SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

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Nice so just switch about 144 times until all six paraswag mons have no more Swagger left, assuming you haven't died to rocks or Foul Play, you win!
Yep, basically thats it.

Is not fun I know, but neither is playing against a strong player using a properly build stall team.

Like I said before, we are opening a can of worms if we are going to start banning things not because they are OP but because a bunch of people complained about them. I don't think people realize the kind of precedence this will set.

I remember back in Gen IV when people used shoddybattle and the standard gender option for pokemons was male. At some point some people started using defensive female pokemon with attract, and this strategy actually worked quite fine.

Did attract got banned? No. People just started using female pokemon, to the point where the attract player was no longer winning most of its matches. the metagame adapted. It can be the same with Swaggplay. Those teams are doing well because right now so many people are unprepared against them, but eventually people would simply adapt. Just putting 0 Atk IVs on defensive pokemon would make a huge difference.
 
its got scrafty syndrome lol. Also, if people are giving out about the 50/50 chance, ban confusion altogether, its just a status, the strategy only works well against physical attackers, and if your team is weak to it, its your fault, my team is incredibly weak to m-mawile, but it doesn't matter, I can still beat one because I'm a decent player, most people who use pranksterswag are bad players. If you can't find your way past their strategy, its not because of luck, its because your team doesn't like swagger.
Yeah, my team is pretty weak to mega mawile as well. I do carry a will-o-wisp for it but that move always seem to miss when I need it the most. Even so I have manage to out smart people using it and win but I have also lost to it due to how powerful it can be. In my case I've never really had trouble fighting people using this strategy I do have a pokemon that can take the hit like its nothing even at max 6 foul play and I have a pokemon that carry heal bell. Its an annoying pokemon but not really that much of a problem.

I'm definite against the banning of said strategy because its not OP just very annoying. If they do something about it I think they should either not allow more than one prankster pokemon or change the PP of Swagger from 24 to 8 so people can't just spam the move.
 
As to show that it takes skill to play, and it can be played against if you know what you are doing and your teams is not just a bunch of physical attackers smashed together.
I see no skill in that video, just spamming swagger and t-wave and a bunch of switching. Maybe I'm missing something.

And unfortunately, swagger is not neutered by female pokemon.

Wait. That was weird.
 

NixHex

Uangaana kasuttortunga!
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I'm going to give a breakdown on WHY SwagPlay is being suspected because some people just don't seem to get it. I'll attempt to address the common arguments against banning that I've seen both in this thread and on the Facebook discussion.

So why are SwagPlay or Prankster Swag bans being considered to be on the chopping block?
Prankster + Swagger creates immediate danger for your opponent, if not also for the user if they can't hit you with physical attacks anyway. Even something like Rotom-W still has to hope that it hits you while you continue swaggering it. Sure, it won't eat itself up immediately like physically oriented attackers but your Prankster still has an opportunity to sub up while Rotom switches or hits itself. It creates a very low-probability coin flip situation that makes it incredibly hard for your opponent to consistently hit you. Now, if they DO break through the confusion and somehow manage to sweep your whole team (probably not going to happen with the next prankster coming in), they beat almost unbeatable odds. In either situation, skill is completely irrelevant.

Common arguments for keeping Prankster SwagPlay
1. Confusion is an inherent mechanic of the game.
This was mainly on Facebook and is a horrendous argument. Smogon is not looking to change game mechanics! The Sleep Clause mod is a one-time exception to this rule.

2. If we ban SwagPlay, then we'll end up banning hax and what's next, Light Ball Pikachu?
Another common Facebook variant. These are slippery slope fallacies and have no place in a serious debate environment. Glad we have those two out of the way!

3. Magic Bounce exists.
This is where things get subjective but the selection of Magic Bounce users is rather slim. Espeon is a cool niche mon but is not really suited to handle a team with Foul Play. Sure, it's not THAT strong but it's pretty easy to chip away at it. I've seen others in the thread say that Foul Play does around 25% and I'll take their word for it. Xatu has an even smaller niche than Espeon and is only used for Magic Bounce. Absol has to M-Evolve first so it can't switch in on Swagger.

4. Lum Berry exists.
It works one time so you can't even switch in without getting re-swagged. Not much else to say about this.

5. Just use Blissey and stall out Prankster. Just include (niche Pokemon / move that you would never ever use).
Yeah that's a lot of fun. Just waste 200+ turns stalling out entire movesets of ~4 Pokemon. Let's not encourage hour long ladder matches please!! Also, no one wants to build a team around countering swagplay. It restricts your team building for something that you're not always encountering on the ladder.

6. It's just as luck-based for your opponent as it is for you.
This is actually not helping your case because you are admitting that the entire match is based around luck. Which is not a far cry from the truth! This complete reliance on luck totally undermines the concept of skill.

7. Yeah but Focus Blast / Rough Play / Sleep Powder / Leech Seed / Toxic / Will-o / Stone Edge / Fire Blast / Hydro Pump can miss and cause bad luck situations also.
Except both players understand those risks going into a match. Terrakion loves that STAB Stone Edge and Rotom-W adores Hydro Pump for coverage. Rotom-W enjoys crippling physical attackers with Will-o. Focus Blast makes Tyranitar wary of switching in on Gengar / (insert Psychic-type here). Those moves can miss and the opponent gets to sigh in relieve but when they hit, they can be devastating.

I know I can expand on these arguments but I'm trying to keep this as short as possible. What I want you to take away from this, though, is that SwagPlay creates a lucky / unlucky situation for both players. It's incredibly easy and cheap for the user (hence less skill), and frustrating and nigh uncounterable without niche counters, making your opponent's skill become irrelevant. Less skill vs. no room for skill.
 
Prankster+Confusion can be beat by switching.

Prankster+Confusion+ THUNDERWAVE = Switching is not the best idea.

Is everyone really this dense? The basis of Swagplay relies on Parafusion to begin with. It's what makes the strategy potent. Take out Thunderwave and the strategy is MAGNITUDES less effective.

Make Thunderwave Illegal to use if used on conjunction with Swagger. Problem solved.
this is what should happen if Something MUST be banned, pranksterswag with foul play can be used to do more damage with foul play.
 

Karxrida

Corruption of Shadows
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
'But it has no counters!!!'

'hey wait guys, what about [insert counter].'

'nah, i don't want to use that, BECAUSE IT'S COMPLETE SHIT.'

Every Suspect Test thread ever, in a nutshell.
Fixed.

Seriously, though, just ban Prankster + Swagger. The only reason why this strategy works is because of the priority given by Prankster, and banning both together is the easiest way to fix this mess.
 
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Prankster+Confusion can be beat by switching.

Prankster+Confusion+ THUNDERWAVE = Switching is not the best idea.

Is everyone really this dense? The basis of Swagplay relies on Parafusion to begin with. It's what makes the strategy potent. Take out Thunderwave and the strategy is MAGNITUDES less effective.

Make Thunderwave Illegal to use if used on conjunction with Swagger. Problem solved.
And if your opponent is not a complete idiot and has set up Hazards?

Sure. Keep switching. You'll keep taking residual damage over time.
 
You're using this video as a reason it shouldn't be banned? That looks excruciating.
The video shows that the strategy does require skill. It is very annoying to play against it but a stall team used by a skilled player is even more annoying to play against. So that can’t be the basis of banning the playstyle.
 

Age of Kings

of the Ash Legion
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Prankster+Confusion can be beat by switching.

Prankster+Confusion+ THUNDERWAVE = Switching is not the best idea.

Is everyone really this dense? The basis of Swagplay relies on Parafusion to begin with. It's what makes the strategy potent. Take out Thunderwave and the strategy is MAGNITUDES less effective.

Make Thunderwave Illegal to use if used on conjunction with Swagger. Problem solved.
No it really can't, you are the clueless one. Switch out, get hit by Foul Play on the switch, get confused again, the chance game begins all over again. Thunder Wave is not required to make it work although it certainly helps. Swagger affects everything and there are many more Pokemon immune to paralysis than confusion.

Oh and entry hazards as mentioned
 
I'm going to give a breakdown on WHY SwagPlay is being suspected because some people just don't seem to get it. I'll attempt to address the common arguments against banning that I've seen both in this thread and on the Facebook discussion.

So why are SwagPlay or Prankster Swag bans being considered to be on the chopping block?
Prankster + Swagger creates immediate danger for your opponent, if not also for the user if they can't hit you with physical attacks anyway. Even something like Rotom-W still has to hope that it hits you while you continue swaggering it. Sure, it won't eat itself up immediately like physically oriented attackers but your Prankster still has an opportunity to sub up while Rotom switches or hits itself. It creates a very low-probability coin flip situation that makes it incredibly hard for your opponent to consistently hit you. Now, if they DO break through the confusion and somehow manage to sweep your whole team (probably not going to happen with the next prankster coming in), they beat almost unbeatable odds. In either situation, skill is completely irrelevant.

Common arguments for keeping Prankster SwagPlay
1. Confusion is an inherent mechanic of the game.
This was mainly on Facebook and is a horrendous argument. Smogon is not looking to change game mechanics! The Sleep Clause mod is a one-time exception to this rule.

2. If we ban SwagPlay, then we'll end up banning hax and what's next, Light Ball Pikachu?
Another common Facebook variant. These are slippery slope fallacies and have no place in a serious debate environment. Glad we have those two out of the way!

3. Magic Bounce exists.
This is where things get subjective but the selection of Magic Bounce users is rather slim. Espeon is a cool niche mon but is not really suited to handle a team with Foul Play. Sure, it's not THAT strong but it's pretty easy to chip away at it. I've seen others in the thread say that Foul Play does around 25% and I'll take their word for it. Xatu has an even smaller niche than Espeon and is only used for Magic Bounce. Absol has to M-Evolve first so it can't switch in on Swagger.

4. Lum Berry exists.
It works one time so you can't even switch in without getting re-swagged. Not much else to say about this.

5. Just use Blissey and stall out Prankster. Just include (niche Pokemon / move that you would never ever use).
Yeah that's a lot of fun. Just waste 200+ turns stalling out entire movesets of ~4 Pokemon. Let's not encourage hour long ladder matches please!! Also, no one wants to build a team around countering swagplay. It restricts your team building for something that you're not always encountering on the ladder.

6. It's just as luck-based for your opponent as it is for you.
This is actually not helping your case because you are admitting that the entire match is based around luck. Which is not a far cry from the truth! This complete reliance on luck totally undermines the concept of skill.

7. Yeah but Focus Blast / Rough Play / Sleep Powder / Leech Seed / Toxic / Will-o / Stone Edge / Fire Blast / Hydro Pump can miss and cause bad luck situations also.
Except both players understand those risks going into a match. Terrakion loves that STAB Stone Edge and Rotom-W adores Hydro Pump for coverage. Rotom-W enjoys crippling physical attackers with Will-o. Focus Blast makes Tyranitar wary of switching in on Gengar / (insert Psychic-type here). Those moves can miss and the opponent gets to sigh in relieve but when they hit, they can be devastating.

I know I can expand on these arguments but I'm trying to keep this as short as possible. What I want you to take away from this, though, is that SwagPlay creates a lucky / unlucky situation for both players. It's incredibly easy and cheap for the user (hence less skill), and frustrating and nigh uncounterable without niche counters, making your opponent's skill become irrelevant. Less skill vs. no room for skill.
this post here has made me give in slightly, this might sound complex, but the ban should be only one pranksterswag+thunderwave per team. In other words, sleep clause for pranksterswag in reverse
 
No it really can't, you are the clueless one. Switch out, get hit by Foul Play on the switch, get confused again, the chance game begins all over again. Thunder Wave is not required to make it work although it certainly helps. Swagger affects everything and there are many more Pokemon immune to paralysis than confusion.

Oh and entry hazards as mentioned
chance is part of pokemon. take out what you argued about chance and you have stalling. i will admit whole teams of pranksterswag is bullcrap but as just one mon per team is okay and somewhat easy to handle
 
I'm going to give a breakdown on WHY SwagPlay is being suspected because some people just don't seem to get it. I'll attempt to address the common arguments against banning that I've seen both in this thread and on the Facebook discussion.

So why are SwagPlay or Prankster Swag bans being considered to be on the chopping block?
Prankster + Swagger creates immediate danger for your opponent, if not also for the user if they can't hit you with physical attacks anyway. Even something like Rotom-W still has to hope that it hits you while you continue swaggering it. Sure, it won't eat itself up immediately like physically oriented attackers but your Prankster still has an opportunity to sub up while Rotom switches or hits itself. It creates a very low-probability coin flip situation that makes it incredibly hard for your opponent to consistently hit you. Now, if they DO break through the confusion and somehow manage to sweep your whole team (probably not going to happen with the next prankster coming in), they beat almost unbeatable odds. In either situation, skill is completely irrelevant.

Common arguments for keeping Prankster SwagPlay
1. Confusion is an inherent mechanic of the game.
This was mainly on Facebook and is a horrendous argument. Smogon is not looking to change game mechanics! The Sleep Clause mod is a one-time exception to this rule.

2. If we ban SwagPlay, then we'll end up banning hax and what's next, Light Ball Pikachu?
Another common Facebook variant. These are slippery slope fallacies and have no place in a serious debate environment. Glad we have those two out of the way!

3. Magic Bounce exists.
This is where things get subjective but the selection of Magic Bounce users is rather slim. Espeon is a cool niche mon but is not really suited to handle a team with Foul Play. Sure, it's not THAT strong but it's pretty easy to chip away at it. I've seen others in the thread say that Foul Play does around 25% and I'll take their word for it. Xatu has an even smaller niche than Espeon and is only used for Magic Bounce. Absol has to M-Evolve first so it can't switch in on Swagger.

4. Lum Berry exists.
It works one time so you can't even switch in without getting re-swagged. Not much else to say about this.

5. Just use Blissey and stall out Prankster. Just include (niche Pokemon / move that you would never ever use).
Yeah that's a lot of fun. Just waste 200+ turns stalling out entire movesets of ~4 Pokemon. Let's not encourage hour long ladder matches please!! Also, no one wants to build a team around countering swagplay. It restricts your team building for something that you're not always encountering on the ladder.

6. It's just as luck-based for your opponent as it is for you.
This is actually not helping your case because you are admitting that the entire match is based around luck. Which is not a far cry from the truth! This complete reliance on luck totally undermines the concept of skill.

7. Yeah but Focus Blast / Rough Play / Sleep Powder / Leech Seed / Toxic / Will-o / Stone Edge / Fire Blast / Hydro Pump can miss and cause bad luck situations also.
Except both players understand those risks going into a match. Terrakion loves that STAB Stone Edge and Rotom-W adores Hydro Pump for coverage. Rotom-W enjoys crippling physical attackers with Will-o. Focus Blast makes Tyranitar wary of switching in on Gengar / (insert Psychic-type here). Those moves can miss and the opponent gets to sigh in relieve but when they hit, they can be devastating.

I know I can expand on these arguments but I'm trying to keep this as short as possible. What I want you to take away from this, though, is that SwagPlay creates a lucky / unlucky situation for both players. It's incredibly easy and cheap for the user (hence less skill), and frustrating and nigh uncounterable without niche counters, making your opponent's skill become irrelevant. Less skill vs. no room for skill.
During this whole thing no one suggested making Thunderwave illegal if Swagger and/or FoulPlay are already in the moveset. Without Thunderwave this tactic is severely underwhelming. Annoying, yes, but you can reliably combat it with Taunt and/or switching if the opponent cannot use Thunderwave, which is the only thing keeping this particular tactic/gimmick/ relevant.

I knew there was a reason I stopped lurking the forums >.<
 
Yeah, my team is pretty weak to mega mawile as well. I do carry a will-o-wisp for it but that move always seem to miss when I need it the most. Even so I have manage to out smart people using it and win but I have also lost to it due to how powerful it can be. In my case I've never really had trouble fighting people using this strategy I do have a pokemon that can take the hit like its nothing even at max 6 foul play and I have a pokemon that carry heal bell. Its an annoying pokemon but not really that much of a problem.

I'm definite against the banning of said strategy because its not OP just very annoying. If they do something about it I think they should either not allow more than one prankster pokemon or change the PP of Swagger from 24 to 8 so people can't just spam the move.
you and me should meet up sometime. Every single thing you said I was thinking myself (apart from PP limitations) and I 100% agree with you
 

Age of Kings

of the Ash Legion
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
chance is part of pokemon. take out what you argued about chance and you have stalling. i will admit whole teams of pranksterswag is bullcrap but as just one mon per team is okay and somewhat easy to handle
Everyone knows chance is a part of Pokemon. The issue people have with Prankster+Swagger are the very few counterplay opportunities versus other strategies. Almost nothing is immune to confusion, almost nothing can outspeed it when backed by Prankster. Where is the counterplay? Regular confusion is fine, hell paralysis is fine too. Read this post again, if you don't get it then I have nothing more to say to you because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about and you're not interested in arguing logically.

Ok for those people comparing Prankster + confusion to paraflinch, here is why it's a terrible comparison and you should really stop:

1. As mentioned, nearly every Electric type puts a full stop to paraflinch. You don't even have to run anything special, by virtue of being an Electric type you stop it due to immunity to paralysis and resistance to Air Slash/Iron Head. It helps that quite a few outrun Togekiss and/or Jirachi. Only Own Tempo and Magic Bounce Pokemon don't get hit by priority confusion, and that has problems. Own Tempo Pokemon are generally unviable or have a better ability and Prankster users with Swagger have Foul Play to crush Magic Bounce users. Mega Absol is the sole Pokemon that does not falter in these categories, but its general viability is dubious and I have to sacrifice a Mega Slot for just one thing. Everything else cannot avoid getting confusion or have to sacrifice a Lum Berry or something for it.

2. You cannot be flinched if you outspeed the Pokemon. Almost nothing can "outspeed" priority confusion. It is extremely difficult to stop it from going out, which is definitely not the case with paraflinch.

3. Air Slash/Iron Head do not increase in damage against a paralyzed target, Foul Play does a large chunk to anything that has been Swagger'd. Your argument that "just like every special or defensive Pokemon can take many swagger hits to the face if they were unlucky" falls flat because of the SwagPlay strategy. There is no guarantee you can kill them before they kill you. Swagger by itself doesn't kill, it is a means to an end.
 
Everyone knows chance is a part of Pokemon. The issue people have with Prankster+Swagger are the very few counterplay opportunities versus other strategies. Almost nothing is immune to confusion, almost nothing can outspeed it when backed by Prankster. Where is the counterplay? Regular confusion is fine, hell paralysis is fine too. Read this post again, if you don't get it then I have nothing more to say to you because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about and you're not interested in arguing logically.
Okay. What I want you to do, is go use Klefki,Liepard, Thunderous I, etc with nothing but FoulPlay and Swagger +2 Filler moves. You are not allowed to use Thunderwave/Glare/Stun Spore/Or anything that causes paralysis.

Report back to me how succesful you are when you can't parafusion anymore and your opponent has nothing to worry about since they can now freely switch and PPStall out Swagger (If they are patient enough to do so).
 
Okay. What I want you to do, is go use Klefki,Liepard, Thunderous I, etc with nothing but FoulPlay and Swagger +2 Filler moves. You are not allowed to use Thunderwave/Glare/Stun Spore/Or anything that causes paralysis.

Report back to me how succesful you are when you can't parafusion anymore and your opponent has nothing to worry about since they can now freely switch and PPStall out Swagger (If they are patient enough to do so).
To be fair, the SwagPlay user could use entry hazards to punish switching.
 
Okay. What I want you to do, is go use Klefki,Liepard, Thunderous I, etc with nothing but FoulPlay and Swagger +2 Filler moves. You are not allowed to use Thunderwave/Glare/Stun Spore/Or anything that causes paralysis.

Report back to me how succesful you are when you can't parafusion anymore and your opponent has nothing to worry about since they can now freely switch and PPStall out Swagger (If they are patient enough to do so).
Problem 1: You forget about Hazards.

Problem 2: And if you're getting hit with Foul Play constantly on the switches?

Damages from both of those are going to add up. Even moreso with Steel no longer resisting Foul Play.
 
The basis of SwagPlay relies on Parafusion or the Thunderwave+Swagger combination. Get rid of Thunderwave and the strategy is much much more manageable to deal with. If you stay in and you know they might have Swagger and you aren't carrying a lum berry then you deserve whatever happens to you in that game.
 
I see no skill in that video, just spamming swagger and t-wave and a bunch of switching. Maybe I'm missing something.

And unfortunately, swagger is not neutered by female pokemon.

Wait. That was weird.
We are talking about 2300 rating here, there was obviously skill involved. If my mind works properly, I think I actually got to the top 10 in the ubers ladder with that team.

Anyway, here is why skill was required: First his giratina removed my hazards, and my hazards setter (deoxys) could not do anything to it because it doesn't have foul play. At the begining he tried to switch on ferrothron on the foul play to make me take iron barbs damage. When that became predictable, he simply started switching between regenerator ho-oh and leftovers ferrothron in order to stall my swagger pp. This would have worked, so I absolutely needed to have hazards on the field to ensure his strategy wouldn't work. So what I had to do was to force a giratina switch in and kill it with arceus. I sent the arceus on a predicted Dialga switch in, sword danced, killed giratina and kept the rocks on the field. After that the battle was much easier, but it was still a difficult one.

The point is there are smart ways to play both with and against the team. Is not as skill-less as people say.
 
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Age of Kings

of the Ash Legion
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Okay. What I want you to do, is go use Klefki,Liepard, Thunderous I, etc with nothing but FoulPlay and Swagger +2 Filler moves. You are not allowed to use Thunderwave/Glare/Stun Spore/Or anything that causes paralysis.

Report back to me how succesful you are when you can't parafusion anymore and your opponent has nothing to worry about since they can now freely switch and PPStall out Swagger (If they are patient enough to do so).
Cool, I can run Sub or screens. Liepard or Thundurus can run Taunt in the last slot.

My challenge to you, should you accept, is to run Magician Klefki or Limber Liepard with Foul Play/Thunder Wave/Swagger/Sub. Defiant Thundurus or Thundurus-T can run anything they like in lieu of Foul Play. Let me know how that works for you if parafusion is "so broken" with Prankster out of the equation.
 
The basis of SwagPlay relies on Parafusion or the Thunderwave+Swagger combination. Get rid of Thunderwave and the strategy is much much more manageable to deal with. If you stay in and you know they might have Swagger and you aren't carrying a lum berry then you deserve whatever happens to you in that game.
So carry a Lum Berry on every Pokemon even if its not optimal for the sake of a single troll team/set. Lets not forget Lum Berry works only once unless its a Harvest using Pokemon.
 
To be fair, the SwagPlay user could use entry hazards to punish switching.
So Defog and Rapid Spin is no longer a thing now?
Problem 1: You forget about Hazards.

Problem 2: And if you're getting hit with Foul Play constantly on the switches?

Damages from both of those are going to add up. Even moreso with Steel no longer resisting Foul Play.
Defog and Rapid Spin are no longer a thing?

Mandibuzz laughs at Foul Play and carries defog. Pretty sure Umbreon is also pretty good to have with the Synchronize+Wish (Wish for the spinners/defoggers of course, mainly Mandibuz if you aren't carrying Roost for some odd reason.).
 
Everyone knows chance is a part of Pokemon. The issue people have with Prankster+Swagger are the very few counterplay opportunities versus other strategies. Almost nothing is immune to confusion, almost nothing can outspeed it when backed by Prankster. Where is the counterplay? Regular confusion is fine, hell paralysis is fine too. Read this post again, if you don't get it then I have nothing more to say to you because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about and you're not interested in arguing logically.
I understand where your coming from, I'm not going to argue back because I'll probably look stupid. Although extremely minor, swagger hasn't got 100% accuracy, so that's something tiny I suppose, lol I'm joking don't take notice of the accuracy in just a comedic failure. But one thing I will say is: you only need one turn of hitting through to kill the klefki. But if it runs sub you need two turns. Also, weak argument: any special attackers can revenge kill since its just regular confusion to them and klefki can't really hurt most of them. Anywho, I'm gonna go to sleep before I embarrass myself
 
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