Metagame SV Ubers UU Metagame Discussion (Zacian Ban @ Post #671)

[LovelyLuna]

Wanted to compile usage stats, some interesting results:

UUbers PL

+ ---- + -------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + -------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Zacian | 103 | 56.59% | 49.51% |
| 2 | Giratina | 86 | 47.25% | 47.67% |
| 3 | Arceus-Poison | 77 | 42.31% | 48.05% |
| 4 | Magearna | 70 | 38.46% | 47.14% |
| 5 | Landorus | 52 | 28.57% | 53.85% |
| 6 | Moltres | 32 | 17.58% | 40.63% |
| 7 | Arceus-Dark | 32 | 17.58% | 53.13% |
| 8 | Arceus-Electric | 29 | 15.93% | 55.17% |
| 9 | Terapagos | 27 | 14.84% | 48.15% |
| 10 | Gouging Fire | 26 | 14.29% | 50.00% |
| 11 | Samurott-Hisui | 25 | 13.74% | 68.00% |
| 12 | Chi-Yu | 24 | 13.19% | 54.17% |
| 13 | Deoxys | 22 | 12.09% | 54.55% |
| 14 | Solgaleo | 22 | 12.09% | 40.91% |
| 15 | Hatterene | 19 | 10.44% | 68.42% |
| 16 | Roaring Moon | 19 | 10.44% | 42.11% |
| 17 | Regieleki | 18 | 9.89% | 50.00% |
| 18 | Sneasler | 17 | 9.34% | 41.18% |
| 19 | Latios | 16 | 8.79% | 56.25% |
| 20 | Urshifu | 16 | 8.79% | 25.00% |
| 21 | Mandibuzz | 15 | 8.24% | 53.33% |
| 22 | Mewtwo | 15 | 8.24% | 46.67% |
| 23 | Arceus-Ice | 13 | 7.14% | 61.54% |
| 24 | Gholdengo | 12 | 6.59% | 50.00% |
| 25 | Iron Treads | 12 | 6.59% | 33.33% |
| 26 | Quagsire | 12 | 6.59% | 58.33% |
| 27 | Walking Wake | 10 | 5.49% | 70.00% |
| 28 | Spectrier | 10 | 5.49% | 70.00% |
| 29 | Iron Bundle | 10 | 5.49% | 60.00% |
| 30 | Arceus-Rock | 10 | 5.49% | 40.00% |
| 31 | Palkia-Origin | 9 | 4.95% | 22.22% |
| 32 | Corviknight | 9 | 4.95% | 66.67% |
| 33 | Lugia | 9 | 4.95% | 55.56% |
| 34 | Garganacl | 9 | 4.95% | 66.67% |
| 35 | Ursaluna | 8 | 4.40% | 37.50% |
| 36 | Palafin | 8 | 4.40% | 62.50% |
| 37 | Ogerpon-Hearthflame | 8 | 4.40% | 12.50% |
| 38 | Deoxys-Speed | 8 | 4.40% | 50.00% |
| 39 | Alomomola | 8 | 4.40% | 37.50% |
| 40 | Torkoal | 7 | 3.85% | 85.71% |
| 41 | Kyurem-White | 7 | 3.85% | 85.71% |
| 42 | Gastrodon | 7 | 3.85% | 57.14% |
| 43 | Araquanid | 6 | 3.30% | 0.00% |
| 44 | Blissey | 6 | 3.30% | 50.00% |
| 45 | Rillaboom | 6 | 3.30% | 50.00% |
| 46 | Espathra | 6 | 3.30% | 50.00% |
| 47 | Great Tusk | 6 | 3.30% | 50.00% |
| 48 | Gothitelle | 5 | 2.75% | 40.00% |
| 49 | Toxapex | 5 | 2.75% | 40.00% |
| 50 | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon | 5 | 2.75% | 60.00% |
| 51 | Ditto :Ditto | 5 | 2.75% | 60.00% |
| 52 | Zamazenta-Crowned | 5 | 2.75% | 20.00% |
| 53 | Raging Bolt | 4 | 2.20% | 50.00% |
| 54 | Pecharunt | 4 | 2.20% | 75.00% |
| 55 | Excadrill | 4 | 2.20% | 50.00% |
| 56 | Dragonite | 4 | 2.20% | 25.00% |
| 57 | Okidogi | 4 | 2.20% | 50.00% |
| 58 | Reshiram | 3 | 1.65% | 100.00% |
| 59 | Mimikyu | 3 | 1.65% | 33.33% |
| 60 | Garchomp | 3 | 1.65% | 33.33% |
| 61 | Cresselia | 3 | 1.65% | 66.67% |
| 62 | Regidrago | 3 | 1.65% | 66.67% |
| 63 | Annihilape | 3 | 1.65% | 33.33% |
| 64 | Ninetales | 3 | 1.65% | 33.33% |
| 65 | Dragapult | 3 | 1.65% | 33.33% |
| 66 | Cyclizar | 3 | 1.65% | 33.33% |
| 67 | Arceus-Fighting | 3 | 1.65% | 66.67% |
| 68 | Dialga | 2 | 1.10% | 0.00% |
| 69 | Iron Valiant | 2 | 1.10% | 50.00% |
| 70 | Pelipper | 2 | 1.10% | 50.00% |
| 71 | Orthworm | 2 | 1.10% | 50.00% |
| 72 | Arceus-Grass | 2 | 1.10% | 50.00% |
| 73 | Clodsire | 2 | 1.10% | 50.00% |
| 74 | Volcarona | 2 | 1.10% | 100.00% |
| 75 | Dugtrio | 1 | 0.55% | 100.00% |
| 76 | Clefable | 1 | 0.55% | 100.00% |
| 77 | Arcanine-Hisui | 1 | 0.55% | 100.00% |
| 78 | Morgrem | 1 | 0.55% | 100.00% |
| 79 | Latias | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 80 | Arceus-Bug | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 82 | Indeedee | 1 | 0.55% | 100.00% |
| 83 | Polteageist | 1 | 0.55% | 100.00% |
| 84 | Darkrai | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 85 | Deoxys-Defense | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 86 | Lilligant-Hisui | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 87 | Sableye | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 88 | Zamazenta-Crowned | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 89 | Tyranitar | 1 | 0.55% | 100.00% |
| 90 | Bronzong | 1 | 0.55% | 100.00% |
| 91 | Dialga-Origin | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 92 | Krookodile | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 93 | Slowking | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 94 | Iron Crown | 1 | 0.55% | 100.00% |
| 95 | Archaludon | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 96 | Mew | 1 | 0.55% | 100.00% |
| 97 | Skarmory | 1 | 0.55% | 100.00% |
| 98 | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 99 | Ogerpon-Wellspring | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 100 | Galvantula | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 101 | Slowking-Galar | 1 | 0.55% | 100.00% |
| 102 | Iron Thorns | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 103 | Slowbro-Galar | 1 | 0.55% | 0.00% |
| 104 | Lycanroc | 1 | 0.55% | 100.00% |

UUbers Swiss 2 Elimination rounds

+ ---- + -------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + -------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Zacian | 125 | 44.01% | 46.40% |
| 2 | Magearna | 116 | 40.85% | 48.28% |
| 3 | Arceus-Poison | 104 | 36.62% | 55.77% |
| 4 | Giratina | 101 | 35.56% | 51.49% |
| 5 | Landorus | 101 | 35.56% | 46.53% |
| 6 | Terapagos | 80 | 28.17% | 47.50% |
| 7 | Roaring Moon | 50 | 17.61% | 54.00% |
| 8 | Gouging Fire | 47 | 16.55% | 48.94% |
| 9 | Mewtwo | 45 | 15.85% | 62.22% |
| 10 | Arceus-Electric | 41 | 14.44% | 51.22% |
| 11 | Alomomola | 34 | 11.97% | 41.18% |
| 12 | Hatterene | 33 | 11.62% | 42.42% |
| 13 | Deoxys | 32 | 11.27% | 40.63% |
| 14 | Deoxys-Speed | 32 | 11.27% | 50.00% |
| 15 | Urshifu | 31 | 10.91% | 45.16% |
| 16 | Moltres | 30 | 10.56% | 60.00% |
| 17 | Arceus-Dark | 28 | 9.86% | 35.71% |
| 18 | Chi-Yu | 27 | 9.51% | 48.15% |
| 19 | Regieleki | 23 | 8.10% | 43.48% |
| 20 | Excadrill | 21 | 7.39% | 66.67% |
| 21 | Ogerpon-Hearthflame | 21 | 7.39% | 47.62% |
| 22 | Walking Wake | 21 | 7.39% | 47.62% |
| 23 | Palkia-Origin | 21 | 7.39% | 52.38% |
| 24 | Araquanid | 17 | 5.99% | 47.06% |
| 25 | Samurott-Hisui | 17 | 5.99% | 58.82% |
| 26 | Palafin | 17 | 5.99% | 41.18% |
| 27 | Blissey | 17 | 5.99% | 64.71% |
| 28 | Clodsire | 16 | 5.63% | 50.00% |
| 29 | Sneasler | 16 | 5.63% | 50.00% |
| 30 | Arceus-Grass | 16 | 5.63% | 43.75% |
| 31 | Spectrier | 16 | 5.63% | 50.00% |
| 32 | Arceus-Rock | 15 | 5.28% | 40.00% |
| 33 | Lugia | 15 | 5.28% | 46.67% |
| 34 | Ursaluna | 14 | 4.93% | 64.29% |
| 35 | Kyurem-White | 14 | 4.93% | 35.71% |
| 36 | Corviknight | 14 | 4.93% | 64.29% |
| 37 | Gholdengo | 13 | 4.58% | 46.15% |
| 38 | Torkoal | 13 | 4.58% | 38.46% |
| 39 | Arceus-Fighting | 13 | 4.58% | 30.77% |
| 40 | Garganacl | 12 | 4.23% | 58.33% |
| 41 | Cyclizar | 12 | 4.23% | 58.33% |
| 42 | Quagsire | 11 | 3.87% | 63.64% |
| 43 | Gothitelle | 11 | 3.87% | 54.55% |
| 44 | Latios | 11 | 3.87% | 81.82% |
| 45 | Toxapex | 10 | 3.52% | 70.00% |
| 46 | Reshiram | 10 | 3.52% | 30.00% |
| 47 | Tyranitar | 10 | 3.52% | 60.00% |
| 48 | Solgaleo | 9 | 3.17% | 44.44% |
| 49 | Raging Bolt | 9 | 3.17% | 66.67% |
| 50 | Annihilape | 9 | 3.17% | 55.56% |
| 51 | Mandibuzz | 9 | 3.17% | 66.67% |
| 52 | Dondozo | 9 | 3.17% | 44.44% |
| 53 | Orthworm | 9 | 3.17% | 22.22% |
| 54 | Ninetales | 8 | 2.82% | 62.50% |
| 55 | Pelipper | 8 | 2.82% | 25.00% |
| 56 | Espathra | 8 | 2.82% | 62.50% |
| 57 | Dialga-Origin | 7 | 2.46% | 71.43% |
| 58 | Arceus-Psychic | 6 | 2.11% | 50.00% |
| 59 | Great Tusk | 6 | 2.11% | 0.00% |
| 60 | Arceus-Ice | 6 | 2.11% | 66.67% |
| 61 | Ogerpon-Wellspring | 6 | 2.11% | 83.33% |
| 62 | Rillaboom | 5 | 1.76% | 40.00% |
| 63 | Zamazenta-Crowned | 5 | 1.76% | 60.00% |
| 64 | Okidogi | 5 | 1.76% | 60.00% |
| 65 | Mimikyu | 5 | 1.76% | 60.00% |
| 66 | Clefable | 5 | 1.76% | 20.00% |
| 67 | Bronzong | 5 | 1.76% | 40.00% |
| 68 | Archaludon | 4 | 1.41% | 25.00% |
| 69 | Barraskewda | 4 | 1.41% | 25.00% |
| 70 | Baxcalibur | 4 | 1.41% | 75.00% |
| 71 | Skarmory | 4 | 1.41% | 50.00% |
| 72 | Ditto | 3 | 1.06% | 33.33% |
| 73 | Iron Valiant | 3 | 1.06% | 100.00% |
| 74 | Galvantula | 3 | 1.06% | 100.00% |
| 75 | Arceus-Bug | 3 | 1.06% | 66.67% |
| 76 | Dragonite | 3 | 1.06% | 33.33% |
| 77 | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike | 2 | 0.70% | 0.00% |
| 78 | Cresselia | 2 | 0.70% | 0.00% |
| 79 | Slowking-Galar | 2 | 0.70% | 0.00% |
| 80 | Tornadus-Therian | 2 | 0.70% | 50.00% |
| 81 | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon | 2 | 0.70% | 100.00% |
| 82 | Ninetales-Alola | 2 | 0.70% | 100.00% |
| 83 | Smeargle | 2 | 0.70% | 100.00% |
| 84 | Volcarona | 2 | 0.70% | 50.00% |
| 85 | Muk-Alola | 2 | 0.70% | 100.00% |
| 86 | Dialga | 2 | 0.70% | 50.00% |
| 87 | Dragapult | 2 | 0.70% | 50.00% |
| 88 | Gligar | 2 | 0.70% | 50.00% |
| 89 | Sableye | 2 | 0.70% | 50.00% |
| 90 | Gastrodon | 1 | 0.35% | 100.00% |
| 91 | Slowking | 1 | 0.35% | 100.00% |
| 92 | Kommo-o | 1 | 0.35% | 0.00% |
| 93 | Magnezone | 1 | 0.35% | 100.00% |
| 94 | Meowscarada | 1 | 0.35% | 100.00% |
| 95 | Zoroark-Hisui | 1 | 0.35% | 0.00% |
| 96 | Dugtrio | 1 | 0.35% | 100.00% |
| 97 | Scizor | 1 | 0.35% | 100.00% |
| 98 | Volcanion | 1 | 0.35% | 0.00% |
| 99 | Ogerpon | 1 | 0.35% | 0.00% |
| 100 | Donphan | 1 | 0.35% | 0.00% |
| 101 | Houndstone | 1 | 0.35% | 0.00% |
| 102 | Whimsicott | 1 | 0.35% | 0.00% |
| 103 | Gastrodon-East | 1 | 0.35% | 0.00% |
| 104 | Diancie | 1 | 0.35% | 0.00% |
| 105 | Amoonguss | 1 | 0.35% | 0.00% |
| 106 | Darkrai | 1 | 0.35% | 0.00% |
| 107 | Palkia | 1 | 0.35% | 0.00% |

 

[Finchely]

We've all seen the announcement. If you haven't, go watch this video or something. TLDR, Tera will remain legal in all official tiers for the rest of SV.

As an unofficial tier, we are not beholden to this announcement. That said, we will anyways.

Ubers UU is the UU tier to Ubers. This is reflected in our slightly lower ban% threshold than Ubers. Despite not being an official tier, we are still an offshoot of an official tier, and our rules are structured around aligning with official tiering policy. As such, Tera will remain legal in Ubers UU for the rest of SV, and we will not ever consider Tera for tiering action again, unless there the decision among official tiers is reversed.

Up until now, I have spoken under the assumption that it is clear to all that we are indeed so closely tied to the official tiering system, and not "our own thing" instead. And now, I will make it clear that it is indeed the case. The tiering council actually came together some time ago to address the issue of where exactly do we lie within the Smogon framework, and to set down clear expectations for discussions going forward. We had an announcement drafted up, but bureaucracy bogged it down and it never got put out. That said, here is the closest thing we currently have to a council consensus on it:

council announcement

Whenever controversial elements rise to the limelight within our tier, a certain question keeps popping up, so we on the Ubers UU council have decided to make an official statement in regards to it, to finally settle discussion of the topic. We are Ubers UU, and exist in an unusual state of being both an Ubers tier and a UU tier. Because our base tier is Ubers, we always adhere to the mechanical rulesets that are in play in Ubers. For example, weather evasion abilities are Ubers-legal, and thus are legal here. If Ubers were to make a complex ban on weather evasion abilities, we would immediately adhere to that decision regardless of weather evasion abilities' place in our meta. That said, if mechanics legal in Ubers were to present themselves as problematic and broken in our tier, we are free to act on it as we decide is fit. The second portion of this issue is as it pertains to the percentage of ban votes required to enact tiering action. Adhering to this philosphy of being a lower tier, our ban percentage is 60%. It can be argued that we are placing ourselves closer to OU than Ubers by doing this, but our rationale is that UU's ban percentage is slightly lower than that of OU's, and so it is only natural for us as Ubers UU to have a slightly lower ban percentage than our mother tier.

I acknowledge that this declaration does not directly address the topic of Tera, but the sentiment is relevant regardless. We are connected to official tiering. This is not up for debate.

I do wish to be frank for a short period. I despise Tera. I think that it's one of the most god-awful mechanics in Pokemon history, only second to Dynamax. I have voted 10 on Tera for just about every previous iteration of the UUbers tiering survey, and I voted to ban Tera Blast when we had that suspect. If I could Thanos snap Tera out of existence or even just out of Ubers UU, I would do so in a heartbeat. Personally speaking, SV will go down as my most-despised generation most likely.

I say this all to point out that I am not happy with this announcement, that Tera is off the table. I am saddened by the way our meta has been and will continue to be irrevocably changed Tera, and I think it is regrettable that we couldn't and might not be able to preserve parts of our meta that might be otherwise healthy. That said, my hatred of the mechanic does not outweigh my respect for the steps and rules that must be followed.

The silver lining I do see here, is that I believe that this will have a net positive impact on the tier. Recently, discussions on tiering have been slightly paralyzed, due to a polarization between people who think Tera the problem, and people who think that individual Pokemon are the problem. Hopefully we'll see more agreement going forward, between all members of the community.

While the Ubers UU of February 2025 may die in the process, we'll hopefully see the faster development of a more perfect metagame in any subsequent iterations.

 

[ant4456]

I say this all to point out that I am not happy with this announcement, that Tera is off the table. I am saddened by the way our meta has been and will continue to be irrevocably changed Tera, and I think it is regrettable that we couldn't and might not be able to preserve parts of our meta that might be otherwise healthy. That said, my hatred of the mechanic does not outweigh my respect for the steps and rules that must be followed.

 

[Frito]

Hello everyone, the council is currently discussing potential tiering action on Zacian!

​

Zacian has been a controversial member of the tier since Landorus-Therian and Chien-Pao rose to Ubers proper in January. With the rise of Tera Blast Ground + Wild Charge sets invalidating most forms of defensive counterplay, as well as the uptick in LO and CB Zacian to break even the most sturdy defensive mons. However, Zacian is an integral piece to the tier's defensive profile providing great ways to keep HO teams and Arceus-Dark in check most notably. We are interested in hearing people's opinion on potential Zacian action.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Personally I think Zacian is a very good mon, and almost essential piece to most teams. I don’t think it’s banworthy though, but if enough people do think so I wouldn’t oppose a suspect of it. Zacian’s been doing the same thing for literal years in this tier, I always thought it was way better than people made it out to be in the past, and currently I think it’s just as good but not totally overbearing.

There was a point in time when NDW + Zacian together made a good case for a Tera Blast (not Tera) ban, and at that time I did support a ban of Tera Blast since there’s no real way Zacian (or NDW) was close to busted without Tera Blast. I don’t think anything has changed since on my stance regarding that - I think Zacian is simply continuing to do what it has always done, and the tier has survived fine with it.

 

[FishyRoads]

Hello everyone, the council is currently discussing potential tiering action on Zacian!

​

Zacian has been a controversial member of the tier since Landorus-Therian and Chien-Pao rose to Ubers proper in January. With the rise of Tera Blast Ground + Wild Charge sets invalidating most forms of defensive counterplay, as well as the uptick in LO and CB Zacian to break even the most sturdy defensive mons. However, Zacian is an integral piece to the tier's defensive profile providing great ways to keep HO teams and Arceus-Dark in check most notably. We are interested in hearing people's opinion on potential Zacian action.

Zacian is not as invalidating a mon as most say, i've heard things such as "Zacian invalidates balance" an "Zacian makes offense way too dominant" both things i just find to simply not be the case, balance is certainly viable and while offense is a dominating playstyle right now, and zacian is part of that, it doesn't feel unbearable.
What i will say though, is that Zacian has way too much set variety, the standard set of Heavy-Duty-Boots, Swords Dance, Play Rough, TB Ground and Wild Charge is already pretty difficult to deal with, requiring either Terastalization or a specialized counter such as Quagsire, but when you add everything else it can run it becomes too much.
You want to use will o wisp defensive arceus or Giratina while using Tera? Oh it has a lum berry, okay, you want to use one of the unaware mons that so reliably counter it? Ah it was Pixie Plate/Life Orb Tera Fairy, you have a more offensive team and want to revenge kill it with Deoxys? Ah it trailblazed on it's free turn and now you lose, Chi Yu? Tera Fire Psychic Fangs is still a great set, using Alomomola to burn it? Oh, too bad it has substitute, the list goes on, i do not find it reasonable to anwser everything Zacian has at it's disposal while still anwsering other key meta threats

 

[Rasche]

Zacian is a potent breaker and sweeper in the current meta. Due to the lack of solid defensive cores in the tier right now, most counter-play to the common tera-blast zacian is based on (scarfed) RKers, status moves and strong prio options. Personally, I think this counterplay is enough for most teamstyles (including other offensive structures). While yes, zacian can randomly tech on options to beat the aforementioned counterplay (lum for status for example) most teams can afford (and should have) multiple ways of answering SD zacian. Right now we are in a offense-heavy meta, and therefore every team should be trying to afford as much anti-offense techs as possible. The removal of zacian would not remove this requirement; if anything it would make it more difficult to trade with other offensive threats in our metagame e.g. DD dragons, CM arcs etc... While our tier lacks strong defensive cores to handle these offensive threats, I am sure even more anti-offense techs will become common to account for not only zacian but other heavy hitters in our metagame. Recently, we have seen red card mimikyu, grassy terrain offense and +spe encore iron bundle be used to check the offense in our tier and I am sure with UUFPL we will see new techs be used too, while teambuilding in this meta is difficult, banning zacian will not help.

There was a point in time when NDW + Zacian together made a good case for a Tera Blast (not Tera) ban, and at that time I did support a ban of Tera Blast since there’s no real way Zacian (or NDW) was close to busted without Tera Blast. I don’t think anything has changed since on my stance regarding that - I think Zacian is simply continuing to do what it has always done, and the tier has survived fine with it.

If there is one regret I have in my decision making for this tier it is probably my vote on Tera blast. At the time of the previous tera suspect, we had strong lando-t based defensive cores to scout around zacian movesets which on top of the anti-offense counterplay which existed at the time made me feel that zacian was not too powerful even with tera blast. This essentially made the suspect a question of whether NDW would be balanced without tera blast which was something I believed would not be the case and hence I pushed for a NDW suspect/ban. Obviously, I did not foresee Ubers UU losing Lando-T and even anti-offense pieces like ice shard/sucker chienpao which has lead to sets like wildcharge/tera blast ground/SD zacian becoming actually viable sets where in previous metas these sets would of been much less reliable. Without tera blast, I don't think there would ever have been a world in which zacian could of been as potent as it is currently, so yea big whoops on my part.

 

[Celeste]

I got a lot to say (you shouldn't be surprised) so lets get into this:

Zacian in my time with the tier has been really really dominant, and I don't entirely think in a good way. I haven't been properly active in the tier until after the Lando-T rise so I don't have the experience looking at a time in the meta where Zacian could have been way more healthy, and have just really experienced it now. And from my experience, Zacian has been warping in all sorts of aspects of both play and teambuilding. Its set variety feels very problematic to me, where some teams just won't have a proper answer to it or have to use a ton of resources to check it if they dont get the set right. The SD Wild Charge + TB Ground sets are already excellent, but Zacian still has other options to be able to muscle through the checks that can beat the SD set. Psychic fangs provides a non tera reliant option to break through Arceus Poison on teams where a lack of TB Ground can be accounted for, LO and CB sets both add an additional level of breaking power that can let zacian pummel mons like Quag that have become more popular, and this level of unpredictability alone already makes checking Zacian in game very difficult, as you can rarely get a grasp on exactly what set a Zacian might be running if you don't already know the team.

One thing that is worth mentioning here is how Tera is often used as a teams own answer to Zacian, be it through Tera Fairy Giratina or something similar, and while this is certainly a valid form of counterplay I think that this still isn't the most consistent as often being able to force Tera with your Zacian can break open the game for its own teammates. Using your own tera to check it can neutralize it, but leaves you more vulnerable and can sometimes still leave your opponent with tera to use on their own mons since as mentioned Zacian is not solely reliant on its Tera Blast based sets to function.

Offensively is where I think Zacian is better consistently "checked", Pokemon that naturally outspeed it like Deoxys and scarfers like Chi-Yu, Landorus, Urshifu Rapid, or Ekiller Arceus (among others) are all able to threaten an RK on it. However I do not believe this alone makes the interactions healthy, as Zacian can still pressure so many offensive mons as well as the defensive mons i mentioned before. Arceus forms are rarely a consistent answer, and a lot of other attackers like Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire aren't able to threaten it without a boost or a specific tera type. While Gouging does have the ability to run moves like burning bulwark almost explicitly for Zacian, this can be ruined by the Zacian holding a lum berry; the item slot being being another aspect of its versatility that makes accounting for it even harder in game. Overall, I think that while Zacian has offensive checks the fact that Zacian is still able to tear up so many pokemon with relative unpredictability, often forcing teams to have specific counterplay (be that defensive mons like Quagsire that arent always useful outside of checking zacian, niche scarfers that make large sacrifices to threaten the revenge kill, burning tera, etc). In game its versatility in sets makes it hard to consistently answer and in the builder the counterplay it forces can make managing it while managing other threats very difficult, though not impossible.

While overall I can agree that Zacian does have counterplay and may not be singlehandedly ruining every game its present in, currently it feels to me as the most oppressive part of the tier thats consistently creating issues, as new answers rise to check it a new set will pop up to handle them. I believe that at the very least suspecting it is probably the best next step going forwards, which brings me to some of my points outside Zacian I'd like to touch on.

Firstly, while I commend the council for encouraging discussion around Zacian I would be remiss to not mention the fact that how the past few months of this tier have been handled feels very underwhelming at the very least. In my time here the outcry has been pretty much constant that there has been something wrong, and the decisions made up to this point have not felt targeted at fixing that with the best efficiency possible- the discussions about Tera felt largely irrelevant at the time as with a few exceptions the entire discussion was riddled with bad faith arguments and lofty claims that a hypothetical teraless meta would be definitively better then a hypothetical Zacian ban, with largely nothing being done by council to actually encourage and partake in productive discussion around the topic. And even on the matter of Zacian, when the outcry in the discord immediately following the tera announcement was that something can finally happen with i think 3 people off the top of my head arguing that nothing should be done, to resort to a forum thread to see if a suspect is even worth doing feels a bit like a cop out to give people a chance to try and prevent action from happening. When the main complaint for the past while has been inaction and tier stagnation, why is it even a question of if a suspect should happen at all? If the result of a zacian suspect is a DNB, that should mean that the the focus on action can be limited further. Not going for a suspect just shows to me that the main concern of the council is trying to please as many people (or at least the loudest people) as possible instead of trying to make the much requested action happen so that some progress can be made on how to fix this tier. Even if people on the council dont think a Zacian ban is warranted, blocking a suspect is just completely nonsensical to me as it alienates the community and prevents a further focusing of how the tier can be fixed, and if its even needed.

Secondly, I want to just take some time to elaborate on my mentioning of Bad Faith arguing as a LOT of that has been happening both in forum threads and the discord, to an extent I have not seen before in terms of just how much unproductive discussion has been happening and encouraged. I'm not trying to say that people have to be complete masters of arguing or anything, but the level of disrespect and straight up rudeness is thats been happening in the discord is something I really feel should be talked about. The tera discussions were largely focused around people just insisting they were right and not being willing to actually have discussions about why they felt the way they did, or engaging in good faith with the people who disagreed. When the idea of a Zacian ban would be mentioned multiple people would divert to "but *insert multiple mons* become broken" while simultaneously claiming that a teraless meta would have no such issues and be balanced. These discussions were almost always allowed to get out of hand and turned into just generally being rude and calling names and these weren't really well managed at all. The same thing has been happening recently with a huge swell of arguing about the recent spidops spam on ladder turning into name calling and a lot of rude and condescending behaviour in general. I hope that going forwards people are able to talk to each other in a more kind/understanding manner and that when the conversations get out of hand the mods are more willing to step in and try and get the conversations under control, and that the council wont add their own vitriol to the mix all while action is still not being taken. It doesnt help create productive conversation about the tier which in my opinion the council should strive to do. Honestly while I have really enjoyed my time so far in this community, I'm still disappointed at how both action is being taken on the tier and how discussion is being handled and moderated- it has just fueled the indecision, stagnation, and overall decline of this metagame when this all could easily be avoided by people being able to actually talk to each other.

Ultimately, I do not see a reason why Zacian should not be suspected right now. I believe that if something is the subject of this much division and community discussion, it should be in everyone's favour to argue that a suspect should happen, and i especially direct this to the council because this should not be a decision made just by what individual council members think should/shouldnt be banned, this should be a decision based off of community input. I have been vocal about the fact that despite the fact I think a tera suspect would have been pointless that I would have been in favour of one because of the division around the topic and community support around action in general had it not been for the recent announcement. We have a system in place to help give us certainty on what to act on, and refusing to allow a suspect to happen on the presumed grounds that there are people who don't want a given result to happen feels like a complete misuse of the system. While I am a staunch Zacian hater and want to see this thing gone, if you don't I ask that you still support a suspect test and vote DNB on it, because at this point I think if anything this tier needs some sort of direction and certainty, and where we are right now gives us none of that.

Anyways, thats my rant. Thanks for reading, and I'm looking forwards to continuing to play the tier and seeing what happens next!

 

[BigFatMantis]

I got a lot to say (you shouldn't be surprised) so lets get into this:

Zacian in my time with the tier has been really really dominant, and I don't entirely think in a good way. I haven't been properly active in the tier until after the Lando-T rise so I don't have the experience looking at a time in the meta where Zacian could have been way more healthy, and have just really experienced it now. And from my experience, Zacian has been warping in all sorts of aspects of both play and teambuilding. Its set variety feels very problematic to me, where some teams just won't have a proper answer to it or have to use a ton of resources to check it if they dont get the set right. The SD Wild Charge + TB Ground sets are already excellent, but Zacian still has other options to be able to muscle through the checks that can beat the SD set. Psychic fangs provides a non tera reliant option to break through Arceus Poison on teams where a lack of TB Ground can be accounted for, LO and CB sets both add an additional level of breaking power that can let zacian pummel mons like Quag that have become more popular, and this level of unpredictability alone already makes checking Zacian in game very difficult, as you can rarely get a grasp on exactly what set a Zacian might be running if you don't already know the team.

One thing that is worth mentioning here is how Tera is often used as a teams own answer to Zacian, be it through Tera Fairy Giratina or something similar, and while this is certainly a valid form of counterplay I think that this still isn't the most consistent as often being able to force Tera with your Zacian can break open the game for its own teammates. Using your own tera to check it can neutralize it, but leaves you more vulnerable and can sometimes still leave your opponent with tera to use on their own mons since as mentioned Zacian is not solely reliant on its Tera Blast based sets to function.

Offensively is where I think Zacian is better consistently "checked", Pokemon that naturally outspeed it like Deoxys and scarfers like Chi-Yu, Landorus, Urshifu Rapid, or Ekiller Arceus (among others) are all able to threaten an RK on it. However I do not believe this alone makes the interactions healthy, as Zacian can still pressure so many offensive mons as well as the defensive mons i mentioned before. Arceus forms are rarely a consistent answer, and a lot of other attackers like Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire aren't able to threaten it without a boost or a specific tera type. While Gouging does have the ability to run moves like burning bulwark almost explicitly for Zacian, this can be ruined by the Zacian holding a lum berry; the item slot being being another aspect of its versatility that makes accounting for it even harder in game. Overall, I think that while Zacian has offensive checks the fact that Zacian is still able to tear up so many pokemon with relative unpredictability, often forcing teams to have specific counterplay (be that defensive mons like Quagsire that arent always useful outside of checking zacian, niche scarfers that make large sacrifices to threaten the revenge kill, burning tera, etc). In game its versatility in sets makes it hard to consistently answer and in the builder the counterplay it forces can make managing it while managing other threats very difficult, though not impossible.

While overall I can agree that Zacian does have counterplay and may not be singlehandedly ruining every game its present in, currently it feels to me as the most oppressive part of the tier thats consistently creating issues, as new answers rise to check it a new set will pop up to handle them. I believe that at the very least suspecting it is probably the best next step going forwards, which brings me to some of my points outside Zacian I'd like to touch on.

Firstly, while I commend the council for encouraging discussion around Zacian I would be remiss to not mention the fact that how the past few months of this tier have been handled feels very underwhelming at the very least. In my time here the outcry has been pretty much constant that there has been something wrong, and the decisions made up to this point have not felt targeted at fixing that with the best efficiency possible- the discussions about Tera felt largely irrelevant at the time as with a few exceptions the entire discussion was riddled with bad faith arguments and lofty claims that a hypothetical teraless meta would be definitively better then a hypothetical Zacian ban, with largely nothing being done by council to actually encourage and partake in productive discussion around the topic. And even on the matter of Zacian, when the outcry in the discord immediately following the tera announcement was that something can finally happen with i think 3 people off the top of my head arguing that nothing should be done, to resort to a forum thread to see if a suspect is even worth doing feels a bit like a cop out to give people a chance to try and prevent action from happening. When the main complaint for the past while has been inaction and tier stagnation, why is it even a question of if a suspect should happen at all? If the result of a zacian suspect is a DNB, that should mean that the the focus on action can be limited further. Not going for a suspect just shows to me that the main concern of the council is trying to please as many people (or at least the loudest people) as possible instead of trying to make the much requested action happen so that some progress can be made on how to fix this tier. Even if people on the council dont think a Zacian ban is warranted, blocking a suspect is just completely nonsensical to me as it alienates the community and prevents a further focusing of how the tier can be fixed, and if its even needed.

Secondly, I want to just take some time to elaborate on my mentioning of Bad Faith arguing as a LOT of that has been happening both in forum threads and the discord, to an extent I have not seen before in terms of just how much unproductive discussion has been happening and encouraged. I'm not trying to say that people have to be complete masters of arguing or anything, but the level of disrespect and straight up rudeness is thats been happening in the discord is something I really feel should be talked about. The tera discussions were largely focused around people just insisting they were right and not being willing to actually have discussions about why they felt the way they did, or engaging in good faith with the people who disagreed. When the idea of a Zacian ban would be mentioned multiple people would divert to "but *insert multiple mons* become broken" while simultaneously claiming that a teraless meta would have no such issues and be balanced. These discussions were almost always allowed to get out of hand and turned into just generally being rude and calling names and these weren't really well managed at all. The same thing has been happening recently with a huge swell of arguing about the recent spidops spam on ladder turning into name calling and a lot of rude and condescending behaviour in general. I hope that going forwards people are able to talk to each other in a more kind/understanding manner and that when the conversations get out of hand the mods are more willing to step in and try and get the conversations under control, and that the council wont add their own vitriol to the mix all while action is still not being taken. It doesnt help create productive conversation about the tier which in my opinion the council should strive to do. Honestly while I have really enjoyed my time so far in this community, I'm still disappointed at how both action is being taken on the tier and how discussion is being handled and moderated- it has just fueled the indecision, stagnation, and overall decline of this metagame when this all could easily be avoided by people being able to actually talk to each other.

Ultimately, I do not see a reason why Zacian should not be suspected right now. I believe that if something is the subject of this much division and community discussion, it should be in everyone's favour to argue that a suspect should happen, and i especially direct this to the council because this should not be a decision made just by what individual council members think should/shouldnt be banned, this should be a decision based off of community input. I have been vocal about the fact that despite the fact I think a tera suspect would have been pointless that I would have been in favour of one because of the division around the topic and community support around action in general had it not been for the recent announcement. We have a system in place to help give us certainty on what to act on, and refusing to allow a suspect to happen on the presumed grounds that there are people who don't want a given result to happen feels like a complete misuse of the system. While I am a staunch Zacian hater and want to see this thing gone, if you don't I ask that you still support a suspect test and vote DNB on it, because at this point I think if anything this tier needs some sort of direction and certainty, and where we are right now gives us none of that.

Anyways, thats my rant. Thanks for reading, and I'm looking forwards to continuing to play the tier and seeing what happens next!

I’d just like to point out that without making this post inviting discussion on Zacian, there isn’t enough support to suspect with just the previous survey data. So, this post and subsequent discussion is the only way we could arrive at a decision to suspect if necessary or else we are ignoring “the process” that shows not enough support previously. I’m not sure why you are attacking this part specifically, we can’t go and suspect something based on loud discord complaints

 

[Celeste]

I’d just like to point out that without making this post inviting discussion on Zacian, there isn’t enough support to suspect with just the previous survey data. So, this post and subsequent discussion is the only way we could arrive at a decision to suspect if necessary or else we are ignoring “the process” that shows not enough support previously. I’m not sure why you are attacking this part specifically, we can’t go and suspect something based on loud discord complaints

I do completely get that the last survey was not enough to create action, which is why nothing was taken then. My point was more the fact that on both sides (minus a select few people who think the meta is completely fine right now, which they are allowed to think) people have been demanding for some kind of action to happen, and I at least think the action now should be Zacian. My hope is that despite the fact I would have suggested a Zac suspect personally, that this thread results in a suspect going up rather quickly, something im not optimistic about given how useless the last thread felt. I feel like it showed an indication that a tera suspect was at least wanted by people and then all the council who seemed to support it just backed down even before this announcement happened, So i guess my frustration is more based on that. It feels like a lot of things that have been happening is just more and more discussion to prolong action, and I dont want this to lead to people just waiting until drops to make a decision and just let this discussion spiral out of control again. Maybe my pessimism is unwarranted here, but I think im understandably worried that this will just lead to more discourse and more nothing given how discussions like this have gone in the past. Hope that makes sense!

 

[ilikeeatingcrayons]

I got a lot to say (you shouldn't be surprised) so lets get into this:

Zacian in my time with the tier has been really really dominant, and I don't entirely think in a good way. I haven't been properly active in the tier until after the Lando-T rise so I don't have the experience looking at a time in the meta where Zacian could have been way more healthy, and have just really experienced it now. And from my experience, Zacian has been warping in all sorts of aspects of both play and teambuilding. Its set variety feels very problematic to me, where some teams just won't have a proper answer to it or have to use a ton of resources to check it if they dont get the set right. The SD Wild Charge + TB Ground sets are already excellent, but Zacian still has other options to be able to muscle through the checks that can beat the SD set. Psychic fangs provides a non tera reliant option to break through Arceus Poison on teams where a lack of TB Ground can be accounted for, LO and CB sets both add an additional level of breaking power that can let zacian pummel mons like Quag that have become more popular, and this level of unpredictability alone already makes checking Zacian in game very difficult, as you can rarely get a grasp on exactly what set a Zacian might be running if you don't already know the team.

One thing that is worth mentioning here is how Tera is often used as a teams own answer to Zacian, be it through Tera Fairy Giratina or something similar, and while this is certainly a valid form of counterplay I think that this still isn't the most consistent as often being able to force Tera with your Zacian can break open the game for its own teammates. Using your own tera to check it can neutralize it, but leaves you more vulnerable and can sometimes still leave your opponent with tera to use on their own mons since as mentioned Zacian is not solely reliant on its Tera Blast based sets to function.

Offensively is where I think Zacian is better consistently "checked", Pokemon that naturally outspeed it like Deoxys and scarfers like Chi-Yu, Landorus, Urshifu Rapid, or Ekiller Arceus (among others) are all able to threaten an RK on it. However I do not believe this alone makes the interactions healthy, as Zacian can still pressure so many offensive mons as well as the defensive mons i mentioned before. Arceus forms are rarely a consistent answer, and a lot of other attackers like Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire aren't able to threaten it without a boost or a specific tera type. While Gouging does have the ability to run moves like burning bulwark almost explicitly for Zacian, this can be ruined by the Zacian holding a lum berry; the item slot being being another aspect of its versatility that makes accounting for it even harder in game. Overall, I think that while Zacian has offensive checks the fact that Zacian is still able to tear up so many pokemon with relative unpredictability, often forcing teams to have specific counterplay (be that defensive mons like Quagsire that arent always useful outside of checking zacian, niche scarfers that make large sacrifices to threaten the revenge kill, burning tera, etc). In game its versatility in sets makes it hard to consistently answer and in the builder the counterplay it forces can make managing it while managing other threats very difficult, though not impossible.

While overall I can agree that Zacian does have counterplay and may not be singlehandedly ruining every game its present in, currently it feels to me as the most oppressive part of the tier thats consistently creating issues, as new answers rise to check it a new set will pop up to handle them. I believe that at the very least suspecting it is probably the best next step going forwards, which brings me to some of my points outside Zacian I'd like to touch on.

Firstly, while I commend the council for encouraging discussion around Zacian I would be remiss to not mention the fact that how the past few months of this tier have been handled feels very underwhelming at the very least. In my time here the outcry has been pretty much constant that there has been something wrong, and the decisions made up to this point have not felt targeted at fixing that with the best efficiency possible- the discussions about Tera felt largely irrelevant at the time as with a few exceptions the entire discussion was riddled with bad faith arguments and lofty claims that a hypothetical teraless meta would be definitively better then a hypothetical Zacian ban, with largely nothing being done by council to actually encourage and partake in productive discussion around the topic. And even on the matter of Zacian, when the outcry in the discord immediately following the tera announcement was that something can finally happen with i think 3 people off the top of my head arguing that nothing should be done, to resort to a forum thread to see if a suspect is even worth doing feels a bit like a cop out to give people a chance to try and prevent action from happening. When the main complaint for the past while has been inaction and tier stagnation, why is it even a question of if a suspect should happen at all? If the result of a zacian suspect is a DNB, that should mean that the the focus on action can be limited further. Not going for a suspect just shows to me that the main concern of the council is trying to please as many people (or at least the loudest people) as possible instead of trying to make the much requested action happen so that some progress can be made on how to fix this tier. Even if people on the council dont think a Zacian ban is warranted, blocking a suspect is just completely nonsensical to me as it alienates the community and prevents a further focusing of how the tier can be fixed, and if its even needed.

Secondly, I want to just take some time to elaborate on my mentioning of Bad Faith arguing as a LOT of that has been happening both in forum threads and the discord, to an extent I have not seen before in terms of just how much unproductive discussion has been happening and encouraged. I'm not trying to say that people have to be complete masters of arguing or anything, but the level of disrespect and straight up rudeness is thats been happening in the discord is something I really feel should be talked about. The tera discussions were largely focused around people just insisting they were right and not being willing to actually have discussions about why they felt the way they did, or engaging in good faith with the people who disagreed. When the idea of a Zacian ban would be mentioned multiple people would divert to "but *insert multiple mons* become broken" while simultaneously claiming that a teraless meta would have no such issues and be balanced. These discussions were almost always allowed to get out of hand and turned into just generally being rude and calling names and these weren't really well managed at all. The same thing has been happening recently with a huge swell of arguing about the recent spidops spam on ladder turning into name calling and a lot of rude and condescending behaviour in general. I hope that going forwards people are able to talk to each other in a more kind/understanding manner and that when the conversations get out of hand the mods are more willing to step in and try and get the conversations under control, and that the council wont add their own vitriol to the mix all while action is still not being taken. It doesnt help create productive conversation about the tier which in my opinion the council should strive to do. Honestly while I have really enjoyed my time so far in this community, I'm still disappointed at how both action is being taken on the tier and how discussion is being handled and moderated- it has just fueled the indecision, stagnation, and overall decline of this metagame when this all could easily be avoided by people being able to actually talk to each other.

Ultimately, I do not see a reason why Zacian should not be suspected right now. I believe that if something is the subject of this much division and community discussion, it should be in everyone's favour to argue that a suspect should happen, and i especially direct this to the council because this should not be a decision made just by what individual council members think should/shouldnt be banned, this should be a decision based off of community input. I have been vocal about the fact that despite the fact I think a tera suspect would have been pointless that I would have been in favour of one because of the division around the topic and community support around action in general had it not been for the recent announcement. We have a system in place to help give us certainty on what to act on, and refusing to allow a suspect to happen on the presumed grounds that there are people who don't want a given result to happen feels like a complete misuse of the system. While I am a staunch Zacian hater and want to see this thing gone, if you don't I ask that you still support a suspect test and vote DNB on it, because at this point I think if anything this tier needs some sort of direction and certainty, and where we are right now gives us none of that.

Anyways, thats my rant. Thanks for reading, and I'm looking forwards to continuing to play the tier and seeing what happens next!

hey! i read through the whole post and thought it was well written overall. (not to sound like a discussion post), but you make great points overall as to why zac should be suspect tested now. When i first heard about the tera ban ban, i though we would get a new survey since I though not having tera ban as a option would change peoples minds. but a forum disccusion honestly does seem like a good way to have more official momentum for a suspect. anyways, zac feels much too strong and I really do think a suspect test would be healthy for the tier.

 

[Bazingatron]

In terms of whether Zacian should be banned, I believe that Zacian should not be banned. While it is true that Zacian can run many different sets to check its counters, it is unable to stop all of them in one set. For example, play rough/close combat/tera blast ground/trailblaze still gets caught by Moltres, while sword dance/play rough/wild charge/psychic fangs gets caught by Quagsire. While it does put pressure on the builder, these mons would still be run anyways due to their usefulness outside of Zacian.

However, in terms of the suspect itself, I am in support of a suspect. There have been many complaints about a stale meta and an indecisive council. Most recently, this has manifested itself into a fairly large group on ladder picking a new bug each month to push onto the usage stats graphic. While I personally enjoy participating in this trend (go Spidops), this presents one of the biggest threats to the integrity of UUbers. The pushed usage of sub-OU mons in the UUbers ladder makes it so that the tier appears to look like low-level OU/Ubers at all levels of play, including at the top of the ladder. This will drive away competitive players who could help increase the amount and skill of ladder and instead attract the 1000s players (no disrespect, I am one of you) who will play with their favorite sub-optimal mons until they run into a serious player and quit the tier once they realize the actual power level of the tier. Additionally, the spamming of one bug a month has divided the community, which runs the risk of further conflict and potentially some of our most dedicated players leaving the tier. A suspect would encourage players to tighten up their teambuilding to meet reqs as well as provide hope that the tier can be enjoyed without forcing bugs onto the usage stats graphic.

Besides addressing the issue of stale metas, a suspect would boost activity on ladder and in the community, as seen in Gen 8 UUbers with the Nagadel suspect increasing activity in the Discord server. Even if most of the players leave after meeting reqs, there is still potential for new players to permanetly join the tier.

TL;DR: I do not think Zacian should be banned, but it should be suspected.

 

[FishyRoads]

In terms of whether Zacian should be banned, I believe that Zacian should not be banned. While it is true that Zacian can run many different sets to check its counters, it is unable to stop all of them in one set. For example, play rough/close combat/tera blast ground/trailblaze still gets caught by Moltres, while sword dance/play rough/wild charge/psychic fangs gets caught by Quagsire. While it does put pressure on the builder, these mons would still be run anyways due to their usefulness outside of Zacian.
.

isn't the fact that it can pick and choose it's counters inherently unhealthy though? i get the idea the mons are still useful but it is unreasonable to have to use both Moltres and Quagsire on the same team to anwser the same Poké, there's also the fact that in the odd case you do bring both you guess wrong and lose a full Pokémon while you had a full counter, another question is, what if it's running both Wild Charge AND Trailblaze? both of your "Checks" to the Pokémon died to a not very unreasonable set, one may say that "oh but then it loses to the steels" but the steels lose to the standard zacian set, it's this guess the set game where the Zacian user is always in control of, one can argue that you could deduce the Zacian set based on the Team's structure, but that fails when you realize that a mere item change (as i listed in my post) is enough to change the counterplay of it, Boots, Lum, Life Orb, all of them are very distinct on what anwsers them

 

[Bazingatron]

isn't the fact that it can pick and choose it's counters inherently unhealthy though? i get the idea the mons are still useful but it is unreasonable to have to use both Moltres and Quagsire on the same team to anwser the same Poké, there's also the fact that in the odd case you do bring both you guess wrong and lose a full Pokémon while you had a full counter, another question is, what if it's running both Wild Charge AND Trailblaze? both of your "Checks" to the Pokémon died to a not very unreasonable set, one may say that "oh but then it loses to the steels" but the steels lose to the standard zacian set, it's this guess the set game where the Zacian user is always in control of, one can argue that you could deduce the Zacian set based on the Team's structure, but that fails when you realize that a mere item change (as i listed in my post) is enough to change the counterplay of it, Boots, Lum, Life Orb, all of them are very distinct on what anwsers them

I get what you are saying, but I feel like the best counter to this argument is to look at the Arceus-es, especially Arc poison. Arc poison can run a special poison set, a physical poison set, an earthquake and extreme speed set, or pop a tera to mimic an entirely different Arceus. While it is true that Arceus-poison cannot change its item the way Zacian can, it still has the ability to run different sets to check its counters, and it does not receive the same level of opposition that Zacian does. I believe this is due to Zacian being faster and having higher attack off rip, making it harder for the opponent to set up a counter mid-match. Either way, I will still support you wanting action taken on Zacian.

 

[Finchely]

I get what you are saying, but I feel like the best counter to this argument is to look at the Arceus-es, especially Arc poison. Arc poison can run a special poison set, a physical poison set, an earthquake and extreme speed set, or pop a tera to mimic an entirely different Arceus. While it is true that Arceus-poison cannot change its item the way Zacian can, it still has the ability to run different sets to check its counters, and it does not receive the same level of opposition that Zacian does. I believe this is due to Zacian being faster and having higher attack off rip, making it harder for the opponent to set up a counter mid-match. Either way, I will still support you wanting action taken on Zacian.

Quickly responding to this b4 my actual big post. The issue with Zacian is its ability to immediately plow through teams if it has a good matchup, vs Arceus-Poison who is almost always going to have a difficult time vs Giratina which is on almost every team.

 

[FishyRoads]

I get what you are saying, but I feel like the best counter to this argument is to look at the Arceus-es, especially Arc poison. Arc poison can run a special poison set, a physical poison set, an earthquake and extreme speed set, or pop a tera to mimic an entirely different Arceus. While it is true that Arceus-poison cannot change its item the way Zacian can, it still has the ability to run different sets to check its counters, and it does not receive the same level of opposition that Zacian does. I believe this is due to Zacian being faster and having higher attack off rip, making it harder for the opponent to set up a counter mid-match. Either way, I will still support you wanting action taken on Zacian.

The clear difference with this is that while, yes, Arceus Poison has absolutely insane set variety, it has a very clear anwser to about 95% of them in Giratina, and those that do not lose to Giratina aren't necessarily luring it in and just destroying as Zacian does to it's own checks, it is also much easier to tell what an Arceus-Poison is and what it's checks are at preview than Zacian.

 

[Bazingatron]

Quickly responding to this b4 my actual big post. The issue with Zacian is its ability to immediately plow through teams if it has a good matchup, vs Arceus-Poison who is almost always going to have a difficult time vs Giratina which is on almost every team.

The clear difference with this is that while, yes, Arceus Poison has absolutely insane set variety, it has a very clear anwser to about 95% of them in Giratina, and those that do not lose to Giratina aren't necessarily luring it in and just destroying as Zacian does to it's own checks, it is also much easier to tell what an Arceus-Poison is and what it's checks are at preview than Zacian.

I forgot about Giratina. I can get behind a Zacian ban now, it really does have no solid counter it cannot check.

 

[Poosh_i]

I forgot about Giratina. I can get behind a Zacian ban now, it really does have no solid counter it cannot check.

 

[Finchely]

Alr chat I finally have time to weigh. Let's see how much she yaps this time, cause hoo boy it'll be a long one.

For starters, I do not think that Zacian is necessarily broken by the standard that I hold this tier to. It's very strong for sure, but it carries too many faults for me to decisively say that Zacian is powerful beyond recourse. However, I do think that it is at the very least deserving of a suspect, given that the result will simply just depend on what the community actually judges it to be.

For the record, I do believe that Zacian is a little too much to handle, but i'll get into that later.

If asked what the primary issue plaguing Ubers UU is right now, I would answer that it is our threat saturation. Currently, we have an incredibly varied number of offensive threats in the tier, and it is very difficult to handle them all. Another particular nuance to this issue, is that there is a general lack of stable defensive cores in this tier. Right now it's impossible to have a reliable matchup into the offensive metagame with just 3 defensive Pokemon. This, I believe, is the biggest reason that balance teams are currently suffering in the current meta. As such, we've seen teams trend more and more towards offense, which leans into the lack of defense and subsequently makes up for it with offense. Conversely, we've also been seeing a notable rise in stall lately, due to its unique ability to reliably defend against the offensive metagame, as a result of its forgoing of all offensive pressure. This trend of the meta shifting away from balance, and instead towards both ends of the team archetype spectrum, is one that we've seen in previous iterations of the metagame, but is something we've never truly addressed due to the fact that the issue would get resolved by a new drops and subsequent metagame development. People have taken this stance in their arguments, that the same might happen again and things might work out. This, in my opinion, is a terrible stance to take. It is theorized that we might soon get Skeledirge which could act as a Zacian check, but I view this argument as completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. As high as our power-level is, we exist as a lower tier to Ubers, and the options in our meta are directly tied to the whims of the Ubers playerbase, a meta that our actions have no bearing on. The relationship is a one-way street. We cannot ever tier our metagame in hopes that it will align with Ubers, and instead must simply deal with the hand we are given. To wait is to give up on the integrity of the usage-based tiering, and ignore the duty we have as members of a Smogon metagame. That is, our duty to responsibly and actively engage with the community in order to create a more perfect metagame.

But I digress.

A bit earlier, I stated that my primary issue with the current metagame is the threat saturation, and the difficulty in being able to prepare for all that the tier has in store. The more specific issue here however, is one of team matchup variance. I accept that there will always been an element of matchup variance in a metagame, but I believe that there is currently more than what is desirable. Especially as it pertains to Zacian. Zacian feels like the current chief most offender of this issue, due to the way it has so much set variance. While they all are ok on their own, and none of them terribly get around the issues that Zacian has, but the fact that they all exist simultaneously within the same metagame makes them feel very unpleasant to try and handle.

A few of the arguments I have heard of in defense of Zacian amount to the fact that it is such an integral part of our metagame, for its ability to hold back Pokemon such as Arceus-Dark and Palkia-O. My issue with this take is that it's a non-answer to the actual situation at hand, that Zacian is difficult to deal with. If Arceus-Dark is broken in the wake of a potential Zacian ban, we ban Arceus-Dark as well. Those two in particular are already slightly provocative in their own right anyways, with Arceus-Dark's incredible capability to nullify many forms of defensive counterplay with CM Taunt, as well as even circumvent Zacian with CM Wisp, and Palkia-O's sheer wallbreaking ability. My point is to say that we shouldn't be trying to preserve problematic elements, and should be trying to remove them instead.

The bottom line, is that I believe something should happen, since the current position in the metagame is awkward. If a Zacian suspect gets taken off the table, I still think that we should train our eyes on any other undesirable aspects of the metagame.

 

[avaluggsimp]

As Fishy said, my main problem with Zacian is the fact that it can pick and choose its counters almost perfectly. Trailblaze, play rough, wild charge, sub, psyfangs, cc, paired with hdb or the multitude of less common items give it so much versatility that it can be awful to play against. Usually it is just unreasonable for you to be able to maintain your checks/counters to any given set throughout a game, and usually it comes down to hoping you hedged your bets on the right one, else it's gg.

I would be in favour of a Zacian suspect. Its aforementioned set variety and blistering speed tier have forced a lot of offense into the meta, to an unfun degree in my opinion. "Break them faster and stronger than they can break you" is the sentiment I've seen a lot on ladder, with ho archetypes like webs, sun, and to a lesser extent, screens, becoming much more popular recently. While I don't think this is entirely Zacian's fault, it definitely kickstarted the problem. Balance and bulky offense teams at the moment have to pack multiple checks to Zacian as well as commit multiple teras on different mons to feel comfortable against it (examples include Moltres with teras to avoid Wild Charge, air balloon Pecharunt, or clunky scarf users that can revenge it). If Zacian were to be banned, these teams would be able to commit more resources towards other threats like Gouging Fire, Arceus forms, and consider other niche options such as Kyurem-White and Palkia-Origin.

Extra: I think there is some debate to be had about the nature of our bans and suspects, however. Tera was never realistically going to happen, but imo, Zacian is much more likely to have actual action taken against it. Looking at it from an Ubers tiering perspective (given that we are technically an Ubers format), mons comparable to Zacian are not rare there. Koraidon is the best example. Though having less set variety than Zacian, they are both pokemon that depending on the set, can fully sweep if given a free turn or predict a switch correctly. Ubers has a higher tolerance for centralisation than what we've seen out of this meta and its community (no shade, just an observation), so I think the result of this discussion will form the basis for UUbers' tier identity.

TLDR: Zacian can get away with running any move under the sun, and slower teams that aren't stall dont have the team space to deal with it + other threats in the tier, so offense is much stronger.

PS:

This pokemon is not real, please take your medication.

 

[FishyRoads]

are we just gonna ignore that Zacian is not only our best Fairy and our best Ground but also our best Fire?

 

[KineSquared]

I don't have paragraphs and paragraphs to add to this discussion other than saying it feels like you can never build a super solid zacian answer into your team. Quag gets subbed or trailblazed or choice banded on, donbozo gets worn down, bronzong gets tera fired, and none of these would be any good if it weren't for checking zacian. Yes quag can technically do stuff to physical arc-poison but you'd never run it for just that. I would vote yes on a suspect if I qualified, which to me means I'd also want a suspect.

 

[Terracotta]

Hello there , not a lot of people know me for playing this but I will just give a really fast opinion based on what I experienced in the few months I had fun with the tier. Right now I would totally want to see a zacian suspect and possibly a ban , not because the Mon is broken by any standard, as it is just a really strong breaker but depending on the set and item it might be totally deadweight some matchups or win others at preview. What was already said but I wanna repeat is that zacian right now needs to be checked in 2/3 different ways in every team one being a standard response one being a strong prio or scarfer that can kill him from around 60% HP and one being an emergency tera somewhere to trade. This in conjunction with the multitude of offensive treads we have in the tier right now makes really hard to make an overall solid team and makes the pressure in the builder really big, infact it forces the builder not just to accept a bad matchup but generally just to accept an instant lose to x thread or to just bring offense and tryna to win faster. It's really late and I had some drinks so I am sorry if my English wasnt too clear but yeah i really think an action is needed

 

[Qbking3]

Imma pitch my thoughts on Zacian in the current meta.

A few things that I think everyone agrees on are as follows: Zacian is an extremely strong breaker that can bypass any of its individual checks with coverage. Not all of the checks can be covered at once in a single set.

Whether or not you think Zacian is a problem comes down to if you think that kind of interaction is unhealthy. Personally, I think that being able to cherry pick your checks is inherently unhealthy. Wild Charge, Tera Blast, Psychic Fangs, even Substitute all take a mon that would otherwise be a good answer to it and says nuh uh. This forces a meta where you need at least 2 answers on every team. The other top physical threats Arc Poison and Goiging Fire unfortunately don’t always have overlapping checks (best example is Giratina for Arc Poison) and this puts the meta in an unhealthy chokehold. This forces teams to go either in the Offense to HO range because the best defense is a good offense in this tier, or Stall because it can pile on enough checks to not care about the doggo. This leads to another issue where Stall is kinda matchup fishy, HO is kinda matchup fishy (especially Sun), and balance is kinda just sitting in limbo. I should also say that when we start reporting to things like BRONZONG then it’s a problem. I know it’s not being used much at all but I think it kinda shows how far the problem has gotten.

The arguement that future tier shifts can save us is stupid that’s not how tiering works so I’m not even gonna give that the time of day to talk about.

A thought process of mine that I have changed recently is that Zacian can’t be banned because it keeps too many mons in check. If Arc Dark, Roaring Moon, or Palkia-O are broken without Zacian then we just ban those afterward. I don’t know why it took me so long to accept that.

With Tera and Tera Blast suspects off the table, a Zacian suspect is in order. A Zacian suspect is the most reasonable of those three anyway even if they weren’t off the table.

 

[BigFatMantis]

With Tera and Tera Blast suspects off the table, a Zacian suspect is in order. A Zacian suspect is the most reasonable of those three anyway even if they weren’t off the table.

Just want to quickly note a Tera Blast suspect is not off the table. It's not happening rn for sure, but it's not totally off the table for the future.