Tangela (Sub Seed) [QC (0/3)]

[Caz the DogWatcher]

http://http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/tangela

[SET]
name: Sub Seed
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Stun Spore
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Eviolite
ability: Regenerator
nature: Bold
evs: 236 HP / 216 Def / 56 Spe

Why this deserves to be on-site

• Because we all hate Ferrothorn, and this Tangela loves switching into Ferrothorn.
• After Eviolite Boost Tangela has 330 HP and 528 Def. To put that in perspective, Max attack CB Haxorus using Outrage does 48.1 ~ 56.6%.
• Regenerator allows Tangela to heal 1/3 of its max HP upon switching out, which is highly conducive to the sub-seeding strategy.
• Tangela has several advantages over Tangrowth when running this sub-seed set: (1) Tangela is bulkier than Tangrowth and (2) Tangela is faster than Tangrowth. While 10 additional base speed may not seem like much, it means that Tangela only has to run 56 Speed EVs to outspeed CB Scizor and nail it with HP Fire, whereas Tangrowth would have to use up 136 EVs to achieve that.
• Stun Spore + Leech Seed + Substitute is an incredibly annoying combo to deal with. HP Fire can take out Ferrothorn, Scizor, Forretress, and grass types, all of whom would counter this set otherwise.

Additional Comments

• As previously mentioned, 56 Speed EVs let you hit CB Scizor (8 Speed EVs) with HP Fire.
• The remaining EVs are allocated such that physical bulk is maximized (I used X-Act's Defense EVs applet to determine this optimal spread).
• No investment is made in Special Defense because Tangela, like its evolution, should never try to spounge special hits.

Teammates & Counters

• Tangela functions best in the absense of weather or under the sun, due the residual damage inflicted by Sandstorn and Hail (which Tangela can't heal off with leftovers) and Rain makes HP Fire much weaker. As such, Tangela partners well with "anti-weather" pokemon like Sunny Day Heatran.
• Since Tangela takes special hits like Shedinja takes a Stone Edge, it needs to be paired with special sponges. Specially Defensive Heatran is an excellent candidate for this role.
• Rapid Spin support is appreciated, though not absolutely necessary, given Tangela's lack of Leftovers recovery.
• Gliscor and Gyrados can shut Tangela down with Taunt. Rotom-W can switch into both, in addition to having great defensive synergy with Tangela.
• Sub-Disable Gengar is another good teammate as it can beat Celebi, another problematic Pokemon, in addition to Gliscor.
• Scizor makes another good partner as it can defeat most Celebi and Reuniclus variants.

 

[New World Order]

My only issue with this set is that Tangrowth is just plain better. 404 HP / 383 Def is not much less bulkier than 330 HP / 528 Def, Leftovers further closes this gap. Speaking of Leftovers, it is especially important on a Subseeder. You wont always be able to get in a successful Leech Seed, and as such, your HP will have been drained by Substitute for no reason. With Tangrowth, at least you have Leftovers to mitigate this issue.

 

[MaestroXXVI]

Well, If you fail the leech seed, you can always switch out and regenerate to offset the sub

 

[Harsha]

I actually agree that you need Leftovers to properly run a SubSeed set. You won't get enough HP back each turn without the reliable Lefties recovery. Also, though the Defense is impressive, Tangrowth's Defense is already very high. Though I think this could work in theory, I believe that it accomplishes the same thing as Tangrowth.

 

[Caz the DogWatcher]

@ New World Order: If it's just a question of Tangrowth vs. Tangela, then here's my argument. Four points.
1: Tangela is bulkier. You say that

404 HP / 383 Def is not much less bulkier than 330 HP / 528 Def

however this is an invalid comparison because a Tangrowth with 404 HP / 383 Def can't achieve those stats and have enough speed EVs left over to outspeed CB Scizor whereas a Tangela with 330 HP / 528 Def can. So unless we're comparing a Tangrowth that can't hit CB Scizor before it U-turns with a Tangela that can (in which Tangela is a lot better for that reason alone) those aren't the stats we should be comparing. Tangrowth actually needs 136 Speed EVs to outspeed CB Scizor (I said 132 earlier because I forgot about HP fire dropping its speed), and when you invest the remaining to maximize physical bulk you get final stats of 380 HP / 374 Def instead of 404 HP / 383 Def. I do realize this is relatively small nitpick, but I felt it was worthy of pointing out.
2: Although it is true that one you factor in leftovers that Tangela and Tangrowth have roughly equivilant bulk, it is important to realize that absolute bulk and leftovers-recovery-adjusted-bulk are not equivalent, nor are they equally important. For this sub-seeder set absolute bulk is more important because you have Regenerator. Normally, for slow-ish pokemon at least, it's almost just as important to keep them at a health HP percentage as it is to keep them alive. For example, a Blissey at 13% HP is basically as good as dead. Regenerator changes this. If your Tangela survives at 13% it's ok, because you can keep bringing it in after something dies or after a Volt-turn or U-turn. When using a Pokemon with Regenerator it becomes more important just to keep it alive and less important to keep it at a high HP percentage while you have it in. That's where absolute bulk matters, and that's where Tangela has the upper hand on Tangrowth. Furthermore, Tangela has bulkier subs than Tangrowth, which can make a big difference.
3:Leech Seed heals Tangela for a greater HP percentage than it does for Tangrowth because Tangela has less HP than Tangrowth.
4: Because of Regenerator, the lack of leftovers doesn't typically result in a higher HP drain. You say,

Speaking of Leftovers, it is especially important on a Subseeder. You wont always be able to get in a successful Leech Seed, and as such, your HP will have been drained by Substitute for no reason.

Here's how it would actually happen though. You switch in Tangela / Tangrowth, take a light hit, Sub, they switch out. Miss a Leech Seed / Stun spore, they break your sub. You switch out. That's the sequence of moves you make for both Tangela and Tangrowth and regardless of which on you're using, both will end up at almost 100% (depending on how hard of a hit they switched in to) HP after the Regenerator heal.


@MaestroXXVI:

Well, If you fail the leech seed, you can always switch out and regenerate to offset the sub

Exactly.


@ harsha2014: I think you're essentially making the same argument as New World Order, so read my response and let me know what you think about the points I made.


@Sir:

This set isn't good for the reasons everyone else said. Slow pokemon don't make good sub seeders in general, anyway.

That's why you have Stun Spore.

And thanks to everyone who commented and gave feedback, I think some valid points were raised.

 

[Caz the DogWatcher]

Also, Tangela has significant surprise value because it is a NFE. When people see a NFE they assume that the Pokemon will not be using moves that deal damage based on one of the attack stats. For example, when people see a Chansey they never expect for it to have an offensive move other than seismic toss. How surprised/mad would you be if your Gliscor got nailed with an Ice Beam from Chansey? (No, I am not advocating Ice Beam Chansey). People will be equally surprised to have a Tangela with a fast HP Fire hit their Scizor or Ferrothorn. I do realize that an unusual set that is good only for its surprise value is the definition of a gimmick, but this surprise value factor isn't the only thing that makes this Tangela set effective. It's just another plus.

 

[New World Order]

While Tangela has more "absolute bulk" the lack of Leftovers recovery means you can't just Sub over and over again to bank on a miss from the opponent. Furthermore, while Tangela heals more HP per Leech Seed, if we included Leftovers recovery, Tangrowth will still heal more per turn. Regenerator is fine and dandy, but in reality, Leftovers adjusted bulk is much much much more important than "absolute bulk". SubSeeders are supposed to stay in for as long as possible, if you're not getting that Leftovers recovery, you wont stay in as long. Period. While Regenerator can offset the damage taken from Substitute, Tangrowth can often just go for a second Leech Seed, because Leftovers recovery provides it with enough HP to go for more Substitutes.

We also have to keep in mind that Tangrowth has superior offensive stats and can run powerful STAB moves such as Power Whip to force the opponent out. Honestly, how many Pokemon are going to be forced out by a Tangela?

So essentially, your argument boils down to: this set can beat Scizor while Tangrowth cannot. Which IMO is not enough to justify a full set. Moreover, your set deals 71.1% - 84% to standard Choice Band Scizor. Which fails to OHKO even after Stealth Rock damage, your Tangela will have to lose its Substitute anyways.

But if you're adamant about this set, definitely primary slash Sleep Powder with Stun Spore, in fact, make Sleep Powder the primary slash. It gives you many more opportunities to get up a Substitute.

 

[Caz the DogWatcher]

Ok I'll be honest. While I do think that Tangela has several advantages that make it viable, I'm really not that adamant about Tangela over Tangrowth because they are both quite capable of running this set effectively. And since Tangrowth > Tangela seems to be the general sentiment, I've decided that I'm fine with dropping the issue and re-submitting this set as a Tangrowth set, especially since everyone's problem seems to be with the Tangela/Tangrowth issue and not the overall effectiveness of the set itself.

Not sure if this is permissible within C&C protocol, so I will wait for the approval of a C&C Staff Member to do so, but I think it would make the most sense to simply to change the title and set details of this thread to that of the Tangrowth set below (I wouldn't even have to change that many lines of text). I'd just add a note at the top saying something to the effect of "In the original OP this used to be a Tangela set, however Tangela was replaced with Tangrowth after a general consensus was reached that the latter Pokemon can run this set more effectively". Otherwise, I'd like to re-submit this Tangrowth set in a new thread. Here's my Tangrowth version of the set:

http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/tangrowth
[SET]
name: Sub-Seed Paralysis
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Stun Spore
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Leftovers
ability: Regenerator
nature: Bold
evs: 156 HP / 216 Def / 136 Spe

Since most of the comments would be the same as for the Tangela set, here are some of the ones that would be new/different:

• The EVs give Tangrowth impressive defensive states of 380 HP / 374 Def. That's bulkier than max def Skarmory.
• Speed EVs allow Tangrowth to outspeed CB Scizor and hit him with HP Fire before he can U-turn out, which does 76.9 ~ 90.9%. Assuming SR is up, even if HP fire doesn't OHKO, Scizor is guaranteed to immediately die when it switches back in.
• To illustrate the effectiveness of the Leech Seed + Substitute + Stun Spore combination: when the opponent is Paralyzed and Leech Seeded, Tangrowth loses an average of zero HP per turn just by spamming substitute, which Tangrowth will always be able to do since the opponent is paralyzed (~0.125 + 0.0625 - 0.75*0.25 = 0.00). I've killed Heatrans this way.

The importance of HP Fire:
Hidden Power Fire vs. 248/0 Scizor 76.9 ~ 90.9%
Hidden Power Fire vs. 252/168 Ferrothorn 47.7 ~ 56.8%
Hidden Power Fire vs. 252/0 Skarmory 43.7 ~ 52%
Hidden Power Fire vs. 252/80 Forretress 82.4 ~ 98.3%

 

[PI-Dimension]

This set is very strong.

I think the key points it has over tangrowth are

1. A base speed that lets it outpseed scizor and still be sufficiently bulky
2. More bulk. For other eviolite evolution debates, we see that leftovers roughly cancels out the eviolite defense boost. However, in regards to Tangela, more bulky substitutes puts it on top of Tangrowth.
3. SubParaSeed too stronk

 

[Harsha]

I think you should post Tangrowth as a separate thread. Sub Stun Spore is a cool idea. Just how much Speed does Tangrowth reach, though?

 

[Caz the DogWatcher]

With the EVs I've listed in their respective sets, both Tangela and Tangrowth reach 169 speed, beating CB Scizor by 1 point.

 

[Harsha]

Some people run 208 SpD EVs on their CB Scizors, though (like me). Will Tangrowth both survive a U-Turn and KO him? Also, I think you should mention in Teammates and Counters that Stealth Rock is really important for this to work. I'm not sure if you can OHKO Specially Defensive Scizor without SR.

 

[Caz the DogWatcher]

Here's how Tangrowth fares against each of the Scizor sets listed on Smogon:
Assume that Tangrowth uses Substitute as Scizor is switched in
VS Choice Band Scizor: Tangrowth outspeeds Scizor and deals 76.9 ~ 90.9% with HP Fire. Tangrowth has a chance to OHKO after SR, but even if Scizor survives and breaks Tangrowth's Substitute with U-turn, Scizor is guaranteed die immediately from SR when it switches back in.
VS Bulky Swords Dance: Tangrowth outspeeds Scizor and deals 67.5 ~ 79.6% with HP Fire.
VS Offensive Swords Dance: Scizor outspeeds Tangrowth, but Scizor will take a whopping 93.9-111.0% from HP Fire if it tries to stay in and do something.
VS Choice Scarf: Scizor will outspeed and break Tangrowth's sub with U-turn, but that's ok Tangrowth has Regenerator to keep it healthy and the opposing team will be racking up entry hazard damage from all the switching. And you will have learned that opponent's Scizor is scarfed, which can be valuable information.

So Tangrowth beats all variants of Scizor outright, except for the rare Choice Scarf, which it really doesn't do that poorly against. Once you know the opponent's Scizor is scarfed, you can just sub as they switch it in, and then sub again on the turn that their Scizor uses U-turn, so that you'll still have a sub up against whichever Pokemon they switch in.

 

[Bruno Magno]

Even if Scizor doesn't 1HKO, Tangrowth is still scared:

U-Turn (248+ CBZor vs 156/216+ Tangrowth): 67.9% - 79.7%

Most Scizor carry 248 HP EV, and many have at least 200 SpD, so maybe HP Fire won't kill. I'm not sure if Tangela can even 2HKO Ferrothorn (252/252+) with HP. I would personally use Tangrowth, as Leftovers + Leech Seed heals a lot, but Tangela is great too, having overall better defences

 

[Pocket]

Tangela (or Tangrowth) has much more important utility than Sub-Seeding (and paralysis) antics - I don't see why I would relegate Tangrowth to this particular role when it can do something more useful. HP Fire as its only move just screams gimmick :/ Unless you can prove me otherwise with logs / replays, this set gets a no from me

QC Rejected

 

[AccidentalGreed]

QC Rejected 2/3

Sorry.

 

[zdrup15]

QC REJECTED 3/3