Resource SV UU DLC 2 Viability Rankings- Update at Post #85

It's hard to find reasons to use Lilli-H when it's difficult to find setup turns, it's not immensely threatening even after a boost, it's strapped for moveslots, and even if you get everything to work out it's gotta deal with Hustle being Hustle. The ceiling for Lilligant is absolutely incredibly high but it just isn't a consistent Pokemon at all and there are significantly better choices for hyper offense most of the time.
I fail to see how this is true..... after a boost its even 2hko ing okidogi which is pretty bulky, outruns the entire meta and can nuke stuff...

+1 252 Atk Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 265-313 (62.6 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

at +1 this is a lot of damage that not a lot of pokemon can achieve esp neutrally... i fail to see how this isnt very threatening, moveslots? what? maybe if dirge was here this wouldve been a diff talk but stabs + spinner achieve the same stuff... and idt ive yet to run into a situation where its a "oh shit i wished i couldve slot this move here" yeah ceruledge sucks but this is every mon.. rotom-w vs gastrodon was very painful pre DLC but we didnt go "well its shit"

Torn-t relies on focus blast, bleakwind or hurricane... that is pretty inconsistent in of itself
 
Sorry, you're right that I should've been clearer on the set.

Gengar @ Air Balloon
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 36 Def / 220 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast

It lives a 0 Atk Treads Knock Off (and Knock is less common these days especially on 252 Atk), outspeeds it, and does a ton with Shadow Ball/Focus Blast. It doesn't really matter that it's weak to Sludge Wave since you're faster anyway. Its purpose is not to be a hard counter to Treads - it's something you can throw in on it, ensure your hazards are staying up, and potentially make progress with.

Re: Garg, Gengar threatens every common Tera type quite heavily. It does a number to Ghost (which no longer resists Shadow Ball), 2HKOing it after a boost. It OHKOs Fairy, the most common Tera type, after a boost. It does huge damage to stuff like Water, Electric, etc - and because it's a Ghost-type it doesn't fear Body Press, so it can afford to boost in Garg's face. Even though it'll rarely actually get the kill, it's able to force out a boosted Garg in this way, which is immensely helpful in forcing it to take further hazard damage and preventing it from just soloing your team. It also obviously can bop non-Tera Garg but yeah it does have to hit Focus Blast.

Hopefully this helps clear things up.
While I get how this set works, if I really need a spinblocker that always beats Treads and Garg, why not use Sinischa? Obviously they're very different Pokemon, since Gengar is fast and hits hard. But Sinischa's 121 SpA ain't nothing. Doesn't need to run air balloon either to do its job. Actually beats those two mons reliably, lives afterwards, and doesn't need focus blast to do it.

Idk, you got any replays of Gengar putting in work? I feel like I'm missing something
 

Lily

is this what you wanted?
is a Tutoris a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnus
UU Leader
While I get how this set works, if I really need a spinblocker that always beats Treads and Garg, why not use Sinischa? Obviously they're very different Pokemon, since Gengar is fast and hits hard. But Sinischa's 121 SpA ain't nothing. Doesn't need to run air balloon either to do its job. Actually beats those two mons reliably, lives afterwards, and doesn't need focus blast to do it.

Idk, you got any replays of Gengar putting in work? I feel like I'm missing something
Most of the time you would just use Sinistcha - Gengar's niche is on hyper offense, mostly. It keeps tempo up for those teams in a way that Sinistcha doesn't; Sinistcha tends to kinda suck it instead of maintaining it, and is a much better fit for those kinds of hazard Chomp teams we see running around a lot. Those teams are, in general, better than the ones Gengar fits on, which is why Sinistcha is higher ranked overall - it's just a different niche for Gar.

I'll try and gather you some replays soon, just didn't wanna leave you hanging on an answer until then ^^
 

Monky25

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
I think the cobalion ranking genuinely abit too harsh, im not saying its even remotely close to being an A+ mon
but B is in my actually unbiased opinion, not reflective of the pokemons actual viability in the tier, it provides far too much offensive and defensive utility to be in the same tier as gastrodon (which doesn’t fit on many teams, hence its b rank status)

the fall of moltres has been shocking, the tier is very hostile to it now with all the knock off users and seeing a pokemon that was once a actually important part of ou fall to the bottom of uu is painful to watch
I think the main reason Cobalion was put into B, at least the way I see it, is generally because it’s just a decent option in the metagame right now that hasn’t really picked up traction to be ranked any higher. It’s a solid Pokémon, with Swords Dance sets being pretty potent at wall breaking while possessing pretty solid defensive utility into relevant threats like Scizor, Lokix, the Ogerpons, Jirachi, Cinccino, Tinkaton, Tyranitar, and a few more. However, Cobalion does come up a little short against the likes of Sinistcha, Tank Chomp, and a few others while faster Pokémon like Latios and Tornadus deter its usage. It’s always brought up as being a fake Steel-type and there are actual Steel-types in the tier now like Metagross, Empoleon, and Jirachi. Also, utility sets feel pretty passive in an offensive metagame and Cobalion can’t compress rocks + SD like last gen, needing Stone Edge for Zapdos while Iron Head to hit Okidogi and have a chance vs Sinistcha. It can rise in the future but with the competition it faces as a breaker the defensive utility doesn’t keep it higher than B as of now. You’re also a little harsh on Gastrodon, like Lyssa said it’s the best Zapdos counter in the tier while blanking the most common Greninja set, possess Spikes + reliable recovery, and blanks a good amount of stuff like Alomomola (which is huge), Raikou, Volcanion, Hisuian Arcanine, and with Tera Poison checks the likes of Keldeo, Azumarill, and Iron Moth, deterring water STAB from the former two natrually. B tier fits about right and would be the lowest I can see it go.

I was wondering why Terrakion is ranked in A- tier, considering its non-scarf sets are mostly inferior to Ogerpon-Cornerstone (due to its speed), and its weakness to common priority such as Bullet Punch and Water Shuriken.

Scarf sets seem to be prediction reliant as well, and I feel most of the userbase hasn't fully explored the mon enough to rank it that highly.
Terrakion’s viability largely stems from Choice Band and Choice Scarf, using its high speed and great coverage to threaten almost the entire metagame. Being a breaker that can bypass Zapdos as well as a revenge killer that outspeeds +1 Garchomp is extremely valuable for teams. As a Swords Dance sweeper, Cornerstone does outclass it with the greater speed but Terrakion isn’t entirely outclassed. +2 Upper Hand with Life Orb drops Scizor and Keldeo after rocks and generally has the very valuable flexibility of both an item and its Tera type. Regardless, Terrakion definitely distinguishes itself with these choice sets that have proven to be pretty solid in the metagame, especially Choice Scarf as one of the best revenge killers in the tier, thus earning the A- rank.

The thread is now open to nominations. We look forward to reading your posts!
 
:Politoed: :Barraskewda: C -> C+
Rain is very underexplored and has a very respectful niche in the metagame right now especially with greninja nuking even resists under it such as ohkoing lati, sinistcha, and manaphy after tera water and a bb boost. Water absorbers are also way less common now, allowing your rain abusers to shine. While rain isnt meta by any means, compared to other mons in the C tier rain offers much more than what they can do even if it has a couple notable flaws holding it back such as a losing matchup into water absorbers and a tough matchup into teams with many water resists (Empoleon + sinistcha). However these teams are not impossible to break through. Rain also has a fantastic matchup into stall with greninja easily breaking through (41-48 after tera water on blissey) and an even better matchup into ho (barra outspeeds most things and kills denying them any setup). I view rain right now as slightly better than psy terrain currently (which is in C+) given how rain mons have immediate power and are not reliant on setup. Of course rain is very gimmicky and not as consistent as other playstyles which is why it is not higher.
 
Last edited:
wow. so many former uu titans are just kinda bad now.

Salamence, Thundy-T, Molt, Talon, Zarude, and poor Swampert too.

Power creep is serious and I’m scared to know what RU will look like in two days.

To bring an actual question to the discussion, what niche does Feraligatr have over other offensive waters like Azu, Gren, and Quaq?
 
wow. so many former uu titans are just kinda bad now.

Salamence, Thundy-T, Molt, Talon, Zarude, and poor Swampert too.

Power creep is serious and I’m scared to know what RU will look like in two days.

To bring an actual question to the discussion, what niche does Feraligatr have over other offensive waters like Azu, Gren, and Quaq?
Not a tier leader, but I think that Gatr has some advantages that give it a niche over the other offensive waters - I'll address them in turn.

:azumarill:
Azu finds its way onto a lot of teams for its ability to hit hard with Huge Power, its rare Fairy STAB, and its ability to check Gren. The biggest issue with Azu is that it's both relatively cramped for coverage (often dedicating 3 moveslots to STAB, leaving it to choose between Knock Off, Superpower, or Ice Spinner) and that it's ungodly slow. Gatr serves a different role than Azu: whereas Azu is a blend between offense and utility, Gatr is more of a sweeper. Access to DD is huge - it solves Azu's speed problem while still maintaining power through Sheer Force + Life Orb. When it comes to coverage, DD Gatr isn't forced to dedicate two moveslots to water moves and can instead go DD + 3 attacks (Liquidation, Ice Punch, and Trailblaze).

:greninja:
The two biggest distinctions here are: (a) Greninja is special, while Feraligatr is physical; and (b) Gatr has access to reliable setup moves that can be effective at any point in the game, whereas Greninja really has one chance to boost per game (given the limitations of Battle Bond). There are ancillary differences here - such as Gren also being cramped for coverage (same issue as Azu, needing 3 spots for STAB and having to pick what counters it) and Gren is definitively better, but Gatr can fit better on teams that lack physical power.

:quaquaval:
I think this is the closest that Gatr comes to being purely outclassed - Quav's access to SD + Aqua Step makes it ridiculous. I think Quav is grossly under-appreciated right now, especially with things like Light Clay still being legal (don't get me started). The biggest niche that Gatr has is access to Sheer Force + Life Orb boosted Trailblaze - it's pretty easy for Quav to get caught up on Azumarill, Quagsire, and the ever-underrated Slowbro. Gatr has the coverage to threaten these options.
 
:Politoed: :Barraskewda: C -> C+
Rain is very underexplored and has a very respectful niche in the metagame right now especially with greninja nuking even resists under it such as ohkoing lati, sinistcha, and manaphy after tera water and a bb boost. Water absorbers are also way less common now, allowing your rain abusers to shine. While rain isnt meta by any means, compared to other mons in the C tier rain offers much more than what they can do even if it has a couple notable flaws holding it back such as a losing matchup into water absorbers and a tough matchup into teams with many water resists (Empoleon + sinistcha). However these teams are not impossible to break through. Rain also has a fantastic matchup into stall with greninja easily breaking through (41-48 after tera water on blissey) and an even better matchup into ho (barra outspeeds most things and kills denying them any setup). I view rain right now as slightly better than psy terrain currently (which is in C+) given how rain mons have immediate power and are not reliant on setup. Of course rain is very gimmicky and not as consistent as other playstyles which is why it is not higher.
I have to disagree, I think rain is not in a particularly good spot atm. Tyranitar and Alolan Ninetales are seeing a lot of usage right now owing to separate metagame forces which makes it challenging to keep rain up. I would also characterize rain as a niche strategy that can succeed despite Politoed rather than because of it. Rain can ofc be successful against unprepared teams but overall I would be more in favor of keeping these two ranked C rather than C+.

I have my own nomination:
A -> A-

I personally feel that Metagross is a touch overrated in A tier. It basically has two viable sets, either choice band or spdef with rocks. CB Metagross struggles to break through common defensive cores, particularly those featuring bulky waters like Alo or Slowking, and only presents mediocre speed control with bullet punch. In my opinion, Scizor performs in this role much more consistently owing to considerably stronger priority and u-turn making it less reliant on prediction to maintain momentum. CB Metagross does have a strong matchup into certain HO strats, particularly aurora veil owing to Psychic Fangs' secondary ability, but Metagross's psychic/steel STAB combo is often underwhelming offensively against the rest of the format.

Spdef Metagross is the more viable set in my view as a consistent switch in to special attackers like Latios and Torn-T. However, the lack of a pivoting move or utility outside of knock off and rocks means Metagross can struggle to make forward progress once it has successfully switched in to sponge a hit. Spdef Metagross has difficulty keeping rocks up against the format's premier spinner in Iron Treads, and is threatened out by some of the format's more ubiquitous threats such as Garchomp, Ceruledge, Greninja, and Galarian Moltres. In fact, Metagross loses 1v1 to nearly all of the mons in A-S tier, including Latios if the set is CM tera steel.

Overall, Metagross is still a good mon, but I think it's viability in the current meta is closer to B grade than A. This could change if some of the previously discussed mons such as Treads, Garchomp, or Ceruledge or leave the format either due to a ban or moving to OU. However, the inverse could also be true if Torn-T or Latios leave UU as they are two of the main reasons to run Metagross at present.
 
I personally feel that Metagross is a touch overrated in A tier. It basically has two viable sets, either choice band or spdef with rocks. CB Metagross struggles to break through common defensive cores, particularly those featuring bulky waters like Alo or Slowking, and only presents mediocre speed control with bullet punch. In my opinion, Scizor performs in this role much more consistently owing to considerably stronger priority and u-turn making it less reliant on prediction to maintain momentum. CB Metagross does have a strong matchup into certain HO strats, particularly aurora veil owing to Psychic Fangs' secondary ability, but Metagross's psychic/steel STAB combo is often underwhelming offensively against the rest of the format.

Spdef Metagross is the more viable set in my view as a consistent switch in to special attackers like Latios and Torn-T. However, the lack of a pivoting move or utility outside of knock off and rocks means Metagross can struggle to make forward progress once it has successfully switched in to sponge a hit. Spdef Metagross has difficulty keeping rocks up against the format's premier spinner in Iron Treads, and is threatened out by some of the format's more ubiquitous threats such as Garchomp, Ceruledge, Greninja, and Galarian Moltres. In fact, Metagross loses 1v1 to nearly all of the mons in A-S tier, including Latios if the set is CM tera steel.
I have no objection for your nomination of Metagross. Scizor is better for banded set and Jirachi is better for SpD set. But I think gross is better on PhyDef set because of its 130 base defense and access to Body Press. This is the set that I've been posted on Team Bazaar

Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Psychic Fangs
- Body Press
- Stealth Rock

You can see Blunder featuring my team here
PhyDef Gross is performing very well, expecially against screen HO.
 
I have no objection for your nomination of Metagross. Scizor is better for banded set and Jirachi is better for SpD set. But I think gross is better on PhyDef set because of its 130 base defense and access to Body Press. This is the set that I've been posted on Team Bazaar

Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Psychic Fangs
- Body Press
- Stealth Rock

You can see Blunder featuring my team here
PhyDef Gross is performing very well, expecially against screen HO.
This is a cool set and one I hadn't encountered before. Believe it or not, I ran into your team on the ladder immediately after reading your post and knew my Lati could freely switch in to the Metagross. :psysly: I can see this set putting in a lot of work against Ogerpon-M, Okidogi, and the tidy up sweepers. I'll give it a try!

I wholeheartedly agree that Metagross is one of the best tools in the format against screens HO.
 

Estarossa

moo?
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Battle Simulator Moderator
C&C Leader
Based on the February 1 tier shifts, we’ve got some updates to be made to the VR. Alomomola, Iron Treads, and Barraskewda have all been removed from the VR due to rising to OU, while Iron Crown, Pecharunt, and Toxapex are added to the New Drops section where they will remain until given a placement to the VR. Ceruledge is also removed due to it being banned. Also, because the role of a physical rain sweeper is now open, Basculegion has been added to C rank as a replacement for Barraskewda. These are some pretty large changes, and we’re looking forward to seeing what developments arise from these as well as many great posts in the thread
 

ThatOneApple

A Bit Fruity
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
First nom of DLC 2 Yay!
:Raikou: B -> B+

Raikou has surprised me with its ability to act as a great endgame mon with its ability to beat up targets like :zapdos: and bulky :Tornadus-therian: and withstand bullet punches from :scizor: due to its pure electric typing, making it easier to clean late game. Its speed tier is also great for acting as speed control in the current meta, getting the jump on the many base 110s like :latios: and :ogerpon-cornerstone:, meaning it can pick off those threats earlier in the game if they have a good bit of chip on them. It also has scald to compliment its electric stab, which is great for getting a cheeky burn on somthing like :garchomp: coming in to block your tbolts. The fourth move is typically tera blast with tera fairy in order to blow right through :latios: if it has been kept healthy late game, or just to nail tanky :garchomp: trying to ruin your day with eq. This does come with the drawback of no longer having free set up against the birds though and does make you susceptible to sciz, hence why you only do it when youre going for game.

Don't got too much else to say abt it, but heres some replays of it from UU Masters and Drewvitational (ofc this meta is different due to the rises but i feel they still decently demonstrate what im talking about)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-743561
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-743873
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2049709338-944fmdlxwfkl8iretgrkqb6y7spjl61pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-744426
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2051034031

Even with the new rises and drops things dont really seem too too different for raikou, sure losing mola is a tiny bit annoying for teams that liked wish passing to it, but it also now has an easier time having teams worn down or wearing down teams itself for its late game stuff. Also, no mola means more slowking, and weather ball shenanigans seem fun on this guy.
 
:garchomp: S- -> S

Garchomp was already a very strong Pokemon being able to slot on many teams as either offensive or defensive staple, Chomp has also been the best enabler of already strong Hazard Stack strategies. In light of recent shifts Garchomp has gotten even stronger. It's an insanely splashable Pokemon being able to perform in a variety of roles.

  1. Rise of Iron Treads
:iron_treads: was the best spinner in the tier and while not perfect against Chomp as it was weak to EQ it definitely was strong against it. With Ice Spinner it could threaten big damage on even the most defensive Chomps and OHKOs on offensive ones and Air Bloon often forced awkward situations for Chomp. Booster Energy Treads could outspeed Chomp after Scale Shot. Garchomps most popular Tera Types are weak to Treads Earthquake. That and Treads was a spinner removing Hazards. It no longer being in the tier makes life a lot easier for Garchomp.

2. None of the new drops want to eat EQ

All three of our new additions have a ground weakness. Pecha has a shot at getting OHKO'ed by +2 Earthquake while Pex just does. Iron Crown doesnt love Chomp MU either

+1 252+ SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 294-348 (82.3 - 97.4%) -- approx. 2HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Iron Crown: 326-386 (99 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 296-350 (70.4 - 83.3%) -- approx. 2HKO

0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Iron Crown: 270-320 (82 - 97.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Tachyon Cutter makes contact.

3. Pecharunt is a new Spin Blocker

Yes Rapid Spin more or less doesn't exist in the tier with only spinner in the tier being Quaqaval who does nothing to Pecha except getting Poisoned and Confused. Its similar to Sinischa with an upside of being less bad into Mandibuzz threatening Poison or Toxic and cutting its lifespan.
 
Also, because the role of a physical rain sweeper is now open, Basculegion has been added to C rank as a replacement for Barraskewda.
Im I missing something cause if Basculegion was placed in C as a physical rain abuser, shouldn't it be the male form. It has a higher attack stat and equal in everything else but spa. Is this a mistake, or is there a reason? if its the latter, i have no idea why

edit: Id get if it was placed there as just a general rain abuser replacement to barra, but thats not the case, right?
 
Last edited:

Monky25

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
Hello UU community, we’ve got a VR update here for you! We wanted to vote quickly to get the new drops (Iron Crown, Pecharunt, and Toxapex) onto the VR before too much time passes as well as adjust for any changes that resulted because of the tier shifts and any oversights in the initial ranking, hence prompting our update. There’s a lot of changes so I won’t write out reasoning for every single Pokémon and instead open the thread for 48 hours to ask any questions about the rationale for any changes that happened. Please do not repeat questions or make nominations in this period. Like said earlier, even with the Garganacl suspect test going on, we wanted to get the new drops onto the VR and as such are aware that the VR might be outdated should Garganacl get banned, but we will tackle that later should it happen.

New Additions
:Pecharunt: to A
:Iron Crown: to A-
:Toxapex: to A-
:Bisharp: (from UR) to C+
:Comfey: (from UR) to C
:Diancie: (from UR) to C

Rises
:Garchomp: to S
:Tornadus-Therian: to S
:Lokix: to A
:Empoleon: to A-
:Hydrapple: to A-
:Tinkaton: to A-
:Raikou: to B+
:Hawlucha: to B
:Mamoswine: to B
:Mienshao: to B
:Indeedee: to B-
:Polteageist: to B-
:Blissey: to C+
:Donphan: to C+
:Magnezone: to C+
:Kingdra: to C+
:Politoed: to C+

Drops
:Greninja: to A
:Iron Moth: to A-
:Metagross: to A-
:Ogerpon-Cornerstone: to A-
:Scizor: to A-
:Slowking: to A-
:Manaphy: to B+
:Ogerpon: to B+
:Goodra-Hisui: to B
:Hoopa-Unbound: to B
:Sinistcha: to B
:Ursaluna: to B
:Volcanion: to B
:Ninetales-Alola: to B-
:Reuniclus: to B-
:Rhyperior: to B-
:Suicune: to B-
:Thundurus: to C+
:Araquanid: to C
:Deoxys-Defense: to C
:Thundurus-Therian: to C
:Incineroar: to UR
:Basculegion-F: to UR
:Chandelure: to UR
:Gyarados: to UR
:Maushold: to UR
:Moltres: to UR
:Tentacruel: to UR
 
IMG_3026.jpeg

What losing Toxic does to a mfer.

I am curious about a few placements.

How did the former tier king Thundy-T fall off so hard?
What caused Raikou to go from outclassed by Thundy in the last gen to outcompeting it?
What prompted Lokix to rise in the VR?
What prompted Alolatales to drop in the VR?
 

Lyssa

is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
DPL Champion
How did the former tier king Thundy-T fall off so hard?
What caused Raikou to go from outclassed by Thundy in the last gen to outcompeting it?
The reason behind thundy-t's big fallout in SV is mostly due to it's speedtier not cutting it. The amount of important mons to outspeed within the 101 to 110s range is pretty high, and some like garchomp and latios, who you can't even really deal greatly with tera commitment aside, make thundy-t a lot more awkward than it previously was. It still has a niche as a great breaker and volt immune, but it's a lot harder to use both compared to it's Incarnate form but also other electric types in general. This also kind of touches into your second question, not only does raikou outspeed threats like the ones i previously mentioned, but also can naturally hit them through some stuff like chilly reception + weather ball which while not common, we have seen before in tournament play. Lastly, raikou is kind of weak and slower to get going as a setupper compared to thundurus-t, and in a much slower metagame (like ss was) thundurus was a really solid breaker while raikou never found a super consistent role. Fatter playstyles aren't really having their best times atm so thundy's big upsides are breaker are kind of irrelevant, although also what keep it ranked.


What prompted Lokix to rise in the VR?
Being as good as it is into any offense outside of psyspam really. Having such a consistent tool into any other kind of offense in such a polluted metagame is a blessing.
 
:Diancie: (from UR) to C
What motivated Diancie's resurgence? My initial guess is that access to fairy typing + bulk + clear body makes it a serviceable latios switch-in, but curious as to the thoughts of others. I do further see that it gets access to some good utility moves (SR + spikes), but it sorta pales in comparison to previous utility it used to get (heal bell).
Diancie @ Assault Vest
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Diamond Storm
- Body Press
- Play Rough
- Gyro Ball

:Bisharp: (from UR) to C+
My guess is that this thing has jumped up the VR due to UU's lack of hazard supporting Pokemon in conjunction with its great matchup versus Mandibuzz. What types of spreads are good players running on this (ex: should I be running max speed ada, some speed to outrun specific threats, or no speed at all)? Additionally, are players pretty much running SD + 3 attacks or does something like SD + Taunt have merit on teams that are struggling to punish recovery?

Finally, I'm really curious as to Metagross dropping. While it doesn't have access to reliable recovery (and Alo going removes its ability to effectively heal), this thing feels like it still has incredible matchups into a lot of the strongest offensive threats in the tier. Maybe I just struggle against this thing (I am an Oger-C and Latios merchant), but I'm curious as to if there are other reasons for this dropping besides losing the Wish support of Alo.

Thanks!
 

spell

of the void
is a Community Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
OMPL Champion
My guess is that this thing has jumped up the VR due to UU's lack of hazard supporting Pokemon in conjunction with its great matchup versus Mandibuzz. What types of spreads are good players running on this (ex: should I be running max speed ada, some speed to outrun specific threats, or no speed at all)? Additionally, are players pretty much running SD + 3 attacks or does something like SD + Taunt have merit on teams that are struggling to punish recovery?
Bisharp @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Ghost / Fairy / Electric
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Throat Chop / Low Kick / Tera Blast

Just enough to outspeed Sinistcha, Azu and some Volcanion creeping around that range, really. Not much else to it but as far as last moves + tera this thing has a lot of cool options.
 
Last edited:
What prompted Alolatales to drop in the VR?
I did not vote on the bigger slate this time around but I can still answer this. Screens in general have fallen off quite substantially as a HO playstyle. As a lead, it can be denied by a good amount. Scizor and Rockpon threaten to OHKO, Tyranitar can remove snow creating awkward 50/50 guesses, Tornadus-T can remove Light Clay with Knock Off before veil is up, etc. The SR weakness is also punishing when it comes to the number of times it can come in to get veil up again. Grimmsnarl suffers less due to Prankster guaranteeing a screen going up (bar vs Scizor BP) + Taunt is nice to stop hazards going up. I think both Pokemon are pretty bad and may as well just be grouped together but that is how the voting turned out.
 
Why is Pecharunt in A while Iron Crown and Toxapex are in A-? Based on the discussion I've been hearing I was expecting Pecharunt to be ranked the lowest of the three, especially considering the buzz I've been hearing about Iron Crown.

Why did Tentacruel get unranked? You'd think that with Iron Treads rising, it would be much more widely appreciated as a spinner.

Why did Magnezone rise? It feels very mediocre to me IMO. Is there a Rain team making good use of it, since it rose alongside Politoed and Kingdra?
 
Why is Pecharunt in A while Iron Crown and Toxapex are in A-? Based on the discussion I've been hearing I was expecting Pecharunt to be ranked the lowest of the three, especially considering the buzz I've been hearing about Iron Crown.

Why did Tentacruel get unranked? You'd think that with Iron Treads rising, it would be much more widely appreciated as a spinner.

Why did Magnezone rise? It feels very mediocre to me IMO. Is there a Rain team making good use of it, since it rose alongside Politoed and Kingdra?
Pecha had a varied mix of opinions voting wise, I myself rate it lower than where it currently sits so I will let someone else answer that for you.

While losing Treads does open up the role for other spinners, what you will find is most teams simply forgo removal or opt for better spinners like Quaq and Donphan. Tenta struggles to defensively check much well and loses to one of the premier setters in Garchomp.

I'm a huge Specs Magnezone fan right now and encouraged the vote on it. With the loss of Treads it is a lot easier for zone to be effective. Pokemon like Torn and Zapdos run Heat Wave a lot less too. Tinkaton is rising up in popularity again, which you can remove safely as well as punish Scizor and non-EQ Metagross. It didn't rise because of rain, but I did make a Dragmag team in the samples thread if you want to try the mon out
 
Why is Pecharunt in A while Iron Crown and Toxapex are in A-? Based on the discussion I've been hearing I was expecting Pecharunt to be ranked the lowest of the three, especially considering the buzz I've been hearing about Iron Crown.

Why did Tentacruel get unranked? You'd think that with Iron Treads rising, it would be much more widely appreciated as a spinner.

Why did Magnezone rise? It feels very mediocre to me IMO. Is there a Rain team making good use of it, since it rose alongside Politoed and Kingdra?
Pecharunt can utilize both offensive and defensive sets, both of which have different counterpart. Pecharunt is a very good pivot which creates momentum for the team.

I am not sure if it's better, or even as good as Pex though.
 

Monky25

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
Why is Pecharunt in A while Iron Crown and Toxapex are in A-? Based on the discussion I've been hearing I was expecting Pecharunt to be ranked the lowest of the three, especially considering the buzz I've been hearing about Iron Crown.

Why did Tentacruel get unranked? You'd think that with Iron Treads rising, it would be much more widely appreciated as a spinner.

Why did Magnezone rise? It feels very mediocre to me IMO. Is there a Rain team making good use of it, since it rose alongside Politoed and Kingdra?
Pecharunt is actually a very strong threat right now with it being on the radar, albeit less than Latios and Galarian Moltres, for tiering action. It’s got absurd bulk and a solid STAB combo + recovery and Nasty Plot allows it to destroy a lot of Pokemon in the tier as it freely boosts while being unable to KOed. Powerful Pokemon like Greninja, Metagross, Mamoswine, and Azumarill are unable to break past it pre or post tera even while Pecharunt is able to outlast many foes like Toxapex, Tinkaton, and Garchomp fairly easily with its status spreading capabilities and being a great beneficiary of Spikes. The recent Garganacl ban helps too as Curse + Earthquake Garganacl was probably its biggest counter. It still can fall to bulkier boosters like Scizor and Galarian Moltres, although it certainly can still beat them, and sometimes it has to use Tera Fairy to avoid phasing from Dragon Tail as well as attain a resistance to Dark-type moves, which in turn leaves it more vulnerable to Iron Crown, Iron Moth, and the aforementioned Scizor. Still, it’s one of the scariest Pokemon in the tier and A rank is certainly appropriate for it.

What motivated Diancie's resurgence? My initial guess is that access to fairy typing + bulk + clear body makes it a serviceable latios switch-in, but curious as to the thoughts of others. I do further see that it gets access to some good utility moves (SR + spikes), but it sorta pales in comparison to previous utility it used to get (heal bell).
Diancie @ Assault Vest
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Diamond Storm
- Body Press
- Play Rough
- Gyro Ball



My guess is that this thing has jumped up the VR due to UU's lack of hazard supporting Pokemon in conjunction with its great matchup versus Mandibuzz. What types of spreads are good players running on this (ex: should I be running max speed ada, some speed to outrun specific threats, or no speed at all)? Additionally, are players pretty much running SD + 3 attacks or does something like SD + Taunt have merit on teams that are struggling to punish recovery?



Finally, I'm really curious as to Metagross dropping. While it doesn't have access to reliable recovery (and Alo going removes its ability to effectively heal), this thing feels like it still has incredible matchups into a lot of the strongest offensive threats in the tier. Maybe I just struggle against this thing (I am an Oger-C and Latios merchant), but I'm curious as to if there are other reasons for this dropping besides losing the Wish support of Alo.

Thanks!
You’re on the right track. Not only does Diancie’s access to a Fairy-typing and great bulk allow it to handle top tier threats like Latios, Tornadus-T, Zapdos, and the super deadly Galarian Moltres especially, but it also provides useful support between Spikes and Encore to its team, not to mention Clear Body avoids Luster Purge drops when it comes to handling Latios. All of these traits come together to land Diancie a spot in C.

Metagross, while providing a strong blend of offensive and defensive utility, dropped to A- due to some notable flaws that can’t keep it up in A. Its lack of longevity, especially with the loss of Alomomola, means Metagross only really fits on more offense and BO teams as playing the long game can result in Metagross getting overwhelmed by hazards and the hits it takes across the game. Also, while difficult to switch into, it doesn’t check much. Across the S and the A ranks, Metagross can only really swap into Latios and Iron Crown as an actual check to them while unfortunately being just a soft check to many mons. These two reasons together show that while good, Metagross doesn’t hold up to the other threats in A, and that A- is a better ranking.

Also, Garganacl has been removed from the VR due to it being banned. I’ll kick off some discussion with two of my own nominations
:Amoonguss: to B: Amoonguss unfortunately has not managed to stand out post Sleep ban with other utility options and generally lacks the utility and usage to really stay a part of B+. It doesn’t really check too much barring Azumarill, Keldeo (watch out for Air Slash), Scizor (+2 U-turn stings), Quaquaval, and Raikou, but another Pokemon like Toxapex checks most of these too in addition to other threats like Greninja and Iron Moth and can pair with a Grass-type in Hydrapple to form a potent core on balance. Cloak Amoonguss was a good answer to Garganacl, but with it gone there’s just not a lot of reason to use Amoonguss and thus it should drop.
:Reuniclus: to C: This mon sucked with Garganacl in the tier and sucks even more with it gone. Poor speed, not enough coverage, Recover PP nerf, and the tier just being much stronger means Reuniclus lacks the capabilities to really boost and win like it did in previous gens. With how offensive the tier can be, bulky boosters in general can get run over easily, and in Reuniclus’s case especially there’s just not much reason to use it over Latios or even to begin with really. It still has a niche with Magic Guard Life Orb sets and Calm Mind sets are still ok, but I can’t really see this going higher than C.
 

MaahirMomtaz12

I COULD BE BANNED!
:Reuniclus: to C: This mon sucked with Garganacl in the tier and sucks even more with it gone. Poor speed, not enough coverage, Recover PP nerf, and the tier just being much stronger means Reuniclus lacks the capabilities to really boost and win like it did in previous gens. With how offensive the tier can be, bulky boosters in general can get run over easily, and in Reuniclus’s case especially there’s just not much reason to use it over Latios or even to begin with really. It still has a niche with Magic Guard Life Orb sets and Calm Mind sets are still ok, but I can’t really see this going higher than C.
I find it hard to believe Reuniclus is struggling in a tier like UU given its past history. I'm pretty sure it has coverage to hit everything neutrally unless Game Freak removed moves from it. And I'm theorymonning that a bulky Tera Reuniclus into a good defensive type greatly benefits it
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 3, Guests: 2)

Top