players had good teams and stuff, but when i'm watching Arceus-Ground (Tera) sweeping the entire team in a tier where Arceus-Ground is supposedly banned.... something doesn't look right lol

 

[SwordIsBored]

Recent discussion has came up recently, or not I don't really know, about Magearna being forced on just about every team. This is evident from just one look from the Sample Teams and it sitting at the top of the Viability Rankings. I'd like to cleanly segway this into saying that Chien-Pao should be banned.

In my opinion, Chien-Pao was a primary reason the recent suspect of Tera Blast even happened and that just seemed like delaying the inevitable. Magearna's relevance is purely because of Chien-Pao who is the Pokemon that keeps NDW in check which causes a triangle of sorts. In my opinion, I genuinely think both Chien-Pao and NDW should go.

Overall, defensive cores in your typical Ubers UU team has been dumbed down to Magearna, Arceus and some Ground-type typically. After all, the things I mentioned earlier being the Sample Teams which I think represent a lot of commonly used teams greatly is evidence for this and I greatly believe this has come to be just because of Chien Pao's presence.

Literally, I think this tier could just do with a mass banning. First, ban sleep as nobody would care remotely if that was banned and follow with banning Chien-Pao and Necrozma-Dawn-Wings in honestly whatever order.

 

[Leo Justice]

Ok i've been watching a roomtour on UMs in UUbers and i have to say that Tera, the mechanic as a whole, looks completely stupid, especially with Arceus lol, i don't know anything about the tier other than this roomtour i've watched, i don't know if players have good teams or whatever, but in 7 matches, 5 ended with a sweep from a Pokemon with Tera OR the Pokemon who used Tera had such a huge impact that the opponent barely could have done anything, although idk how works Terapagos so game 4 might not count as a Terapagos tera sweep but just as Terapagos alone, but still, out of 7 games, 4 ended with the Pokemon who used Tera either sweep the entire team or obliterate the opponent's team

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2194321328
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2194317684
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2194317531
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2194320574
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2194322664

I haven't read anything about the Tera Blast suspect stuff, and again, i don't know if the players had good teams and stuff, but when i'm watching Arceus-Ground (Tera) sweeping the entire team in a tier where Arceus-Ground is supposedly banned.... something doesn't look right lol

Some of these replays are... something to be sure. A lot of them are bad examples of Tera being problematic considering that some of these are people either getting haxxed, outplayed or misplaying

The first replay is kind of really hard to determine if it would've swept or not considering there was an immediate forfeit, and i know that it would've taken a lot of resources to not lose but it was not impossible. The situation came about because of a thunder wave miss, as if Magearna was running the standard move of encore it wouldn't have been an issue, and if it had connected it's move then it would've just simply not happened.

The second game is an actually good example of Tera being a problem, but the issue in this replay is chien pao. Which, while a lot of people say it's fine in the tier, I think that it's not healthy due to situations like these.

The third game was a misplay on the way you handle Arceus, as answering it with a ground type is not always the best option due to its access to ice beam. There was a whole Zacian in the back and they went to Zamazenta to try and stop it.

Fourth game is the terapagos game, and tera was literally not a factor. If you check the entire team, it's all poisoned or burned. Terapagos only tera'd for style points as it literally wouldn't have made s difference besides maybe buying a turn for the toxic damage to increase.

The last replay is a bad team that can't handle Necrozma vs it. Like genuinely there was very little the team could do but encore with indeedee and pray that was enough. If indeedee ever went down it was game over. So it eventually went down and then ndw swept from there.

I think you can make a case about tera being broken, but i genuinely think that there should be better examples like the second game rather than the 4th game which was your worst example by far.

 

[PandaDoux]

Some of these replays are... something to be sure. A lot of them are bad examples of Tera being problematic considering that some of these are people either getting haxxed, outplayed or misplaying

The first replay is kind of really hard to determine if it would've swept or not considering there was an immediate forfeit, and i know that it would've taken a lot of resources to not lose but it was not impossible. The situation came about because of a thunder wave miss, as if Magearna was running the standard move of encore it wouldn't have been an issue, and if it had connected it's move then it would've just simply not happened.

The second game is an actually good example of Tera being a problem, but the issue in this replay is chien pao. Which, while a lot of people say it's fine in the tier, I think that it's not healthy due to situations like these.

The third game was a misplay on the way you handle Arceus, as answering it with a ground type is not always the best option due to its access to ice beam. There was a whole Zacian in the back and they went to Zamazenta to try and stop it.

Fourth game is the terapagos game, and tera was literally not a factor. If you check the entire team, it's all poisoned or burned. Terapagos only tera'd for style points as it literally wouldn't have made s difference besides maybe buying a turn for the toxic damage to increase.

The last replay is a bad team that can't handle Necrozma vs it. Like genuinely there was very little the team could do but encore with indeedee and pray that was enough. If indeedee ever went down it was game over. So it eventually went down and then ndw swept from there.

I think you can make a case about tera being broken, but i genuinely think that there should be better examples like the second game rather than the 4th game which was your worst example by far.

Ty for answering, i'm not really surprised most replays are bad examples of "tera being broken", although it still feels weird to have half of Arceus forms banned from the tier, being technically still allowed through Tera, for example Arceus-Ground came up in the replays, Arceus-Fly as well, but both of these Arceus versions are banned from the tier, i've been told that Arceus-Dark into Fairy through tera was also played, like, having to still prep for something technically banned is very weird to me, + the fact that Tera Blast has been suspected looked like perhaps a solution to the tier would be to just ban Tera instead of Tera Blast or its abusers, but again i don't play the tier, everything i've been saying comes from someone who is not experienced with UUbers at all, i was just surprised with how efficient Tera was during the roomtour i've watched and since it looked like people had mixed feelings on Tera Blast i'd make a little post.

Anyway i'm excited to see UUbers in UMPL this year! From what i've seen the tier looks quite fun and hopefully it will allow the community to grow more since it looks like the tier is relatively new but already quite big

 

[BigFatMantis]

Ty for answering, i'm not really surprised most replays are bad examples of "tera being broken", although it still feels weird to have half of Arceus forms banned from the tier, being technically still allowed through Tera, for example Arceus-Ground came up in the replays, Arceus-Fly as well, but both of these Arceus versions are banned from the tier, i've been told that Arceus-Dark into Fairy through tera was also played, like, having to still prep for something technically banned is very weird to me, + the fact that Tera Blast has been suspected looked like perhaps a solution to the tier would be to just ban Tera instead of Tera Blast or its abusers, but again i don't play the tier, everything i've been saying comes from someone who is not experienced with UUbers at all, i was just surprised with how efficient Tera was during the roomtour i've watched and since it looked like people had mixed feelings on Tera Blast i'd make a little post.

Anyway i'm excited to see UUbers in UMPL this year! From what i've seen the tier looks quite fun and hopefully it will allow the community to grow more since it looks like the tier is relatively new but already quite big

I think this is more of an Arceus issue than a Tera issue - some people would like to a tier with less Arceus forms available to use. That being said it’s a lot easier to comfortably set up and Tera with something like Arceus-Dragon than say, Arceus-Ice.

 

[Leo Justice]

I think this is more of an Arceus issue than a Tera issue - some people would like to a tier with less Arceus forms available to use. That being said it’s a lot easier to comfortably set up and Tera with something like Arceus-Dragon than say, Arceus-Ice.

I'd argue that the Arceus would be more problematic if less forms were to be used by the simple fact that they would be bigger tera targets. Arceus ice would just be tera'd to water instantly upon entering the field. Arceus bug would instantly turn to tera normal for Espeed sets, and Arceus Psychic would turn to tera steel or tera fairy to be an unstoppable force.


With less Arceus to stop them (since the defensive / utility Arceus are usually the best Arceus types like poison and dark) it means that offensive Arceus will be the norm, resulting in more tera Arceus wars. Arceus has too many stats and if their typing is bad they'd just forgoe it entirely. It's not uncommon for some Arceus sets rn to give up stab entirely if it's bad or it doesn't fit the set's coverage (Ekiller sets and defensive/utility Arceus come to my mind). But i imagine it'll be worse when every Arceus is tera reliant to be good. In this Sense, I think that we'd need to ban all Arceus forms (including the bad ones) which i don't think anyone wants to do (Arceus bug fans would be in shambles)

 

[KineSquared]

So what can get better now that ndw is gone? mewtwo? giratina? slowking-galar? Is terap going to get worse?

 

[Finchely]

M2 def gets a lil better I think. Psystrike/focus blast/fire blast doesn't get blanked nearly as hard now by common meta threats. Terap didn't actually ever beat tera'd NDW so I think that terap's viability will remain the same. Glowking still suffers imo from not having the stats or typing to really function well as a great defensive pivot and it was never really in competition with NDW. Tina might get a little more use cause ndw teams never ran tina, altho they still don't function quite the same. The only thing they really competed for was the spot of ghost type since stacking ghosts isn't really a great idea with how many good dark types we have. I do think that arc usage might diversify a lil bit tho cause a lot of the reason i ran arc poison was cause the support set pressured it pretty well

 

[JustCallMeFish]

So what can get better now that ndw is gone? mewtwo? giratina? slowking-galar? Is terap going to get worse?

Mewtwo is a winner of the Dawn Wings ban as it no longer needs to slot coverage or lose to it
Giratina gets much better due to one of the main things that beat it is now gone, defog is back
IMO Slowking is about the same since chilly reception was major help on beating Dawn Wings though it did get threatened by it, though more on the losing side
Terapagos is sill amazing and will continue to be even though it definitively gets worse (mainly due to giratina getting better), still top 5 in my opinion, though lower than before
all the darks get a bit worse due to losing the great matchup they had on Dawn Wings, though i'd say that Arceus Dark is still as good as before due to crozma tera blasting it anyways and giratina getting better
In my opinion, the biggest loser of this is Tyranitar since one of it's main selling points was how it beat Dawn Wings and Terapagos extremely well due to sand, both getting worse, Giratina doesn't care as much about it due to will-o wisp.
Biggest winners are probably going to be the Psychics/Stored Power mons like Double Dance Magearna, Cosmic Power Arceus, Mewtwo, Lugia (if you count that) and Espathra (LMAO), psychics lose the competition and a massive wall for their stab (mostly what i wrote for mewtwo but worse for a lot of them) while (the move) stored power has the main thing that shuts it down (besides gearna) gone now, though encore magearna will still keep them in check, definitively better though, will experiment more with Espathra now that the bat can't fodder it

 

[Poosh_i]

Terap? Getting worse? One of the few reasons it *had* to run dark pulse is gone, no more support photon to worry about, and unlike NDW the best thing tina can do to Terap is run CM, or get minimal dtail chip that alo can easily restore for terap. Now options like ice beam, earth power, and potentially flamethrower are all options it can choose from.

Glowking gets moderately better directly, but also arc poison is likely to also get even better again so ultimately i'd say it's net neutral, if not potentially worse overall.

Mewtwo needs to go now.

Giratina I won't touch on much at the moment. After more usage I might make another post. Doing some experimentation.

So what can get better now that ndw is gone? mewtwo? giratina? slowking-galar? Is terap going to get worse?

 

[JustCallMeFish]

Terap? Getting worse? One of the few reasons it *had* to run dark pulse is gone, no more support photon to worry about, and unlike NDW the best thing tina can do to Terap is run CM, or get minimal dtail chip that alo can easily restore for terap. Now options like ice beam, earth power, and potentially flamethrower are all options it can choose from.

Glowking gets moderately better directly, but also arc poison is likely to also get even better again so ultimately i'd say it's net neutral, if not potentially worse overall.

Mewtwo needs to go now.

Giratina I won't touch on much at the moment. After more usage I might make another post. Doing some experimentation.

The reason you can argue terap gets worse is due to tina getting better, which is good competition as removal and a good anwser to it (terap can't really punish tina that hard like it could NDW with Dpulse)