Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk

I hate Light Clay & Dual Screens across all tiers, but I am mixed on axing the item. These teams do have a weakness against hazard teams, though setting hazards against them with mons like chomp can proof to be difficult, particularly if a mon like blaziken is staring you down. In general, the problem is that dual screens teams have too many big threats staring you down at once, which become overwhelming.

That being said, even if the worst offenders are banned, new ones will replace them due to there being a lot of strong options for autowin sweepers in the tier. Take away Latias and teams will start using Cresselia or some other shit as a replacement. There are a bunch of other annoying threats like Gyarados and Quaquaval that I could see replacing Blaziken should that get banned. In this case, I think its preferable to ban the items because there is just way too much cheese that we do not have the tools to deal with. Perhaps I am underestimating the potency of UUs walls like Garg & Blissey + Encore users in dealing with the new threats, but personally, I'd prefer to just axe the item, espicially since almost every lower tier has Light Clay banned so it wouldn't even cause much collateral damage. Then again, this may just be a case of me also having some skill issues in this department so it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if this item remained legal.

Latias is pretty fucking cheap and I would not at all be sad to see this mon go. Other players are right in calling this mon Espathra 2 because this mon has all the tools to trash its go to answers, whether it be Aura Sphere for Bisharp, Weather Ball / Tera Blast Fire for Scizor, or Draining Kiss / Alluring voice for darks. In general, the quality of the phazers in this tier isn't too good either imo, particularly against Latias which can Tera Fairy to beat most of em. Being faster than most Hazers is another issue I feel & it can run tera steel to beat clear smoggers (& can just tech psyshock as well to own them). Granted, it can't do all of this at once, so this may just be another case of a mon that I have a skill issue against, but its just so frustrating to fight against, esp under dual screens.

Blaziken is weird. Personally I am still more scared of Quaquaval, but that's more of me problem lol. RN I feel blaziken has some longevity issues due to the combo of LO and Flare Blitz recoil limiting its sweeps. Against Helmet Chomp, this is quite an annoying drawback. I also think it struggles vs ID Garg. However, I also don't think its full potential has really been explored either. The quality of the unaware users in UU is lower than in OU and Blaziken could potentially start popping off with bulkier sets that are more focused on preserving its HP for more reliably setup. As things currently stand, I think Blaziken is ok, but not the most pressing threat.

As for Hands, I barely see that mon. IDK what made it OP last time either lol. Can't really comment on whether its OP or not.
 
I'm almost sure this was debunked a while ago. If a Pokémon with Booster Energy comes on the field, Sticky Web is applied first and then Booster Energy is used. In our case, Sticky Webs would lower Iron Moth speed thus triggering a boost in special attack with Booster Energy (and not speed as usual since SpA > Speed after debuff due to Sticky Web).
I noticed in one my games that Iron Moth got outsped by Oger and havent been paying close enough attention wether booster Spe or SpA activated so I just run it in calculator. If thats the case then Webs is even more disruptive against Booster Mons than i thought.
 
Just wondering, but is the mon gallade actually good in the tier or is it just because of that one person that spammed the heck out of it along with 5 of the other rises?
 

ThatOneApple

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Just wondering, but is the mon gallade actually good in the tier or is it just because of that one person that spammed the heck out of it along with 5 of the other rises?
Gallade isnt good in the slightest really. There was just this one account that somehow had 4000 games in one month that spammed one team alongside the fact that ladder was mostly dead that caused it and those other guys to rise. Arma indeedee lucha and poltea probably werent unviable at that time considering the lack of dirge in the tier, but gallade and donphan arent things I'd have recommended using.
 
Gallade isnt good in the slightest really. There was just this one account that somehow had 4000 games in one month that spammed one team alongside the fact that ladder was mostly dead that caused it and those other guys to rise. Arma indeedee lucha and poltea probably werent unviable at that time considering the lack of dirge in the tier, but gallade and donphan arent things I'd have recommended using.
They had to play about 5 games per hour, per day, which means there games took max, 12 minutes. This is if they played 24 hours a day, my god.
 
:light_clay: It adds no level of substance to the tier but making ladder play more abysmal. The offensive playstyle will still be solid without it. Ninetales-A usage will probably still be fine and Grimmsnarl not so much I feel. BAN

:Latias: I had no real problems running into this mon but it's quite annoying to deal with. As many others have stated in the thread it would have been a cool scarfer/cmer/support mon if didn't have the cheesy tera stored power set that many mons have abused this gen thanks to tera. That stored power draining kiss set needs certain wincons met first, yes, but it's not healthy in the tier atm and we should be really get rid "bumps" to smooth the meta out. BAN

:blaziken: Haven't been using it but seeing battles this mon needs the prefect board to get going but when it does it quite the menace. It kills itself with LO + flare blitz often which is a downside. Could get rid of the LO but it becomes a wet wipe in power. Realistically needs an SD and two speed boosts to actually get going. Resists common priority in the tier (Scizor BP/Lokix FI (still resists). Probably punishes slower builds like crazy. Kinda split on this mon I would love to see it develop more. DO NOT BAN

:Iron_Hands: Oh man.... when are we gonna learn this mon was never okay? Fourth time iirc and it's still dumb. The metagame is chaotic atm and people are dismissing it b/c it doesnt do its iron hands stuff against opposing ho. It still completely invalidates BO, Semi-Stall, and stall to embarrassing degrees. Sub SD is probably its best set atm. It doesnt die thanks to its ridic 154/108/68 bulk + drain punch healing/lefties. Tera adds another unhealthily layer giving it typings that abuse the bulk or grant immunities to give it a free turn to grab a ko or set up. (Fairy/Ghost/Flying/Poison/Steel). Skeledirge never gonna be a saving grace either. Just let him die, thanks. BAN x4

Editing b/c I wanna yap more.

:garchomp: still too busted I feel maybe the ho spamming is making me feel this way. the defensive sets are a great addition but the sd scale shots sets feel like theyre still the same level of too much like back in dlc1.
:Latios: This mon will get more out of hands as the days go on and more things get the boot. Choice specs is incredible. There's probably other sets that will get better to over time. Flip turn was a great buff.
:ogerpon-cornerstone: Sturdy and a 100bp/acc stab rock move enables it too much. Would love to see it get looked at.
:ceruledge: In the same boat as iron hands. Bitter Blade recovery. Resists common priority. Strong poltergeist. ban etc.
:deoxys-defense: :suicune: These two get better as the tier progresses. Pressure Stalling might be a thing just maybe.
:Jirachi: :metagross: :goodra-hisui: :Scizor: The steels have gotten a lot more better in the metagame thanks to lati@s. Minus a few mentioned in this their viability may be jeopardy if those two leave though.
:necrozma: It has the stupid demon stored power set too. Versatile as well. Will def be a top mon in the future.
:Sinistcha: Still good
:donphan: still has a niche as a offense check thanks to hdb sturdy + shard. Meh spinner.
:Garganacl: Will probably become out of hand in the future but fine atm.
 
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We had Veil and other screen setters like Grimm here before shifts and there wasn't exactly that much support to take action on the playstyle so to me it feels more like some of the abusers are the biggest issues at hand. I also think that this does partially affect the outcome of Latias, at least from my experience anyway. I've only found it to be an issue when behind screens, would being limited to essentially only 4 turns instead of 7 make it easier to handle for teams that struggle to fit Encore or Taunt? While I get the argument it doesn't necessarily add much benefit to the tier I think this is kind of a band-aid fix more than anything. Imo I would start by removing the problematic abusers and if it continues to be an issue then vote on it again.


I think these two are the biggest abusers of it right now and I'd say it is mostly due to Agility making them faster. Manaphy is up there but I find it easier to punish.


I don't feel that strongly about Latias personally. The problem most people have is with the double dance sets, which is made worse by screens letting it get several boosts. Now I do think these sets aren't that bad to play around because they are super vulnerable to Taunt, Encore, and Trick. After all, the strength of these sets comes from Stored Power. I'd say the issue more leans toward the fact that the other CM sets are still very good. CM 3 Attacks, CM 2 Attacks + Recover/Substitute, BoltBeam, etc. There is also the fact that it is a great abuser of tera with Poison, Steel, Electric, Fairy, etc. This does mean that a misjudgment of the set could throw everything off.

I did state above that I do think my opinion on Latias is greatly tied to screens so it might change if Light Clay was banned but idk if we will have the chance to see that so I would support banning it given the outcome of Light Clay being left as is.


I myself have found Blaziken to be okay but I understand why it is on the list. It's pretty constricting on the builder as few Pokemon can revenge a Blaziken after one or two Speed boosts or take a +2 hit. However, it is worth noting the Pokemon has issues with 4MSS and longevity. Flare Blitz chunks itself and if you factor LO/Helmet/hazards it ends up in range of even resisted prio. CC lowering its defences can also make it easier for priority to pick it off. I've only really seen people use SD sets and I think they are very reliant on the pieces lining up to pop off.

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Protect

Imo this has been the best set for Blaziken. I think SD in this meta is just too greedy 90% of the time and you end up in situations where you now lack the coverage to remove something like the Latis without an SD or drop Protect removing the insurance of the Speed boost. Blaziken is strong enough as is with just LO and tera. Use it to wallbreak where it looks like it can, otherwise, just treat it as a cleaner. I'd rather give this Pokemon a suspect than QB but I don't mind seeing it go now and maybe looked at later.


Let us not entertain bringing it back even if croc drops


Pretty upset this wasn't on the slate. I do not think it is a healthy addition to the tier. Usually becomes a do you have Garg, priority out of range of +2 Sneak, or a Water-type bulky enough to tank +2 Polter.


I have been convinced it is broken.
 

Monky25

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I have to type up reasoning for my votes so I might as well make a post in advance sharing not only my rationale for the way I voted but also my thoughts on other Pokémon.

:Latias: Ban. If I’m being completely honest, I didn’t expect her to be that bad considering how borderline she was in prior generations, but this Pokémon is probably the most broken threat we’ve got right now. Absurd bulk, potent special attack, and great natural speed even without investment makes this Mon far too overwhelming with its Calm Mind + Stored Power set alone, basically running over the entire tier rather easily even without screens. Move options like Aura Sphere or Substitute for the last move further add on to both its potency and unpredictability. Really just another Espathra. Tera versatility like Poison, Steel, Fairy, or Electric is the nail in the coffin making Latias able to change matchups just like that and turn checks into additional setup bait. Lyssa and many others cover this mon perfectly and I don’t want to repeat reasoning too much so check out prior posts on Latias. Easy Ban

:Iron Hands: Ban. Iron Hands is absurdly broken when not running shit ass Tera Fire. That simple. Ice Punch + STABs bitches almost all of the tier and it trades far too effectively to be a healthy presence in the tier. It’s broken for the same reasons that caused it to be banned 3 times already this gen that I just don’t feel like repeating anymore. 4 times was not in fact the charm and I don’t think it’s ever worth bothering with Iron Hands as long as Skeledirge isn’t here but even then it was controversial regardless. I honestly don’t know, maybe if Skeledirge drops and we enter the “No rises” period of the gen it can be checked out but that’s like a year from now so in the meantime Iron Hands can have fun in UUBL. Easy Ban

:Blaziken: Ban. If I’m being honest, I didn’t expect this to really drop to begin with until it hit me that Gouging Fire is a Pokémon in OU but regardless we generally lack the tools to reliably handle Blaziken at this stage in my opinion. Only needs one turn to really run away with games, and that can easily be achieved through forced switches or even more irritatingly a right tera. Tera Electric, Steel, or Dark all can deny revenge killing attempts and Blaziken can just run away with games effortlessly. Swords Dance + STABs + Knock Off is all that’s really needed to destroy this tier. I wouldn’t even say Flare Blitz is needed, Blaze Kick backed by the Life Orb boost is good enough STAB for me. In my own experience, it doesn’t need screens to be a deadly and overpowered presence that we should get rid of. It’s the least broken of the voting slate and I can definitely see a future where Blaziken ends the generation in UU but the metagame is not suited to handle Blaziken right now. I don’t actually know whether or not this gets banned but right now I vote Ban

:Light clay: This is by far the most difficult tiering decision I’ve had to make all gen. For starters, I don’t care if screens don’t add anything to the tier, I will only vote to ban it if I see that there are reasonably healthy Pokémon that are pushed over the edge by screens. As of now, while I am not very set on this, I think banning Light Clay and then reevaluating it is the best decision. Pokémon like Iron Moth, Latios, Kommo-o, Manaphy, and Garchomp all can potentially be healthy additions to the tier that involve offensive counterplay keeping them in line, but the presence of screens makes them more difficult to answer. I largely agree with the sentiments in Apple’s post, we see the vast disparity in calcs with Manaphy, something that has 0/0 bulk and low speed, that is now suddenly trading with checks like Sandy Shocks and Latios when screens are up. This is just one example of this, and I’ve become really convinced actually playing scenarios in my head where screens hinders counterplay attempts for a lot of threats that would be more reliable with it gone. However, I am not entirely set on a lot of these Pokémon being set in stone balanced without Light Clay. As such, I’d like to see Light Clay reevaluated in a month since by then we would’ve removed the egregiously broken stuff not reliant on screens by then. If this is too long and you just skipped to the end to see what I voted, I ultimately chose to vote Ban on Light Clay.

My thoughts on other controversial Pokémon in the tier:

:Ogerpon-Cornerstone: This is the only other Pokémon I’d ban as of now that I don’t think relies on screens to be overbearing. Swords Dance + STABs + Play Rough destroys almost the entire tier effortlessly and it just lacks any defensive counterplay. It even breaks past Steel-types like Jirachi and Hisuian Goodra relatively easily and you’ve got offensively checking as the only way to handle it, but Ogerpon has got useful enough bulk to where this is unreliable and Terastallization can help out in cases like eliminating a weakness to First Impression from Lokix and U-turn from Tornadus-T as well as a resistance to Hurricane from the latter as well as Iron Moth’s STABs just to name a few. It just slaughters the tier to an overwhelming extent that I really don’t think is healthy. Horn Leech creates annoying interactions with Sturdy as well akin to Ceruledge Bitter Blade issues. The loss of the item really doesn’t feel like that big of a deal. I’ll be pushing for action on this in the near future in a following slate after this vote.

:Ceruledge: I honestly haven’t really felt Ceruledge being that overwhelming as of now but I don’t deny how dumb it can be. Apart from bulky Garchomp and Tera Garganacl there isn’t defensive counterplay (you set up on Alomomola and Swampert is bad) to handle Ceruledge but strong Special Attackers + it’s low Speed have kept it at bay for now. Still, I’ll be keeping an eye on it as it seems plausible to do the same things it did in DLC 1.

:Greninja: This Mon is just very good but that’s it. It’s coverage is weak and if it’s not KOing what’s in front of it, Greninja is getting KOed back very often. It wants all of STABs + Ice Beam + Grass Knot + Water Shuriken and no matter what it goes with it wants something more. Reactive tera also does wonders in handling this Pokémon. It provides a good amount to the tier that I really like and so far I haven’t had troubles with it really which I hope to keep up. Like everything in this post I’ll still keep an eye on this Pokémon too.

:Kommo-o: This Mon unironically is mid as fuck. The only set worthwhile is Clangous Soul which is really vulnerable to revenge killing in a faster and stronger environment being both much slower than common Choice Scarf users in Terrakion, Keldeo, and Latios and losing 33% of its health clicking the setup move, thus putting it in range of priority. Mixed Stealth Rock sets seem fun and the defensive wall set that always gets overshadowed by setup sets can even find some cool applications. With Swords Dance just use Garchomp though; it’s only good for surprise value trying to hide as the Clangorous Soul set but you’re still a shitty version of Garchomp in the end. I wouldn’t be surprised if this wasn’t even included on a future slate but only time will tell.

:Garchomp: Day 1 I wanted this mf gone but I’ve really mellowed out on it. It’s fast and strong but it’s prone to being offensively checked fairly easily by even faster stuff and is pretty prone to being traded with or taken out with priority. It’s basically forced to use Stone Edge for Zapdos which means no Iron Head for Fairy-types. Reactive tera handles this guy pretty well on bulky walls like Rhyperior and Hydrapple in addition to normal checks like Rotom-Wash, Mandibuzz, Garganacl, and more. If Light Clay goes, counterplay improves even more and we can hopefully get an idea if Garchomp is here to stay.

:Iron Moth: Cool addition I’ve really come around on to the possibility of being balanced. There are two main sets in Agility + 3 Attacks Special Attack booster and 4 attacks Speed booster but both seem fine to me. The agility set lacks the ability to hit everything it wants. Currently, Dazzling Gleam is the main coverage move on it which covers the Latis, Garchomp, Kommo-o, Hoopa-U, and Iron Hands well. However, it’s left very susceptible to many metagame presences like Arcanine, Rhyperior, Garganacl, Manaphy, and Gastrodon to name a few. Should it begin to run Energy Ball, it now struggles into the aforementioned threats hit by Dazzling Gleam to a fair degree instead. The booster Speed set is potent but also lacks power at times and generally bulky stuff handles it well as well as others like Hisuian Goodra and Assault Vest Tornadus-T. Iron Moth also really feels tera reliant at times and is quite vulnerable to priority. I Would give it a bit longer to see how it does

:Latios: another cool mon who has a pretty fair shot of being balanced unlike his sister. Latios is very powerful but the lack of bulk compared to Latias is very noticeable and as long as you don’t sit around but rather play proactively it’s not that bad to handle. It’s kinda like how Hydriegon was in home/dlc 1. It’s super nice to have Latios though it can definitely provide a lot to the tier. Choice Specs are not that great if I’m being honest as is every choice breaker these days. Tera Fairy as a reactive tera is super common which hinders Draco Meteor from being spammed. I would also like to give this more time overall really.

:Garganacl: This Mon has been nonexistent for me so I can’t really comment on it but I do think this Mon has the potential to remain balanced even as the tier settles. Garganacl is a tera hog, I don’t believe that has changed, but last time certain tera types were too powerful and it had a fair amount of flexibility in what could be run. Only time will tell what will actually be viable however. For example, Tera Dragon seems a lot more flawed in a metagame with Latis, Garchomp, and Kommo-o, while Tera Water struggles into Zapdos, Sandy Shocks, Ogerpons, and more. Tera Fairy and Tera Ghost seem to stand out on paper but I’d really like to just see things play out before banning Garganacl because its Iron Defense set can do a lot of good in stat checking the tier while being able to be exploited still.

In general the tier is still super new but I think we’re making good progress already in cleaning it up. Old Pokémon like Sandy Shocks, Ogerpon, Volcanion, Gastrodon, Hoopa-Unbound, Lokix, Azumarill, Mandibuzz, Rotom-Wash, Scizor, Slowking, Okidogi, Iron Treads, Tornadus-T, Empoleon, Hisuian Goodra, Jirachi all feel great to use and I project they will have high viability going forward in the generation. There are also plenty of Pokémon like Rhyperior, Metagross, Suicune, Reuniclus, Cobalion, Terrakion, Deoxys-Defense, and Keldeo that feel fairly unexplored and with time as well as cleaning up the tier will they come to more prominence as they all have the potential to be strong Pokemon in the metagame. I hope this massive post didn’t bore you and I’m looking forward to even more productive discussion in this thread!
 
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"Stall insta loses to garchomp" "stall insta loses to ogerpon-cornerstone"

VS OGERPON CORNERSTONE
+2 252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Ogerpon-Cornerstone Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Tablets of Ruin Wo-Chien: 214-254 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Ogerpon-Cornerstone Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Tablets of Ruin Wo-Chien: 202-238 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Wo-Chien Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Cornerstone: 339-400 (112.6 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

VS GARCHOMP

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Tablets of Ruin Wo-Chien: 180-216 (48.1 - 57.7%) -- approx. 89.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Wo-Chien Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 324-382 (90.7 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Wo chien is ur solution. Wo chien is a great pokemon on stall, thanks to tablets of ruins not affecting foul play u lower their attack while using thier setup against them. Wo chien is also a great progress maker and a great progress denier and synergizes well with wish alomomola and heal bell blissey. Heal bell blissey is a great boon as it means u dont need to sleep as much and wo chien amazing physical walling power is a great solution to a team that wants smth for them.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2027027522?p24
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2026542652

Wo chien is a great pokemon that benefited from the rise of meow aka a pokemon that kinda fucked around with it and many pokemon do not want to switch around into it while benefiting from pokemon that it likes to see like alomomola being a great partner, amoonguss who can use helmet to deter u-turn, and blissey who can heal bell status or make it so that it doesnt rest as often
 
:Light Clay: DNB - Whenever Light Clay is put up on the chopping block, I find that the individual mons abusing screens or enabling screens abusers are more problematic than the screens playstyle as a whole. As an example, Magearna was a staple of all sorts of bulky screens teams as both an enabler and an abuser when it was legal in SV OU, only for those teams to become infinitely more manageable when Magearna got banned. Then again Light Clay is banned in like every lower tier, so what do I know?

:Latias:BAN - hi id like to order a setup sweeper that wins if you dont stop it in one or two turns (you cant because it got a free turn with some wack ass tera type you didnt go out of your way to prepare for)

:Blaziken:BAN - and could i get that with a side of buffalo wings

:Iron Hands:IDK - Admittedly I haven't seen much of hands on ladder so I can't say much about it other than I'd imagine it'd be problematic with screens.
 
:Light clay: / :Ninetales-Alola: BAN
Okay, do we need to discuss this? Light clay enables so many threats that just setup and win, and while people use something like defog :scizor:, it will never work because something like :blaziken: just switches in, does a funny dance and takes out 3 mons. the fact that defog on :scizor: is considered one of the most viable options shows how specifically tailored certain things have to be to prevent any of the many huge threats that dropped down. also :scizor: with defog just gets walled so hard by so many things, it hits like a paper tissue without swords dance, and bug stab + bpunch is so easily wallable. :zapdos: just switches in and laughs in its face. Pfangs :metagross: is a decent counter to screens but rest as recovery is so meh, especially when the HO team you use it against can just switch something in that can both kill it and setup on it. getting chip just ruins :metagross: as a screens counter. I think A9 should be banned over light clay because a. 5 turns can still be devastating when all your moves do half damage, especially with fast, volatile sweepers. and b. if light clay gets banned and a9 somehow drops to RU then its just gonna be a headache there too, just ban a9 please.

:Latias: BAN
Admittedly i feel less strongly about this one, but latias needs to go. It isnt difficult to get in, it isnt difficult to set up and it isnt difficult to sweep. A lot of the "checks" to latias just melt to some random tera shit because they expected the copy paste tera water/fairy set. you pretty much HAVE to have a psychic resist to even have a chance against this mon otherwise stored power just runs over you. Wanna use a dark type? Draining kiss heals them to full for free. Wanna use prior? Latias is bulky enough to withstand almost every priority move in UU. Latias dropped because of kingambit, and without a good sucker punch mon lati is just bonkers. the only thing that actually can beat latias is :Lokix: aka the most slept on mon in the tier. First Impression hurts af and if random ass tera is a problem, Tinted Lens means that it will still do more than enough chip anyway. Banded and Life Orb seem to be the best at doing this job, however stealth rock just makes this thing so hard to switch in, especially the LO variant when it takes 35% for clicking one move when latias just switched out. Without Stored Power Latias would be such a great addition to the tier, given the cm + 3 attacks sets are the perfect power level for UU but no. also banning stored power imo just makes the metagame better, its never used on anything except cheesy setup sweepers.

:Blaziken: DnB
Not gonna say much, this thing is pretty manageable. Veil is annoying and oppressive, but realistically this things fire stab is underwhelming to say the least, it either takes high jump kick level of recoil damage or deals underwhelming damage. without a fighting resist this thing goes off tho. I could see this thing being banned in the future but right now veil is the problem, not chicken.

:iron hands: BAN BAN BAN
No skeledirge, no hands. non-negotiable. supercell slam is so overrated, just use tpunch Red Card, send him off.

:ceruledge: BAN
This thing is just so filthy. Almost no defensive counterplay, only tera garg can handle it at all. behind veil this thing is a monster, and it cant even be burned before tera. this thing picks up a ko and forces tera. get him out honestle cba to type paragraphs on shit like this

:Ogerpon-Cornerstone: BAN
This thing is banworthy and you cannot convince me otherwise.

Name me a pokemon that checks rockpon. Metagross? thats strike one, knock off. Chesnaught? thats strike 2, play rough. Scizor? thats strike three, sturdy + tera defense boost. you dont know what coverage it runs, all are equally as common, you are guaranteed to lose 2 pokemon to this unless you have a surprise encore/taunt somewhere. WoChien is bullshit anyway, that thing is so shit otherwise you are not running it just to beat one pokemon. I have been convinced that Wo-Chien is good, probably the only counter rn. the only other TRUE check is coba, which has meh recovery and has to run 252/252+ just to not get 3hkod from full. oh yeah and superpower can ruin your day too. 100bp physical accurate rock type move, good speed tier (everything faster than it just gets ohkod) get him out. filthy with veil too, but not at all necessary.

Now for some one-liners

:Latios: BAN
Specs is incredible, flip turn was a huge buff. literally nothing can take it on consistently, every steel has shit recovery and every fairy cant handle luster purge. Cant see it staying around for long

:Garganacl: DnB
As a person who loves stall (i have no life), garg was surprisingly underwhelming for me. Switched in on a physical attacker, salt cured on a switch to a special attacker, switched out without recovering and just gets chipped over time. Recovering and making progress almost always cannot be done at the same time and leads to the team being broken down too easily.

:Garchomp: DnB
One word, Manageable. forced to run stone edge for zapdos, no iron head for coverage, only snowballs if handled poorly.

:Iron Moth: BAN
From top 10 to UU? what happened? New Toy Syndrome. Moth is broken as you would expect, sub + 3 attacks and 4 attack sets are all tearing the tier apart, come on.

:Kommo-o: DnB
This thing has been a ghost on the ladder, and im not surprised now. only one threatening set, predictable as fuck, cant even make shell smash on a protect kinda plays because its setup move takes almost as much health as belly drum. not even good

:manaphy: DnB
Pretty okay under webs/veil, otherwise not broken and not that good. people think rain hydration is good smh

:Greninja: DnB
Its just good, not great. Protean is ass. offensively checked crazy hard by keldeo who can cm sweep you like that. on that topic,

:Keldeo: DnB
Why is this up for debate bruh just use moongus if you hate it that much. whats it gonna do, icy wind?

:Necrozma: DnB
Very powerful, gonna be a UU staple this gen. nowhere near bannable tho

Finally finished yay

Also this isnt about bans but Pressure Specially Defensive Zapdos is crazy good in this meta with sub/roost/heatwave/discharge please use it its crazy good with all the 8pp stab moves running around from :Hydrapple: :Latios: (ish) :Greninja:

thanks for skimming through and not paying attention, my pleasure
 
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:Garchomp: DnB
One word, Manageable. forced to run stone edge for zapdos, no iron head for coverage, only snowballs if handled poorly.
Why would you need to use stone edge? Zapdos is setup fodder. Click swords dance as it misses a hurricane, then click scale shot and watch it drop.

I've honestly been kinda baffled that I'm the only one who thinks Garchomp is banworthy. This isn't even me being a bad team builder and losing to it constantly, this is from me using it on my own team. It's not just that it 6-0s every team on the ladder, although I've done that plenty often too. It's that scale shot does obscene damage to so many mons that it becomes an easy click as a setup move even before you bother with swords dance. You don't have to commit to a sweep every time. Absolutely shellackig Zapdos before they bring in their obviously tera fairy revenge killer, you can just switch out and setup again later because Garchomp is a tanky bastard and you probably only lost like 30% of your health setting up in the first place.

The fact people are panicking over Latias instead of some other threats in the meta is truly confounding me.
 

Tree69420

早上好中国、现在我有bing chilling!
is a Tiering Contributor
Why would you need to use stone edge? Zapdos is setup fodder. Click swords dance as it misses a hurricane, then click scale shot and watch it drop.

I've honestly been kinda baffled that I'm the only one who thinks Garchomp is banworthy. This isn't even me being a bad team builder and losing to it constantly, this is from me using it on my own team. It's not just that it 6-0s every team on the ladder, although I've done that plenty often too. It's that scale shot does obscene damage to so many mons that it becomes an easy click as a setup move even before you bother with swords dance. You don't have to commit to a sweep every time. Absolutely shellackig Zapdos before they bring in their obviously tera fairy revenge killer, you can just switch out and setup again later because Garchomp is a tanky bastard and you probably only lost like 30% of your health setting up in the first place.

The fact people are panicking over Latias instead of some other threats in the meta is truly confounding me.
IDK what your team is but garchomp is just so weak to moth and priority, scale shot makes it even weaker to priority. the real problem with the tier IMO is the oversaturation of OP threats and if we take a few out the rest will all be fine to deal with, and chomp adds so much to the tier as a bulky set, scarfer, and mixed wallbreaker whereas latias is just pure cheese that you need to run like 1 pokemon for and all the other ones suck
 
IDK what your team is but garchomp is just so weak to moth and priority, scale shot makes it even weaker to priority. the real problem with the tier IMO is the oversaturation of OP threats and if we take a few out the rest will all be fine to deal with, and chomp adds so much to the tier as a bulky set, scarfer, and mixed wallbreaker whereas latias is just pure cheese that you need to run like 1 pokemon for and all the other ones suck
Weak to Moth? Moth can't switch in, and you can just...switch out and now Moth doesn't have booster anymore. Also you resist its stabs. Even if it goes tera fairy dazzling gleam with booster speed, you get this:

132 SpA Tera Fairy Iron Moth Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 290-344 (81.2 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

::edit:: Also lets add more, like priority. Like banded Scizor after a scale shot defence drop.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 255-300 (71.4 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is before you go tera steel btw. Or how about life orb Greninja water shuriken?

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 160-195 (44.8 - 54.6%) -- approx. 18% chance to 2HKO

Here's the set I was running. It's genuinely nothing special. The only mons it really struggles with are Gweezing and absolutely max defence Mandibuzz.

Garchomp @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Scale Shot
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
 
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Here's the set I was running. It's genuinely nothing special. The only mons it really struggles with are Gweezing and absolutely max defence Mandibuzz.

Garchomp @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Scale Shot
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
that set gets demolished by say moltres/zapdos/mandi you have to scale shot twice and then most priority kills you
also your way of beating zapdos involves it missing a 70% move, what do you do the 70% of the times it hits? get traded or dont even ko.

also physdef zapdos almost always lives scale shot, always lives 4 hits and hits with hurricane for it to get rkilled after

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (25 BP) (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 335-395 (87.2 - 102.8%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO
 
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that set gets demolished by say moltres/zapdos/mandi you have to scale shot twice and then most priority kills you
also your way of beating zapdos involves it missing a 70% move, what do you do the 70% of the times it hits? get traded or dont even ko.

also physdef zapdos almost always lives scale shot, always lives 4 hits and hits with hurricane for it to get rkilled after

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (25 BP) (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 335-395 (87.2 - 102.8%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO
"Demolished by Zapdos" is pretty generous for a mon that at best leaves Garchomp on 50% health, that Garchomp doesn't even activate static on. Your counter needs absolute max defence to not get OHKO, does maybe 50% back, and doesn't stop it getting to +2 +1. That's not a counter by any stretch of the term. Also once they bring in the revenge mon, you can just...switch out? It's Garchomp. It's tanky. It can come back in and do it all again. It has 130 base attack with stabs of either 100 or 95/125, you don't need to click swords dance every time. That scizor you brought in to revenge isn't hard to wall on my end exactly.

Please if you're going to post answers to Garchomp, pick something that actually does answer it. Moltres is good (until tera fire/stone edge but whatever, we're talking tera steel iron head). I haven't seen much Moltres, but any meta where Scizor is prominent means there's always a place for Moltres. The actual best answer to Garchomp that is commonly run is Alolatails. You're faster, immune to scale shot, run encore, can OHKO without investment, and even a predicted iron head does max 99% due to the snow defence boost. Looking forward to the light clay ban so Garchomp can be even free-er and I have more incentive to run tera fire or stone edge to invalidate the more common answers.

No answers to Wo-Chien tho, because Wo is just built different
 
"Demolished by Zapdos" is pretty generous for a mon that at best leaves Garchomp on 50% health, that Garchomp doesn't even activate static on. Your counter needs absolute max defence to not get OHKO, does maybe 50% back, and doesn't stop it getting to +2 +1. That's not a counter by any stretch of the term. Also once they bring in the revenge mon, you can just...switch out? It's Garchomp. It's tanky. It can come back in and do it all again. It has 130 base attack with stabs of either 100 or 95/125, you don't need to click swords dance every time. That scizor you brought in to revenge isn't hard to wall on my end exactly.

Please if you're going to post answers to Garchomp, pick something that actually does answer it. Moltres is good (until tera fire/stone edge but whatever, we're talking tera steel iron head). I haven't seen much Moltres, but any meta where Scizor is prominent means there's always a place for Moltres. The actual best answer to Garchomp that is commonly run is Alolatails. You're faster, immune to scale shot, run encore, can OHKO without investment, and even a predicted iron head does max 99% due to the snow defence boost. Looking forward to the light clay ban so Garchomp can be even free-er and I have more incentive to run tera fire or stone edge to invalidate the more common answers.

No answers to Wo-Chien tho, because Wo is just built different
i mentioned moltres, only used zap as an example because you mentioned how it "sets up on it"
demolished was too far tho mb
also chomp at 50% is so much less threatening, sure you switch out and wall it but you cant run forever
and zapdos doesnt "at best" leave it at 50%, at best it kills it but because you were so set on hurricane missing i gave chomp the benefit of one of the two hurricanes missing
and fr wo-chien is built different i have been converted
 
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i mentioned moltres, only used zap as an example because you mentioned how it "sets up on it"
252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- approx. 3HKO

0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 67-79 (18.7 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO

On a defensive mon that lacks lefties and only has 8 roost pp, that damage is significant. Burn doesn’t matter cause tera fire.

Also both zapdos and moltres check more than 1 pokemon so somebody that knows what they’re doing can chip down these birds and suddenly they’re in chomp range since they can’t heal with lefties. If they managed to get knocked off at some point it’s over.

It’s the reason I use weezing galar as my main chomp check since it can use lefties and pain split to heal and put chomp in range of priority by force, and that’s if they don’t tera/have a different tera type from fire.
 
252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- approx. 3HKO

0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 67-79 (18.7 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO

On a defensive mon that lacks lefties and only has 8 roost pp, that damage is significant. Burn doesn’t matter cause tera fire.

Also both zapdos and moltres check more than 1 pokemon so somebody that knows what they’re doing can chip down these birds and suddenly they’re in chomp range since they can’t heal with lefties. If they managed to get knocked off at some point it’s over.

It’s the reason I use weezing galar as my main chomp check since it can use lefties and pain split to heal and put chomp in range of priority by force, and that’s if they don’t tera/have a different tera type from fire.
you make a good point
i havent come across tera fire yet, but it seems decent to prevent burns
i still dont think that makes chomp bannable, just maybe birds arent the best check, not forced to run stone edge
 
Yooo, this is my first post on here

light-clay.png
Ban
Haven't loss much to this (yet), but it makes it quite hard to see which mons are actually broken since it enables so many of them. Also this item has very little counterplay as the only way to stop it is with ttar and after ttar gets a kill, they can just send in a-tales and get screens for free
latias.png
DNB
This thing is not even good. On cm sets it's outclassed by latios as 130 spdef is completely unneccessary when you're gonna be boosting it up further with calm mind. Latios can also bluff other sets like specs or soul dew to get free setup opportunity aswell as having the ability to be more immedietly threatening with 130 spa. Even if u want a more spdef, you can just ev latios for that while still maintaining teh unpredicatability advantage
blaziken.png
DNB
Clicks sd, loses more than half it's health. Clicks flare blitz, loses half it's health to recoil+lo. Clicks cc, now ur sweep is over since you get kicked out afterwards by even resisted hits. They have mola? Sd then cc, and get ohkoed by flip turn like a clown
iron-hands.png
DNB
Not as strong as people hyped it up to be, you can beat it by hitting it turn 1 as it sds, then going to a moderately fast fighting resist so that it doesnt heal that much, hit it again and if hands does not die then ur fighting resist is prolly dead, but after this u can just throw in any decently strong mon to finish the job
 
Suprisingly, I've found more success with this Kommo-o set than Clangorous Soul + Boomburst

the clanger.gif


Kommo-o @ Clear Amulet
Ability: Soundproof
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Close Combat / Drain Punch
- Iron Head / Earthquake
- Dragon Dance

I find DD better than Clangorous because you don't kill yourself or leave yourself open to priority, screens are preferred so kommo can set up easier as well, soundproof also works so you can't get your boosts roared away (kinda sad kommo's super underrated rn)
 

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