Resource Sword/Shield BSS Viability Rankings

Psynergy

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Welcome to the Battle Stadium Singles Viability Rankings thread. Here, we as a community will rank all viable Pokemon into tiers. Everyone is encouraged to post thoughts and opinions on Pokemon that are usable in the metagame and what rank they should fall under. The general idea of the thread is to rank Pokemon based on their effectiveness in the Battle Stadium Singles metagame, and posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes. Remember that this thread is maintained by players just like you so this list can never be truly objective, but these rankings strive to be as accurate as possible so every post helps.

The Viability Rankings will be updated appropriately as the metagame progresses or when new Pokemon become available, and we will take posts in this thread into consideration. There is no concrete schedule to when these updates will happen, but the VR Council has the final say on what gets moved in the ranking list. These users are all well informed players that gather the community's input to make final decisions on any individual Pokemon:
Battle Stadium Singles Rankings

(In alphabetical order)

S rank:
Reserved for the best Pokemon in the Battle Stadium Singles metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Dragapult
Excadrill
Mimikyu


A rank:
Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the Battle Stadium Singles metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
A+ rank
Corviknight
Rotom-Heat
Togekiss
Tyranitar

A rank
Darmanitan-Galar
Gyarados
Hydreigon
Rotom-Wash
Snorlax

A- rank
Aegislash
Cloyster
Ferrothorn
Grimmsnarl
Hippowdon
Rhyperior
Rotom-Mow
Sylveon
Toxapex


B rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the Battle Stadium Singles metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the format. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
B+ rank
Charizard
Cinderace
Ditto
Durant
Gastrodon
Umbreon

B rank
Conkeldurr
Dracovish
Dracozolt
Duraludon
Haxorus
Lapras
Quagsire
Seismitoad
Whimsicott

B- rank
Arcanine
Clefable
Corsola-Galar
Diggersby
Glalie
Hawlucha
Inteleon
Milotic
Toxtricity (Amped)
Type: Null


C rank
Reserved for Pokemon that have a niche in the Battle Stadium Singles metagame. These Pokemon fill unique roles that are valuable on certain teams but have numerous flaws that hold them back. Pokemon in this rank may actually outperform those in higher ranks with specific team support but often depend too much on their teammates to function.
Alcremie
Avalugg
Bisharp
Butterfree
Doublade
Dubwool
Eiscue
Goodra
Greedent
Hatterene
Sandaconda
Kommo-o
Lanturn
Mamoswine
Obstagoon
Rillaboom
Rotom-Fan
Torkoal


Rules
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think Pokemon X should be in this tier" without giving any reasoning will not be tolerated.
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but avoid basing your entire argument around them.
  • No flaming, if you disagree with someone please be civil about it.
  • No one-liners or useless comments.
 
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Psynergy

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Welcome again to another iteration of the BSS Viability Rankings! A few points of business I want to address first.

First off, a special welcome to marilli, Charlotte, and 1_TrickPhony for joining the VR Council this gen! These three have been very active contributors and players in this early metagame who have already proven to be valuable members in this transition to the new generation. They will be taking over the spots previously held by NOVED, chemcoop, and Solerme who are currently less active, thanks again for all your contributions!

Second, you probably all notice that C rank stands out as being especially bloated. At the moment, C rank is a conglomerate of all Pokemon that we think are viable in some way but are unsure of how to rank accurately. Some of these Pokemon may actually be deserving of a higher rank but at the moment we are less sure of their place in the metagame beyond "this Pokemon is viable."

There are a few ways we can address this, the obvious option being that we split C rank into C+/C/C- since clearly some Pokemon here are better than others. However, a lot of these are not Pokemon that we have personally tested, so it would feel a bit disingenuous for us to split them up already when they're already not particularly high level meta threats. These are Pokemon that have seen noteworthy success though so we do think these Pokemon are viable, hence them being ranked in the first place. Alternatively, it's possible that some of these Pokemon are actually not particularly viable and are only seeing short-lived success before the metagame develops further, in which case we simply remove them later.

Ultimately this is just another discussion point for the thread, so feel free to discuss what would be a good way to approach this. In general we all have slightly varying opinions on the current rankings in the first place which means even we don't have total consensus on all this stuff, so we're all interested to see what everyone else thinks!
 
Moltres to C :p

Had to be done but seriously congratulations to everyone who got promoted to VR council especially my good friend 1TP. I’ll probably post some thoughts later when I get back from work though hopefully you will be hearing a lot less of me than last generation.

Ika
 
Originally I was going to go through the list, give my thoughts on what I personally think, in my limited opinion is good, what I disagree with and any other suggestions I had. I guess these could have been summarised with that I largely agree with the top 10 and have a few minor disagreements with A- to B- rank but overall it seems like a decent start. However, whilst I was prepping some Onions, I had an epiphany. Whether through poor fortune or oversight, this is probably the worst possible time to ask people's opinion on the tier list. Therefore I'm not going to give an opinion and justify it but instead say this:

The purpose of a tier list is to catalogue what is currently good within the metagame and this does lead to change over time, however any tier list for a metagame that has such a huge overhaul incoming, as the DLC will undoubtedly be, will very soon become obsolete. This is especially the case when meta defining pokemon such as the Tapus, Garchomp, Volcarona, Landorus-T, Heatran and Zapdos are said to be released. Therefore I think it is best to comment and make changes once composes the metagame has stabilised as hopefully it should do after the DLC lands.
 
Couple of discussion points we had as a VR team that we would love for you all to discuss.

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Corviknight to S? Universally, our group had Corviknight as the 4th best pokemon. In our previous drafts, Corviknight occupied an S- tier. We have decided to scrap the S-, however, we would like input on whether or not it belongs in S or with Togekiss/Ttar/Rotom-H in A+.

Rhyperior to A-? Rhyperior in the previous drafts occupied A- tier, but was dropped at the end to B+ last minute. Does it deserve A-? It is one of the best dynamax abusers with two very viable sets in WP and AV, each helping it check unique threats. Is this enough to overcome its somewhat crippling Special bulk and dual weakness to water and grass?

Cinderace to B+? It seems that all of our team (including me) didn't really like Cinderace that much, because it is much closer to usage level with Pokemon in A-/B+ than the pokemon in B, yet we put it in B anyways. Is it really as good as its usage suggests?

Glalie to ??? On paper, Glalie is probably B or B+, similar to last gen. Despite no longer accuracy haxing (which is less significant than last gen due to perfect accuracy Max Moves), it is also a great dynamax user itself and has incredible support with Grimmsnarl now in the game. However, it is crippled by the new timer rules on Cartridge. Where does Glalie deserve to be ranked? In line with cart or no timer PS rulesets? We are curious for input on Glalie and for the format in general on this topic of ranking based on cart timer viability vs no timer PS viability.

Toxtricity to B? With the relatively new meta development of AV Toxtricity, this pokemon got far more utility and ability to 1 vs 1 much of the meta. It also has a deadline throat spray shift gear set, sweeping unprepared teams who expect it to be slow and more passive.

Inteleon to B-? It also has a multitude of viable set, ranging from Sash Torrent, Mystic Water, Choice Scarf, to even Dual Screens. I think its clearly better than the pokemon in C, and fits more along the pokemon in B-. My list had it on the top of C+, but then C+ got combined to form a singular C tier (reflecting our semi-viable but not fully tested tier).

Indeedee-F to unranked? She rocks in doubles, but it seems the patriarchy gave her the short end of the stick when it came to singles. Does she deserve a C ranking along her brother Indeedee?

Discuss here! If you have opinions but would prefer to PM me rather than publicly post (particularly with lower tier mons), shoot me a message and I'll discuss your nomination with you and be sure to at least bring them up to the VR council.
 
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Here's the opinion that I gave to 1TP about a fortnight ago on the tier list with a few updates since I've played more Sword/Shield BSS. I will have to apologise in advance, I know how much certain people dislike "Showdown knowledge", though I have extensively watched streams and probably read more Japanese blogs than anyone on Smogon so most of what I am saying is also relevant on Cartridge.

Comments on 1TPs post

Corviknight:

I'm also of the opinion that it is clearly the 4th best pokemon in the game and 2 weeks ago I had it in S but now I have it at the top of A+.

The question is really is whether it is closer to rank 3 or rank 5. Corviknight in its current iteration reminds me a bit of Tapu Fini, in terms that it is clearly the best defensive pokemon in the game but also comes with a considerable amount of versatility. Corviknight constrains teambuilding and requires multiple specific checks in order for that team to be considered solid. Such is its strangehold on the metagame, that many pokemon in the top 10, notably the rotom-formes rankings are considerably boosted by Corviknight's existence. Even with these checks existing on your opponents team, Corviknight can still be brought to battles and fulfill its role of neutering certain top meta threats effectively. There is very little downside of putting it on your team. Rotom-H has different formes and there are other electrics/fires, there are other WP users, but there is only one pokemon that performs Corviknights role effectively, that being Corviknight.

Tapu Fini was better in USUM than Corviknight currently is in SWSH, which is why I suggest it stay A+ (though it is the best of the bunch). The reason for this is because despite its great matchup spread against the S tier, the meta has effectively warped around it with Fire/Electric special moves, especially the former, finding its way onto every special attacker specifically for this pokemon. So its matchup spread lower down the tier list is not as good. It is bulky enough to take one hit most of the time, but it is not particularly fast so it can struggle against threats that have already boosted as it switches in. Also it does not carry a huge amount of offensive threat most of the time, which I think holds it back from S where all the pokemon have both defensive utility and offensive threat.


Rhyperior:

Rhyperior is an interesting case, I can't say I've had a huge amount of experience with it. It definitely has a role as a great user of WP that can stand up with TTar and Togekiss and check these pokemon to an extent. I do question whether, even with solid rock and dynamax, that it will be able to stand up as a dynamax user given those two 4xWeaknesses and it hasn't quite got the special bulk of TTar or Togekiss. Its use as a premier togekiss check is weaning too as players are adapting by running Grass Knot which OHKOs Rhyperior (max overgrowth I think OHKOs even dynamaxed Rhyperior) and Togekiss can definitely run this move no problem. The rise of Rotom-Cut is also bad for Rhyperior. I do have some questions about the A- tier in particular as the rank difference between A- and B+ seems similarly blurred as last gen (Cloyster I could see being B+ for example). Rhyperior also has another major problem which is that outside of rooms it is slow as shit, meaning you are taking a lot of hits even if you get off WP. Your opponents team will probably have multiple pokemon that can super effectively hit Rhyperior (often 4x) so even if you are dynamaxed unless you are in rooms, you are probably not going to sweep. Rooms has its own issue in opposing mold breaker Excadrill. My gut says to keep it in B+.


Cinderace:

From my understanding through usage and reading blogs, Cinderace is generally just solid at trading which it does well against the vast majority of the metagame and comes with the added bonus of the offensive fire typing, decent speed, decent dynamaxer and all round solid. As a lead, it pretty reliably trades with a lot of the metagame threats, trading well with pretty much everything other than Gyarados from S -> A tier, which makes it a pretty decent lead in Darmanitan-less games. It also has decent versatility, being able to run other items, stuff like counter. This can put you in a solid position as the opponent is forced to dynamax in order to gain momentum, which comes with its own opportunity cost. Other than Gyarados, nothing can really set up on Cinderace which is where I think its utility comes from. Is it as good as the pokemon in B+, I think so. I wouldn't put it any higher, although usage has it somewhere like 13th atm.


Glalie:

I'd rank Glalie based on the cartridge timer rules since that is at least the format that the current BSS tier leadership prioritises over showdown. On cartridge I think Glalie is B-, since it likes dedicated lead and needs to reduce its HP in order to set up. If it had evasion boost still, it would be A+, since you could just spam sheer cold once the opponent missed once until you KOed a pokemon and then you can just sub/protect stall the timer out. But alas, it is not. Glalie B- on cart, you could put an asterisk of B/B+ on showdown I guess.


Toxtricity:

Again, a pokemon that I haven't played around with much. My gut right now is that it is still overshadowed by pokemon like Rotom and although I could see it possibly in B, at this current point I see it as a B- pokemon.


Inteleon:

I honestly think that out of all of the pokemon in B-, that Inteleon would be the worst pokemon within that tier. It definitely has a niche and does stand out solidly in the C tier. Does it necessarily mean that it shouldn't be B-, perhaps not.


Indeedee-F:

Unranked, it does nothing over Indeedee-M. I guess I am using the Moltres counterargument here, except that what Indeedee does isn't that great to begin with and right now there are only around 60 pokemon mentioned and I'd struggle to put indeedee-m there.


Moves up:

Toxapex to A-

I honestly think Toxapex is being slept on a bit in this list and is fantastic in Sword/Shield and definitely better than everything in B+ (inc. Rhyperior). It does exactly what it used to, stall out things (dynamax included), spread status and generally being an unkillable blob. Stall as a style is underrated, both in cartridge and on showdown. It should be noted that for Cart, Toxapex is easily one of the best timer stallers in SWSH.

I think it is amiss to mistake lack of versatility and passiveness for lack of viability. Scald burn is devastating to most of the tier without the ever-present misty terrain and strong electric types that generation 7 had, meaning that most pokemon other than rotom formes and togekiss hate switching into Toxapex. Baneful bunker is even better as it wastes dynamax turns and toxapex takes nothing even from super effective attacks with a protect up and can heal back the opponents Dmax turns with recover/regenerator. It is the weak electric presence (ie no thund no koko) that means rotom reigns supreme as an electric, but Rotom is actually one of the electrics that Toxapex can take multiple hits from if toxiced/burnt and KO through stalling. Yea Pex isn't a great dynamaxer, but part of its strength is that it can beat dynamaxers without needing to dynamax. It sees loads of top team usage for good reason and deserves A-.

Conkeldurr to B

Conkeldurr is really underrated and its S1 lower usage on Cartridge was in large part not due to this guys lack of viability but more due to the annoyance of getting Flame Orb. In S2, you can see it in the top 30 where it belongs. Its an excellent Dynamaxer, nothing in the entire tier likes switching into it except like Corsola and it has the bulk to eat some hits especially when dynamaxed and benefits heavily from being able to OHKO MImikyu whilst Dynamaxed. Mach punch is also amazing priority when Hydreigon, Excadrill and TTar exist as prime targets. I honestly think it could be B+, its that good but B is good for now.

Lapras to B

I think Lapras is starting to come into its own as an AV user, being a decent stallbreaker and decent dynamaxer. Im on the cusp of this nom but I think Lapras will be up here easily in S3 so might as well start the rise up.

Seismitoad to B

An underrated sweeper, the only good rain mon etc, think should at least be considered for B

Moves Down

Tyranitar to A

I think Tyranitar is an excellent weakness policy user, but has the misfortune of being slow of speed, you want to dynamax to live hits but that means that you havent gotten a speed boost so you are essentially trading your dynamax for a 1 for 1 down and momentum on the next kill a lot of the time. Togekiss its fellow WP terror is far more obnoxious. Its obviously excellent, but I think its of the same tier as Hydreigon, Gyarados and Snorlax and not there up with Togekiss as a Dynamaxer. Hating Corviknight, Excadrill, Snorlax and Mimikyu as well as WoW is not a good thing. If anything, replace it with Hydreigon which is more fitting in A+ but Im not gonna push that one.

Dracovish to B-

Vish hype unfortunately has died down, too many bulky waters, stuff like Lapras rising in usage, which is gonna be even more prevalent once GMax Lapras is released. Slower than Dragapult even when scarfed, being revenged by Mimikyu and being a shitty Dynamaxer really sucks for this mon.

Arcanine to B-

I think time has shown that Arcanine is not as good as originally thought, its like solid enough but theres not too much special about it. Rotom-H, Charizard and Cinderace have a lot more going for them so arcanine is pushed out a bit by default.

Corsola-Galar to B-

I know I gave an argument for Toxapex being decent earlier but Toxapex pivots a lot easier due to regenerator, can poison shit, is good against threats on both sides of the spectrum and is a lot easier to fit on your team. Corsola is too passive even to be used on stall a lot of the time. Corsola is no toxapex, being weak to Dragapult, Mimikyu, Hydreigon sucks.

Other comments:

I could potentially see Dracozolt as B+ too, but I'm alright with it as B for now.
 
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Please consider adding Togedemaru to your viability rankings. The thing is seriously good, especially as a lead.

You can Fake Out/Nuzzle then Iron Head or Zing Zap. Great typing and most important of all, it gets Sturdy, do not sleep on this mon
 
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marilli

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Togedemaru's poor matchup against metagame threats like Excadrill, Rotoms, Hippowdon, Gastrodon, Quagsire, Seismitoad really hold him back as you are forced to be flawless with your U-turn predictions. Being flawless with U-turn or Double Switch predictions is really a game stacked against you, especially when you have a low-damage threat like Togedemaru on the field. Many of these coounters, especially Sash Exca and Hippowdon, are especially common as leads, and Rotom can switch in for free. There's the problem with your set, too. Fake Out is not "free damage" and seem pretty much useless aside from breaking Focus Sash on Excadrill (which you can do with U-turn anyways) so I don't think that set is even really optimal. Having these Ground or Electric types paired with a faster U-turn from likes of Dragapult / Darmanitan / Hydreigon really means Togedemaru will get 0 done. But Fake Out Chip is probably the most you're doing in the matchups I just said (maybe you get to click Fake Out chip on Darmanitan / Hydreigon as they Scarf U-turn out) so ironically you may see it do even less work after you switch out that move. Fake Out chip is kind of good, but its not really good enough to justify a Pokemon. Paralysis immunities (especially Ground-types) are such integral parts of the meta that you usually cant just bank on them not having one.

I think it's true that it's a somewhat usable Pokemon, but at the same time think there's stronger Pokemon left off the list like say, Glaceon, that's actually much better than Togedemaru. We have a really bloated c rank right now, and you gotta cut off the list somewhere.
 
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Psynergy

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Discussion has been a bit slow but with the season coming to an end very soon, I thought I'd take the time to remind everyone that the first round of voting will begin soon after the season ends. In other words, the VR council will begin discussion on current nominations this weekend, so if you've got any lasting questions or changes to suggest from the current rankings, this is your last chance to get those nominations in for the first vote!

I personally agree with a number of the nominations discussed here already, but a few extra comments from me. Not all of these are nominations but if someone thinks they should be feel free to nominate them.
  • Nomination: Aegislash feels worthy of A- rather than B+ to me, the sash set alone does a very good job at forcing trades which can be a big annoyance for teams that only have a few ways to beat Aegislash, and forcing this trade can favorably set up the game for your final picks as well. Regular Leftovers King's Shield sets are also good on bulky teams since it can comfortably switch into a lot of stuff and even burn some Dynamax turns with King's Shield.
  • Nomination: Whimsicott could also possibly move up to B, I see it a lot more than the other stuff in B- and it has a number of annoying tools to set up a teammate or disrupt a Dynamax (Memento, Stun Spore, Substitute), Grass/Fairy also has solid utility offensively in current meta so it can hit some notable threats despite lacking a bit in offense.
  • I haven't seen Haxorus at all this season, I think its niche is still useful and a boosted Haxorus is still a big threat but it doesn't stand out a ton right now. Likewise I've seen a surprising amount of Hawlucha, perhaps these two can converge at B- rather than B and C respectively, but these are just some comments on my experience this season.
 

marilli

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a few public pointers to be raised, not all of them are 100% my opinion but smth to discuss:

1. Dropping Yawners (Sylveon, Hippowdon)

This is more of a metagame call type of thing. Some people think with rise of Lum Berry it's not really worth putting them as high as A-. In my opinion the hands forced by Yawn often reveals their Lum and often lets you react offensively (that Togekiss that's setting up in front of Hippowdon, they will never be weakness policy, and I think the meta cycles around so much and I think the ability to force that adjustment is a strength of these Pokemon that will resurface every time meta changes.

2. Aegislash and Rhyperior up?

I nominated Aegislash for A- internally in VR discussions, and I eventually budged but it's nice to see the usage stats backing me up. Aegislash is a great sasher and with Weakness Policy priority decreasing, it actually makes a good use of that item too. Now that meta has developed and things like Togekiss feel free to use Lum / Scope Lens because how hard they get played around, so WP Aegislash doesn't feel like a hard waste - as often the option of WP Aegislash is completely ignored instead.

Rhyperior had quite the metagame stir-up around it. Rise of Room Mimikyus to play around Dynamax + and pairing Rhyperior with it is a real core. It is a surprise to see it not make top 30, but the serious dropoff in Tyranitar usage and others seems to indicate Rhyperior is a strong powerhouse. However, Rhyperior only really becomes the threat with spending the Dynamax and requires team support, so maybe it stands to be in similar line as Durant, another high level threat that is dependent on Dynamaxing.

3. General restructuring of High Tier

Maybe some people want to drop Rotom-H and Tyranitar based on usage. I still think these Pokemon are absurdly strong. Remember that Gyarados fell down to 15th or whatever and now it's back stronger than ever. I think we kind of have to admit that Dynamax made team RPS aspect of the game significantly worse and have to admit that usage of really strong mons will fluctuate, but tiering on strength mon generally vs metagame trends is a real discussion, and it's going to be a real (unnecessary) hassle to reflect this every time this "usage" is posted (it's so volatile too, it's just a few people's experiences, not true hard data.)

4. Drop Arcanine, Haxorus, Corsola-G to B-

Now these are some lower tier housekeeping I don't care much for but yall can talk about it.

Arcanine is really bad lol, Cinderace is a lot better IMO. I agree with what Psynergy said and B- seems solid, but Arcanine I think deserves that, too. Its usage is low and its coverage is nice, but has holes. Being weak to some of the metagame's top threats doesn't help here.

Corsola-G is a very situational mon. Everyone knows I'm an offensehead so I'm biased here, but the only thing this gets to sap is your momentum.

5. Standout Pokemon in C

Milotic, Hawlucha, Type: Null are the big standouts here.
 

Theorymon

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Just some quick takes before I get my ride home. I'll post more later when I get home and think about them!

1. Yeah I agree with Aegislash going to A-. Ive loved the sash set this late season, but Ive started to see a LOT more weakness policy ones popping up again too. I agree with marilli's thoughts here, with not as many people using WP on mons they always Dynamax, Aegislash feels easier to slot in then last season.

2. Keep Rhyperior in B+. I think its a fantastic mon, but it needs team support to really shine imo, like I wouldnt run one without TR Mimikyu at the very least.

3. On Type Null.. I've been using it a lot this season, and personally I think it should be B- minimum, though I wouldn't object to B either. I think its bulk and speed control support put it above the usual C-tier stuff. I wouldn't put it higher than B because the lack of reliable recovery really hurts its tanking abilities, and I think that can justify the B- position too.

4. Totally agree on Whimsicott being B, that thing is annoying as hell and has moved beyond just the Cotton Guard Leech Seed stuff, its become more versatile now too!

5. I'm not totally certain where Haxorus should be yet (besides B- being the absoloute minimum), but I agree that Hawlucha needs an upgrade, from the many I've seen last week, its a pretty threatening mold breaker sweeper just from it being able to raise Attack and Speed while its Dynamaxed. I'm fine with B- though because it's also laughably frail even when Dynamaxed (for example, Togekiss Max Airstream still OHKOs it like 93% of the time lol).

6. I'm fine with Milotic getting out of C, its pretty much the only bulky water with good recovery, and its something I actually see quite a bit on high ranked teams.
 
Again these just my opinions but Ill add some more discussion. I've bolded a few things that I want to nominate for discussion.

Tldr my noms:

Doublade to C
Darmanitan-Galar to A

Discussion has been a bit slow but with the season coming to an end very soon, I thought I'd take the time to remind everyone that the first round of voting will begin soon after the season ends. In other words, the VR council will begin discussion on current nominations this weekend, so if you've got any lasting questions or changes to suggest from the current rankings, this is your last chance to get those nominations in for the first vote!

I personally agree with a number of the nominations discussed here already, but a few extra comments from me. Not all of these are nominations but if someone thinks they should be feel free to nominate them.
  • Nomination: Aegislash feels worthy of A- rather than B+ to me, the sash set alone does a very good job at forcing trades which can be a big annoyance for teams that only have a few ways to beat Aegislash, and forcing this trade can favorably set up the game for your final picks as well. Regular Leftovers King's Shield sets are also good on bulky teams since it can comfortably switch into a lot of stuff and even burn some Dynamax turns with King's Shield.
  • Nomination: Whimsicott could also possibly move up to B, I see it a lot more than the other stuff in B- and it has a number of annoying tools to set up a teammate or disrupt a Dynamax (Memento, Stun Spore, Substitute), Grass/Fairy also has solid utility offensively in current meta so it can hit some notable threats despite lacking a bit in offense.
  • I haven't seen Haxorus at all this season, I think its niche is still useful and a boosted Haxorus is still a big threat but it doesn't stand out a ton right now. Likewise I've seen a surprising amount of Hawlucha, perhaps these two can converge at B- rather than B and C respectively, but these are just some comments on my experience this season.

I agree with Aegislash, I was tempted to nominate it myself but decided against it after having some disagreements in the discord about it. Every time I play it or play against it, Aegislash puts in work and I think people forget that Aegislash hits like an absolute truck and always trades, a valuable trait in a top BSS Mon. Sash is great, Weakness Policy is great, even specs/band/LO are decent. Aegi OHKOs Togekiss if it gets weakness policy even if Togekiss is Dynamaxed or it can also KO with LO Steel Beam, it can also live a Max Flare without having to Dynamax. +2 Shadow Sneak with only 60 attack investment OHKOs no bulk Dragapult 93% of the time. There literally is nothing that wants to switch into Aegislash in the entire tier. Even Corviknight has to be worried about certain builds like specs/lo. Im of the opinion that it is pretty underrated and will only continue to get better as it is played and experimented with more. It certainly is not the Aegislash of USUM, but I think a lot of its weaknesses are overexaggerated.

One thing that I could see added to the list talking about Aegislash is Doublade. It has a niche separate than Aegislash, bulky as shit and a great Dynamaxer. I think it should be mentioned in C and I think it could be a B- pokemon when the dust settles.

Agree with the other nominations but won't comment more on them too much. Whimsicott based on its standard set and prankster alone is B (one of the few fairies that can beat Excadrill in a straight 1v1 without dynamaxing), just forgot about it. I do think Haxorus is best seen on quite specific builds, which gives it a smaller niche than a lot of dynamax sweepers and I think its B-. Is Hawlucha good enough to be B-? Yea probably.

a few public pointers to be raised, not all of them are 100% my opinion but smth to discuss:

1. Dropping Yawners (Sylveon, Hippowdon)

This is more of a metagame call type of thing. Some people think with rise of Lum Berry it's not really worth putting them as high as A-. In my opinion the hands forced by Yawn often reveals their Lum and often lets you react offensively (that Togekiss that's setting up in front of Hippowdon, they will never be weakness policy, and I think the meta cycles around so much and I think the ability to force that adjustment is a strength of these Pokemon that will resurface every time meta changes.

2. Aegislash and Rhyperior up?

I nominated Aegislash for A- internally in VR discussions, and I eventually budged but it's nice to see the usage stats backing me up. Aegislash is a great sasher and with Weakness Policy priority decreasing, it actually makes a good use of that item too. Now that meta has developed and things like Togekiss feel free to use Lum / Scope Lens because how hard they get played around, so WP Aegislash doesn't feel like a hard waste - as often the option of WP Aegislash is completely ignored instead.

Rhyperior had quite the metagame stir-up around it. Rise of Room Mimikyus to play around Dynamax + and pairing Rhyperior with it is a real core. It is a surprise to see it not make top 30, but the serious dropoff in Tyranitar usage and others seems to indicate Rhyperior is a strong powerhouse. However, Rhyperior only really becomes the threat with spending the Dynamax and requires team support, so maybe it stands to be in similar line as Durant, another high level threat that is dependent on Dynamaxing.

3. General restructuring of High Tier

Maybe some people want to drop Rotom-H and Tyranitar based on usage. I still think these Pokemon are absurdly strong. Remember that Gyarados fell down to 15th or whatever and now it's back stronger than ever. I think we kind of have to admit that Dynamax made team RPS aspect of the game significantly worse and have to admit that usage of really strong mons will fluctuate, but tiering on strength mon generally vs metagame trends is a real discussion, and it's going to be a real (unnecessary) hassle to reflect this every time this "usage" is posted (it's so volatile too, it's just a few people's experiences, not true hard data.)

4. Drop Arcanine, Haxorus, Corsola-G to B-

Now these are some lower tier housekeeping I don't care much for but yall can talk about it.

Arcanine is really bad lol, Cinderace is a lot better IMO. I agree with what Psynergy said and B- seems solid, but Arcanine I think deserves that, too. Its usage is low and its coverage is nice, but has holes. Being weak to some of the metagame's top threats doesn't help here.

Corsola-G is a very situational mon. Everyone knows I'm an offensehead so I'm biased here, but the only thing this gets to sap is your momentum.

5. Standout Pokemon in C

Milotic, Hawlucha, Type: Null are the big standouts here.
I agree with what you say about Yawn and the rise of Lum Berry. I dont agree with dropping Sylveon/Hippowdon if only because they have other roles asides from yawn spamming. I think people do play these pokemon wrong to an extent as well, especially hippowdon. IMO you should be using your yawn cycling on the right pokemon and thinking about your plays rather than doing it the same way you would in USUM. If someone counterleads Togekiss up against Hippowdon, you shouldnt be clicking yawn but whirlwind instead or going hard to your check and then yawn cycle on the other pokemon. Sand Chip and Stealth Rock I think are both underrated especially since Gyarados/Togekiss are so obnoxious. Sylveon I think still has a role as a premier special wall, hydreigon in particular is a menace for teams.

On Ttar/Rotom-H, I've nominated the former not due to usage stats as this was something I thought about before they came out although they do back up that nomination. To make it very clear, I personally think the pokemon in A are absurdly strong (I mean just look at whats in there). Tyranitar might even be the weakest in A, though no way in hell would I ever nom it lower than that.

To compare it to Togekiss, if you don't have pokemon on your team (and even arguably other soft checks) that are just there specifically to check togekiss, that team sucks. That's just straight up, its on a different level of oppressiveness to Ttar which its nice to have a specific check for, but can be covered by multiple blanket checks (Excadrill, Corviknight, Mimikyu, Rotom, Darm, Snorlax...having a few of these on your team which is pretty likely generally is enough). Also has more item versatility, Lum Ttar is just gonna get burned the next turn by Dragapult or defensive Rotom-Wash for example if you try to set up or hippo just gonna click yawn again after lum is burned. So you are far less likely to sweep without WP.

Again I think a lot of it is subjective, personally Im of the opinion the order looks like:

1. Mimikyu
2. Excadrill
3. Dragapult

4. Corviknight
5. Togekiss

6. Hydreigon
7. Rotom-Wash
8. Gyarados
9. Snorlax
10. Rotom-Heat
11. Darmanitan-Galar
12. Tyranitar

Where there are gaps between 3 -> 4 and 5 -> 6 and 6 -> 12 are pretty close to each other. After that there's a drop as well. It's very hard to distinguish what is better between 6-12 and I think it does depend on meta fluctuations. I think there are always gonna be disagreements, at least for the near future about whether X + Y should be in A+ or A. So Im not gonna nominate stuff in the order I personally believe they should be (also because Ill probably change my mind by tomorrow).

Something that isn't in A though that should definitely be in A is Galarian Darmanitan. Is it the most versatile pokemon? No. Is it extremely good at what it does and obnoxious and able to sweep through teams pretty consistently with the right chip? Yes. Who needs versatility anyways when you can OHKO Excadrill, Dragapult, Togekiss, Hydreigon and Snorlax and some Corviknights with Scarf whilst doing stupid amounts of damage to everything else. I guess you can run Band too. Scarf Darm is also one of the best leads in the game whilst being a great cleanup sweeper, stall breaker, momentum gainer etc. It's a threat up there in ranks 6-12 in the game, it doesn't belong with the pokemon in A- and perhaps taking it out of A- might also make it clearer that Hippo/Sylveon should be in there.

Yea, the three pokemon you mentioned Marilli are also ones I think are notable in C.

Just some quick takes before I get my ride home. I'll post more later when I get home and think about them!

1. Yeah I agree with Aegislash going to A-. Ive loved the sash set this late season, but Ive started to see a LOT more weakness policy ones popping up again too. I agree with marilli's thoughts here, with not as many people using WP on mons they always Dynamax, Aegislash feels easier to slot in then last season.

2. Keep Rhyperior in B+. I think its a fantastic mon, but it needs team support to really shine imo, like I wouldnt run one without TR Mimikyu at the very least.

3. On Type Null.. I've been using it a lot this season, and personally I think it should be B- minimum, though I wouldn't object to B either. I think its bulk and speed control support put it above the usual C-tier stuff. I wouldn't put it higher than B because the lack of reliable recovery really hurts its tanking abilities, and I think that can justify the B- position too.

4. Totally agree on Whimsicott being B, that thing is annoying as hell and has moved beyond just the Cotton Guard Leech Seed stuff, its become more versatile now too!

5. I'm not totally certain where Haxorus should be yet (besides B- being the absoloute minimum), but I agree that Hawlucha needs an upgrade, from the many I've seen last week, its a pretty threatening mold breaker sweeper just from it being able to raise Attack and Speed while its Dynamaxed. I'm fine with B- though because it's also laughably frail even when Dynamaxed (for example, Togekiss Max Airstream still OHKOs it like 93% of the time lol).

6. I'm fine with Milotic getting out of C, its pretty much the only bulky water with good recovery, and its something I actually see quite a bit on high ranked teams.
Just a few comments on this. I think Type Null isnt good enough to be B and its kinda overhyped. Its decent at what it does tho and should be considered for B-. I agree with Milotic being B-. It's actually a surprisingly serviceable togekiss check too on stallier builds, being able to haze Dynamax boosts and then outspeed with recover meaning no flinches.
 
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Togedemaru's poor matchup against metagame threats like Excadrill, Rotoms, Hippowdon, Gastrodon, Quagsire, Seismitoad really hold him back as you are forced to be flawless with your U-turn predictions. Being flawless with U-turn or Double Switch predictions is really a game stacked against you, especially when you have a low-damage threat like Togedemaru on the field. Many of these coounters, especially Sash Exca and Hippowdon, are especially common as leads, and Rotom can switch in for free. There's the problem with your set, too. Fake Out is not "free damage" and seem pretty much useless aside from breaking Focus Sash on Excadrill (which you can do with U-turn anyways) so I don't think that set is even really optimal. Having these Ground or Electric types paired with a faster U-turn from likes of Dragapult / Darmanitan / Hydreigon really means Togedemaru will get 0 done. But Fake Out Chip is probably the most you're doing in the matchups I just said (maybe you get to click Fake Out chip on Darmanitan / Hydreigon as they Scarf U-turn out) so ironically you may see it do even less work after you switch out that move. Fake Out chip is kind of good, but its not really good enough to justify a Pokemon. Paralysis immunities (especially Ground-types) are such integral parts of the meta that you usually cant just bank on them not having one.

I think it's true that it's a somewhat usable Pokemon, but at the same time think there's stronger Pokemon left off the list like say, Glaceon, that's actually much better than Togedemaru. We have a really bloated c rank right now, and you gotta cut off the list somewhere.
I can tell you haven't used Togedemaru in Master Ball tier extensively like I have. The amount of disrespect you give this wonderful mon will not be tolerated by me. You hyper focus on Fake Out which I don't even run on mine. The power of Toge is it's Sturdy and Nuzzle combined with its great typing. Of course Toge has counters (Exca, Rotom-H) just like any mon but it also performs rather well vs meta mons like Dragapult- Mimikyu- Grimmsnarl- Togekiss- T-Tar- GDarm. You're also underestimating ParaHax with Iron Head. Also being able to take any hit from a Dynamax and para or hit back without taking sandstorm chip damage has won me games. And the icing on the cake is that I run Air Balloon. On several occasions I have won games because Excas were choice locked into Equake and couldn't kill me. It's better than anything in C tier. So next time show some respect to the WORLD champion Togedemaru or else you'll be it's next victim.
 
I somehow doubt that Marilli has used a single Togedemaru in Singles Master Ball tier...or Ultra Ball, Great Ball or even Pokeball tier for that matter
 
Hey everyone.

People in the council have already given their opinions on Todegemaru. Lets shift away from talk on Todegemaru and focus on Pokemon more relevant in the metagame, or other Pokemon that haven't been considered/discussed yet. Because it has been nominated, it will be considered for C rank, but regardless of how good you think Todegemaru is (I can promise you there are other unranked Pokemon better and more meta relevant than it), it does not deserve more than the couple of posts it has been given.
 

marilli

two, but one.
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I somehow doubt that Marilli has used a single Togedemaru in Singles Master Ball tier...or Ultra Ball, Great Ball or even Pokeball tier for that matter


:pikuh:

IK u were kidding but these are some Pokemon i used last season of ranked when I knew I'd just be mucking around instead. Togedemaru is definitely a productive mon. But some of the other unranked Pokemon, like Eiscue, Mandibuzz, Lanturn definitely felt like productive Pokemon too - and honestly I'd argue both Eiscue and Mandibuzz should be "ranked higher" than Toge. I would think Togedemaru to C is not a Pokemon so out the left field that it doesn't deserve a C nomination. The real question is where we draw the line.

Actually, why not just nom Eiscue and Mandibuzz to C myself :blobthinking:

edit: lol i have been made aware that some of those mons actually are on C my b
 
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Hey everyone.

People in the council have already given their opinions on Todegemaru. Lets shift away from talk on Todegemaru and focus on Pokemon more relevant in the metagame, or other Pokemon that haven't been considered/discussed yet. Because it has been nominated, it will be considered for C rank, but regardless of how good you think Todegemaru is (I can promise you there are other unranked Pokemon better and more meta relevant than it), it does not deserve more than the couple of posts it has been given.
Toge does well against or beats(depending on Iron Head/Para hax) 80 percent of the top 20 used mons. I don't get how that isn't relevent. But I'll let it go, I was just having some fun with my previous post anyway, Pokemon should never be taken too seriously or else we all miss the point, have fun battling guys!
 

PPB

Banned deucer.


:pikuh:

IK u were kidding but these are some Pokemon i used last season of ranked when I knew I'd just be mucking around instead. Togedemaru is definitely a productive mon. But some of the other unranked Pokemon, like Eiscue, Mandibuzz, Lanturn definitely felt like productive Pokemon too - and honestly I'd argue both Eiscue and Mandibuzz should be "ranked higher" than Toge. I would think Togedemaru to C is not a Pokemon so out the left field that it doesn't deserve a C nomination. The real question is where we draw the line.

Actually, why not just nom Eiscue and Mandibuzz to C myself :blobthinking:

edit: lol i have been made aware that some of those mons actually are on C my b
Shiny American Haxorus to C tier >:(
If Haxorus had Iron Head he could agency hax aviaryone to death!
 
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Psynergy

Strategy in motion!
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Moderator
Alright, we've been in discussion for a week and are finally ready for the first VR update of the gen! Charlotte is missing from the vote due to being busy, but the extra vote would not impact any of the results anyway except for possibly Milotic. In addition to the votes, we also quickly voted on a few low rank Pokemon that we feel didn't hold up well after the initial VR went up. These were all unanimous with no more than 1 person voting otherwise in each case, from Rotom-Fan to the end of the list.

A few quick notes though, we had a bit of a discussion about the A+ tier since at the moment there's still disagreement over some of those tier placements. There were a few ideas such as raising the standards for A+ tier, raising Togekiss to S, or creating a new S- tier (which felt like an unnecessary compromise), but there wasn't enough agreement over what to do here. If you have any additional comments or nominations you want to make regarding these higher tier Pokemon don't be afraid to do so, since we're still talking about them as well!

Another thing you might notice is that despite being voted for a rise, a majority of us actually would rather drop Glalie to C rank. However, since that was not an officially voted change, Glalie will remain where it currently is for now. Doublade is also being given the benefit of the doubt despite many of us abstaining, since it was a UR Pokemon being nominated for C and nobody argued against it, so if you feel strongly otherwise feel free to make a case against it.

Corviknight: A+ -> S
1_TrickPhony: Keep A+ Other S ranks are just too good atm, Corvi remains 4th best with a decent gap ahead of it

cant say: no

DragonWhale: Disagree. Corviknight does not fit the bill of other S-Rank pokemon. It has a very splashable weakness in Rotom, and the stalling option struggles to keep up with the timer restrictions on cart.

greilmercenary9: A+, I was one of the initial boosters for Corvi maybe being in S, but any claim it might've had to that died with meta shifts and the cart timer rules. Still elite but clearly behind the top 3 for now.

marilli: Disagree. Picking Corviknight always comes with a downside: as a reactive Pokemon, it needs to be paired with a defensive Pivot like Gastrodon or the like to just not lose things every time it comes in. Contrast to everything in S which is very independent and gives your team so much flexibility It is not difficult to switch into, can be teched for with Taunt, has less options, and just simply allows more counterplay and is not as splashable as the S rank Pokemon. It is still the best mon in A+.

Psynergy: A+, Not convinced about this one, Corviknight has proven to be very flexible and a strong answer to many of the physical threats in the meta, and it has forced many teams to run countermeasures for it to avoid just losing to it. However, these answers also keep Corviknight in check very well and are very easy to run, so A+ is fine.

Theorymon: Nah, Corviknight is a great mon, but I think A+ is the better fit for it because its got a lot of splashable checks like the Rotom formes.

Rhyperior: B+ -> A-
1_TrickPhony: Keep B+ People have already started adjusting to Rhyperior being a highly relevant Pokemon, with things such as Life Orb Grass Togekiss. I also think that it is too dependent on Mimikyu support, and TR is honestly so damn easy to stall out this generation, even behind such a hard hitter as Rhyperior. Its just not as versatile as I want from a Pokemon in A-, and while its STABs are great, any team with Corviknight Pex can switch stall or max guard/recovery stall it with little issue. Its also on the border and I can see it rising soon.

cant say: yes. AV is sick. WP with TR is really good, but it doesn't need TR as badly as people think

DragonWhale: Agree. This thing's damage output is insane even without a boost, and Edgequake is currently virtually unresistable. All of its common max moves are very beneficial and most water/grass moves are not able to OHKO through Solid Rock.

greilmercenary9: A-, Incredible bulk, good in TR, strong AV user

marilli: Agree. Hits hard, tanks hits. Trick Room having big meta relevance in screwing Airstream sweepers really helps this ranking. Otherwise Trick Room would be a dedicated Rhyperior option and be a bit of a meme. But it's good at checking Gyara and Kiss and stuff which makes Rhyperior truly viable.

Psynergy: A-, This might just be riding the hype but I've been very impressed with this thing as a WP sweeper, it is absurdly difficult to KO like Tyranitar but also has a better typing for threats like Togekiss. Given that it often relies on TR support to shine, I don't see it going above A- though.

Theorymon: Yeah I think this is actually fine now, in the past I argued B+ because it really wants TR support to shine, but not only is TR growing, but its actually a pretty decent Togekiss check too imo!

Cinderace: B -> B+
1_TrickPhony: Rise to B+ Usage is just too damn high and it does the roles it claims it can. The premier Durant check, with multiple viable sets at a high speed tier. Firmly B+ to me.

cant say: abstain. I don't get why it's used but it is used so :blobshrug:

DragonWhale: Agree. I don't think it's as great as its usage implies (ie top 10) but it does have a significant niche in being a great Fire and Fighting attacker with Sucker Punch that is faster than Durant.

greilmercenary9: B+, I'm not really a fan, but it maintains high usage in general and has a strong STAB in this meta.

marilli: Agree. Fire-typing is always good, especially in a meta that has things like Corviknight and Excadrill near the top of the tier. It is the best aggressive Fire-type option due to its high speed, and hits hard with Blaze and Dynamax like Inteleon (but with way better typing). It isn't a top 10 mon, though.

Psynergy: B+, I still don't get what makes so many people use this thing, but it is a fast Fire-type with decent coverage options. Given it remains commonly used, B+ is probably a more accurate place for it.

Theorymon: I'd argue this is the 2nd best Fire-type in the game (best being Rotom-H), so yeah I think B+ is a better fit for it!

Glalie: B- -> B
1_TrickPhony: Keep B-. I still think this ranking is the sweetspot between cart and PS viability, and having it at C is just too misleading for PS players because damn does it outperform the C mons

cant say: no

DragonWhale: Disagree. If anything this should drop to C.

greilmercenary9: B-, If anything this should probably go down between timer issues and more stuff running multi-hit moves.

marilli: Disagree. If anything this should drop to C.

Psynergy: B-, Going to agree I'd rather drop this to C than raise it to B, it definitely has incredibly high returns when luck is nice due to there being less variance in boosts, but it's way less consistent too. This is fine where it is right now.

Theorymon:Naw, not even taking the timer bs into account, I'd go with C just because Inflitrator Dragapult ruins this thing's day if it doesn't get a speed or SpD boost, it feels more luck reliant than it did in the past to me, as odd as that sounds lol

Toxtricity: B- -> B or C
1_TrickPhony: Keep B-. Not as great as I may have seen it when I suggested to go to B, but its still so useful with 2 viable sets that I think help prop it up even more: you cant tell if it will be a tank or a sweeper (reminds me of others in higher rank). It also has a great 1 vs 1 ability vs a variety of higher tier mons. Keep B-

cant say: eh I really like it but it's use is very niche so stay

DragonWhale: Drop to C. It hits strong but its niche is minor and also easily walled by a lot, not that fast without boosting, and dies to a lot of common attacks. It's pretty situational similar to a lot of C mons.

greilmercenary9: B-, Has a few interesting niches and does a good job of breaking bulkier builds; not enough to rise but enough to hold its ground I think.

marilli: Stay at B-

Psynergy: B-, I was skeptical of this thing at first but I think Toxtricity is good at what it does, check Togekiss. I can see this dropping to C at some point but I'm fine with B- for now.

Theorymon:I think B- is the best place for Toxtricity. I do like its damage output and it tends to punish a lot of slower teams since a lot of stuff that takes Electric attacks well can be hit hard (even Excadrill takes like 40% from Boomburst, and Fire Punch 2HKOs it), but its also slow and doesn't do that great vs more offensive teams.

Inteleon: C -> B-
1_TrickPhony: Rise to B-. I've talked a ton about this, mon is too fast/strong to be in C.

cant say: sure

DragonWhale: Agree. This thing is faster than Cinderace and has a great offensive presence.

greilmercenary9: B-

marilli: Agree. This thing has a great offensive presence and a great matchup vs offense. It being held back by water checks is bad, but that alone doesn't turn it unviable because offense is the majority of the meta.

Psynergy: B- Yes, maybe we're overselling it but Inteleon definitely takes great advantage of its incredible Speed and Special Attack for Dynamaxing. Water-type nuke is not the most desirable role for a team though so B- seems like its peak for now.

Theorymon: Yeah sure, I'm not a huge fan of Inteleon, but its a decent Max Airstream sweeper (though it competes with Gyarados obviously) and you can sorta use it like a discount Torrent Greninja.

Toxapex: B+ -> A-
1_TrickPhony: Rise to A- Premier defensive mon in our generation, has an incredible ability to timer stall and dynamax stall. Regen ensures its a problem the entirety of the time it is alive. A-.

cant say: big no from me. like yeah it benefits from timer but it doesn't do anything. I've been very underwhelmed by it so far

DragonWhale: Agree. A fantastic defensive Pokemon that has all the tools it needs to make it very difficult for the opponent to break through

greilmercenary9: A-

marilli: Agree. blobpex

Psynergy: A-, I agree that this is one of the best defensive Pokemon at the moment, but is it good enough to rise? I guess I'm only skeptical because I haven't seen much of it lately, but it's certainly on par with Ferrothorn at least so sure I'll go with the crowd on this one.

Theorymon: This is one of the best defensive mons outside of Corviknight, it certainly deserves the A- slot imo!

Conkeldurr: B- -> B
1_TrickPhony: Rise to B

cant say: no. the format is like 70% fairy and/or flying spam. it beats a handful of mons but it feels bad outside those. so basically it's like the 6th addition to your team to do something specific. feels pretty B- to me

DragonWhale: Agree. Guts in general is really good synergy with dynamax and conk generally hits decently hard

greilmercenary9: B

marilli: Agree. Guts is good, anti Yawn is good, priority is good. It's also really tanky and can Dynamax decently well as long as you invest correctly, which is honestly a surprise to me because Max Knuckle sucks ass so much, but u are generally maxing just to nail Fighting resists or maxing to take hits vs fighting weaks like Exca anyways.

Psynergy: B, I've only seen this thing like once or twice ever, but on paper it looks very strong so I'm not sure why that is. Maybe Flame Orb being impossible doesn't help, but yeah this is one of the best Fighting-type options out there so B seems fine.

Theorymon: Sure I'm fine with this, Conkeldurr hits hard and has useful priority, which makes it more useful than most of the B- cast imo.

Lapras: B- -> B
1_TrickPhony: Rise to B (simply due to the fact gmax is out v soon so if we dont rise now we are gonna need to for sure later, and its already probably on the border).

cant say: yes

DragonWhale: Its main strength is reliant on hitting Sheer Colds which makes this rise a little iffy. Would be worth considering once gigantimax is allowed.

greilmercenary9: B

marilli: Agree.

Psynergy: B, I don't think we should be factoring in the future G-Max Lapras when moving it now, but I honestly think this thing is good enough for B rank as is anyway. It's super fat, has great STAB moves to work with, and can threaten stuff with Sheer Cold. Might be a bit dependent on Sheer Cold at times but it has very useful matchups that make it worth considering.

Theorymon: I'd stick with B- here just because its so reliant on Sheer Cold atm. Once the Gmax is allowed though, then we'll have a different story here!

Seismitoad: B- -> B
1_TrickPhony: Keep B-

cant say: yes

DragonWhale: Agree. Can be defensive to wall rotom, or offensive as the best swift swimmer.

greilmercenary9: B-

marilli: Agree. The SR defensive set with Toxic has merit. So does swift swim (which can be physical or special). It's not easy to play around at all.

Psynergy: B, This thing looks so bad but it isn't, the fact that it can feign a bulky SR setter but go for the Dynamax rain sweep is actually not bad at all. It has honestly not impressed me much in practice but the pressure it puts on preview is very real. I'm fine with B.

Theorymon: Sure, the fact that the defensive and offensive sets are so different set this thing apart from the B- crowd for me.

Tyranitar: A+ -> A
1_TrickPhony: Drop to A. A is a really impressive crowd, and so its not an insult to say it is the same level as the titans that currently exist in A. Its most common set atm is its lead set, and while its a pretty impressive lead, I can't definitely say its a better lead than Hippowdon right now as a sand/rocks lead. It deserves to be higher than Hippo obviously because it has fantastic offenses and can still use both physical and special, but nowadays people have plans for offensive Ttar, ranging from Corvi/Ditto/Drill where it cant quite take over a game like a Pokemon like Togekiss can atm, and doesn't have the versatility that Rotom-H has to fit on teams atm. I will be monitoring it closely and will not be opposed to voting it up in a future slate should it be warranted.

cant say: no. who is disrespecting this thing like that?

DragonWhale: Disagree. This thing is the definition of stat abuse and its multiple weaknesses working well with WP does not make this a A mon.

greilmercenary9: A+

marilli: Disagree. This mon is just getting started lmao that very basic set physical set is already really good, but there's far more things Tar can do that really fucks them oover.

Psynergy: A+, While Tyranitar does seem less absurdly oppressive than initially thought, this thing just has so much stats it's so difficult to win a 1v1 trade with it. I can see a case for this drop someday maybe, but right now Tyranitar is still a huge pain for a lot of Pokemon to deal with so I think it's fine where it is.

Theorymon: I think TTar should stay in A+, this thing has damn near unmatched verstaility outside of Dragapult, it does more than just the physical WP set, with AV and Special WP being good too imo!

Dracovish: B -> B-
1_TrickPhony: Abstain

cant say: no. some hard checks developed in the meta like gastro etc but it puts so much pressure at team preview you gotta respect it

DragonWhale: Disagree. Almost all teams have a way to stop this mon but the teams without an immunity still struggle heavily against it.

greilmercenary9: B

marilli: Agree. This mons just bad. Useless vs offense, every defensive team has immunities. Just use Darmanitan.

Psynergy: B-, I have my biases but I'm with marilli on this one. I do think Dracovish should be respected at preview but when you compare it to Darmanitan...it's not the most impressive.

Theorymon: I gotta disagree here. While most good teams have something for Dracovish in mind, the CB set can be quite difficult to switch into if you don't have a Water immunity, and when compared to darm, that Water STAB is pretty helpful against a lot of bulky stuff that might Dynamax their way outta a KO (like Rotom-H for example).

Arcanine: B -> B-
1_TrickPhony: Drop to B-

cant say: yes. hasn't survived season 1 hype unfort

DragonWhale: Agree

greilmercenary9: B-

marilli: Agree. This mons just bad.

Psynergy: B-, I had a higher opinion of this early on but yeah I have not seen or considered this at all lately. Not a bad Pokemon in theory but definitely not on par with the likes of Quagsire or Duraludon.

Theorymon: Yeah this is a lesser Fire-type as far as I'm concerned. I don't hate it, but Cinderace has sorta made the more offensive ones die out.

Corsola-Galar: B -> B-
1_TrickPhony: Drop to B-

cant say: yes. been using this extensively. it was amazing to begin with but now it gets bopped

DragonWhale: Agree

greilmercenary9: B-

marilli: Agree. This mons bad.

Psynergy: B-, I used to hate fighting Corsola but this thing fell off pretty hard. I don't think it's bad but it is very passive on its own and struggles a lot against special attackers. I don't mind where this ends up.

Theorymon: Sure, I don't think Galarian Corsola is bad but it was overhyped for sure imo.

Aegislash: B+ -> A-
1_TrickPhony: Rise to A-

cant say: yes

DragonWhale: Somewhat disagree but fine if it rises

greilmercenary9: A-

marilli: Agree. Sash and WP both strong.

Psynergy: A-, I've already made my case for this, but Aegislash is still good and I'm definitely a fan of it at the moment. Probably about as high as I'll want to see it though it's very good at what it does.

Theorymon: Hell yes, the Sash and WP sets are so damn good, and a lot of people realizing "o yeah you dont HAVE to use WP on Dynamaxers" gives it the extra bit of versatility Aegislash needed to rise imo.

Whimsicott: B- -> B
1_TrickPhony: Rise to B

cant say: yes

DragonWhale: Abstain

greilmercenary9: B

marilli: Lol idc

Psynergy: B, Also made my case on this one, I'm less attached to this one but I do think Whimsicott is a very annoying and disruptive Pokemon that can enable its teammates.

Theorymon: Yep, Whimsicott's support set + subseed set together make this worth more than the sum of its parts imo.

Haxorus: B -> B-
1_TrickPhony: Abstain

cant say: no. rare sweeper that isn't hard stopped by Mimikyu in the back. great coverage. strong. stay B

DragonWhale: Abstain

greilmercenary9: B

marilli: Lol idc

Psynergy: B-, I've said my part here too, not bad at all but its collection of traits aren't particularly desirable at the moment. I think its declining usage speaks for itself.

Theorymon: I don't really mind where Haxrous is placed, just as long as its the same as Hawlucha imo. I think Haxorus is pretty good, but its sorta a pain in the ass to set up.

Hawlucha: C -> B-
1_TrickPhony: B-

cant say: abstain. haven't used nor seen enough

DragonWhale: Agree

greilmercenary9: B-

marilli: Agree

Psynergy: B-, Similar to Haxorus, I think Mold Breaker gives Hawlucha a niche in the current metagame, but as an Airstream sweeper that Mimikyu can't stall out. If it wasn't so dependent on boosting its Attack I'd almost say it's better than Haxorus, but that Attack stat really holds it back.

Theorymon: Yep totally, while its frail and hard to set up without Dynamaxer, its very capable of late game sweeping just because of its speed and snowballing potential.

Type: Null: C -> B- or B
1_TrickPhony: Rise to B-

cant say: this I don't understand. it was hyped when DW brought it a tour game but it didn't do anything. I haven't seen a single one on ladder. I mean I could abstain if I felt like I'm just not educated on Null's epicness but I feel it should stay C for now

DragonWhale: B- is fine

greilmercenary9: B-

marilli: B-

Psynergy: Have never seen this actually used so I can't comment, but B is definitely too high. Others seem to think decently of it so I'm not opposed to B- though.

Theorymon: I used this extensively last season, and I think B- is probably a good fit for it. It's a great, bulky support mon hampred by the lack of recovery and pitiful damage output.

Milotic: C -> B-
1_TrickPhony: Keep C

cant say: abstain. I don't think it's too good but haven't seen enough. ones I ran into were bad tho

DragonWhale: Agree

greilmercenary9: B-

marilli: Agree

Psynergy: C, I was more keen on this one when it was first brought up but now I'm less sure. I do think it's pretty solid so I can be convinced on this one, but I think I'm fine with C on this for now.

Theorymon: Yep, its not as good as Toxapex, but not being weak to Ground rules tbh.

Doublade: UR -> C
1_TrickPhony: Rise to C

cant say: sure

DragonWhale: Agree

greilmercenary9: Abstain

marilli: Lol idc

Psynergy: I've literally never seen this. Abstain.

Theorymon: I gotta abstain from this, I have yet to see Doublade in action (though it is on my list of things to try lol)

Darmanitan-Galar: A- -> A
1_TrickPhony: Rise to A. Darm is just so flexible right now and people are beginning to discover how freaking good its band set is. Living in a world where Darm hits as hard as it does, and you cant tell whether it will outspeed all the unboosted metagame or break through every wall you have on your team is a tall task to defend against. A for sure.

cant say: sure

DragonWhale: Agree. Super easy to use, always a threat in team preview.

greilmercenary9: A

marilli: Agree

Psynergy: A, I almost nominated this one myself, yeah Scarf Darmanitan puts on a lot of pressure at Team Preview and is also strong enough to dish out big hits. Being an awkward Dynamax user probably limits it from going higher than that but otherwise it seems solidly A tier.

Theorymon: Yep A is a good fit, this thing has an insane amount of team preview pressure.



Changes:
Rhyperior from B+ to A-
Cinderace from B to B+
Inteleon from C to B-
Toxapex from B+ to A-
Conkeldurr from B- to B
Lapras from B- to B
Seismitoad from B- to B
Arcanine from B to B-
Corsola-Galar from B to B-
Aegislash from B+ to A-
Whimiscott from B- to B
Hawlucha from C to B-
Type: Null from C to B-
Milotic from C to B-
Doublade from UR to C
Darmanitan-Galar to A
Rotom-Fan: B- -> C
Indeedee-F: C -> UR
Indeedee-M: C -> UR
Appletun: C -> UR
Silvally: C -> UR
Vikavolt: C -> UR
Polteageist: C -> UR
 
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PPB

Banned deucer.
I'm trying very hard not to be depressed by y'all not putting Galarian Darmanitan in S yet again. LMFAO!
 
A decent update to the VR which I think improves it quite a bit.

I should make one note where I clearly disagreed with quite a few people on the VR council. I was the one that nominated Tyranitar to A rank. I don't want people to think I'm doing this with any sort of disrespect so I'll add some proper reasoning. Probably in retrospect I should have nominated Rotom-Heat there too, but Tyranitar was the most obvious one since I personally think it is inferior to Rotom-H (tho it is v.close). It does seem strange to have Corviknight and Togekiss alone in A+, but truly I'm of the opinion that these pokemon, both in terms of usage and importance to the meta are a step apart from the pokemon below them. I'm not going to renominate it because what's done is done but I didn't really explain myself properly other than saying Tyranitar is nowhere near as good as Togekiss.

To me, the quandary of Tyranitar is something that reflects Mega Blaziken in the previous generation. I have no doubt if not now, we will eventually end up nominating Tyranitar down unless there is a huge overhaul of its role in the meta. Mega Blaziken was amazing on paper, absurd offensive stats, excellent ability and had great versatility, however suffered due to its intrinsic flaws and the development of the meta. Tyranitars strengths, its absurd bulk, power and versatility are enough to keep it perpetually as a top level threat however it is unsuited for the metagame.

If it is truly 6th best in the game and people have long known how absurd weakness policy is on Tyranitar, why is it 20th when it comes to Nouthuca top 1000 blog team usage in S2? Why does hardly anyone outside of this community rate it? I know that many are not a fan of using top team usage as an indicator for viability but I'd like to use it to point out something.

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I try not to fall into the trap of looking at the individual pokemon and its theoretical merits but rather look at it in comparison to the pokemon that surround it. For example, taking the top 10 used pokemon on that list, I'd say TTar beats 2 of these pokemon most of the time without Dynamaxing, which are Dragapult and Hydreigon. With Dragapult, Tyranitar still has to watch for Will-o-Wisp. The rest of the pokemon will generally beat Tyranitar. Now this changes if you Dynamax, but there is an opportunity cost in Dynamaxing. Without Dynamaxing, Tyranitar takes too much damage from these pokemon with its slow speed to sweep or just straight dies. Take Tyranitar vs. Darmanitan-Galar. Tyranitar can Dynamax, live Superpower, get weakness policy and KO Darminatan sure. In the vast majority of games, this is a favourable trade for the Darmanitan player unless Darminatan is a specific win condition. Since all you do is go into your Mimikyu, Excadrill, Togekiss, Corviknight, Aegislash, Rotom-W, Gyarados or one of the many other pokemon and nearly all top teams probably have multiple OHKOs on Tyranitar and finish off what is left of Tyranitar's HP and now you have Dynamax and they don't so it is not actually a 1 for 1 trade.

Why I originally compared Tyranitar to Togekiss is that Togekiss is different. Togekiss gets Weakness Policy and then clicks Max Airstream, becoming one of the fastest pokemon in the game. Even Rhyperior on the other end is generally in Trick Room, it does not have to take Multiple strong hits. People have also become better at playing around Weakness Policy, although that item is obviously still completely busted. My guess is that people do not use Tyranitar as much because they have found this issue.
 
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PPB

Banned deucer.
Mimikyu may seem strong right now but I think eventually Dragon types will give him the boot and take back their rightful place as king. Absurdly, Haxorus, a pokemon people shit talked for every generation after its release, has already adapted and become high tier in this meta, because it can kill the damn 'Kyu.
 

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