Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk

Monky25

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With the Garganacl test concluded, I’d like to step up and call for tiering action on the Pokémon that I believe to be the most problematic element in the tier that deserves to be removed: Galarian Moltres. This Mon has been broken even with Garganacl in the tier and there really aren’t many developments that would make it balanced, as I find that the builder freeing up doesn’t really matter when the Mon itself lacks reliable counterplay. For those unaware, Galarian Moltres had an awkward start in SV UU, not really getting explored when it first arrived in Pokemon Home. However, since mid UUSD last year it has been surging in prominence and rising in usage as a deadly sweeper and problematic element in the tier. For the record, just because it was in the tier for a while doesn’t mean it should be dismissed as balanced when meta trends and a general lack of counterplay say otherwise. Furthermore, the prevalence of HO on both ladder and tours leaves many frustrated players questioning on how to best handle the archetype, which I firmly believe to be a Galarian Moltres ban, and with its removal HO should settle down and become less of a problematic archetype. To get this out of the way because I know this will be brought up, Galarian Moltres is not broken by screens and removing Light Clay doesn’t do anything. While it is certainly amplified, the core of why Galarian Moltres is problematic remains, being of how its typing, bulk, and STAB combo contribute to a lack of counterplay in the metagame that restricts the builder into a select few options and leaves Galarian Moltres on top.

Galarian Moltres’s main set is Nasty Plot + Agility + STABS with Tera Dark, as Galarian Moltres’s STAB combo covers most of the tier barring Tyranitar and Tinkaton in terms of relevant Pokemon. This amazing combination allows Galarian Moltres to run a double dance set, boosting both its Special Attack and Speed in one set to become a brutally strong sweeper. Berserk lets it get a useful Special Attack boost if put below 50% healthy, and Sitrus Berry further helps Goltres sweep by not only healing its health but also now allowing it to activate Berserk a second time. This is important for two main reasons that many do not realize: (1) Goltres relies on Nasty Plot a lot less with Berserk giving it Special Attack boosts, which lets it focus on boosting its Speed rather easily against a good amount of teams, thus making the idea of “inability to boost both stats” not too much of a great one since it doesn’t need both Nasty Plot and Agility to be deadly, and (2) Goltres punishes you for attacking it, for if you’re not a super powerful breaker dealing a lot of damage like Ogerpon-Cornerstone or Hisuian Arcanine, Galarian Moltres will eat your hit, regain health, and boost and then take out your breaker and potentially have room for a second boost or just take you down outright. Elaborating into Goltres’s tool kit is necessary to evaluate the dynamics it produces in the tier.

What makes sweeping much more possible is due to Galarian Moltres’s bulk and typing. Goltres isn’t just great offensively, but very good defensively as well. See Mandibuzz, who sits at A tier on the VR in part due to its great defensive typing. Coupled with great all-around bulk, especially a base 125 Special Defense, it can be difficult to really take down Goltres without using several Pokémon to do so which is indicative of unhealthiness. Latios, Tornadus-T, Pecharunt, Sinistcha, Iron Crown, Jirachi, Ogerpon, Kommo-o, Keldeo, Quaquaval, and Hydrapple are all very relevant Pokemon Galarian Moltres can just get past by taking their hit and clicking Agility and taking them out. Even stuff like Garchomp and Greninja which can hit Galarian Moltres super effectively fails to KO it without a boost and are vulnerable to a Tera Dark removing the weaknesses that come with a Flying type. Other counterplay like Ogerpon-Cornerstone is also vulnerable to reactive Tera as well. The only real flaw to Tera Dark is getting dropped by First Impression but the payoff for avoiding super effective damage to facilitate setup AND have a +1 Adaptability boost is still really high.

Moreover, Status dynamics are flawed when it comes to handling Galarian Moltres. As established earlier, Galarian Moltres is pretty hard to KO offensively, and without something like Hisuian Arcanine, Lokix, or Terrakion as a faster offensive check, Galarian Moltres has a LOT more freedom to utilize Nasty Plot over Agility if the main out to it is a status user, like Thunder Wave Zapdos, Slowking, Rotom-Wash, and Amoonguss (technically Stun Spore but you get the idea) or Toxic Mandibuzz and Toxapex, and just break them. In regards to Paralysis, Goltres’s bulk allows it to just click Agility a second time because the Thunder Wave users can’t hit it that hard. Meanwhile, for the Toxic users, they also lack the ability to hurt Goltres, meaning it will run wild and still get like 2 KOes minimum before being put in range of most priority barring First Impression which is of course stronger, which also reflects how even most unboosted priority fails at taking down Galarian Moltres. Also, just as a side point neither Mandibuzz nor Toxapex run Toxic all the time, especially the former due to the hazard situation where Defog is needed on teams and it can’t drop U-turn so it drops Toxic.

To reiterate, Galarian Moltres is very difficult to revenge kill, outspeeding boosted 350s like Booster Iron Moth, Choice Scarf Latios, and Embody Aspect Ogerpon after Agility, as well as being bulky enough to tank almost every unboosted priority move. This is more difficult when it gets so many setup chances and lacks defensive counterplay in general. This means you’ve got to find something that can hurt it while also not at risk of dying. The problem is, as you might have already come to realize from this post, not a lot of Pokemon can do that. We know Tinkaton and Tyranitar stop it, but what about others? Terrakion, Hisuian Arcanine, and Lokix are decent enough offensive checks at best, where they don’t really handle it well if healthy and/or boosted, but they still should count since it won’t always be those. In terms of defensive checks, AV Azumarill, TankChomp, and Hisuian Goodra can stop Goltres, but this comes into another issue. You have to use these Pokemon specifically for Goltres, as otherwise they’re at risk of a +2 attack blasting them, not to mention hazards hurt them a lot. If any of them take a bit of chip from a teammate or come into hazards 1-2 times, they fail to beat Goltres at +2 and now it sweeps your team. This allows unhealthy dynamics in HO to occur; it’s too integral of a Pokémon on the archetype which makes it overwhelming against most teams. You’ve got sweepers like Garchomp, Iron Crown, Kommo-o, Ogerpon-Cornerstone, or Azumarill who can force chip on any of the limited checks to Goltres, which allows it to sweep, while also appreciating Goltres beating their counterplay. Want to send in Ogerpon or Sinistcha to beat Azumarill? Oh wait, Goltres switches in, sets up on you, and if you don’t have a Tyranitar or Tinkaton there’s a good chance you will lose with how flawed other counterplay is. It’s just too overwhelming and really ends up as an overpowering presence in the tier. It’s got limited checks, most of which can be worn down very easily, and its typing and bulk allows it to come in and set up on so much while being difficult to take down. This doesn’t even take into account more developing options like Tera Steel, which while generally weaker than Tera Dark, can help tank priority more easily as well as have better setup chances and notably resist Play Rough from AV Azumarill, making it easier to beat. There’s always situational or in-game elements of counterplay but I find those apply to every mon to a degree and I think Galarian Moltres just generally has a lot less than most.

If you read all of this post, thank you so much, but to summarize I believe we should ban Galarian Moltres. I know Latios is brought up a bit but I find Galarian Moltres is more problematic, as Latios lacks that instant-win potential like Goltres, and it’s an easy way to improve the tier with how straightforward action is on it. I am not even sure if I would consider Latios to be broken and that’s a topic for later because this is a post on Galarian Moltres, but I do find it more nuanced, being that no set is overbearing alone but rather the effect its multiple sets have on the tier is what can break it. With the way the tier is now, I think we should take direct paths in the Pokemon we prioritize and so to improve the tier Goltres should go first and across UUPL we will see how Latios performs in addition to another controversial Pokemon in Pecharunt but it’s not a priority compared to Goltres now.

Before I end this post, I want to say the UU council does not consider Light Clay an issue at all, with screens even being seen as a weaker archetype than terrain or hazard stack, as both main setters kinda suck and screen turns are pretty easily exploited to where they ultimately aren’t breaking any Pokémon. We’re also just in a state where they don’t matter and sweepers like Kommo-o or Ogerpon-Cornerstone are balanced with or without screens, while Galarian Moltres is broken regardless with several members of the UU council supporting tiering action on Galarian Moltres as well. Don’t hold off on supporting a ban on Galarian Moltres because you think screens break it because Light Clay is here to stay and if you think Goltres is broken by screens you should vote to ban it since the alternative won’t happen as of now. No action will happen until after tier shifts but I do not think we get anything that helps deal with it, although I could be wrong. To kick off discussion, I’ll ask two questions for the community to answer, as your responses help us see where the community stands on these Pokemon. It would be really appreciated, especially as a council member, to see more discussion regarding this.
  1. Do you find Galarian Moltres to be balanced in the tier or agree that it needs tiering action?
  2. How do you rate Galarian Moltres vs Latios? Is one broken but not the other? Are both broken? We are aware that Latios has been a topic ever since Latias got banned in early January, and now we’re at a point where it would be great to see community thoughts on the next priority for tiering action. I strongly believe Goltres should be next, but I believe the community should make their voices heard on the change they want to see in UU.
 

BigFatMantis

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I think GMolt, Latios, and Iron Crown are all very strange because removing one is going to make the other two better and that may be a problem. With Garganacle it was pretty easy to ban because there was very little collateral, but I am concerned about the collateral with banning any of these other 3 mons. I think all 3 are semi-problematic, but I don’t think any of the 3 are stand alone remove-to-fix. Latios would probably make more sense to look at first since that could open up more team options to better check GMolt but the same could honestly say about all 3 mons.

However the council decides to order it, I think a suspect test is most appropriate in addressing any of these mons. I don’t think any should be quick banned, but I think Latios is a slightly better target to suspect first given how versatile it is compared to GMolt who is fairly one-dimensional on how you approach it. GMolt is very annoying for sure, but there’s ways to manage it simply because you already know what it’s going to do. Latios can hit you in 4 or 5 different ways though.
 
Do you find Galarian Moltres to be balanced in the tier or agree that it needs tiering action?
I think Galarian Moltres isn't balanced as a Pokémon because it's pretty one-dimensional Pokémon that either setup and deals a shit ton of damages/sweep or just flops. I think the metagame isn't that kind to Moltres-Galar right now with the rise of foes such as Tinkaton and Lokix which are two massive issues for Goltres. Tinkaton doesn't care whatsoever about it and can just Encore, T-Wave, Koff it with ease while taking any hits bar the rare Tera Blast Fire/Ground (which opens massive weaknesses to Goltres) while Lokix just revenge kill it's ass with ease thanks to First Impression. Even without Tera Dark, Lokix can dent super hard Goltres. On the other hand, while on paper Goltres can sweep many teams, it often needs to trade a shit ton of HPs to setup or take the risk to be cripple by defensive foes such as Thunder Wave Slowking, Toxic Toxapex or Toxic/Malignant Chain Pecharunt, like in a real match, most of the time, Goltres need to trade to setup and it's not something it does for free.

How do you rate Galarian Moltres vs Latios? Is one broken but not the other? Are both broken? We are aware that Latios has been a topic ever since Latias got banned in early January, and now we’re at a point where it would be great to see community thoughts on the next priority for tiering action. I strongly believe Goltres should be next, but I believe the community should make their voices heard on the change they want to see in UU.
I've been a loud voice within the UU council (especially on UU council discord channel) about Latios and I'm convinced Latios is far more problematic right now than Goltres and it's just flying under the radar light nothing. CM variants, especially Tbolt + Tera Elec ones are super threatening for so many common teams and Choice Specs is still a pain in the ass to sponge. Latios is versatile af and I feel like it always find a way to fuck you up. It has been a fucking issue for the tier for weeks now imo and I'm far more concerned about this Pokémon than Goltres which only finds its way in HOs archetypes.
 
  1. Do you find Galarian Moltres to be balanced in the tier or agree that it needs tiering action?
Its balanced I think... a team has the power to slot answers to it that can beat it pretty well.. and even behind screens you are still vulnurable to status, fiery wrath not being strong initially, and i will not include hurricane acc cuz i think its a shit argument. Goltres got banned last gen and for what? its ability to fuck over counters and just bypass them with the diff sets it had... rest + chesto, agility + WP, sitrus berry, rest + sleep talk + NP, etc.

This gen we have stuff like tink, ttar, h-arc, dragon tail chomp, t wave rotom-w, azu, haze pex, red card, off zapdos, priority via scizor, lokix, h-arc, etc.

I think this balanced out g-molt enough for me to not really worry on it on the builder as much and most of these stuff can be used vs many other things and arent just specific shitmons or shit tools to deal with only Goltres.

While yes it has great setup opportunities on shit like -2 latios or choice locked latios into luster, has tera options to fuck over many stops to it, and behind screens its fat asf its not exactly smth exclusive to it either.... other pokemon can use tera to fuck over other pokemon (iron moth, CM keldeo, SD scizor, NP torn-t, iron crown, kommo-o, garchomp), be fat behind screens (aka any setup sweeper), and can take advantage of other pokemon (garchomp can take advantage of def zapdos for ex., iron crown vs smth like latios, BD azu vs choice locked latios into draco)
  1. How do you rate Galarian Moltres vs Latios? Is one broken but not the other? Are both broken? We are aware that Latios has been a topic ever since Latias got banned in early January, and now we’re at a point where it would be great to see community thoughts on the next priority for tiering action. I strongly believe Goltres should be next, but I believe the community should make their voices heard on the change they want to see in UU.
Goltres I think should be suspected maybe in the future but i think latios should go... what are its answers on a team besides "lol predict better" ur answers are basically CM slowking (trick is shit for it, CM can setup on it, soul dew can take advantage of that to (sp. def drop -> draco), metagross (hazards suck for it, you still can dent it via draco and the next time idt it can do well, trick is shit for it, and it doesnt really like shadow ball on a predict), AV torn-t (doesnt like CM sets esp with recover since they can heal off knock dmg), scizor (kinda dies to switching out, its an ok stop once but its not good over a period of time), and AV azu (luster purge hurts), jirachi (idt jriachi runs wish protect sooo... trick ruins that set anyway and shadow ball with tera or just a good read into it sucks for it).....

i think ltaios is much more of a problem
 
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ThatOneApple

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Do you find Galarian Moltres to be balanced in the tier or agree that it needs tiering action?

I do believe gmolt warrants action, the tier has a big HO problem rn and i feel gmolt is the main culprit. It just so easy for HO to slap it on and have it either open up a big hole in a team or clean bc you needed to use your check for it to check smth else.

Speaking of checks, the only relatively safe ones are tyranitar and tinkaton, who resist both stabs. However i feel there are issues with these as checks:

:Tinkaton: - If its a balloon variant meant to check chomp, it can no longer do that in the gmolt mu, and thus gmolt easily opens up a teammate just by hitting into a resist. Not to mention gmolt can pair with other HO mons like rockpon and iron crown to force this mon in and beat it down.

:Tyranitar: - This may just be a me thing but... i dont really think this mon is that great. Its certainly no reun into garg deal bc it can actually pose SOME semblance of a threat outside of that MU. My issue with it is that it just feels kinda... weird to fit on a team. Its defensive utility outside of fighting gmolt and sorta iron moth is very limited, which means its kinda awkward to position outside the HO matchup imo. Speaking of iron moth by the way, gmolt can pair with that to force in and get big damage on ttar, which then allows gmolt to go crazy.

(Some teams could probably run both of these to pmuch shut down gmolt completely, but thats an unrealistic expectation in the builder.)

There's also the issue with the flinches, while there are kinda things that can withstand 1 boosted fiery wrath and hit it decently hard back, those are all 1 flinch away from accomplishing nothing and dying. Yes pokemon does have some unavoidable luck to it at times, but the fact that this thing can just kill you with a tiny bit of luck is kinda unreasonable to me. Especially when it can take a situation where a Mon gets 1-2 kills to potentially just turns winnint

Now time for the bug man

:Lokix:
I can understand why some people may believe the HO issue isnt as bad as it seems, bc this guy is everywhere. However, have you considered that maybe this mon is everywhere BECAUSE HO is everywhere. Lokix is not a bad mon by any means in a non HO matchup, but its not exactly something every team wants either.

Not to mention, kix with tera bug can put the hurt onto a gmolt with first impression yes, but thats only against an HO where screens arent up. If screens ARE up,

252+ Atk Tera Bug Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Moltres-Galar through Reflect: 100-118 (31.1 - 36.7%) -- 71.3% chance to 3HKO
Not really a comfortable range to have to get Gmolt to.

This means you have to use defensive answers to wait out the screens, which as previously mentioned can be screwy when they have to deal with gmolt in tandem with other threats, ESPECIALLY if you tend to use kix as your primary workaround for gmolt.

(Not to mention it could also just be psyterrain HO, where gmolt can just tera, laugh at your attempt to fimp, and then send you to the aether with hurricane)

One last thing before i move on to the second question but, while the one set already feels overbearing to me, i feel people arent looking into some of the mix up potential this thing has. One idea I had was tera ground blast, which blocks twave attempts from things like tink, and turns the tink and ttar that normally answer you into victims. This set is tera reliant of course but the idea of it seems silly and funny.


How do you rate Galarian Moltres vs Latios? Is one broken but not the other? Are both broken? We are aware that Latios has been a topic ever since Latias got banned in early January, and now we’re at a point where it would be great to see community thoughts on the next priority for tiering action. I strongly believe Goltres should be next, but I believe the community should make their voices heard on the change they want to see in UU.

Im really not even sure if I find latios broken. The only set that even feels remotely dumb to me is the cm tera electric set, and I havent really seen it in action enough to get a proper feel for if it’s truly broken or not. Sure with the amount of sets latios has, it can feel a bit tough to prepare for, but this large amount of sets also means it provides a lot to the tier.

Which brings me to my next point of why Gmolt should be suspected first. What do each of them bring to the tier? This may be a bit unrelated to whether or not either of them are balanced, but I feel it’s important to note what removing one from the tier does compared to the other. So I’ll list some positives and negatives of removing them.

:Latios:
Positives:
It no longer being in the tier opens would potentially open up teambuilding more due to people no longer having to account for the threat of its cm or specs sets, as certain defensive cores previously too worried about letting it in a too much so that it it eventually busts threw your defenses.

Negatives:
The tier loses a very good Mon that mixes a blend of offense and defense while not being susceptible to the spikes a good amount of teams cant remove. We also lose a nice scarfer, that uses that mix of offense and defense to help us against threats like scale shot Garchomp and an pre battle bond boost greninja.

:moltres-galar:
Positives:
The HO styles that have been going crazy recently get nerfed, as their best free progress maker/hax machine is gone and can’t just get wins for them off of either easily openning holes or just... Flinching through teams.

Negatives:
HO loses a very good mix of offense and defense while not being susceptible to- hey wait a second.

My main point as to why Gmolt should be suspected first, is because by removing it, ONLY HO loses, which is what we want due to the very HO heavy situation in the tier atm. Removing latios completely shakes the metagame, which is something I’d rather avoid unless absolutely necessary, which atm, I don’t think it is.

I think GMolt, Latios, and Iron Crown are all very strange because removing one is going to make the other two better and that may be a problem. With Garganacle it was pretty easy to ban because there was very little collateral, but I am concerned about the collateral with banning any of these other 3 mons. I think all 3 are semi-problematic, but I don’t think any of the 3 are stand alone remove-to-fix. Latios would probably make more sense to look at first since that could open up more team options to better check GMolt but the same could honestly say about all 3 mons.
Quick side thing because I wanted to talk a bit about crown bc mantis makes a pretty good point about it here.

Crown has been under the radar a tiny bit but I do think that it’s worth looking into (maybe even more than latios tbh). It has a decent ability to run away with games with its good type and moves like expanding force in psyterrain and stored power on screens. I don’t feel like going into full detail rn bc Ive spent a good while typing this whole thing but I just wanted to say crown is potentially worth looking into.
 
I think Molt-G and Latios are both broken, but for wildly different reasons. I'll try to illustrate the differences between how these two things are broken, but I believe they are nonetheless broken.

I’ve spent a considerable amount of time opining on my tiering philosophy: while any attempt to sort all Pokemon into only a handful of categories certainly appears futile, I think even the practice of doing so can be helpful when deciding what Pokemon should stay in a tier and which should be removed via council and/or community action.

For the purposes of this thought experiment, there are two main categories: broken and not broken. This distinction is not particularly helpful. The real value of this exercise comes upon the definition of two subgroups of broken: broken by design and broken by context. These genres will be discussed in turn.

Pokemon who are broken by design (“BBD”) do not have reliable answers in their given tier. This can sometimes be straightforward (see: Terrakion dropping into PU in February 2024). BBD Pokemon pretty easily overpower the standard answers of the metagame and, despite player innovation, have no legitimate answers in the tiers below them. There are a number of factors to consider when assessing whether a Pokemon meets the BBD threshold, including: (1) whether a Pokemon’s conventional sets lack switch ins; (2) whether a Pokemon can consistently produce results on a game to game basis, thereby evading matchup variance; (3) whether a Pokemon has the ability to overcome its common counters without substantial trouble; (4) whether a Pokemon has the ability to survive its checks attacks and/or sustain itself longer than its checks can remain in the game; and (5) whether a Pokemon has such variety in its sets that a player cannot reasonably teambuild against it without compromising their matchup against the remainder of the metagame. These factors are non-exhaustive and no one factor is dispositive - they merely represent a framework by which players can begin determining a Pokemon’s brokenness.

Pokemon who are broken by context (“BBC”) (lol) do have reliable answers in their given tier. What makes these Pokemon broken is that their answers are so outclassed in comparison to the rest of the metagame that a player actively harms the integrity of their team against the rest of the metagame by including counters to the Pokemon in question. BBC Pokemon force teambuilders into objectively bad options to counter them - a concept sometimes referred to as “teambuilding pressure.” In comparison to BBD Pokemon, the analysis for determining whether a Pokemon meets the BBC threshold is far more streamlined. In my view, players must ask whether the answers to the Pokemon in question lack secondary value. Put another way, BBC Pokemon force teambuilders into using answers who are otherwise nearly useless or provide sparse utility to the rest of the team beyond stopping the Pokemon in question.

BBC Pokemon, therefore, are oftentimes more difficult to ban and require more precise tiering action in order to be dealt with effectively. This BBC Pokemon discussion goes to say that determining whether a BBC Pokemon is broken is a much more difficult task and, in my view, depends squarely upon the status of other metagame threats and the ability to fit the BBC Pokemon’s answers onto your team.

Do you find Galarian Moltres to be balanced in the tier or agree that it needs tiering action?

Molt-G is problematic in UU, even though we know what it is going to do at team preview nearly 100% of the time. The issue with Molt-G is not that it has such variance in its sets that it is difficult to counter - hell, I'm not even sure it has two viable sets. Rather, Molt-G's counters are pretty explicit but nonetheless are easily worn down.

Molt-G isn't clearly broken, however: there are plenty of games (both on ladder or in tour) where Molt-G flops pretty hard. It's susceptible to status, it can't usually afford to anything besides dual STAB, and it doesn't really have a way to straight overpower Tinkaton. My issue with Molt-G, however, is that its counters struggle to provide value outside of shutting down Molt-G. Tinkaton surely has ancillary utility, but it just gets threatened by the tier's best threats a little too hard to be reliable. Further, it lacks recovery and can pretty easily be worn down throughout the course of the game. Even Tyranitar has some of these issues (namely lack of recovery and susceptibility to getting worn down) while still struggling versus a number of top tier threats. I would view Molt-G as contextually broken.

I'm sympathetic to arguments along the lines of "well, Garg had the same problem of unreliable counters and you still voted dnb so what is different here?" Plainly, I think that something like Molt-G is more immediately threatening when it comes out onto the field, winds up into a gamebreaking threat far more quickly, and isn't as unhealthy of a presence.

I would support tiering action on Molt-G.

How do you rate Galarian Moltres vs Latios? Is one broken but not the other? Are both broken?

Molt-G is the type of broken that, while I'd like gone, I could actually live with: Molt-G's power is explicit and if you're really worried about it, you can take preventative measures to weaken it. As I said earlier, Molt-G is contextually broken. On the other hand, I view Latios as broken by design. I believe Latios is bbd based on the following five factors:

(1) Latios' conventional set (Choice Specs) lacks designated switch-ins. Metagross and Tinkaton come to mind and, while their existence implies that Latios is not explicitly broken...

(2) Latios has the unique ability to overcome its traditional counters with reasonable effort. Choice Specs sets are free to try and brute force Tinkaton (minimum 54% to max hp+max spdef Tinkaton if you get the Luster Purge drop on the switch-in) while still bonking Metagross (minimum 37% to max hp+max spdef Metagross with Draco, although I'm pretty sure few players run this Metagross spread). If players choose a Pokemon with more sustainable recovery - say, Empoleon - the Choice Specs Latios user may still 2hko Empoleon with Aura Sphere. Players are forced to sell out, even to stop Specs sets: what else can be done about a Pokemon who can reasonably run four other sets, viably? (notably: Calm Mind+Recover; Calm Mind + 3 attacks; Agility+Recover+Boltbeam; Choice Scarf). The combination of these sets feeds into the further problem, which is that...

(3) Latios' array of sets mean that it is consistent on a game to game basis. Compare this to Molt-G: if the opponent runs Tinkaton, you're going to have a tough time; if they don't, you're probably going to steamroll them. Latios has no defined counters: it picks what counters it and allows the rest of Latios' team to mold to its image. This tailoring allows Latios to perform extremely consistently on a game to game basis, making it such a consistent threat that sometimes it is just easier to throw your hands in the air, sac something, and pray you revenge it. Even this revenging strategy can be a problem, because...

(4) Latios has the ability to survive and/or sustain away its checks and last longer than its checks can. Given, this is more of an advantage to non-choiced sets, but to me the argument still stands: Latios' access to Recover + Tera means that it can bend itself to minimize damage from priority and heal off damage from things that look to pick it off. This advantage stretches even to Latios' counters: things like Empoleon (without Ice Beam) outright lose to CM + Recover. There's just not a lot you can do against Latios - when it comes onto the field, you are at the mercy of the other player.

(5) Finally, as briefly discussed earlier, Latios has such variance in its sets that you could reasonably dedicate two team slots into making sure you don't lose to Latios and still get bowled over. Even if you take extreme care to avoid losing to Latios (Tinkaton + Tyranitar, for instance), you're still dumping a third of your team into stopping one threat - I just don't feel as if that's healthy.

I would also support tiering action on Latios (and would, controversially, even be ok with the council just removing this for us).
 
Do you find Galarian Moltres to be balanced in the tier or agree that it needs tiering action?
Weird question. I am not sure balanced is the right word. Goltres is a mon that when you see on preview you know what you are getting yourself into barring the edge cases of unusual Tera Types. What arguably makes Goltres broken it's the ease of snowball which means the defensive checks need to play exceptionally carefuly. It is also however prone to flopping. I find defensive tera to be more of a theoretical concern.

That is a lot of words to say "I don't know". I would support a tiering action if the rest of the community deems it broken.

How do you rate Galarian Moltres vs Latios? Is one broken but not the other? Are both broken? We are aware that Latios has been a topic ever since Latias got banned in early January, and now we’re at a point where it would be great to see community thoughts on the next priority for tiering action. I strongly believe Goltres should be next, but I believe the community should make their voices heard on the change they want to see in UU.
I already made a Long Post about Latios so I wont be retreading the old ground. However one thing I would like to point out is that Goltres and Latios both somewhat overlap in their defensive checks. Tink and Tyranitar end up strained because of how being tasked to check multiple mons and I think that is the biggest issue with the defensive counterplay. Just the sheer amount of strong special attackers with limited amount of special walls.

I believe Latios to be more broken. Its far more versitile, splashable, has more freedom for coverage, defensive Tera, isnt rocks week, much less prone to flopping because it can set up multiple times. I think a lot of teams prep for Latios just so much that it ends up flying under the radar. I think its more problematic of the two mons.
 

Rae

hot girl activities
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gonna answer the questions and also give some general thoughts on the tier :D


Do you find Galarian Moltres to be balanced in the tier or agree that it needs tiering action?
:sv/moltres-galar:

After playing around consistently on the ladder and having run into a decent bit among multiple laddering experiences, I feel confident in saying Galarian Moltres being banned from the tier either through a quickban or a suspect test given the rest of the community's opinons on the mon.

I feel as though it adds very little positive aspects to the tier, outside of being a fun Pokemon to use on HO for. flinching Pokemon down. I can appreciate the defensive utility it does bring to the table for Hyper Offense teams, bringing in a level of bulk and solid defensive profile to help withstand hits, but I do not think that makes the Pokemon a valued member of the tier, and I would love to see it go.

How do you rate Galarian Moltres vs Latios? Is one broken but not the other? Are both broken?
:sv/Latios:

I think Latios is an incredibly strong, and often times forgotten to be a very versatile Pokemon. The most common sets seem to be Choice Scarf and Choice Specs, which make full use of its incredible base Speed and Special Attack from the get-go with Draco Meteor and its newly buffed Luster Purge, which can tear down its checks due to the 50% chance of a SpDef drop. Personally though, I do not think Choice Scarf is a particularly good option on Latios purely because it isn't a great way of getting the most out of it. I think other sets that can be incredibly scary like SubCM, CM + 3a and CM + Recover, all make better use of Latios' offensive potential due to manually boosting its stats while giving Latios more opportunities to break through a team with its added longevity and/or ability to click its moves more freely, especially with the power of Soul Dew.

I do think Latios is a very strong Pokemon, and while I would still like to hold off on any action for now, or at least until something happens to Goltres. I think the potential shift Goltres' absence will bring, HO's primary defensive answers to Latios, could shake things up a tiny bit. I think both of them are on varying degrees of "broken", with Goltres being much more "unhealthy" and Latios being more suited towards the "overwhelming and versatile" category. This being said, if Latios still was to be taken action against before Goltres, I would still be alright with a potential ban.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:sv/Keldeo-Resolute: :sv/Ogerpon-Cornerstone: :Sv/Scizor:

These three Pokemon, from what I have seen, have seemed to have a slight decline as of recent in terms of their usage, and while I feel as though there are some reasons to this, I think they are still incredibly potent options. In Keldeo's case, it faces competition from Greninja, who has a better speed tier and ability for it to make use of, as well as more efficient STAB combo and coverage. That doesn't mean Keldeo has merit though, as its new tools of Vacuum Wave and Flip Turn still make it an impressive offensive option. I feel like its main issues right now are its speed tier, though being rather strong, can not keep up with the amount of offensive options who are at or above base 110 speed, its vulnerability to Tornadus-T and Slowking, and its' STAB moves being easier to switch into. Despite these weaknesses, Keldeo can shred teams with less powerful Water resistances, being able to smash Zapdos, Garchomp, Mandibuzz and even 2HKO Tinkaton and Rotom-Wash. I also believe that more experimentation could be done with sets, as strong as Choice Specs is SubCM and CM 3 Attacks has a lot of potential to work with.

Ogerpon-C is an absolutely nuclear offensive option with solid defensive utility in both Encore and Spikes sets, as well as having a solid ability in Sturdy. Cornerstone I think is another victim of Torn-T prowess, as well as general metagame shifts that have maybe had a bit of an impact on it. This Pokemon, just like Keldeo, is by no means weak however and on the right kind of team it can eat opposing Pokemon alive, being able to obliterate common defensive cores due to its STAB combo, and I'll always be a huge advocate for it, as well as another Rock-type I will touch on soon. Ogerpon-C's Masters' usage was still rather high last week, as was Base Ogerpon's surprisingly, so its safe to say that Cornerstone won't be going anywhere soon, and will most likely be landing critical hits that matter way too often.

Scizor, who probably struggles the most out of the three right now, has definitely seen brighter days. Contact moves right now are insanely easy to punish due to Garchomp being the best Pokemon in the tier with Rough Skin and potential Rocky Helmet sets, and Zapdos being a very common Pokemon to tie teams together due to its ability to check a number of offensive threats just like Scizor, punishing them with its Static ability. Scizor struggles greatly into these Pokemon, as the best thing it can do is pray that Static doesn't activate or hard switch out, which is never a good sign. That said though, this is still Scizor, and after a bit of chip and a Swords Dance, it can still clean teams with ease because of its powerful Bullet Punch and comfortable bulk, able to tank a hit or two in the process. I think that as long as you pair Scizor with something can easily punish these Pokemon like Greninja, Latios and Keldeo it can still put in an insane amount of work.


:Sv/Arcanine-Hisui:

While Arcanine brings incredible power to the table, I have recently been loving the defensive utility it can bring to a team. In light of recent tech, which I think was invented by ThatOneApple, Will-O-Wisp helps give Arcanine a move for it to click into its best check, Garchomp, luring it in and crippling it significantly, as well as the usual option of running Stealth Rock which I feel like can still be useful, but not as good as the prior option.

I also believe that its typing and bulk has a lot of merit, being able to naturally take on the likes of Iron Moth, Zapdos, Tornadus-T and Ogerpon is incredibly handy, and Extreme Speed is a fantastic tool for revenge killing Pokemon that may be difficult to take down without it. My philosophy with teambuilding is always that a defensive option must have some kind of offensive utility, and an offensive option must have defensive utility, and Arcanine-Hisui has grown to perfectly fit that kind of role in the meta.

:Sv/Empoleon: :Sv/Kilowattrel:

These two are Pokemon that I surprisingly dont use quite a lot, but have a lot of belief in right now and think that they could potentially grow to become more and more popular.

Empoleon has a fantastic defensive profile for the tier, being able to handle three of the most scary offensive presences in Latios (because of silly Scarf), Greninja and Tornadus-T. Roost was an insane blessing for Empoleon as it helps it fully function as an incredible defensive unit with the ability to Knock Off items, pivot with Flip Turn, and even set up Stealth Rock or Haze away stat boosts from things like Pecharunt and Calm Mind Keldeo. I think right now it does struggle against a lot of other threats like Zapdos, Garchomp and Terrakion, but I think this Pokemon has more than enough merit to be placed as high as it is A ranks and should definitely be used more.

A bit of a wildcard, but due to some recent tinkering around, Kilowattrel has landed itself a niche within the tier as a potent special breaker. This is highly thanks to its incredible 125 Speed tier, outspeeding the likes of Greninja and Tornadus-T and hitting them for a strong super-effective Thunderbolt or Volt Switch, as well as the ability to really mess with Zapdos thanks to Volt Absorb. Weather Ball is also an insanely fun combination with Slowking, giving it a perfect option to slam Garchomp and Latios with (which can also work on Zapdos!) and Roost allows you to stick around for longer and consistently threaten the opposing team with your STAB combination. With this, I could easily see Kilowattrel making its mark onto the C ranks and potentially inspiring some more unique, niche offensive and defensive options to play around with in the tier.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's all for now! I hope the tier continues being as fun as it is and the future potential tiering action helps improve the metagame even more, and good luck to those competing in UUPL and Masters! stay well and safe everyone :heart:
 

gulch

formerly Melt Gibson
is a Forum Moderator
Do you find Galarian Moltres to be balanced in the tier or agree that it needs tiering action?

Goltres is an odd little freak for me because I've never personally struggled with it, but I can also see where people are coming from. I think that there are some options that people haven't dipped into quite as much (Enamorus, Scarf Rotom-W, Terrakion, Azumarill, to name some) in terms of checking it, but Tinkaton and Tyranitar are by and large the best options. Lokix being everywhere (this being due to HO being as strong as it is, while a valid point, is an entirely separate conversation) also puts a major thorn in Golt's side, as does priority spam in general. I think that, while it can fairly easily get out of hand and accomplish some very silly stuff, Goltres is no different from the vast majority of other HO staples (Iron Crown, Polteageist, Kommo-o, etc). They're all big beaters that set up in your face and start taking chunks out of your defensive core. I think the way that HO functions in the meta right now as a whole is more of a problem, wacko shit like screens, veil, psyterrain, etc is never fun to load into and has become increasingly difficult to keep up with thanks to the hazard meta being vastly in favor of setters.

Despite this, if there were to be a suspect and I were to vote, I'd probably just vote to ban it anyway? There's like, zero actual benefits that Golt provides to the tier. The only real argument I've heard in opposition is that it provides HO teams with some important defensive utility, but that's one I have a hard time getting behind when lately I've been seeing the playstyle in general as problematic. Don't think it's the problem, just a symptom, but I'm also not gonna be malding over it if it gets nuked.

How do you rate Galarian Moltres vs Latios? Is one broken but not the other? Are both broken?

I'm also in the camp of not being super convinced Latios is broken. Tera Electric CM is the only set I'd consider remotely unhealthy, and assuming we get Excadrill next shift, that set immediately goes down the shitter LOL. People talk about how Latios has like 4 or 5 sets, but aside from the aforementioned CM ones, they're really not all that different, and I don't think most of them are even good. Soul Dew is the only real viable option for non-CM Latios in my opinion, there are enough mons that resist and have considerable enough special bulk/are outright immune to your main buttons that being locked into one is more often than not too harmful compared to the benefits you get from it. You're still nuking most shit with a Soul Dew boosted Draco Meteor or Luster Purge, especially when taking the SpDef drops into account. Choice sets also lock you out of being able to effectively run Recover, which I've been liking a lot as a fourth slot lately, especially now that Alomomola is gone. Latios is fine, only really deserves a suspect if we don't get anything of consequence next week. Even then, would probably still vote DNB.

I think comparing Latios and Goltres in terms of broken-ness or lack thereof is comparing apples to oranges, because yes, Goltres does only really find its way onto HO builds. However, I think using that dismissively, especially when HO has shown itself to be VERY potent in the current meta, is definitely not it. Goltres is on nearly every team, not because it's splashable or filling a variety of roles, but because every team is riffing on the same structure that Goltres fits comfortably into. I mean, shit, look at the samples. There's two BO teams and the only one that's slower in any capacity shoots straight down to hard stall. We're in an offensive meta > HO is thriving > Goltres thrives on HO > Goltres is thriving.

------

That aside, I wanted to drop some opinions on other mons, either that I've been seeing talk of, been using lately, or just have some stray thoughts on.

:sv/toxapex:

Not the biggest fan of this? Certainly not filling the Alo-shaped hole in my chest. For what it's worth, Water/Poison as a defensive typing is pretty good right now, Regenerator makes this thing even fatter, and Haze is a shockingly useful Get Out Of Jail Free card. Not being able to realistically do much about Chomp sucks, but there are so many other setup mons that you stuff completely that it's a fair enough loss. Wish you could like, afford to slot TSpikes on this, that'd be cool.


:sv/okidogi:

OKIGOATKI BABYYYY!! SubBulk sets on this guy are still awesome, being able to take advantage of Mandibuzz is a big selling point and Garganacl getting the boot means that he gets way more opportunities to actually do things since you're not worried about Salt Cure or Tera Ghost Iron Defense. Also 4x resists Bug, which means that you're not Lokix food and FIMP can even fail to break your subs after a couple boosts. You do flop into things like Toxapex and Pecharunt, less because you can't really damage them (although this IS a problem), but moreso because you can't use Okidogi's greatest weapon against fat into them (fishing for ToxChain procs). Pex Haze also fucks you up since Sub doesn't save you from it. Good mon though, great Tera abuser and wincon.


:sv/slowking:

The gentleman's bulky Water. Chilly Reception is pretty awesome right now with the amount of things it enables (Lokix, Mamoswine, more I'm sure I'm forgetting at 5 AM), and Scald is never bad to have in case of emergencies. It does have an awkward case of 4MSS now? Future Sight's slot is actually contested since being able to run Thunder Wave as a form of effective speed control against HO is pretty baller, but FSight's offensive presence is also really strong. Still, it's a pretty great option in a lot of comps, double Psychic with Metagross feels oddly viable too.


:sv/tinkaton:

If you told me a month ago that we'd have circled back into a SVUU meta of Tink & Friends I'd have laughed, but here we are! If you want a traditional defensive Steel or Fairy, this is pretty much it. Having a good matchup into some of the most common options and leads in the tier (Goltres, Latios, Torn, Grimmsnarl, AloTales) is awesome, and it still has the same well of utility that it did back in beta.


:sv/terrakion:

I feel like not enough people are talking about this. What do you use to switch into this fucker's STABs? Genuine, actual, open-ended question on this one, because I've not the foggiest goddamn clue. There is at least the silver lining that if you predict around this correctly, and/or it gets some bad luck, it's kinda useless, and literally all of the priority in the tier shits on it, but man does it hit like a freight train.


:sv/ribombee:

Wanted to drop a set on this one that I've actually been liking a lot lately!

Ribombee @ Choice Specs
Ability: Shield Dust
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Psychic / Psychic Noise
- Trick
- U-turn

Pulled this one out for masters vs. pdt, and didn't win, but it put in work! The fastest thing in the tier unboosted, which comes up a lot more often than you'd think it does and makes Bee unironically a pretty decent revenge killer. Shield Dust is just a generally very helpful ability to have, letting you not worry about random bullshit like Luster Purge SpDef drops, Fiery Wrath flinches, etc, and being able to switch into Latios' Draco Meteor or Garchomp's Scale Shot AND be immediately threatening is no small feat. Psychic Noise is a cool option if you really hate Pex or Okidogi, but I generally do just like Psychic better for the higher power and prefer to just use Trick as an option to stop fatmons or random setup bullshit. Can be tough to make work since we have like, zero removal, but it's definitely worth a shot since we have zero offensive Fairies outside of Enamorus.


:sv/excadrill:

please save us.
 
more thoughts on the metagame cause its been a minute


moltres-galarian.png

Honestly, I just don't think this thing is broken, granted I once used its set in OU back when it was RUBL, It can be broken in the right scenarios but I just think this thing is a nice high-tier option rn


latios.png

Tried this thing out after hearing about it, it was VERY good and quickly became one of my favorite mons in the tier just because of how hard it hits.


kommo-o (1).png

Very underrated option right now, it has enough coverage to deal with the entire tier, the amount of sets are still crazy, Clangorous Soul, Dragon Dance, ID + BP, Swords Dance + Scale Shot, Rocks if you're into that stuff, Very fun and by far my favorite mon in the tier.

hydreigon.png

I haven't given up on this thing, I still think this is a great mon in the tier even though it's RUBL rn, Nasty Plot Draco sets are good but my favorite is the DD scale shot set, as most people aren't expecting Physical Drei, hopefully it comes back home to UU.

toxapex.png

this thing sucks (edit: i tried it and it was a big pushover)
 
So a Mon that I feel like is very underrated rn is wo chien.. It has some really solid matchups into several key important pokes most notably latios and greninja. It walls latios decently well though it needs to be careful around cm sets as it needs to stay at high enough health to avoid dropping to +1 soul dew Meteor. Also it sits on green all day unless it's the fairly rare specs Protean which still doesn't immedietly OHKO it.
Its also very solid into chomp. Easily devours +2scale shots and with leech lefties and protect can do it twice and knock the loaded dice off and potentially just 1 v 1 inning it.
Also it irritates all of its switch ins like zapdos and tornadus in particular with knock off greatly hindering them. It also abuses stuff like slowking forever. It has two main sets imo. Standard protect seed and restalk. Both R usually sp. Def but if ur team is weak to say chomp u can run ph. Def. Not too sure how good it is but it's Def at least B- good.

252 Atk Lokix First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Wo-Chien: 268-324 (71.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Ph. Def has some merits because of just this lol.
 
OKIGOATKI BABYYYY!! SubBulk sets on this guy are still awesome, being able to take advantage of Mandibuzz is a big selling point and Garganacl getting the boot means that he gets way more opportunities to actually do things since you're not worried about Salt Cure or Tera Ghost Iron Defense. Also 4x resists Bug, which means that you're not Lokix food and FIMP can even fail to break your subs after a couple boosts. You do flop into things like Toxapex and Pecharunt, less because you can't really damage them (although this IS a problem), but moreso because you can't use Okidogi's greatest weapon against fat into them (fishing for ToxChain procs). Pex Haze also fucks you up since Sub doesn't save you from it. Good mon though, great Tera abuser and wincon.
The Okidogi propaganda lives on!

I 100% agree with Melt here, Sub-Okidogi has been an awesome mon to use this month, for the reasons he laid out (great MU's against Mandibuzz and Lokix, who get subbed on)
 
:sv/terrakion:

I feel like not enough people are talking about this. What do you use to switch into this fucker's STABs? Genuine, actual, open-ended question on this one, because I've not the foggiest goddamn clue. There is at least the silver lining that if you predict around this correctly, and/or it gets some bad luck, it's kinda useless, and literally all of the priority in the tier shits on it, but man does it hit like a freight train.
Phys def :toxapex:, :pecharunt:,:weezing-galar: and :garchomp: are the ones i usually switch into this thing, not saying that :pecharunt: is great outside stall but i'm slowly able to get it to work
 
Phys def :toxapex:, :pecharunt:,:weezing-galar: and :garchomp: are the ones i usually switch into this thing, not saying that :pecharunt: is great outside stall but i'm slowly able to get it to work
These are generally pretty good answers to Terrakion if you can get it locked into a move. As someone who has been spamming Terrak lately, I do want to show that these Pokemon (outside of Pech) are really only good at switching into Terrakion if you absolutely know what Terrakion is going to be going for.

:garchomp:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 306-360 (72.8 - 85.7%)

:pecharunt:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 126-148 (33.1 - 38.9%), but...
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 168-198 (44.2 - 52.1%)

:weezing-galar:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 154-183 (46.1 - 54.7%)

:toxapex:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 135-160 (44.4 - 52.6%)

Again, no hate - these mons swallow Terrakion's resisted STAB, but I do think Terrakion is very underrated right now for its ability to brute force its way past a lot of the bigger mons in this tier
 
These are generally pretty good answers to Terrakion if you can get it locked into a move. As someone who has been spamming Terrak lately, I do want to show that these Pokemon (outside of Pech) are really only good at switching into Terrakion if you absolutely know what Terrakion is going to be going for.

:garchomp:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 306-360 (72.8 - 85.7%)

:pecharunt:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 126-148 (33.1 - 38.9%), but...
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 168-198 (44.2 - 52.1%)

:weezing-galar:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 154-183 (46.1 - 54.7%)

:toxapex:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 135-160 (44.4 - 52.6%)

Again, no hate - these mons swallow Terrakion's resisted STAB, but I do think Terrakion is very underrated right now for its ability to brute force its way past a lot of the bigger mons in this tier
thanks for the context
i wanted to mention pecharunt's vulnerability to EQ and you do need two of those i mentioned to have an easy switch in to CB terrak, and by no means is pecharunt splashable or terrakion easy to beat defensively, i think terrak will become more serious once people figure out easier ways to give it entry points
 

Amane Misa

Bring Them Home Now!
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My opinion might be unpopular, but I think Galarian Moltres is not broken and thus shouldn’t be banned for the following reasons:
  • Each and every playstyle has options for dealing with it. For example, offense has Lokix and Bisharp, bulky offense or balance have Tyranitar and Tinkaton and stall has Blissey. As a result, Galarian Moltres is not restricting, unlike other bans we have had before.
  • Speaking of restriction, I’ve never seen anyone using or even talking about it outside of hyper offense.
  • Unless running some weird Tera type + Tera Blast (which is true for a lot of other Pokemon), Galarian Moltres is very unlikely to break through its counters.
  • In order to be effective, Galarian Moltres usually needs two turns to setup. While it isn’t unlikely for it get this opportunity, it means that stopping it via faster threats is not unheard of.
  • This might be the most subjective reasoning of all the other reasonings, but I’ve seen people saying something along the lines of: “it’s not broken but it doesn’t add much to the tier so I’m fine with it getting banned”. I personally disagree with this tiering philosophy as a whole because then you could argue it’s okay to ban other cheesy Pokemon there’s no doubt are not broken, like Iron Crown, Polteageist, Hawlucha and more.
 

ThatOneApple

A Bit Fruity
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Thoughts on gmolt ban

Pros: This obnoxious asshole of a mon that makes teambuilding annoying and flinches/teras its way through its checks is gone and the tier is overall better as a result.

Cons: Well now how am i gonna cheese ladder to get suspect reqs, i need 1 more suspect vote for tier contributor :changry:

(But yeah screw gmolt lol)
 
considering using Torn-T, is this set any good for him?View attachment 608258
Tornadus-Therian @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Bleakwind Storm

Hasty Nature isn't useful whatsoever. You don't really care to do big damages with either Knock Off or U-turn, they are just utility moves, and you definitively don't want to sacrifice some bulk to do 1-5% more on your U-turn. Tera Steel is probably viable but Tera Electric is overall a really fantastic defensive typing on Tornadus-T (and many other pivots).
 

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