Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk

Estarossa

moo?
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just posting some initial thoughts from playing for a few hours before i go to bed. didn't get to try out quite as much as I would have wanted because was pretty tired but played around with some HO and an offense and balance team. I'm sure i'll probably disagree with half of what I wrote in a day tbh but i'll be interested to see how much I still agree with later.

:tornadus-therian: Torn is still amazing to me, the speed tier + ability to switch into easily all these big offensive threats like Lati@s, Greninja, Hydrapple, Iron Moth, Hydreigon etc is just great on top of it just farming a lot of teams on ladder atm tbh, feels like the amazing glue its always been still.

:jirachi: Wish sets feel nice atm for negging Lati twins and other stuff and supporting other teammates, meta is a bit too fast for it to shine fully through currently with all the HO spam but with like quagsire cores and stuff it can still feel great, should be a really nice glue mon once the meta slows down a little. Nice for non Knock Cornerstones,

:quagsire: Been a fan of this mon for ability to rly aid you in a ton of matchups against offensive threats rn tbh like ceru/coba/chomper etc, I've been playing around with moveset choices on both ib/eq and think i'm gonna try doing ib+eq+toxic a little on some teams when I can move hazards elsewhere, having both options feels pretty helpful for covering like tera flyings / chomper / an option to stop hydreigon completely abusing you without having to use its tera etc.

:brambleghast: :deoxys-defense: :garchomp: :ribombee::sinistcha: Spike stacking feels beyond annoying given our removal options, tera ghost chomper / deoxys can really just make removing so awkward and its definitely a powerful option. Stcha ive also seen being used as always to spinblock and it does it just as well as always while being an offensive pain in the arse, but its definitely got to be a little careful about clanger. I've played a little with bramble as a spiker too, quite enjoying it for spinblocking like treads and it feels like the most reliable spinner into ghosts in a way too. Webs are just as annoying too with these offensive teams and its definitely why ive been liking to try and rely a bit more on my defensive options too like Quagsire because removing them isn't really on the table half the time and these teams are everywhere on ladder.

:latios: :latias: Very much enjoying what they bring to the tier at the moment with their natural speed tier that makes them great brings, they haven't felt oppressive to play around at all for me through great options like rachi / torn/teleport deo, seeing a lot of like scizor and stuff that can handle them pretty decently too. While the tier is so fast its definitely nice to have the speed control but it'll be interesting to see how they interact when the tier slows down, latias definitely seems like it has some potential to be stupid with its stored power stuff potentially down the road.

:ogerpon-cornerstone:Definitely one of the more dangerous things going around from what ive felt, fast encore is a great punisher and set up opportunity, its stab combo is so dangerous and like its coverage is great, free sturdy makes it very punishing if no hazards are up / very dangerous in lead on offensive stuff. The coverage options can kinda neg a lot of its would be answers like Rachi / Clanger too although you can't cover everything in one slot which is helpful at least for playing against it, but its definitely one of the scarier thigs to play against. It's inability to cover all its options in one set and inability to boost its speed has definitely made it feel playable around but its scary for sure. I tried using like Taunt Spikes lead sets on HO to make use of its sturdy and speed combo, but honestly ive felt like it'd rather just attack more and would prefer just playing those SD sets on lead instead despite being a very good spikes lead on paper, maybe this feeling will change when you aren't mostly playing against offense yourself too.

:hydrapple: I'm interested in this thing in a more slowed down meta because its got a really nasty combo of tools with like insane bulk, regenerator, nasty moves like fickle beam / dragon tail / infestation and some freedom to use it. I tried using it today with zapdos paralysis spam and it definitely felt offensively dangerous but it feels a bit too tera reliant if it wants to actually become dangerous right now, if you tera fairy it then its absolutely got a lot of potential to matchup into things but its base typing gives it a lot less opportunities right now beyond just abusing bulk + items like av. Still it could use things like sinistcha, cornerstone, sandy etc for turns without tera or using the paralysis spread and was pretty fun.
 
These shifts are absolutely absurd, so I wanted to give my rough one-liners first impressions

:ceruledge: Same song and dance as before, just with more power creep. We got a couple of new checks like garg, pert, and mola, but no real counters. The higher power level should hold it back somewhat, but it could possibly be problematic down the line.

:garchomp: There's no way this stays for long. There isn't much that can take a boosted hit from it and with scale shot, it can easily run away with games. Bulky waters and deo can maybe check it with ice beam, but it can still break past them with tera. Without skarm or corv around, it seems much too strong imo.

:garganacl: Extremely annoying, but it needs some time for the tier to settle and for bulky teams to be more relevant. Amoong and hydrapple are pretty solid checks, but it's still frustrating to break especially with tera.

:iron hands: We got some passable checks in the lati twins, amoong, and zapdos, but it's partner in crime mola is also back. Definitely not the most banworthy addition, but maybe it'll end up banned for the third time in a row.

:kommo-o: It still has a different set for every day of the week and most of the checks we got to it seems shaky, especially with tera. It might survive the initial round of quickbans, but idt this will stay longterm.

:alomomola: An incredible buff to defensive teams, mola can live forever and is very reliable at healing up it's teammates. There's not really much to say about it, but it's huge for balance and stall, which have been struggling for a while.

:amoonguss: Nothing really new here either. Good bulk, good typing, and great longevity. It has some new competition in hydrapple, but it still seems like a great option as always.

:araquanid: A web setter than trades speed for immediate power. It's typing can be pretty awkward to deal with as well. It's worth noting that it lost magic coat, tho.

:blastoise: Lol. Lmao, even. It's outclassed as a shell smasher and doesn't have the bulk or longevity to spin reliably.

:blaziken: Seems very strong with tera. It's very difficult to stop once it gets going and has the coverage to circumvent it's checks, even if it can't fit everything it wants. There are a couple of checks to it, like the lati twins and mola, but it still seems too strong.

:blissey: It's too passive for any teams besides stall, but it's still unbreakable on the special side. Not much to say here.

:cinccino: An upgrade to maushold with higher attack, slightly more speed, and knock. Tidy up can be valuable on screens teams to support sash sweepers, and it's still a potent threat in it's own right. Imo, it still seems too frail to be used outside of HO, tho.

:comfey: Technically it can check kommo-o? Idk why this got more usage than terrakion.

:deoxys-defense: A weird one. Incredible bulk and access to knock, teleport, recover, and spikes are undeniably good traits, but a bad typing, mediocre ability, and extreme passivity are significant blows. It could either be the most annoying or the most mediocre thing on the planet. Cosmic power sets also seem usable, if outclassed.

:feraligatr: Incredibly strong after a boost, but it's surprisingly slow and might struggle with the new bulky waters and grasses.

:galvantula: An awkward midground between araquanid and ribombee. It's slower than quite a few offensive threats and it's thunders aren't really that strong. The bee even has para and pivoting support if you want it. There might be a place for this, but it seems heavily outclassed.

:greninja: Battle bond is still a ridiculous ability. There are a couple of decent checks to it, like mola, amoong, and even slowking if it drops dark pulse, but it still shreds offensive teams and can easily run away with games.

:hydrapple: An interesting sidegrade to amoong. It has better physical bulk and is more immediately threatening with base 120 special attack and accesss to coverage like earth power, but it's typing is much worse defensively, especially since the 4x weakness to ice means it loses to most offensive waters. It's hard to say whether one will outclass the other, or if they'll both be solid options link amoong and tang in SWSH.

:incineroar: It has some good tools like intimidate, STAB knock, and parting shot, but it has no recovery and a very awkward defensive typing

:iron moth: Incredible coverage, an absurd spa stat, and access to booster speed make this a deadly breaker or cleaner. I don't see this staying for long, it has the power and coverage to break through everything not named blissey.

:keldeo: It's very strong and has a new option in tera blast to work around it's checks, but there are a ton of pokemon that can easily stop it. Between slowking, the lati twins, and amoong, it's still very reasonable to check it even with tera.

:kingdra: A strong special swift swimmer would be great for rain if it existed. Maybe it'll have a place next month when peli drops again.

:latias: Both latis offer a great mix of offensive firepower and defensive utility, and it's middling offensive stats should make choiced sets very healthy additions to the tier. That being said, CM sets with stored power and tera might push it over the edge.

:latios: Specs is an absolute nuke and we have very few good steels and fairies to absorb draco. It's probably not lasting very long imo.

:manaphy: It's a bit slow, but almost nothing can take it's boosted hits. It seems broken on webs, but maybe it's mediocre speed could let it dodge the first set of quickbans.

:metagross: Losing toxic is a bit annoying, but access to knock and psychic fangs as well as a general lack of bulky steels is huge for it. It's lack of longevity and 4MSS might hold it back, but it has some interesting potential to make a comeback.

:minior-indigo: Shell smash and meteor beam are incredibly funny. Probably not great, but funny nonetheless.

:necrozma: It's a bit slow, but it still has plenty of boosting options, from DD to CM to meteor beam, and could be a solid offensive rocker on HO teams, or just another generic stored power sweeper.

:ogerpon-cornerstone: It has an excellent offensive typing and a great movepool. Sturdy is also great to buy a free turn of setup, and it's not nearly as tera reliant as it's base form. That being said, it's only decent speed and poor defensive typing hold it back somewhat, but it still seems very strong.

:porygon-z: A fun nuke and nothing more. Specs tera blast might have some funny potential, but it's still porygon

:reuniclus: Magic guard is a fantastic ability, but 8pp recover and competition from the 50 other psychic CM sweepers hurts

:ribombee: The fastest webs setter with some great utility options and decent offensive presence. Nothing groundbreaking, but it's great at what it does.

:smeargle: The ultimate HO lead. Spore something, get up hazards, and pick from any good support option. It's worth noting that revival blessing can't be sketched, but it's not like it has a shortage of options anyway.

:suicune: Tera seems really interesting for it, but it's still just gonna do normal suicune things. It's a timeless classic for a reason.

:swampert: Rocks, knock, and flip turn are all great tools, but it still lacks longevity and has bad 4MSS. The role compression can still be valuable tho.

:tentacruel: It has an incredible amount of support moves, but still lacks longevity, has 4MSS, and has an awkward typing with underwhelming physical bulk. It's also our only new usable removal option, but it's still very flawed.

:venusaur: A strong special chlorophyller would be great for sun if it existed. Maybe it'll have a place next month when torkoal drops again.

:zapdos: The bird seems absolutely incredible. It still has valuable defensive utility with it's great typing and static, but it's also a fantastic offensive threat. Our flying resists are surprisingly limited, and nothing really switches into it safely besides garg and blissey. That being said, there are some faster options that can help pivot around it, like treads and the latis, but it still seems very strong.

:cobalion: Offers a solid mix of offensive and defenisive utility, but it's speed tier isn't quite as impressive as before and meow and weav leaving are rough for it. It probably has a place, but it seems pretty niche.

:golurk: High attack and a great offensive typing make it a very funny breaker. Not the most serious choice out there, but it felt wrong not to mention it.

:raikou: Outspeeding ogerpon and the latis is great and it has decent coverage. It's a bit lacking in immediate power, but CM and pivot sets might have a place in the tier.

:rhyperior: It's a good rocks setter and is fantastic at trading with physical attackers. It's awkward stats and typing hold it back somewhat, but it's still great at forcing progress.

:terrakion: Band and SD seem scary with it's great offensive typing, but it's awkward speed tier hurts. It's difficult to counter defensively, but it's very easy to revenge kill it.

Overall, there are a lot of very strong options, but also some interesting mons I'm looking forward to using once the tier settles a bit
 
UU is extremely lucky to have finally been blessed with the return of Zapdos and I am here to give you the quick rundown on why you should not be passing it up!

:gs/zapdos:

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Volt Switch
- Hurricane
- Thunder Wave / Heat Wave

GSC OU players will know that Zapdos has excellent natural bulk, and it is able to put it to superb use here as a defensive physical pivot. Static is an incredible tool for checking a variety of physical attackers, ruining foes that use contact moves 30% of the time. Zapdos also has great natural SpA even with no investment, making its Volt Switches and Hurricanes sting hard. The final move is up to you for coverage! Thunder Wave is nice for forcing para on things but you can also use Heat Wave if you really wanna force the issue against bulky Steels. I'm sure there are plenty of other options this mon can run too but I cannot say enough nice things about it - it will check many mons in a pinch for you and put in work in every game!

Some calcs to convince you of Zap's excellence:
  • +2 252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 325-384 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
  • 252 SpA Latios Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 214-254 (55.7 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 232-274 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 280-340 (72.9 - 88.5%) -- approx. 2HKO
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 237-281 (61.7 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 292-345 (76 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • +2 252 Atk Quaquaval Aqua Step vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 198-234 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 270-318 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
 

LilOu

PO poopyhead
Only things I can see going are Moth, Chomp and mayyyybe Kommo-o, Blaze...
funnily enough, i haven't gotten a single chance to break/sweep with SD knock off blaziken in like 20 matches. most useless member in my actual team at least.

random info edit: webs HO is EVERYWHERE.

random info edit 2: battle bond gren is insane.
 

Sulo

ophelia
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National Dex Leader
Gonna post my thoughts on a few mons that I think have some pretty good value atm and might retain it later on when things cool down.

:sv/metagross: :sv/jirachi:

Putting these two together because I think they both have similar traits in what they check and force in, taking advantage of their switch-ins in different ways too. Metagross getting Knock Off is pretty sick; you give a whole lot of mons a much harder time, including the newly introduced Zapdos and others like Alomomola, Slowking, and Mandibuzz. Jirachi provides much more team-oriented utility with U-turn and Wish, meaning that alongside its shared trait with Metagross in checking the Lati twins and others, it's kinda annoying to punish in-game and can bolster the longevity of fat teams too. I haven't tried offensive Metagross sets yet but I imagine those will be hard to switch into too.

:sv/deoxys-defense:

This is lowkey a really nice Spiker right now, mostly because it has a good amount of utility outside of just being a hazard bot imo. Pressure + Covert Cloak can make it a really nice tool against Garganacl, it has Teleport to slow pivot in wallbreakers like Latios, Keldeo, and Kommo-o, and a bunch more like Knock Off and Taunt too. Its typing ends up being really awkward sometimes because you end up taking more neutral hits and using Recover more often, but I think its workable, especially w/ Tera.

I don't feel like posting about a lot of offense-oriented like mons, mostly because many of them feel pretty consistent and even a little broken sometimes but are still kinda w/e to me.
 
Huge fan of Zapdos. While Thundy-T will still some use I think balances are going to skew strongly towards Zap. I’d argue it’s the most important drop in the sense that it opens up team building significantly and can run a few different sets.

I think Suicune is going to be really nasty in this tier. Tera Dragon is pretty solid and I think it’s going to be a great anti meta pick that just cleans up late game.
 
Dropping some of my initial opinions on the tier after a successful climbing session today/yesterday using a variety of different teams and mons. I don't think there is anything that is egregiously broken it stands out well above the rest but I do have a list of mons that would be on my radar. Ladder is currently heavily dominated by webs and screens, which is to be expected but there is still a lot of room for exploration on bulky offense. I'm not an avid balance or stall player but I have seen attempts of them on the ladder. So far it feels pretty diverse with what you can make work.

Just to be clear I am not calling for a day one/two quick ban on anything. These are just the main ones I've had the most issues with.

Ceruledge is still a menace and difficult to reliably answer with sash and tera usually guaranteeing an SD + Weak Armor activation. I've primarily been reliant on priority on my builds but this has been the most annoying thing to try to play around for me.


It does the same thing as before whether it be behind screens or outside of it. The main difference is stronger Psychic-types like Latios and Necrozma being in the tier now. Its answers defensively are still minimal and sets up on too much. Tera then shakes up the ability to revenge kill it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2025133437-o3azyvz3z7x7ew0y6a1c63s3e4pyqyhpw - Example of Hands going off


Essentially the fastest mon in the tier now so it can be difficult to handle offensively, usually allowing it to always activate Battle Bond. We did get a few more pivots into it but not many of them do it comfortably. It's another big threat I depend on priority for usually.


Honestly, it hasn't been that impressive to me. Manaphy is rather easy to handle offensively with 100 being a pretty middling Speed tier. Works best with webs or screens to fix that but it seems reasonable from my testing.


I didn't want to put this on my radar list because I still need to explore its sets more but the versatility is insane making it difficult to judge what the set is on preview. Clangorous, Mixed, Specs, Defensive ID/Rocks, DD, SD Scale, etc. I'm sure some of these sets will be outclassed by other mons in the tier but you still have to consider them. Defensive answers to it are still lacking but the average Speed tier is faster rn so it has a harder time.


Very flexible mon from coverage to its item. The Speed boost ones have been the most troubling for me but it is very reliant on FIery Dance boosts to become a really dangerous threat on those sets. It does have quite a few defensive answers with it being restricted to Booster and Fiery Dance to boost so I've found it to be fine.


I thought Oger-C would be busted but it's been fine enough so far. Defensively it struggles to break Coba, Jirachi, Kommo-o, etc. depending on its last coverage at least. Sturdy does make it very annoying if hazards aren't up but that mostly comes down to positioning.


I think Webs still suck tbh mainly due to Treads still being our best remover and many of our fliers like Tornadus-T, Latios, etc. being so strong into these builds. You can very much make the playstyle work but it is fairly easy to punish from using/playing against it. I'm sure it will continue to dominate ladder usage anyways.


Even through everything Tornadus-T comes out on top. It's still the best mon in the tier lol.


Defensively we didn't get too much more for the SD sets but I thought it was fine before anyway. The tier is quite fast so you can limit it getting away scot-free with two turns needed to set up. Imo the Spikes sets are so good with it beating most of our removal. Helmet + Rough Skin is very strong into the offensive meta rn too.


Latias is far more dangerous than Latios and I'm sure it probably finds a way to be busted once spreads/sets are optimized. It pulls off CM sets better thanks to the bulk and offers more utility on Choice Scarf with HW. I think the Stored Power sets with Agility are very greedy and I expect more standard CM sets will pop up later. It's pretty high on my list.


Specs clicks buttons but honestly, it isn't that bad to deal with. It can use Calm Mind sets with LO/Soul Dew decently but it's easier to punish than Latias. Flip Turn was a decent addition letting it pivot out of bad matchups, which I had originally dismissed.


Keldeo feels amazing to use with its classic Specs set. Defensive answers are limited so you can very easily just spam your STAB moves. Flip Turn and Icy Wind are still options you can run and Vacuum Wave is a pretty cool buff for it.


Blaziken has been okay enough to deal with from my experience but it can very easily flip games if it gets that chance to SD. I was using Upper Hand on SD over coverage and thought that was neat into priority mons. Wouldn't be surprised to see it go/looked at though


It's in PU right now so people probably miss it in the builder but Terrakion is very good. Defensively it lacks reliable switchins, especially after an SD. I haven't managed to give CB a go but it has that option too. I also gave Choice Scarf a try and felt that it was a fairly decent revenge killer.

Smeargle Hazard HO


Sticky Web HO


Specs Keldeo Hazard Stack


Choice Specs Latios BO


Specs Clanger BO


Feraligatr Veil HO


CB Blaziken + QD Bee BO


1.png

Here are all the teams I've built if people want stuff to ladder with. Quite a good variety so hopefully something clicks if you are interested. If you have any questions or suggestions I'm always open to hearing them on PS or Discord. Have fun playing the new tier.
 
:Suicune:
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Protect

This is a really gnarly set. I previously said Grass is the best Tera but I am now leaning Poison for letting you set up on Amoongus. Psychic weakness is pretty much irrelevant and Ground types do not want to eat scalds to break your sub.
 
Quick post to summarize my thoughts on the metagame. First and foremost, I do believe there is several threats which are absolutely nuts right now and way to good at what they do. This is amplified by Ninetales-A Veil support which makes me want to act against either Ninetales-A as a whole or Light Clay. But this will be a discussion to have in a near future because it's quite obvious some threats don't need Aurora Veil support to be way too good, so for now let's focus on things I found problematic.


Blaziken @ Leftovers / Air Balloon
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Electrik / Steel / Flying / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Knock Off / Thunder Punch / Protect

While Blaziken isn't the most broken Pokémon we got from those shifts I feel like it's still so threatening. It acts pretty much like Quaquaval on steroid and Speed Boost makes it really tough to revenge kill. It's a pretty damn good user of Tera and can use it to gain free setup opportunities which allows it to snowball effectively. It's even worst under Veil but hey, almost all threats I'll list in this post are even dumber under it so it's the first and only time I'll mention it. Overall a super oppressive Pokémon which may be too good for the tier tbh.


Garchomp @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Steel / Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Scale Shot
- Earthquake
- Iron Head / Tera Blast

Garchomp works exactly like it was working when it first dropped to UU a few months ago. It's still way too good imo and able to snowball so effectively due to its bulk which makes it quite tough to revenge kill. Tera Steel makes it even tougher to revenge kill since it allows it to resist our most common priorities aka Bullet Punch and Extreme Speed (you could even take into account Ice Shard but we don't have a lot of good users of it at the moment except Mamoswine). With a single SD, Garchomp can break through almost anything and can force early Tera just to handle it which then open doors for its teammates. Also Weezing-Galar and Rotom-Wash are way tougher to use due to those recent shifts which doesn't help to keep in check Garchomp. I don't see a world where this bad boy could stay in the tier.


Greninja @ Life Orb / Loaded Dice
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Water / Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Water Shuriken / Sludge Wave
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam / Sludge Wave

Jeez, without Meowscarada in the tier this Pokémon feels oppressive to an extreme extent. It's one of the fastest threat in the tier (there is basically only Ribombee which is naturally faster and viable) and it forces a lot of switch-in because you most of the time really don't want that bad boy to get a KO and activate Battle Bond which makes it even tougher to check. Like Blaziken, I don't think it's a top priority right now but definitively something we should keep on the radar. Not to mention Greninja trives in a metagame filled with Pokémon such as Lati@s, Zapdos, Garchomp or Ogerpon-Cornerstone.


Iron Hands @ Booster Energy / Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost / Flying / Fairy
EVs: 76 HP / 56 Atk / 252 SpD / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch

Mimilucha was right, Iron Hands is still insanely dumb. It's able to trade vs basically anything due to its bulk and trives even more under Veil (I know I said I won't mention it anymore but bro this thing is unkillable under Veil for real). Nothing has changed, Iron Hands is still way too thicc and powerful for the tier and I'm pretty convinced it will never be not broken in this tier, even if Skeledirge was dropping in a near future. This Pokémon is definitively a top priority and candidate for a ban.


Iron Moth @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass / Fairy / Ground
EVs: 124 Def / 132 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute / Dazzling Gleam / Psychic
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Energy Ball / Dazzling Gleam / Tera Blast

Iron Moth is in my opinion too versatile to be OK for the sanity of this tier. All its Tera variants allow it to adapt to its checks and to bypass them. Tera Grass + Energy Ball just nukes Garganacl and allows it to setup a Substitute vs the pile of salt while Tera Fairy + Dazzling Gleam shits on Dragon-types such as Lati@s, Garchomp, Kommo-o while dealing great damages to foes such as Iron Hands. Quark Drive + Energy Boost + the spread above allows it to outspeed almost anything in the tier once it touches the field. Fiery Dance isn't perfect but can allow it to snowball games if you're getting lucky with the boost. Really nasty threat which wasn't mentionned a lot I feel like.


Kommo-o @ Throat Spray
Ability: Soundproof / Bulletproof
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clangorous Soul
- Clanging Scales
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower / Aura Sphere

I'm convinced Kommo-o is too good even tho the metagame doesn't fully allow it to be broken yet. However I'm convinced it will soon be too much once the top priorities are gone and for those reason I still will vote for a ban if we had to vote on it in a near future. I only listed its special Clangorous Soul set but this Pokémon is so versatile that it can run almost any set. Clangorous Soul, DD, SD, AoA etc.. it has all the tools to do what it wants.


Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
Tera Type: Water / Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Scald / Surf
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball

It's the last time I mention it I swear but this Pokémon under Aurora Veil is pretty much impossible to deal with. Tail Glow is pure insanity and allow it to pretty much KO whatever it wants after a single use. It has the coverage to punish all common answers to Water-types thanks to Ice Beam which punishes Grass and Dragon-types while Energy Ball dents Water-types. Like Iron Moth, I've not seen a lot of people talked about it yet but I can ensure you it's so insane to play around it without dedicated answers such as Encore Ogerpon(-Cornerstone). Tail Glow allows it beat on 1v1 other setup sweepers because you're boosting faster than they does (like Latias / Suicune).


Ogerpon-Cornerstone (F) @ Cornerstone Mask
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Horn Leech / Power Whip
- Trailblaze / Encore / U-turn / Knock Off
- Ivy Cudgel

Last but not least, I feel like Ogerpon-Cornerstone is really, really, REALLY good. Rock Ivy Cudgel hits so hard and is able to dent so much targets while Horn Leech / Power Chip nukes Ground/Water-types. I feel like it's super tough to check this Pokémon defensively and I firmly believe it's too powerful for the tier. It may not be a top priority but I struggle to see this Pokémon staying in the tier in the long term. After a SD, it deletes way too much things.

That's all for today, I only listed the Pokémon I felt problematic. There is a lot of new tools which are really great such as Zapdos which already feels like a staple for the tier or Garganacl which is a fantastic but managable tool (for now at least). I haven't seen a lot of Ceruledge and haven't struggled too much vs those I faced so I feel like it's OK for now. Latias is concerning and felt tougher to handle than Latios but they're not as dominant as the Pokémon I mentionned in this post. I'm also so relieved to see Alomomola back in this tier, I really love that Pokémon so it's great. I also played Suicune with its VinCune set and it felt great. It does struggled in the current metagame because everything it's too explosive which makes it tough to setup but I do believe it can be great once the metagame will be settled down.
 
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Quick post to summarize my thoughts on the metagame. First and foremost, I do believe there is several threats which are absolutely nuts right now and way to good at what they do. This is amplified by Ninetales-A Veil support which makes me want to act against either Ninetales-A as a whole or Light Clay. But this will be a discussion to have in a near future because it's quite obvious some threats don't need Aurora Veil support to be way too good, so for now let's focus on things I found problematic.


Blaziken @ Leftovers / Air Balloon
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Electrik / Steel / Flying / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Knock Off / Thunder Punch / Protect

While Blaziken isn't the most broken Pokémon we got from those shifts I feel like it's still so threatening. It acts pretty much like Quaquaval on steroid and Speed Boost makes it really tough to revenge kill. It's a pretty damn good user of Tera and can use it to gain free setup opportunities which allows it to snowball effectively. It's even worst under Veil but hey, almost all threats I'll list in this post are even dumber under it so it's the first and only time I'll mention it. Overall a super oppressive Pokémon which may be too good for the tier tbh.


Garchomp @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Steel / Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Scale Shot
- Earthquake
- Iron Head / Tera Blast

Garchomp works exactly like it was working when it first dropped to UU a few months ago. It's still way too good imo and able to snowball so effectively due to its bulk which makes it quite tough to revenge kill. Tera Steel makes it even tougher to revenge kill since it allows it to resist our most common priorities aka Bullet Punch and Extreme Speed (you could even take into account Ice Shard but we don't have a lot of good users of it at the moment except Mamoswine). With a single SD, Garchomp can break through almost anything and can force early Tera just to handle it which then open doors for its teammates. Also Weezing-Galar and Rotom-Wash are way tougher to use due to those recent shifts which doesn't help to keep in check Garchomp. I don't see a world where this bad boy could stay in the tier.


Greninja @ Life Orb / Loaded Dice
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Water / Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Water Shuriken / Sludge Wave
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam / Sludge Wave

Jeez, without Meowscarada in the tier this Pokémon feels oppressive to an extreme extent. It's one of the fastest threat in the tier (there is basically only Ribombee which is naturally faster and viable) and it forces a lot of switch-in because you most of the time really don't want that bad boy to get a KO and activate Battle Bond which makes it even tougher to check. Like Blaziken, I don't think it's a top priority right now but definitively something we should keep on the radar. Not to mention Greninja trives in a metagame filled with Pokémon such as Lati@s, Zapdos, Garchomp or Ogerpon-Cornerstone.


Iron Hands @ Booster Energy / Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost / Flying / Fairy
EVs: 76 HP / 56 Atk / 252 SpD / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch

Mimilucha was right, Iron Hands is still insanely dumb. It's able to trade vs basically anything due to its bulk and trives even more under Veil (I know I said I won't mention it anymore but bro this thing is unkillable under Veil for real). Nothing has changed, Iron Hands is still way too thicc and powerful for the tier and I'm pretty convinced it will never be not broken in this tier, even if Skeledirge was dropping in a near future. This Pokémon is definitively a top priority and candidate for a ban.


Iron Moth @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass / Fairy / Ground
EVs: 124 Def / 132 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute / Dazzling Gleam / Psychic
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Energy Ball / Dazzling Gleam / Tera Blast

Iron Moth is in my opinion too versatile to be OK for the sanity of this tier. All its Tera variants allow it to adapt to its checks and to bypass them. Tera Grass + Energy Ball just nukes Garganacl and allows it to setup a Substitute vs the pile of salt while Tera Fairy + Dazzling Gleam shits on Dragon-types such as Lati@s, Garchomp, Kommo-o while dealing great damages to foes such as Iron Hands. Quark Drive + Energy Boost + the spread above allows it to outspeed almost anything in the tier once it touches the field. Fiery Dance isn't perfect but can allow it to snowball games if you're getting lucky with the boost. Really nasty threat which wasn't mentionned a lot I feel like.


Kommo-o @ Throat Spray
Ability: Soundproof / Bulletproof
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clangorous Soul
- Clanging Scales
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower / Aura Sphere

I'm convinced Kommo-o is too good even tho the metagame doesn't fully allow it to be broken yet. However I'm convinced it will soon be too much once the top priorities are gone and for those reason I still will vote for a ban if we had to vote on it in a near future. I only listed its special Clangorous Soul set but this Pokémon is so versatile that it can run almost any set. Clangorous Soul, DD, SD, AoA etc.. it has all the tools to do what it wants.


Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
Tera Type: Water / Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Scald / Surf
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball

It's the last time I mention it I swear but this Pokémon under Aurora Veil is pretty much impossible to deal with. Tail Glow is pure insanity and allow it to pretty much KO whatever it wants after a single use. It has the coverage to punish all common answers to Water-types thanks to Ice Beam which punishes Grass and Dragon-types while Energy Ball dents Water-types. Like Iron Moth, I've not seen a lot of people talked about it yet but I can ensure you it's so insane to play around it without dedicated answers such as Encore Ogerpon(-Cornerstone). Tail Glow allows it beat on 1v1 other setup sweepers because you're boosting faster than they does (like Latias / Suicune).


Ogerpon-Cornerstone (F) @ Cornerstone Mask
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Horn Leech / Power Whip
- Trailblaze / Encore / U-turn / Knock Off
- Ivy Cudgel

Last but not least, I feel like Ogerpon-Cornerstone really, really, REALLY good. Rock Ivy Cudgel hits so hard and is able to dent so much targets while Horn Leech / Power Chip nukes Ground/Water-types. I feel like it's super tough to check this Pokémon defensively and I firmly believe it's too powerful for the tier. It may not be a top priority but I struggle to see this Pokémon staying in the tier in the long term. After a SD, it deletes way too much things.

That's all for today, I only listed the Pokémon I felt problematic. There is a lot of new tools which are really great such as Zapdos which already feels like a staple for the tier or Garganacl which is a fantastic but managable tool (for now at least). I haven't seen a lot of Ceruledge and haven't struggled too much vs those I faced so I feel like it's OK for now. Latias is concerning and felt tougher to handle than Latios but they're not as dominant as the Pokémon I mentionned in this post. I'm also so relieved to see Alomomola back in this tier, I really love that Pokémon so it's great. I also played Suicune with its VinCune set and it felt great. It does struggled in the current metagame because everything it's too explosive which makes it tough to setup but I do believe it can be great once the metagame will be settled down.
I agree with this entire post besides Ogerpon. Being item and tera locked is a big deal. I think we gotta wait on this one before declaring it broken, it is a very effective wallbreaker but it is relatively straightforward to revenge if nothing else. On an aside, I think it would be cool if we discussed an Aurora Veil and/or Light Clay ban. Veil in particular is just such a low risk high reward style, at least screens take two turns. I think these elements make more sense to talk about first before any of the broken mons so that they can be evaluated in a meta that is less hospitable to mindless setup.
 
Few of my dumb thoughts


:kommo-o:

On paper this guy is disgusting, however in practice it feels like it falls short of being broken. Special sets are definitely the best but the amount of chip it takes just to set up + whatever your opponent decides to do just leaves it vulnerable to getting revenge killed. And even after you set up it always feels like it falls just shy of getting important kos. I’m sure it’s good on aurora veil teams but rn I’m not convinced it’s broken.


:ogerpon-cornerstone:

This girlboss is very very good. I’ve used it a lot with encore and it’s just a really good anti-bullshit mon. I don’t think it’s a great sweeper because it struggles with 4mss since it wants trailblaze, superpower/low kick, zen headbutt, knock off, and more on top of the necessary ivy cudgel and sd. The fact that it’s item locked and it’s tera form isn’t as good as base ogerpon hurts as well. I don’t think it’s broken but it’s still very good. Might be a bit biased though considering I’ve been using a lot of weezing galar.


:manaphy:

Again might be biased since I’ve been using a ton of blissey and alolamola, but I don’t see it how it’s op. 4mss, too slow to annihilate offence. Take heart sets might be better than the standard tail glow I’ve been seeing a lot of, but I can’t comment since I haven’t used/faced it yet.


:Lokix:

This guy is great. Another brilliant anti-bullshit mon. First impression and sucker punch revenge kills a lot of the new drops after some chip or just from full health for some of them. It’s still good against defence since knock off into u-turn is incredibly spamable. You can even run protective pads as a meme to help in that matchup (to ignore zapdos’ static, garchomp’s rough skin and any rocky helmets).
 
So yesterday I decided it was as good a time as any to go back into teambuilding since everyone would be trying out stuff. I wanted to build first a Veil team and then a balance one centered around CM Slowbro and Zap—reminiscent from the BW/early XY UU days. For the Veil squad I chose a core of SD Terrak, Sub Booster Moth and BD Azu, I was kinda worried about hazard stacking HO and of finding that one Psychic Terrain team that's been spammed so I chose Booster Treads with Ice Spinner and finally put Tera Poison CM Latias since I know it's a demon. Then for the balance squad I was going to put Cobalion, Amoonguss, and Garchomp when I remembered Zapdos lost Defog so I again found myself needing a mon for hazard clearing—and possibly Terrain—so I was back to the drawing board.
Granted in the Veil team I could've thrown Ice Spinner on Azu and something like Tidy Up Cinccino over Treads, but don't you guys feel even with all of these changes balance is still way too Treads dependant? Even with stuff like Spin Quaq or Tenta which are kinda hard to fit when building around CM Slowbro. Love the mon but it's kinda hilarious to find out it's still the best fit.

As for the mons, from the few games I've played I can tell
Terrak is still really good even with the competition from Lycan and Cornerpon,
Azu is deadly as always,
Booster Moth will be kinda broken when more people (ie. me) choose to lower its Special Attack to give it a Speed boost as there isn't much priority to rk if it gets the Fiery Dance Proc, and
CM Latias is also lowkey borked with Tera Poison, to the point where sometimes the only answer will be unTera'd opposing Lati. Maybe people will tech Psychic Noise into more stuff to prevent it from using Recover/Draining Kiss? Anyway definitely won't be on anyone's first list but something to keep on the radar.

Edit: as I was typing Moutemoute made a much more comprehensive post to which I can say I generally agree although they have more experience.
 
Yeah, sad to say that Hands still feels busted, or at least it will be once some of the other new busted stuff that can check it offensively goes. Don't sleep on Supercell Slam. It's not the "good" physical Electric move we've all been waiting decades for, but it's still a ~30% increase in power over Thunder Punch, which is generally worth the drawback.

My default Hands spread is 96 Atk / 248 SpD / 164 Spe. At that level of investment, Supercell Slam gives Hands guaranteed KOs into Keldeo, bulky Torn-T, and bulky Azumarill, a 94% chance to OHKO offensive Manaphy, a 30% chance to OHKO 116HP/0Def Volcanion, and a 75% chance to KO Booster Moth after rocks. At +2, you easily OHKO PhysDef Mandibuzz, 2HKO Cress and max PhysDef Deo-D, and deal 65% minimum to Gweezing.

And then there's all of the other stuff that you may not OHKO but still chunk a lot harder. Any offensive 'mon that isn't an Electric resist is going to have a bad time switching into Supercell Slam after a round or two of hazards. Which basically means, if you're willing to risk the crash damage (which has happened to me less than a handful of times across many, many games running Hands in OU and now here), Supercell Slam basically removes the opportunity cost of running Ice Punch over Earthquake. And the last thing Iron Hands needed was an easier time picking a set to run.

It's probably time to boot my chonky roboy back out.
 
Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Psychic Fangs
- Heavy Slam
- Stealth Rock

If veil HO is not your thing, this is the pokemon for you. I don't think I need to explain why this Pokémon is so good at dealing with veil HO, but this Pokémon is also highly utility in other matchups. For example, the stored power user is perfect fodder for this mon. It can also deal with other popular threats such as Latios, Hands, and Ogerpon.
Specs Goodra Balance Ver. DLC1 (pokepast.es)
This is the metagross team I'm using right now. rhyperior (or rather rock types in general) is also very compatible with the current metagame, except that it doesn't work well with treads.

edit: reached 1600
 
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Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
I've been laddering with some Veil teams provided by friends and I really hope there is some action taken on Light Clay or A-Tales because otherwise at least 4-5 mons are going to have to be banned to "pacify" Screens back to being somewhat acceptable. Sets like Scale Shot SD Chomper, Double Dance Manaphy (TG's also pretty good), any Latias set (this mon might just be broken in general but I'm biased b/c Stored Power Tera lol), and Clangorous Soul Kommo-o go from very deadly but potentially dealable to just ridiculous behind Screens, especially if you still have the option to surprise your opponent with a Tera type. Aside from some good counterpicks to Veil like Ogerpon-Cornerstone, A-Tales is fast enough and oftentimes just bulky enough to set up Screens at least once a game and with the volatile nature of these setup sweepers, it can be all you need to take a huge chunk of a team out or just win on the spot. It feels too hard to punish generally and pushes a ton of mons from borderline crazy to insanely busted. I do think that some Veil abusers running around are worth banning on their own merits but there are some like Manaphy that I think could be balanced without the additional support and I wish that this continued trend of Screens making mons ultra broken goes towards taking action on Screens this meta if it continues to be this overbearing.

Cinccino @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Grass / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tidy Up
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Blast
- Tail Slap

On a more positive note, this mon has proven to not be a complete fraud in this tier. Faces some competition from the Maus but has its own unique traits in better coverage moves and a slightly higher natural Speed tier. I've found the option of Bullet Seed very valuable into popular mons like Garganacl who would spell trouble for a Maushold but ends up being no problem for Cinccino unless they burn their Tera (which a surprising amount of players have not chosen to do on their Gargs today). This also has some other cool coverage/Tera options like Tera Dark to own Polteageist teams (and it gets Knock Off for STAB!) as well as Technician Triple Axel which I haven't personally ran but I could see the use for it. Overall a really good alternative to Maushold for hazard control purposes on your HOs and is a drop I really appreciate.
 
i was excited by all the drops but this is just too much power creep. Feels like OU sadly. Im gonna wait it out.

But still exciting to see a bunch of new mons. Maybe some of the lesser broken ones stay and are fun to play with.

BTW, all the previously banned mons from UU to UUBL are still busted and too strong imo. Either they are unkillable (and kill everything in return) or is too easy to setup and sweep with them especially with terra
 
1704252767336.png


This mon is stupid fun... victory dance is funny when a lot of broken HO shit joins in. Like you setup on ogerpon-cornerstone, take advantage of balance and alomomola, iron treads a bit to, tho last slot is kinda mix between leaf blade for azu or tera blats ghost for ceruledge it just depends on what ur team can deal with.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2025833851-6zgsdui3xw0ldvuj7w5kvm7m078vb9upw

1704253021773.png


Necrozma with this set this set is a pretty great pokemon! you setup on many pokemon, like amoonguss thanks to lum, iron hands, choiced keldeo, lati twins in general, and smth like weezing-g and can break through unaware pokemon (even tho there are no notable ones).

This is a great set that can take over the game esp with tera fire heat wave killing scizor, iron treads, meta, and rachi. and necrozma being an amazing setup sweeper esp with hazards

1704253422187.png


Wanna know the wackiest set im running rn! its this dumb set. Why am I running smth this stupid? Because t wave is amazing utility for setup sweepers.. t wave stops things like double dance lati twins, SD ogerpon, stops booster iron leaves, and nobody is gonna leave torn-t in vs smth like this and this allows u to spam spikes by bluffing ur absence of thunderbolt. I like thunder wave rn.

1704253662036.png

Iron moth is a funny pokemon on HO. Iron moth first of all many people dont utilize the last slot, the last slot on my team is dazzling gleam + tera fairy this allows ti to hit a bit target in garchomp, while also hitting lati twins the hardest esp with tera, salamence, and hands which can be crucial when you are pushing for as much damage as possible, as much as i like sub for switch ins to take advantage of them i like 4 attacks more compared to what OU like to runs.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2025820186?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2025791204?p2

SOme replays of the team putting in action, its a funny team that i am hoping to push it to success (until smth like chomp and moth get banned)
 
NGL I am liking this current meta more than the previous one lol. With mons like Garchomp and Garganacl back, it feels like you have way more flexibility vs bullshit auto-win cheese than before & the booster energy mons like Iron Moth + Fast AF Scarfers like Latios and Keldeo give us way better means of revenge killing these threats while maintaining some semblence of defensive integrity, which is far more than I can of the previous metagame, where the fastest Pokemon were also frail as tissue paper & would snap in half from Tera mindgames or from missing an attack like Icicle Crash / Triple Axel. This isn't to say the amount of autowin cheese isn't still high, since it is with drops like Latias and Kommo-o, but it at least feels more managable to play around. Blissey, Alolamola, and Amoongus being back also gives bulkier playstyles SIGNIFICANTLY more breathing room to function & further open up other bulkier Pokemon that could be left in the dust like Registeel & Gastrodon.

This tier is in a really weird state because a lot of the threats currently availible are comparable to OU mons in terms of power. Structs like ATales / Latias / Ogerpon-C / Iron Moth / Manaphy / Garchomp aren't too far off from what you would have been running in an OU match in the DLC1 meta for example. There are a lot of OU-esque interactions between threats, like Amoongus vs Garg or Zapdos vs Garchomp, which I quite like. The lower power level does naturally open itself up to a lot more options that are either rarely or never considered for use in OU, like Iron Hands and Kommo-O, which is also cool to see.
 
aurora veil is absolutely broken, there is a lot of pokemon that abuses it and has no counterplay, we no longer have good pokemons with unaware.

ninetales alola, light clay or aurora veil
one of these 3 needs to be banned
 
aurora veil is absolutely broken, there is a lot of pokemon that abuses it and has no counterplay, we no longer have good pokemons with unaware.

ninetales alola, light clay or aurora veil
one of these 3 needs to be banned
I'd say Ninetails first. If you want run Abomasnow Veil more power to ya but I think it's probably the simplest nerf to HO.
 
I'd say Ninetails first. If you want run Abomasnow Veil more power to ya but I think it's probably the simplest nerf to HO.
I agree mostly cause it creates the least collateral damage. While I’m aware tiering isn’t based on what’s best for all tiers, I do think it should at least be thought about before making decisions. Ninetales is rarely used outside of aurora veil, so it has the least impact, while light clay makes screens as a whole borderline unviable and banning aurora veil makes other potential strategies in lower tiers impossible to use.

It’s also the simplest ban possible which councils normally prefer doing from what I’ve seen.
 

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