Metagame SV Ubers UU Metagame Discussion (Zacian Ban @ Post #671)

FishyRoads said:
Completely disagree here, this tier was never dominated by a centrally OU playerbase, most of the early people were simply inhabitants of stunfisk, the great majority of proper competitive players we have gotten are Ubers players that came by later on. Also note that the average OU player that might play this meta from time to have not been getting suspect reqs as you can see through the people who got them over our past suspects.
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This is a fair assessment, I'm an outsider so I'm probs just out of touch that was just my thoughts bc I saw a lot of pro-Zacian stuff and a lot of disappointment, and I felt like there may be a correlation there
 
ant4456 said:
Ngl idk what some of Zacian Squad expected, I would consider myself an outsider and here's the gist IMO:

-This is a tier that was literally made up (conceptually) by OU players for OU players who had wet dreams about playing OU + Magearna (to them it is OUBL)

-Then you have the Ubers heads who want it to be tiered like Ubers (so Ubers UU), (a lot of the vocal people you see in these threads are this category)

-There are a kazillion more OU players (of various skill) than Ubers players.

Ubers has always been and will always be significantly more niche because the way it is tiered is simply less appealing to a general audience (and that isn't a knock against it, that's fine)

-Tiering results are always going to look more like OU shit than Ubers shit.

Reading the Zacian thread every argument against it being banned is basically that it's broken except that it isn't because technically you can out-offense it and it doesn't remove skill, which is an argument which works to defend Ubers shitters like Calyrex-Shadow in SWSH. But most of the people playing this tier, by the nature of what it is and the history of the concept, would NEVER, EVER have fucked w/ shit like Caly Shadow in SWSH Ubers. For the vast majority of people who came here for OUBL, they'll vote like it's OUBL, and due to that it'll remain OUBL. In fact I think if there was a vote to kill Ubers usage effecting the OU mons in Ubers (ie. Lando T in UUbers) would probably pass with like 90%+.
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this tier was made by some guy on reddit wanting to use dialga
it was then populated by most of these reddit people wanting to use their own favourite legendary
then (around chompy's first video) a few more serious players arrived for various reasons
after becoming official (or just before) lots of the ubers/ou players joined and thus begun the conflict in this identity.

anyway on zacian, whats done is done, but the defensive counterplay was there; moltres, zapdos, alomomola, solgaleo and magearna force tera, lugia, terapagos, unaware trio of clef, quag and dozo. not many of these are hard stops, but they get the job done, zacian is a much smaller problem without intrepid. Revenging was also a viable alternative; deoxys revenged, chi-yu revenged, wshifu and pfin revenge post tera, max pdef tina literally eats +3 pr, the multiscale twins, and teraring on your own front. i, personally, can't understand what made people think zacian was so oppressive when the counterplay felt so diverse, but this is just my own experience with building and playing.

as for the comparison to caly-s in swsh, caly-s in swsh is balanced lol. the closest comparison is koraidon in sv, and i think that they're both fine so /shrug. either way, drawing comparisons to surrounding tiers is fruitless, as this is uniquely ubers-uu and should really be treated as such (and this philosophy also shows why i disagree with certain decisions made.)
 
ant4456 said:
Ngl idk what some of Zacian Squad expected, I would consider myself an outsider and here's the gist IMO:

-This is a tier that was literally made up (conceptually) by OU players for OU players who had wet dreams about playing OU + Magearna (to them it is OUBL)

-Then you have the Ubers heads who want it to be tiered like Ubers (so Ubers UU), (a lot of the vocal people you see in these threads are this category)

-There are a kazillion more OU players (of various skill) than Ubers players.

Ubers has always been and will always be significantly more niche because the way it is tiered is simply less appealing to a general audience (and that isn't a knock against it, that's fine)

-Tiering results are always going to look more like OU shit than Ubers shit.

Reading the Zacian thread every argument against it being banned is basically that it's broken except that it isn't because technically you can out-offense it and it doesn't remove skill, which is an argument which works to defend Ubers shitters like Calyrex-Shadow in SWSH. But most of the people playing this tier, by the nature of what it is and the history of the concept, would NEVER, EVER have fucked w/ shit like Caly Shadow in SWSH Ubers. For the vast majority of people who came here for OUBL, they'll vote like it's OUBL, and due to that it'll remain OUBL. In fact I think if there was a vote to kill Ubers usage effecting the OU mons in Ubers (ie. Lando T in UUbers) would probably pass with like 90%+.
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Ngl idk what you expected the responses to this post would be. I would consider myself an insider and here's the gist IMO:

- Your post was literally made up, since you're an outside, because you have little knowledge on the inner workings of the community.

- Then you have the UUbers mains come and tell you you're wrong

- We have alot more knowledge on our tier and community than you, because we've been here and you haven't.

Your words have always been and will always be significantly more disrespectable because you make assumptions on the community.

- Tiering results have for the most part and probably will continue to look a little more like Ubers than OU.

You're making just absolutely massive assumptions about our community, without ever having actively participated or ever taken the time to actually try to understand us. You're just throwing your unsolicited and extremely misguided opinion at the wall in hopes that it'll stick, but evidently it hasn't. We're not OUBL, and the most passionate members of our community ensure that we are not OUBL. We have more respect for ourselves and the integrity of our tier, than you've ever even thought about giving to us. We'd never even consider having a vote to disregard Ubers' usage of OU mons. And even if there somehow was it'd fail with 0% of qualified voters voting for it since anybody fraudulent enough to actually campaign for it wouldn't have the slightest modicum of skill to attain reqs through the relentless gatekeeping they'd face.
 
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The dog is gone! I for one am happy, and also really enjoyed the tour put on yesterday (Thank you mozonite)!

I know there are people disappointed in this result and while I get why, i'm really excited to see the new direction this tier is headed in as this ban is gonna shake up a lot. With more obvious things like Palkia Origin and Arceus Dark already feeling pretty strong both in that tour and just in my earliest thoughts in the builder as well. I really just hope that this means we will get more direction in what to do about issues in the meta because to me it felt like the past few months have been dominated by no one being able to agree on an issue and even if the Zac ban isn't perfect for everyone hopefully it means going forwards we've established a precedent for how the community wants to handle threats like it.
 
It's refreshing to actually see change in this tier. No matter how this ends up being for the meta, I'll be happy.

I'm also happy that we've set a precedent for the tier. With all the discussions about "is this tier an Ubers metagame or not" I think we've set ourselves apart from Ubers in a healthy way. (Let's be honest, Ubers wouldn't have banned Zacian)

Anyways, excited for the new meta and what the community response will be.
 
Poosh_i said:
0 discussion two weeks post zacian ban is insane, does anybody have any thoughts?
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I got you dawg.

In this current post-Zacian ban meta, there has been a rise in special attackers. Without Zacian around to threaten things physically, the need for physical bulk has become less important. This has resulted in the downfall of Moltres, the decreased use of will-o-wisp in comparison to thunder wave, and mons such as Magearna shifting from phys-def builds to special-def builds. However, despite the shift to special bulk, there have been no particular developments in physical attackers to take advantage of the change in meta, with Arceus Poison and Gouging Fire being the main two physical attackers seen in the meta. There has also been a rise in shed tail teams, but that is presumably a result of unknown metas resulting in people using relatively unchanged HO teams to take advantage of unoptimized experimentation.

As for specific mons that have become threats, Palkia-Origin and Spectrier are the two current front-runners for most dangerous mon. Palkia-Origin runs a Twave/Sub/Rend/Pump set that allows it to threaten mons with high damage and status if allowed to set up substitute. Answers to this mon are minimal, as the few mons that are faster than it are too fragile to be able to force a switch. Magearna is currently set to be the best answer due to its special bulk and advantageous typing, but it would be easy for Palkia-origin to start running Fire Blast in place of Twave if Magearna becomes too prolific. Spectrier, on the other hand, threatens mons through high speed and naturally increasing its special attack through Grim Neigh. The current set runs something like shadow ball/draining kiss/nasty plot/a fourth move of choosing. There are very few normal type mons prominent in the meta at the moment, and the one that is faster than Spectrier, Cyclizar, is done in by Tera Fairy draining kiss. The mon that is best suited to counter Spectrier at the moment is Terapagos with dark pulse, but it does not see much use due to the role of bulky special attacker being taken by Palkia-Origin.

My general thoughts on this meta is that it seems okay so far. There is experimentation with mons such as Grafaiai and Primarina to counter act current threats, but no major developments at this time. There is a mild concern that the only team archetype to see play and experimentation so far is HO, but the rises and drops to and from Ubers at the end of the month should provide a large shake-up to all archetypes that will encourage exploring new possibilities for team composition.
 
Happy day before shifts days! With another big change in the meta likely incoming i figured id drop some of the early things if noticed ab the post zac meta for fun as I think we've learned a lot of interesting things.

:arceus-dark: Arceus Dark and Palkia Origin, are they broken? :palkia-origin:
While this depends a lot on who you ask, I firmly think both of these are not broken. Both of these are obviously still good, but I don't think nearly as demanding as I expected going into this meta. Darkceus is still a huge builder threat, but I've found that more often then not it can be managed without explicitly tooling your draft to never lose to it. It's weakness to hazards, and other chip damage from things like burn, or the fact it can get shut down by paralysis makes it have a difficult time hitting the field, and still a hard time setting up as the darkceus player will have to manage speed ties, or staying alive vs things like arc poison. Palkia is a bit more of a problem, but its counterplay hasn't changed much since the Zacian ban. While Zacian was easily the most consistent revenge killer for it in the tier, the main way to manage Palkia is still mainly focused in out playing it, and managing your speed + hazards to limit its prolonged impact on the game, without zacian it just has a bit less in its way. I'd say its at best the 3rd best pokemon in the tier right now, with Arc Poison and Giratina being interchangeable for the top two spots.

:garganacl::magearna: Balance is back baby! :giratina::deoxys:
With one of the generally strongest attackers that was able to tool itself to beat pretty much whatever check it wanted gone, defensive teams are now much more able to diversify their defensive tools to help manage this metas threats, and with a lot more varying options too! Magearna is now more safely able to choose between spdef and physdef sets as is Giratina, and mons like Garganacl feel more more splashable with its ability to apply such consistent pressure to a huge variety of mons with rocks and salt cure. The offensive tools of Balance are now a bit less restricted as well, with old tools like Lando I, Deoxys, etc still being good but certain tools don't feel nearly as required, putting niche answers to stronger mons is less required and really helps make it such that balance has the tools to diversify how it handles the meta at large in my opinion. As again, I do not believe dedicated checks to Darkceus and Palkia origin are required on teams. They can certainly be put to good use, but not having one does not a bad team make in my opinion.

:okidogi::dialga-origin: Biggest (niche-ish) Winners:iron-bundle::terapagos-terastal:
Lots of mons that had a lingering presence/were falling off are really starting to at least make waves on my own person radar, so I wanted to go over a few of my own personal ones and what I think they bring as valuable tools to the metagame rn! (and no im not going to talk about primarina)

Okidogi :okidogi:
Okidogi already existed pre zac ban as a dedicated arc dark answer with a surprising capability to take on much more of the metagame, and it only gets better with these changes. It still threatens Darkceus, but is able to be a consistent source of knock off that is able to threaten things like Giratina, Terapagos, with the only "safe" switch in to it basically being arceus poison. It's help back by its insane weakness to arc poison as well as the fact it leaves you very open to Landorus, but its utility is something that I think is far more useful going forwards.
Personal ranking: B

Dialga-Origin :dialga-origin:
Once a VERY niche and pretty eh mon, I think Dialga has been set up to take more advantage of its special bulk in a much more specially focused meta as a rock setter and phaser, that is still able to apply a lot of offensive pressure notably annoying things like Giratina, CM Arc forms, Terapagos (which I will get to later as while it was good before for sure I think its having a huge resurgence in viability). It has good merit as a lead still, but is also able to be used effectively as a reactive tool to slow down a lot of offensive threats due to its bulk.
Personal ranking: B-

Iron Bundle :iron-bundle:
Who would have thought that when you remove the nigh ubiquitous speed tier of Zacian that the next fastest mon suddenly becomes more viable? Bundle's offensive tools plus access to encore and flip turn help it be both an offensive tool and utility option, being able to sacrifice damage for longevity with boots or opting for Life Orb to score more consistent damage vs Arceus and Giratina.
Personal Ranking: B+
Terapagos :terapagos-terastal:
Okay, I know this mon was pretty good for a while but towards the end of Zacian meta it had a pretty notable drop off in usage, as it was not able to hold up to a lot of the offensive pressure being thrown at it from all directions. Now, it has a lot more room to run a much wider breadth of sets in my opinion, with its offensive CM sets being good as always but the potential for phasing/maybe even HO lead sets being something it looks to be a lot more confident in now when it is far less likely to be immediately traded out.
Personal Ranking: A

Anyways, thats some scattered thoughts on the meta. Hope you enjoyed reading and I'm excited to see where things go posts shifts, I bet Mewtwo doesn't last a week.
 
Initial thoughts on post-shift meta: It feels so much better with Mewtwo and Grimmsnarl. Hyper Offense feels much easier to pilot now that there is the formula of Grimm screens into mon with set-up move into set-up move into damage. Furthermore, Palkia-O has seemed to be kept in check with the presence of prankster taunt Grimmsnarl, although Spectrier is still very strong. Additionally, terapagos is seeing more play to check Spectrier and Mewtwo, and Arceus-Dark is seeing more usage for the same reason Arceus-Poison is seeing less: Mewtwo. Overall, it is very good that we are seeing a change in which mons are viable.

However, the shift in which archtypes are viable is more concerning. I have only seen HO, Offense, one sun team, one rain team, and one stall team. The addition of Mewtwo as a strong wall-breaker, the loss of Hatterene for sun, and the loss of Dondozo for stall means that multiple archtypes have fallen apart, reducing the meta to an arms-race of sorts where we try to make HO more hyper. This issue, unfortunately, cannot be solved with bans as the issue is with the mons that have left UUbers as opposed to the ones that have joined UUbers. While there are no mons that I recommend to bring these archetypes back, I would instead implore council to run some sort of teambuilding event starring these archetypes, or to promote the Great Cores thread to encourage more experimentation.

As for ladder engagement, between the ladder events and meta shake-ups, the ladder seems more active than ever. While there are still slow periods, they seem less frequent and slow compared to pre-Zacian ban times. Additionally, the userbase seems to have appreciated both a less-stagnant meta and more frequent events. As a result, sub-OU mon usage has dropped to normal levels (i.e. being used for legitimate means as opposed to manipulating usage stats). I believe the best thing to do for engagement post UUbers-Superbowl is to run another event similar to it, but with different events on ladder (say a special day-long ladder rush, or a GXE challenge), maybe a UUbers World Cup. Either way, as long as events keep happening on ladder and the meta continues to develop, things should continue to get better for Ubers UU.
 
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