Project SS OU - Victim of the Week - Not hosted anymore

[myself12]

Counter:
Check:

 

[3cho]

Counter:
Check:

 

[The Dragon Master]

Counter -
Check -

 

[SetsuSetsuna]

Ty to everyone who voted, the winners this time are

Counter: Physdef by 658Greninja
Check: by myself12 and by SunCooled​

Full Results

Counter
4
2
2
2
1
Others: 0

Check
4
4
1

Now for the Victim of the Week for week 55 we have Calm Mind Clefable


Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Soft-Boiled
- Calm Mind
​

This Clefable manages to both hit hard and take some decently strong hits. Thunder lets it hit otherwise annoying pokemon such as Toxapex, while being able to get a paralysis on Heatran. This set pops up on some spike stack teams such as Zaza's CM Clefable + Hazard Support. How can we deal with this pokemon?

Deadline for submission will be May 13th 2022 at 11:59 EST​

 

[Forest Guardian]

Reserving heavy slam tran

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Earth Power
- Heavy Slam

Tran is a **check**. While yes, Tran can get paralyzed it simply switches in and clicks heavy slam twice and the chance to both hit thunder which is 70% accurate and para is quite low. Tran can also taunt clef making it unable to set up or heal.
This will either force a switch after a heavy slam which will dent clef that it won't be able to take two hits from much until and unless it switches into a Draco or some other really weak attack.

0- Atk Heatran Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Clefable: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 103-121 (26.6 - 31.3%) -- 15% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 clef doesn't do much with thunder either.

 

[shawk*+:)]

Ty to everyone who voted, the winners this time are

Counter: Physdef by 658Greninja
Check: by myself12​

Full Results

Counter
4
2
2
2
1
Others: 0

Check
4
4
1

View attachment 424075

Now for the Victim of the Week for week 55 we have Calm Mind Clefable


Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Soft-Boiled
- Calm Mind
​

This Clefable manages to both hit hard and take some decently strong hits. Thunder lets it hit otherwise annoying pokemon such as Toxapex, while being able to get a paralysis on heatran. This set pops up on some spike stack teams such as Zaza's CM Clefable + Hazard Support. How can we deal with this pokemon?

Deadline for submission will be May 13th 2022 at 11:59 EST​

<- yea that's it. But inorder to actually answer the question:
Melmetal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 128 HP / 116 Atk / 252 SpD / 12 Spe
Careful Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch

Yes, cm clef can threaten a paralysis with thunder but even at +6 you're not killing AV Melm. Melm on the other hand can chuck that pink puffball back to wherever it came from.

+6 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Thunder vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 247-291 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(set on the calc)

 

[myself12]

reserving nidoking


Nidoking @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower

Nidoking outspeeds and OHKOs Clefable with Sludge Wave. Thunder does nothing, while Moonblast is resisted. It can switch into a +1 Clefable and kill it, but after Clefable so it's a check.

Offensive Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 476-562 (120.8 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 315-374 (79.9 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive Calcs:
0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 81-95 (26.7 - 31.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 121-142 (39.9 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[SunCooled]

reserving nihilego

Nihilego @ Power Herb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 80 HP / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Grass Knot
- Meteor Beam
- Thunderbolt / Power Gem
- Sludge Wave​

The UU Jellyfish is a counter to CM Clefable. Capable of switching in as Clefable sets up a CM and not being 2HKO'd from a pair of +1 Thunders, while dishing out some serious damage. Should Clefable choose to go for the immediate damage instead, Nihilego forces it out while retaining plenty of HP to switch in again later.

Defensive Calcs vs +0

0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 51-60 (13.4 - 15.8%) -- possible 7HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Thunder vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 79-94 (20.8 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Defensive Calcs vs +1

+1 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 75-90 (19.7 - 23.7%) -- possible 5HKO
+1 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Thunder vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 117-139 (30.8 - 36.6%) -- 68.6% chance to 3HKO

Offensive Calcs vs +0

176 SpA Nihilego Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
176 SpA Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 318-374 (80.7 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Offensive Calcs vs +1

176 SpA Nihilego Meteor Beam vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
176 SpA Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 212-252 (53.8 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Power Gem can be run over Thunderbolt to guarantee the Weavile KO if you're forced to switch out after burning the Power Herb, as well as dealing much stronger hits to Zapdos, Blacephalon, Volcarona, and Dragonite. Of course, this is run at the cost of becoming much more vulnerable to the many Waters roaming the tier who don't fear Grass Knot.

 

[Red Raven]

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SpD / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Lash Out
- Stone Edge
- Heavy Slam
- Fire Punch / Assurance

Band Tyranitar is a check to Clefable. With heavy slam, Godzilla squishes the blob into nothingness and the 56 spe evs allows it to outrun Clef. In an emergency, it can also switch into a +1 moonblast before crushing Clefable but only once

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Clefable: 408-482 (103.5 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 64 HP / 136 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 221-265 (61.9 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Smashburn]

UnaClef

Clefable @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aromatherapy / Thunder / Flamethrower
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled​

Unaware Clefable is a counter to Clefable. It always switches in under the worst case scenario when healthy, and gladly chunks it by reverse sweeping the now boosted opposing Clefable (provided the conditions for doing so are met).

To clarify myself12 and SunCooled, Nidoking and Nihilego are checks to CM Clefable. A counter is a Pokemon that can manually switch into the opposing Pokemon and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax-- which neither can always do.

For example:​

+6 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 320-377 (105.6 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Thunder vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 311-367 (82 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[myself12]

UnaClef

Clefable @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aromatherapy / Thunder / Flamethrower
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled​

Unaware Clefable is a counter to Clefable. It always switches in under the worst case scenario when healthy, and gladly chunks it by reverse sweeping the now boosted opposing Clefable (provided the conditions for doing so are met).

To clarify myself12 and SunCooled, Nidoking and Nihilego are checks to CM Clefable. A counter is a Pokemon that can manually switch into the opposing Pokemon and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax-- which neither can always do.

For example:​

+6 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 320-377 (105.6 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Thunder vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 311-367 (82 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

You're right. I forgot the worst-case senario part, as I thought that realistically, you're going to switch in Nidoking after Clefable switches in; you're not going to do it after Clefable's already at +6.

 

[Smashburn]

You're right. I forgot the worst-case senario part, as I thought that realistically, you're going to switch in Nidoking after Clefable switches in; you're not going to do it after Clefable's already at +6.

Indeed. Regardless, that makes it a check because it is turn based and isn't always accurate. The definitions for checks and counters aren't perfect, so I get it.

From direct quote, "Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." In the worst case scenario, Clef is already at +6 SpD so Nido wouldn't touch it and I think this might constitute as turn based and inaccurate somewhat. However, if it isn't at a ridiculously high CM count (which won't happen in most circumstance) Nido can still switch in and put it out of commission if healthy. This puts it in a weird in-between zone, so some leniency can be given as to what is a counter and what is a check when one thinks realistically.

Fortunately, counters are easier to define than checks in most cases, but checks have a thinner line imo so I get it.

 

[blooclipse]

Choice Band Smart Strike Kartana

Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 236 Atk / 20 SpD/ 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Smart Strike
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off

Evs live +1 LO moonblast, rest pumped into speed and atk to do banded kart's normal job.
just switch in on anything, and pick up a kill.
You can even switch in after it has 1 calm mind up because the EVs live a +1 moonblast w/ no rocks, and +1 thunder even with rocks up.

Banded Kartana is a Check to CM clef since it can only switch into it once.

calcs

no cm:
0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 20 SpD Kartana: 146-172 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Thunder vs. 0 HP / 20 SpD Kartana: 112-133 (43.2 - 51.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
1 cm:
+1 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 20 SpD Kartana: 218-257 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Thunder vs. 0 HP / 20 SpD Kartana: 169-199 (65.2 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

murder:
236 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Clefable: 408-480 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[odt]

Ferrothorn @ Occa Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 208 Def / 52 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Body Press
- Stealth Rock / Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
- Curse

Occa berry is there just in case it has Flamethrower (Gyro Ball turn one just in case). The only calc you really need to see: +1 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 404-476 (102.5 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

When paralyzed Gyro Ball does 68.5 - 80.7% unboosted so Clef had best not try PP stalling.

This spread offers some extra utility, surviving ScarfBlac Flamethrower (after rocks) and does 51.4 - 60.7% unboosted for a neat 2KO. It also survives anything from Heatran bar specs or a full health Eruption, hitting it on the switch with a chunky Body Press (99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers on max HP specially defensive tran). It can even survive a max atk V-create 93,7% of the time from full health. What a beast Ferro is <3.

Even at +4 and LO this Clef will miss the 2KO more often than not. Even without reliable recovery I'd still consider this Ferro a Counter.

After consideration I feel this set does too poorly against Unaware CM and Flamethrower/Focus Blast versions to be considered a counter, but still could possibly be seen as a check. I'll leave it up a anyway seeing as it does well against popular switch-ins and is well worth trying out.

 

[Dirkhann]

View attachment 425219View attachment 425220
Ferrothorn @ Occa Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 208 Def / 52 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Body Press
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Curse

Occa berry is there just in case it has Flamethrower (Gyro Ball turn one just in case). The only calc you really need to see: +1 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 404-476 (102.5 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

When paralyzed Gyro Ball does 68.5 - 80.7% unboosted so Clef had best not try PP stalling.

Additionally, this spread survives ScarfBlac Flamethrower (after rocks) and does 51.4 - 60.7% unboosted for a neat 2KO. It also survives anything from Heatran bar specs or a full health Eruption, hitting it on the switch with a chunky Body Press (99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers on max HP specially defensive tran). It can even survive a max atk V-create 93,7% of the time from full health. What a beast Ferro is <3.

Even at +4 and LO this Clef will miss the 2KO more often than not. Even without reliable recovery I'd still consider this Ferro a Counter.

Small nitpick but you don't really need the Occa Berry here since its about countering the specific Clef set posted, nothing else.

 

[Smashburn]

View attachment 425219View attachment 425220
Ferrothorn @ Occa Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 208 Def / 52 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Body Press
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Curse

Occa berry is there just in case it has Flamethrower (Gyro Ball turn one just in case). The only calc you really need to see: +1 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 404-476 (102.5 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

When paralyzed Gyro Ball does 68.5 - 80.7% unboosted so Clef had best not try PP stalling.

Additionally, this spread survives ScarfBlac Flamethrower (after rocks) and does 51.4 - 60.7% unboosted for a neat 2KO. It also survives anything from Heatran bar specs or a full health Eruption, hitting it on the switch with a chunky Body Press (99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers on max HP specially defensive tran). It can even survive a max atk V-create 93,7% of the time from full health. What a beast Ferro is <3.

Even at +4 and LO this Clef will miss the 2KO more often than not. Even without reliable recovery I'd still consider this Ferro a Counter.

Huh?

+4 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Ferrothorn: 160-187 (45.5 - 53.2%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Gyro Ball is always a 2HKO anyways, you don't need a Curse set.

Worst case scenario, but realistically it is never gets to +6 unless you really mess up so idk if this is a check or counter. Just keep calcs like these in mind.

+6 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 165-195 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+5 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 144-170 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[odt]

Huh?

+4 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Ferrothorn: 160-187 (45.5 - 53.2%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Gyro Ball is always a 2HKO anyways, you don't need a Curse set.

Worst case scenario, but realistically it is never gets to +6 unless you really mess up so idk if this is a check or counter. Just keep calcs like these in mind.

+6 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 165-195 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+5 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 144-170 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I didn't mention SR in that instance so my statement rings true: +4 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ferrothorn: 160-188 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO, I only mentioned it to show how little damage clef does even after an unreasonable amount of boosts.

Gyro Ball gets PP stalled, thats why some Ferro's run Iron Head instead. Also: 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (98 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 176-210 (44.6 - 53.2%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO.
Worse yet with lefties 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (98 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 176-210 (44.6 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Recover
- Focus Blast

you beat clef in a CM war and ur able to fire off psyshocks that target its defense instead and be able to just nuke it while it cannot really touch you

0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Reuniclus: 113-134 (26.6 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Reuniclus: 168-199 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You can just hard switch in on a clefable, setup up CM and proceed to recover any damage they deal to you

+1 0 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Clefable: 188-224 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

While you do a lot to it in return especially if you acquired multiple boosts

 

[Smashburn]

I didn't mention SR in that instance so my statement rings true: +4 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ferrothorn: 160-188 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO, I only mentioned it to show how little damage clef does even after an unreasonable amount of boosts.

Gyro Ball gets PP stalled, thats why some Ferro's run Iron Head instead. Also: 0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (98 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 176-210 (44.6 - 53.2%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO.

Yeah but in the worst case scenario (and the general rule of thumb for any calc aside from the bare minimum when you can't fit it) Stealth Rock is going to be there.

 

[odt]

Yeah but in the worst case scenario (and the general rule of thumb for any calc aside from the bare minimum when you can't fit it) Stealth Rock is going to be there.

I feel like you're nitpicking over least important part of my post. Regardless, if you've let a Clef get to +4 before switching in your counter I'd like to think you at least managed to clear hazards.

 

[Giyu]

Excadrill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin

I feel this is self-explanatory but essentially, Excadrill gets free Swords Dance setup as it's immune to Thunder and resists Moonblast. OHKO's with Iron Head.

->
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Clefable: 500-590 (126.9 - 149.7%)

->
+6 0 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 359-421 (99.4 - 116.6%)

 

[SetsuSetsuna]

Hey everyone. Sorry for being late, as I had some issues to deal with IRL. Before starting the voting process...

I want to point out how weird it is to rate checks and counters under these scenarios (i.e. the mon in question has a boosting move). Consider for example SD LO Kartana. Would Zapdos be a check? Techinally not cause under the worst case scenario where kartana is at +6, it just gets OHKO by Knock off.

Thus, I personally think that considering such extreme situations is a bit too much, as it doesn't happen in practice. That being said, you should still consider scenarios where, in this case, Clef can get a couple of CMS. Thus if you all agree (and before the voting process begins) I would like to consider

Heavy Slam
Assault Vest
Unaware

as counters, and the rest of submissions as checks. If anyone has any objection, please let us know by the end of the day so I can start the voting process. Ty for reading :)

 

[zapthotz]

based suwa

 

[Smashburn]

Those look good, no objections here. Thanks Setsu!

 

[blooclipse]

I can agree with that, sounds cool!