Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]

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honest question: do you guys think the power and issues of tera are related to the metagame?

if yes, do you think the power is more likely to go down, up, stay the same?

if no, do you think that this means tera will always be balanced or always unbalanced?
1) Entirely the pokemon available. Basically, the offensive pokemon we have are "better" at being offensive mons than the defensive mons are at being defensive, overall, primary due to depth of options - the tenth best offensive mon is a stronger pick than the tenth best defensive mon, in other words.

2) It'll balance out more, as we're getting proportionately more defensive improvement from DLC than offensive improvement.

3) I don't consider the current meta to be unbalanced in general, though I also fondly think of Gen 4 and the lack of team preview, so my tolerance for surprises is much higher than most players.
 
With monsters like Scream Tail, Ting-Lu and Dondozo afloat, to say that we simply are seeing offensive power creep is absurd. Let's look at say, Dondozo. The only flaw Dondozo has is basically movepool, even then it is still a defensive wall beyond what you can reasonably expect. The only issue?

Tera. Tera means that even Pokemon it should easily wall can 2HKO it with a free Adaptability boost on top of their normal STAB. For instance, Baxcalibur. Kingambit gets close to a 2HKO with Tera meaning without HDB it can beat back one of the most monstrous Physical walls of all-time.

Ting-Lu actually is absurd. It has absurd bulk, straight up, either way you invest. It even has a good movepool, but Tera can break it much easier than normal.

Scream Tail is a good Pokemon with really good bulk (a lot of sets can even go high Speed invest, and want to) but simply cannot wall things with Tera boost.

What defensive Pokemon are we getting in the DLC? I can promise you now: Clefable will become another Stored Power/general Calm Mind Tera abuser. And Gliscor will Tera Water Swords Dance and destroy fat teams.
 
I’m confused. I feel like I’ve been talking nonsense all day. What’s the debate about ? Tera being healthy or not, or what should we do about it ? Judging from the people’s replies, I guess it’s moreso about whether or not Tera is a healthy mechanic, so I would like to express my apologies if I did make impertinent statements that did not contribute in any sort of way to the discussion. That was not my intention.

In a sense, most of you do have a point. Even though it might help Pokemons that are held back by their movepool, Terastallization (Tera Blast in fact) is a mechanic that still goes against one of the most fundamental, crucial aspects of competitive Pokemon, the ability to check. How can the game be balanced if the notion of answering a Pokemon doesn’t exist anymore ? Looking at it this way, I’m starting to understand why people see Tera Blast as a unhealthy presence in the metagame. So right now, I’m leaning towards a Tera Blast suspect test.
 
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I honestly think that tera should be fully banned, but When a suspect eventually happens, I wish there would be temporary ladder / suspect ladder of not having tera in it. This is good for the sense that you can actually experience with a 'no tera' metagame and actually see which one is objectively better. Comparison is probably the best way to actually define our opinions.
 
I honestly think that tera should be fully banned, but When a suspect eventually happens, I wish there would be temporary ladder / suspect ladder of not having tera in it. This is good for the sense that you can actually experience with a 'no tera' metagame and actually see which one is objectively better. Comparison is probably the best way to actually define our opinions.
Unfortunately never gonna happen against procedures or something.
 
I honestly think that tera should be fully banned, but When a suspect eventually happens, I wish there would be temporary ladder / suspect ladder of not having tera in it. This is good for the sense that you can actually experience with a 'no tera' metagame and actually see which one is objectively better. Comparison is probably the best way to actually define our opinions.
I thought I saw someone talking about a no tera tournament or something happening, so people do seem to be experimenting and seeing how things will look without it.
 
I thought I saw someone talking about a no tera tournament or something happening, so people do seem to be experimenting and seeing how things will look without it.
It would be cool to have a more official one before the next Tera suspect, the way that old gens did so for things like dropping Latias or banning Dugtrio/Arena Trap IIRC. Separate ladders would be ideal but I understand why staff members are so hesitant to do that (even if current gen OU is always the largest tier by playerbase, so it would be less of an issue than dividing RU or NU players into two ladders)
 
Looking at the teraless tournament going on right now, I have to admit it looks more fun than our current meta.

The tournament meta is still super more offense focused, but its a bit bulkier than our current metagame, and honestly looks more fun to play than what we have now
 
Looking at the teraless tournament going on right now, I have to admit it looks more fun than our current meta.

The tournament meta is still super more offense focused, but its a bit bulkier than our current metagame, and honestly looks more fun to play than what we have now
As someone playing in it, the only real headache for it is bax. Wake is also a problem, but can be prepared for, unlike bax which has no consistent switch ins for all of its sets which is what forces that more offensive style of play.
 
Okay I haven't posted in minute but I have some thoughts and I want to put a disclaimer that the council is not at fault because DLC is coming out in 3 weeks. (We the people vote and we the people need to speak up)

This meta is absolute dogshit. If we rated it out competitiveness in my opinion it might be like a 5/10 (probably me being nice tbh), if we rated for fun I would it's about the same.

Why? You see the same thing on the high ladder, it's a combination of Dondozo for all of the physically (attacking) insane mons we have like (Kingambit or Baxcalibur). You put in a water absorb for all the Rain cheese teams and Walking Wake. Then you have to add everyone's favorite Pokemon (usually) Ting Lu [broken af], for all the spike stacking since Zapdos can't really touch it (who also loves spamming static across the oppositions field). Ting Lus sheer bulk is hard to beat down so it'll get a bunch of layers, oh you want to rapid spin because you don't have an all boots team? oh well don't mind if I do I'll go to my 252 HP / 252 DEF Bold Gholdengo on an Air-Balloon to take your Rapid Spin, EQ, and Knock Off from Great Tusk. The best way to combat all the spike stacking spam? Either you carry an all boots team or you have Cinderace as your best entry hazard (switcher not remover) LOL. It's just all fishing for status, let me make sure that I can setup my family of entry hazard, who gets para haxed more, oh you're running a whole HO team? let me Flame Body all your physical attackers and if that doesn't work let me wisp everybody (Shoutout to Moltres). Oh you don't want to use Ting Lu? that's totally fine if you want to have a more offensive approach just use Samurott-Hisui! Ceaseless Edge all day until you get killed and make sure that it's impossible for the opposition to remove your spikes!

Oh both teams have Booster Energy Valiant as their fastest mons? lets see who wins the speed tie :D

All I'm getting at is when DLC comes out we have a decent amount of work to do as a community to voice our disinterest because, I've said this before and I'll say it again. Last month of pre-HOME was probably the best that this meta felt, I can absolutely truly call it balanced even with Volc running everywhere. We need to get back there.

I've spoken to many of my friends who play the tier, and 90% of them do not have fun with building at all, because it's almost impossible to prepare for everything especially if you take in account with all the other teras people are running. I think there's literally no one on this site that will say that the meta the way it currently is has no room for improvement.
Ngl I feel like if I made this post it would elicit a different reaction. To be fair I have semi-cringe posts on here so maybe that's on me. Anyway, I think the meta is generally worse post home because of tera math. For every viable mon added to a tera meta, there is a formula that puts additional strain on the meta. I'm sure someone could break it down mathematically. We all know Val just isn't Val. Val has a regional form it can turn into on a dime and that regional variant is Steel, or Ghost, or Dark, or Electric. It's like if I could instantly swap out my Alolan-Ninetails into Kanto Ninetails and eat a Scizor Bullet Punch as it attacks. Every viable DLC mon will add 2-5 more mons, and that factor increases exponentially. Not just adding new mons, it's the complexity of it all that is a burden. The strain on builder. The in-game tera mind games. This meta won't get better with time, with new mons, it will get worse.
I know why some ppl like Tera, but I feel like they are objectively wrong. I wish it could stay, I love a good gimmick, but what it's doing and will continue to do is make this meta terrible. All my passion and rage about tera has died down completely, and I'm just slowly watching it perniciously and subtly erode our metagame.

Ngl I disagree. I played a few hundred games this week between OLT ladder and other tournaments, and I found the metagame to be good aside from a few interactions with Tera Fairy Kingambit and SD Bax.

Yea, those can and should go had we had more time perhaps. But relatively speaking, this is by far the least problematic metagame we have had since HOME has dropped. It was better a bit beforehand after Shed Tail got banned, but when the deck is reshuffled, restoring order naturally takes time.

I find Dondozo to be very abusable and honestly healthy as a means of forcing deviation and creativity within the confines of offense. I find Ting Lu stack management to be an interesting feature of the metagame and it makes finding openings and generating momentum to force switches an important skill akin to BW spikes patterns. I don’t think any of that is an imminent issue.
I feel like the meta is a wild game of Jenga atm. Gambit and Bax are not broken, but are broken with tera. In a lot of ways we need Bax and Gambit, and a lot of ways we don't But yes, those are easy to identify interactions that show there are times this meta can be quite silly. The end game is where this meta suffers the most imo. There are also some incredibly easy to pilot wincons that need specific counters and do not have blanket checks. Overall, it's not unplayable, and at times fun because mons is fun, but I think almost everyone has had some games that leave a bad taste in their mouth like no other meta before it. The amount of weight one puts on these games is different per person, and that's why the opinions about this meta are so polarizing. To some it's a meaningless silly game and who cares if that tera fire bax bullshitted a win- to others its an injustice, even if they are the ones winning via these means. It's obviously somewhere in the middle, but I don't think some of these complaints are the usual crying that comes with any meta, it just feels a little deeper than that. Please continue to factor in tera when it comes to what is best for the meta.

Yeah, powerlevel is definitely related to tera and the meta. Think of pokemon like
1) tera dragon glaive rush baxcalibur
2) tera dark blackglasses sucker punch/kowtow cleave kingambit
3) tera fighting choice band close combat zamazenta
4) Tera water proto spa/speed choice specs hydro steam Walking Wake in the sun
All of these pokemon are much stronger than they would be in a metagame without tera, much stronger purely thanks to tera. All of these pokemon put a big strain on teambuilding, and all of these are viable and dangerous threats, who have great niches in the meta due to tera making them nukes.

The power level is likely to go down if tera is banned, although some pokemon like Walking Wake and Baxcalibur will still be problematic imo.

I think Tera could theoretically be balanced in a very limited and tightly managed pool of pokemon. OU will never be that, and thus tera will imo never be balanced in practice.

EDIT: To reply to the quoted response quickly (too short to warrant a separate post)

Nah, it's pretty arbitrary. I couldn't draw a hard line in the sand and tell you exactly why I drew it there.
When 3HKOs turn into 2HKOs, or 2HKOs into OHKOs via same type tera then that changes everything. The baseline power of the meta is pushed into ridiculous levels. Safe switch ins are no longer safe. Counters become soft checks. I said way back the only way tera would be manageable would be a restriction that nerfs it into the ground. I was thinking you can only tera on T1- crazy shit like that. Or like you said, only certain mons. The amount and level of restrictions needed to make this thing a healthy gimmick would upset pro-tera crowd so much that we might as well ban it at that point.
We can only hope that the new tera type will be so broken that it forces a complex ban conversation by pro tera players, wherein we would say, "oh, we could have banned Fairy on Gambit this whole time?" It would be pretty funny to watch some of the mental gymnastics.
P.S don't forget about Pult, that thing loves to same type tera and break teams apart.
 
Ngl I feel like if I made this post it would elicit a different reaction. To be fair I have semi-cringe posts on here so maybe that's on me. Anyway, I think the meta is generally worse post home because of tera math. For every viable mon added to a tera meta, there is a formula that puts additional strain on the meta. I'm sure someone could break it down mathematically. We all know Val just isn't Val. Val has a regional form it can turn into on a dime and that regional variant is Steel, or Ghost, or Dark, or Electric. It's like if I could instantly swap out my Alolan-Ninetails into Kanto Ninetails and eat a Scizor Bullet Punch as it attacks. Every viable DLC mon will add 2-5 more mons, and that factor increases exponentially. Not just adding new mons, it's the complexity of it all that is a burden. The strain on builder. The in-game tera mind games. This meta won't get better with time, with new mons, it will get worse.
I know why some ppl like Tera, but I feel like they are objectively wrong. I wish it could stay, I love a good gimmick, but what it's doing and will continue to do is make this meta terrible. All my passion and rage about tera has died down completely, and I'm just slowly watching it perniciously and subtly erode our metagame.
Completely agree with this. The ability to completely change your type is completely insane and really unprecedented in terms of generational additions (Dynamax was absurd on every level, so there was less debate about it). I said it a while ago but too much variability can be just as bad as being forced to slot certain mons, usually momentum sinks like Blissey and Quagsire or gimmicks like Ditto, on every team. Obviously no team can handle every single threat in the game, but Tera increases that problem tenfold. Gambit is the perfect example of this; while it is admittedly up for debate whether Tera or Supreme Overlord makes Gambit broken, teams that could normally deal with it are blanked by Tera Fire or Tera Fairy. Some have argued that Tera's defensive applications make this less of a problem, but that's just absurd. Even with the ability to Tera themselves, it's an uphill battle for defensive mons to try and deal with ridiculous setup sweepers like ival/bax that have the possibility of teraing.
 
Gambit and Bax are not broken, but are broken with tera.
Small correction but bax is just broken as a whole, removing tera removes the ability to defensively check it with a bulky tera fairy.

I would add something to make this not a one liner but honestly what is there left to say? Some bullshit about a suspect ladder that no matter how important it would be for a test like this won’t happen because of smogon and zarel’s collective reluctance to put resources into one? I think that this thread has run it’s course, and there really isn’t anything reasonable to mention left.

I get that no action is gonna be taken until dlc drops (most likely both dlcs, actually) and I appreciate that. 3 weeks seems like a long time for someone who plays this game daily but that’s also how long action takes unless it’s a quickban.

Like I’ve said previously I think that a teraless or tera restricted metagame needs to be played extensively before trying to gauge which option is better because right now all sides are throwing insults into brick walls, hoping that will make it fall down, but for a few reasons there is no way to do that on a large scale.

Maybe I’ll ask the ou room mods for some teraless roomtours, who knows.
 

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Some bullshit about a suspect ladder that no matter how important it would be for a test like this won’t happen because of smogon and zarel’s collective reluctance to put resources into one?
This has been discussed to death and this has never once been the reason. It’s not a logistical matter so much as it is not ever how tiering has been approached.

Do your due diligence before pointing blame at groups of thankless contributors. Bold of you to single out Zarel of all people when he hasn’t been online for months as if he’s one of the sole deciders in things like this, too. Just a wholly ignorant take.
 
Honestly is funny how Gamefreak manages to introduce a new mechanic each Gen that completely breaks the game and especially the Meta.

Megas that even if made some Pokémon like Lopunny from PU to OU, gave us monsters like MSalamence or MLucario, without counting MRay. Z Moves could be ok since it's only an one time move but can possibly one shot the enemy or even boost the Pokémon as for Z-Celebrate Porygon-Z. Dynamax was also broken especially with Max Airsteam that could snowball an entire team.

And now Tera, and imo is the most controversial mechanic that we ever got, and if before we had mind games in each gen in which we had to scout possible items and moves that the opponent could have, we now also have to see what Tera the opponent has or if it's going to use it on that Pokémon, taking the risk if it's going to counter-attack with an offensive one or setup with a defensive one, and all ignoring the plan you had or if that Tera can possibly screw you up your entire plan if you don't have the tools to remove that threat.

And all of this in a Meta that is very oppressive, especially now that HOME got released, and soon the DLC are also coming with old (new) possible threaths joining the present ones.

Ik that Gamefreak wanted to add a mechanic that could help every Pokémon, especially the ones hold by their typings, but making this just let the absolute chaos invade the Meta.

But at the same time, I'm just one who created a Smogon account the last night and still doesn't know all the forums of Smogon and occassionaly follow the Competitive scene
 
Honestly is funny how Gamefreak manages to introduce a new mechanic each Gen that completely breaks the game and especially the Meta.

Megas that even if made some Pokémon like Lopunny from PU to OU, gave us monsters like MSalamence or MLucario, without counting MRay. Z Moves could be ok since it's only an one time move but can possibly one shot the enemy or even boost the Pokémon as for Z-Celebrate Porygon-Z. Dynamax was also broken especially with Max Airsteam that could snowball an entire team.

And now Tera, and imo is the most controversial mechanic that we ever got, and if before we had mind games in each gen in which we had to scout possible items and moves that the opponent could have, we now also have to see what Tera the opponent has or if it's going to use it on that Pokémon, taking the risk if it's going to counter-attack with an offensive one or setup with a defensive one, and all ignoring the plan you had or if that Tera can possibly screw you up your entire plan if you don't have the tools to remove that threat.

And all of this in a Meta that is very oppressive, especially now that HOME got released, and soon the DLC are also coming with old (new) possible threaths joining the present ones.

Ik that Gamefreak wanted to add a mechanic that could help every Pokémon, especially the ones hold by their typings, but making this just let the absolute chaos invade the Meta.

But at the same time, I'm just one who created a Smogon account the last night and still doesn't know all the forums of Smogon and occassionaly follow the Competitive scene
I honestly see it as how out of touch the developers have gotten. Besides the addition of fairy type, there wasn't really any need for mid battle changes. I think they saw how much people liked megas, and leaned even harder into adding mechanics. The only reason they stopped with megas is because they were low-key centralizing, didn't need one but not running one was definitely questionable.

Another way I see it was to appeal to people who had dropped the games because the formula didn't change. Instead of improving the story, or graphics they took the shortcut and just tossed in mechanics that are somewhat to bare minimum balanced. It's okay to throw things in for fun but it's gotten to the point of being kind of ridiculous. I could go more into it but I'd need to take more time than I'd like.
 
see it as how out of touch the developers
maybe it's because almost all of them except Megas have been popular in VGC

maybe it's because Dynamax especially was made with Doubles in mind

maybe it's because there is a format where not only is mega rayquaza not too overbearing, but it's not even mandatory on viable teams

maybe it's because the game is not balanced around an unofficial format

smogon players shitting on game freak for balance is always weird because their own competitive scene has been thriving and growing faster than smogon, and remained popular during the SWSH years, the worst for smogon growth

the reason I play smogon is because I just prefer 6v6 singles, not because I think Game Freak has no clue how to make a good competitive format, doubles 4v4 is inherently less busted with less restrictions necessary
 
Well if i Tera steel my aggron, it's less broken than mega evolve it. If i Tera fight my loppuny, There is No chance i beat mega loppuny. Still i changes Type. Tera is Not broken, mega was more. Giving coverage to a mon was made, via z moves where gust could become more powerful than air slash. Dont complain, adapt yourself
 
maybe it's because almost all of them except Megas have been popular in VGC

maybe it's because Dynamax especially was made with Doubles in mind

maybe it's because there is a format where not only is mega rayquaza not too overbearing, but it's not even mandatory on viable teams

maybe it's because the game is not balanced around an unofficial format

smogon players shitting on game freak for balance is always weird because their own competitive scene has been thriving and growing faster than smogon, and remained popular during the SWSH years, the worst for smogon growth

the reason I play smogon is because I just prefer 6v6 singles, not because I think Game Freak has no clue how to make a good competitive format, doubles 4v4 is inherently less busted with less restrictions necessary
Yeah I think one thing singles players need to realise is that it isn't the mode the mechanics and tools are generally designed for, they rarely make an effort to balance singles because VGC is the main focus.
 
Yeah I think one thing singles players need to realise is that it isn't the mode the mechanics and tools are generally designed for, they rarely make an effort to balance singles because VGC is the main focus.
If we want them to balance singles we need to actively scream at them to show the developers there is an interest in singles. In a sense we failed as a community to do that, as the developers don't see a point to balancing singles due to lack of interest. Maybe if the playerbase made a fuss about it they would dump resources into singles in the next gen.

Well if i Tera steel my aggron, it's less broken than mega evolve it. If i Tera fight my loppuny, There is No chance i beat mega loppuny. Still i changes Type. Tera is Not broken, mega was more. Giving coverage to a mon was made, via z moves where gust could become more powerful than air slash. Dont complain, adapt yourself
You can't say that because megas were merely pokemon dependent, tera is something everything gets and can turn any match into a prediction based crapshoot due to the wall breaking power and type change it provides
 
If we want them to balance singles we need to actively scream at them to show the developers there is an interest in singles. In a sense we failed as a community to do that, as the developers don't see a point to balancing singles due to lack of interest. Maybe if the playerbase made a fuss about it they would dump resources into singles in the next gen.
For one, Double Battles make for a much faster format than 6v6 singles. BSS/VGC format is much better for tournament organizers, or just generally making sure games are run through.

Second, you can't balance Singles and Doubles at the same time because they are intrinsically different metagames. In VGC, there isn't draft but you have two extra members you don't bring that can scare certain Pokemon away, or round out your team. In 6v6 Singles, you have to just bring all, meaning the game needs to be several times more balanced so that matchups are more even.

Third, 6v6 Singles makes for a much worse Best Of format, for all of the above, multiplied. Viewers have to see the same team (since in official formats you bring the same team the entire time) and the games are much longer, making tournaments slow to a crawl in a real life setting and the teams are the same. There is also no mindgames of "what Pokemon will they bring next", making the Best of format much more repetitive.

Fourth, too many dynamics change between the two. Greninja goes to some huge threat when all it has to do is hit Gunk Shot on the Clefable, but not when next to the Clefable lies a Landorus-T clicking Earthquake. Hyper Offensive Pokemon are generally more in check by playing better when there are two Pokemon on both side, and things like Protect and Fake Out mindgames to keep them even further in check, while not making them necessarily unviable.

Bulky Pokemon also are really harder to keep up when they can be double targeted.

Having two Pokemon on both sides simply increases the amount of counterplay on most turns, in conjunction with moves like Protect and Fake Out, making games not need larger amounts on both team to be more consistent.

Basically, I do not see any world where Game Freak adopts 6v6 Singles, and if anything they probably appreciate that Showdown gives them free marketing for the people who play the in-game, and refuse to adopt the Doubles focused mindset of the official metagame.
 
If GF introduced Megas this gen then we would be able to have multiple on a team and require no item… that’s the level of gimmick creep that’s happened in the last few years. We went from Gems and Weather to Dmax and Tera.
GF has always been a bit out of touch- hence the entire website we’re talking on. Smogon was literally made to fix GF’s game and turn it into a competitive metagame. We need to fix it for them in a major way now, just like we did last gen.
 
For one, Double Battles make for a much faster format than 6v6 singles. BSS/VGC format is much better for tournament organizers, or just generally making sure games are run through.

Second, you can't balance Singles and Doubles at the same time because they are intrinsically different metagames. In VGC, there isn't draft but you have two extra members you don't bring that can scare certain Pokemon away, or round out your team. In 6v6 Singles, you have to just bring all, meaning the game needs to be several times more balanced so that matchups are more even.

Third, 6v6 Singles makes for a much worse Best Of format, for all of the above, multiplied. Viewers have to see the same team (since in official formats you bring the same team the entire time) and the games are much longer, making tournaments slow to a crawl in a real life setting and the teams are the same. There is also no mindgames of "what Pokemon will they bring next", making the Best of format much more repetitive.

Fourth, too many dynamics change between the two. Greninja goes to some huge threat when all it has to do is hit Gunk Shot on the Clefable, but not when next to the Clefable lies a Landorus-T clicking Earthquake. Hyper Offensive Pokemon are generally more in check by playing better when there are two Pokemon on both side, and things like Protect and Fake Out mindgames to keep them even further in check, while not making them necessarily unviable.

Bulky Pokemon also are really harder to keep up when they can be double targeted.

Having two Pokemon on both sides simply increases the amount of counterplay on most turns, in conjunction with moves like Protect and Fake Out, making games not need larger amounts on both team to be more consistent.

Basically, I do not see any world where Game Freak adopts 6v6 Singles, and if anything they probably appreciate that Showdown gives them free marketing for the people who play the in-game, and refuse to adopt the Doubles focused mindset of the official metagame.
Like I get that doubles is definitely easier to push, but they should not ignore singles anymore honestly, not everyone enjoys doubles and while singles matches last a lot longer, I see no harm in pushing 4v4 doubles and 6v6 singles respectively, even if doubles brings all the viewership. I do think game freak needs to be a little more mindful of those who play singles though, and unless there is some noise about interest in an official 6v6 singles format nothing is gonna change. And I get they mainly balance doubles, but they really should push singles as well since its only extra money for them even if it doesn't bring as much viewers in as doubles
 
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