Talonflame [QC accepted : 2/3] [ QC rejected: 1/3]

#yolobird #bravestbird

Overview
########

Talonflame's claim to fame is a fantastic ability in Gale Wings. Giving its Flying-type moves +1 priority, Gale Wings most notably lets Talonflame utilize a powerful STAB Brave Bird to strike down frail or weakened Pokemon before they can react. Examples of these include Mega Blaziken, Darkrai, and weakened Geomancy Xerneas (Talonflame does a solid 57-67% to standard 108 HP / 28 Def Geomancy Xerneas). Unfortunately, Gale Wings is the only thing that makes it viable at all. A crippling 4x weakness to Stealth Rock and poor defenses mean Talonflame cannot switch in on virtually anything bar predicted Will-O-Wisps and Grass-type attacks, which it is 4x resistant to. This frailty is further compounded by Brave Bird recoil coupled with Talonflame's low base HP. As a whole, Talonflame faces heavy competition for a team slot from Ho-Oh, so it must be underscored that what differentiates Talonflame from Ho-Oh, or indeed any other Pokemon, is priority on its Flying-type moves, albeit at the cost of compromised bulk and longevity. Nonetheless, moving first with an attack as powerful as Brave Bird goes a long way in keeping speedy offensive powerhouses under control. If your team has trouble handling such Pokemon, Talonflame is your best bird.


Choice Band
########
name: Choice Band
move 1: Brave Bird
move 2: Flare Blitz
move 3: U-Turn
move 4: Tailwind / Toxic
ability: Gale Wings
item: Choice Band
evs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 164 Spe
nature: Adamant

Moves
========

Brave Bird gets +1 priority from Gale Wings; boosted by STAB and a Choice Band, it packs tremendous power. Frail Pokemon like Mega Gengar are KOed outright, while Mega Mewtwo Y is OHKOed after it has taken Stealth Rock damage, and 0 HP Choice Scarf Kyogre takes a hefty 75-86% from the move. Flare Blitz incinerates Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Klefki. Note that the latter's access to Prankster ensures Talonflame will not emerge from the skirmish unscathed, although Gale Wings giving Brave Bird priority means that Talonflame is largely unhindered by paralysis (aside from the 25% immobility rate), which is nifty. Unfortunately, Flare Blitz does not see much use outside of this. U-Turn allows Talonflame to pivot out of predicted switch-ins, preserving your team's momentum. Notably, it hits Tyranitar super effectively. Lastly, as with Brave Bird, Tailwind gets elevated priority and can prove invaluable in clinching a late-game sweep by a relevant teammate. Toxic can be used over Tailwind to cripple predicted switch-ins such as Rock Arceus and Lugia. Will-O-Wisp is another option that is less useful against walls and tanks but proves much more effective in crippling physically oriented offensive checks to Talonflame such as Zekrom, which can comfortably switch in on a Brave Bird at full health.


Set Details
========

252 Attack EVs with an Adamant nature let Talonflame hit as hard as possible. 164 EVs are invested in Speed to outrun positive-natured base 100 Speed Pokemon which is useful for situations when you decide you want to U-turn on Palkia, for example. Outspeeding base 99 Speed Pokemon like Xerneas when locked into Flare Blitz is also nice. 4 EVs go in Defense to give Genesect the Download boost in Special Attack (since physically-based Genesect are relatively more common and generally more threatening). Finally, 88 EVs are invested in HP to cushion against recoil damage from Brave Bird and let Talonflame take hits marginally better. This also gives Talonflame a HP number that lets it switch into Stealth Rock twice. As far as items go, a Choice Band is by far the most viable option as it maximizes Talonflame's offensive potential. The inability to change moves is a worthwhile trade-off as Talonflame will be spamming Brave Bird most of the time anyway.


Usage Tips
========

Do not use Brave Bird indiscriminately as the recoil will quickly take its toll on Talonflame; rather, analyse your opponent's team in Team Preview and determine which Pokemon you intend to hit with the move. Try to bring Talonflame in via double switching into Pokemon it can kill or force out since it is too frail to switch into anything bar Will-O-Wisp and Grass-type moves, which it 4x resists. Use U-Turn or Toxic if you anticipate that the opponent will switch in a Pokemon that checks Talonflame, be it a physical tank such as Lugia, or an unrevealed Arceus-forme. You should endeavor to let Talonflame switch in as much as possible; keep Stealth Rock off your side of the field as far as you can as Talonflame can enter the field a paltry maximum of twice with Stealth Rock active. Lastly, do not hesitate to sacrifice Talonflame to use Tailwind late-game, if it means opening a window of opportunity for a teammate to sweep.


Team Options
========

Stealth Rock support is recommended to pressure the switches that Talonflame forces. Landorus-T, Groudon, and Ferrothorn are good setters as they can handle Zekrom, a key offensive check to Talonflame. If it is used alongside one of the mentioned Ground-type Stealth Rock setters, Ferrothorn can provide additional Spikes support which further pressures switches and aids a late-game Talonflame cleanup. Scizor is a good teammate as it can pressure Rock-types and bring Talonflame in safely with a slow U-Turn. An answer to Extreme Killer Arceus at +2 Attack is required, as it can set up on and overwhelm Talonflame with +2 priority Extreme Speed. Mega Gengar or Ghost Arceus are acceptable answers to Extreme Killer Arceus. Fast, powerful Fighting-types like Mega Mewtwo X and Mega Blaziken are much appreciated as they pressure many of Talonflame's checks, such as Dialga, Rock-types, and Heatran. Fairy-types can take on many of the physical walls that plague Talonflame, such as Yveltal and Giratina; along with a Ground-type, they can keep opposing Zekrom users guessing. Finally, it is pertinent to mention that Talonflame is comfortable on teams utilising Tyranitar and Excadrill, as the former sets Stealth Rock and checks Ho-Oh, while the latter has access to Rapid Spin and has a good typing to take on Zekrom.


Other Options
########

252 Speed EVs can be used with a Jolly Nature to outspeed Darkrai and all Arceus formes. A set comprising Swords Dance, Acrobatics, Flare Blitz, and Tailwind with no item can be used with Encore support from Wobbuffet. Encore can lock the opponent into a move such as Will-O-Wisp, which gives Talonflame a free turn to set up.


Checks & Counters
########

**Stealth Rock**: Stripping 50% of Talonflame's HP upon each switch in, Stealth Rock checks Talonflame hugely in itself, especially since it typically does not use a recovery move.

**Electric-types**: Zekrom and Electric Arceus can switch into a Brave Bird, take another one, and then KO Talonflame with Bolt Strike/Outrage and Judgment respectively. Electric Arceus is especially dangerous as it can choose to set up Calm Mind on Talonflame while healing off damage with Recover. Thundurus cannot switch into Brave Bird but is perfectly capable of revenge killing Talonflame.

**Rock-types**: Rock Arceus and Tyranitar resist both of Talonflame's STAB moves, although Tyranitar loathes taking U-Turn. In return, both can cleanly OHKO Talonflame with their STAB moves.

**Heatran**: Resists Brave Bird and is immune to Flare Blitz. That being said, it cannot do much to harm Talonflame short of using Roar to rack up Stealth Rock damage.

**Dialga**: Can switch into Brave Bird but does not like Flare Blitz. Its Draco Meteor OHKOs Talonflame neatly.

**Physical Tanks**: Lugia, Physically Defensive Yveltal, Giratina-A, and Physically Defensive Ho-Oh all take < 50% from Brave Bird and can stall it out with Roost/Rest, causing Talonflame to eventually go down to recoil damage in a one-on-one situation.

**Extreme Speed**: At +2 priority, this move hits before Talonflame's Brave Bird and can pick it off if weakened. Extreme Killer Arceus is the most notable user of the move, but Choice Band Genesect and Swords Dance Arceus Ground/Ghost/Dragon are others to look out for as well.

Overview
########

  • Gale Wings confers incredible utility on Talonflame, granting its powerful STAB Brave Bird +1 priority, which lets it strike down frail or weakened Pokemon before they can react. Examples of these include Mega Blaziken, Darkrai, and weakened Geomancy Xerneas (Talonflame does 57-67% to the standard 108 HP / 28 Def Geomancy Xerneas).
  • Sadly, Talonflame's ability is the only thing making it viable at all.
  • Crippling 4x weakness to Stealth Rock. Also, poor defenses mean it cannot switch in on virtually anything bar Grass-type attacks, which it is 4x resistant to, and predicted Will-O-Wisps. This is compounded by Brave Bird recoil + its low base HP.
  • Faces heavy competition from Ho-Oh for a team slot. It must be reiterated that its main draw is Gale Wings giving it priority on quality Flying-type moves in Brave Bird and Tailwind, albeit at the cost of much reduced bulk and longevity.

Choice Band
########
name: Choice Band
move 1: Brave Bird
move 2: Flare Blitz
move 3: U-Turn
move 4: Tailwind
ability: Gale Wings
item: Choice Band
evs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 164 Spe
nature: Adamant

Moves
========

  • Brave Bird gets +1 priority from Gale Wings; boosted by STAB and a Choice Band, it hits very hard.
  • [*]252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 108 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 238-282 (56.6 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    [*]252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 202-238 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
    [*]252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 283-334 (108 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    [*]252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 315-372 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
    [*]252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 256-303 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    [*]252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 246-289 (62.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    [*]252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 256-303 (61.5 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • Flare Blitz incinerates Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Klefki, although the latter's access to Prankster means Talonflame will not emerge from the skirmish unscathed. Note that Gale Wings Brave Bird means that Talonflame is largely unhindered by paralysis outside of the 25% immobility rate, which is nifty. Unfortunately, Flare Blitz does not see much use outside of this.
  • U-Turn allows Talonflame to pivot out of switch-ins to it. Notably, it hits Tyranitar super effectively.
  • Like Brave Bird, Tailwind gets elevated priority and can prove invaluable in clinching a late-game sweep by a relevant teammate.
  • Toxic can be used over Tailwind to cripple switchins such as Rock Arceus and Lugia.

Set Details
========

  • 252 Attack EVs with an Adamant nature let Talonflame hit as hard as possible.
  • 164 EVs are invested in Speed to outrun positive-natured base 100 Speed Pokemon; for example, if you decide you want to U-Turn on Palkia. Outspeeding base 99 Speed Pokemon like Xerneas when locked into Flare Blitz is also nice.
  • The remaining 88 EVs are invested in HP to cushion against recoil damage from Brave Bird and let Talonflame take hits marginally better.
  • 4 EVs in Defense to give Genesect the Download boost in Special Attack
  • A Choice Band maximizes Talonflame's offensive potential; the inability to change moves is a worthwhile trade-off as Talonflame will be spamming Brave Bird most of the time anyway.

Usage Tips
========

  • Try to bring Talonflame in via double switching into Pokemon it can kill or force out. It is too frail to switch into anything bar Will-O-Wisp and Grass-type moves, which it 4x resists.
  • Use U-Turn on predicted switch-ins of Pokemon that check Talonflame
  • Keep Stealth Rock off your side of the field as much as possible. Talonflame can switch in a maximum of twice with Stealth Rock active. If it uses Brave Bird after it switches in the first time, it cannot switch in again.
  • Do not hesitate to sacrifice Talonflame to use Tailwind late-game, if it means opening a window of opportunity for a teammate to sweep.

Team Options
========

  • Stealth Rock support is recommended to pressure the switches that Talonflame forces. Landorus-T, Groudon, and Ferrothorn are good setters as they can handle Zekrom, a key offensive check to Talonflame. If it is used alongside one of the mentioned Ground-type setters, Ferrothorn can provide additional Spikes support which further pressures switches and aids a late-game Talonflame cleanup.
  • Talonflame is comfortable on teams utilising Tyranitar and Excadrill, as the former sets Stealth Rock and checks Ho-Oh, while the latter has access to Rapid Spin and has a good typing to take on Zekrom.
  • Scizor is a good teammate as it can pressure Rock-types and bring Talonflame in safely with a slow U-Turn.
  • An answer to +2 Extreme Killer Arceus is required, as it can set up on and overwhelm Talonflame with +2 priority Extreme Speed. Mega Gengar or Ghost-Arceus can do this.
  • Fast, powerful Fighting-types like Mega Mewtwo X and Mega Blaziken are much appreciated as they pressure many of Talonflame's checks, such as Dialga, Rock-types, and Heatran.
  • Fairy-types can take on many of the physical walls that plague Talonflame, such as Yveltal and Giratina; along with a Ground-type, they can keep opposing Zekrom users guessing.


Other Options
########

A set comprising Swords Dance, Acrobatics, Flare Blitz, and Tailwind, with no item can be used with Encore support from Wobbuffet. Encore can lock the opponent into a move such as Will-O-Wisp, which gives Talonflame a free turn to set up.


Checks & Counters
########

  • Stealth Rock
  • Electric-types: Zekrom, Electric Arceus, Thundurus-I
  • Rock-types: Rock Arceus, Tyranitar
  • Heatran
  • Dialga
  • Physical Tanks: Lugia, Physically Defensive Yveltal, Giratina-A, Physically Defensive Ho-Oh
  • Extreme Speed
 
Last edited:

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
totally need natural gift in OO


jk

it can only switch in twice to SR assuming no BB recoil (lol gl with that) and not being hit by any attacks (gl with that too), u said thrice.
 
I'd probably emphasize that it's the best Blaziken check / revenge killer out there, and if SR isn't up (and Blaze isn't at +2) then Talonflame can even switch in on any move and OHKO Blaziken.
I also found this calc funny, it just goes to show just how frail Talonflame is when its OHKOd by a strong resisted hit.
+2 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 332-391 (111.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Run enough speed to beat Palkia imo in case you decide you wanna U-turn on it. Talon needs Adamant and I don't think it can beat anything else relevant so just run enough to beat Palkia.

Ferrothorn is a handy partner since it gives Spikes support to potentially let Talonflame clean lategame. Also it checks Kyogre, Zekrom, and Rock Arceus while Talonflame checks Blaziken.

The only thing worth putting in OO imo is Swords Dance with Wobbuffet support.

This thing has a lot of competition with Ho-Oh for that teamslot so make sure to stress stress stress Gale Wings.

QC Approved 1/3
 

Theorymon

Long Live Super Mario Maker! 2015-2024
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
Okay so I'm not going to QC approve this yet because I've actually only really tried the SD set with Wobbuffet support (I need to test that out more but I'm leaning towards agreeing with Fireburn that it should be other options), but here is something that still applies to the CB set that I'd like mentioned: I think mentioning Toxic might not be a bad idea, its nice for stuff like Rockceus. Maybe slash it in front of Tailwind.

Also, maybe put Will-O-Wisp in other options, it probably won't do much besides burn Groudon, but it's not like Talonflame has a lot of viable moves in the first place!

EDIT: Forget the Tailwind thing in the overview, I still like the move but you should probably just focus the overview on "dat priority Brave Bird", which is the entire reason to use Talonflame over Ho-Oh :P.

EDIT #2: Here's something nice to mention for Flare Blitz: While getting paralyzed by Klefki does suck, Brave Bird's priority means that Talonflame actually isn't totally screwed over by it, which is nice!
 
Last edited:
Fireburn Theorymon

I implemented all the suggested changes barring the addition of Will-O-Wisp as IMO Talonflame just cannot spare the moveslot (it absolutely wants Tailwind/Toxic... I slashed Tailwind first though). Also dw, I'll take note to place adequate emphasis on Gale Wings in the writeup (added a bullet in Overview for now).
 

shrang

General Kenobi
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
- Mention Jolly 252 Spe as an alternative EV spread so you can U-turn on Darkrai before it puts you to sleep.
- In the same vein, Me First can let you chuck Dark Void back at Darkrai if you're running Jolly max Speed :P - can put in OO

Otherwise, qc 2/3
 
Toxic or will o wisp are good options on the last spot, especially will o wisp to fuck with zekrom, but toxic can be nice for all the random bulky shit that can otherwise wall it essily
 
I strongly advocate mentioning Will-O-Wisp along with Toxic, since early/mid game your opponent will likely have something that can stomach Talonflame's attacks at full health, like a Zekrom or physically defensive Lando-T. You also exaggerate Talonflame's power when in reality, taking 63-75% off a specially defensive Kyogre is nothing special. Gale Wings is important enough to make Talon viable in Ubers, but it's still not very good and I'd never use this over Ho-Oh when the stuff it revenges can be dealt with by something like Genesect or powerful priority.

You know what? I'm actually going to reject this. Gale Wings+Brave Bird SHOULD make almost anything viable but after actually using Talonbitchflame for an extended period of time, it's ridiculously frail and simply does not hit hard enough. It cannot spam U-Turn as well as it would like thanks to how weak the move is (and that nasty x4 weakness to SR), which sucks. Talonflame doesn't hit hard enough to do much damage to balance and stall teams and most HO teams carry Extremekiller, which walks all over this 1-1. Revenging weakened Geomancy Xerneas is really nice and strong priority is always good, but Talonflame's massive flaws outweight its benefits.

QC Rejected 1/3
 
Last edited:
I altered the Kyogre variant to 0 HP Scarf instead of 252 HP. It should be more relevant for the purposes of the analysis, anyway. Added Will-O-Wisp to moves and mentioned that it cripples offensive checks much more effectively than Toxic.
 
04:16 Melee_Mewtwo umm you can just copy pasta from logs from here
04:16 Melee_Mewtwo I just don't really think it has enough of a niche
04:16 Melee_Mewtwo i mean it *can* do things but
04:16 Melee_Mewtwo where would you really want it ?
04:17 Melee_Mewtwo best case scenario you get to brave bird spam except
04:17 Melee_Mewtwo with the sr weak and recoil
04:17 Melee_Mewtwo you are going to die very quickly
04:17 Melee_Mewtwo and its not like talon was adding anything to your team in the mean time
04:17 Melee_Mewtwo defog isn't really an option since een with cb
04:17 Melee_Mewtwo it really likes having hazards up
04:17 Melee_Mewtwo to actually kill things
04:18 Melee_Mewtwo the best role i can see it filling is a sort of offensive revenge killer
04:18 Melee_Mewtwo but its horribly unreliable
04:18 Melee_Mewtwo idk it just feels very stunfisk-esque
04:18 Melee_Mewtwo it can sorta accomplish things
04:18 Melee_Mewtwo but thtere's just no reason to use it

-(surprise) Melee Mewtwo

QC Rejected 2/3
 
  • Like
Reactions: Muk

Theorymon

Long Live Super Mario Maker! 2015-2024
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
Sorry Malefic, but since this got rejected I gotta move this along, sorry this didn't get rejected before you wrote it (If you're wondering what my opinion is, I never really got a chance to test it out enough, sorry).
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top