Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]

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I would like to see if players (eventually) get good at predicting tera types based on their opponents' team comp, or if that is even possible to do reliably, before outright banning the mechanic. Pre-team-preview-gen chads we need your expertise
High elo playes are already capable of doing so, I literally did it in a 1700's game and won off reading their tera turn on kingambit. If we are already able to do it so early on in the games lifespan, the mechanic will only get easier to be played around in the future.
 
despite my cynicism to the thread this morning, I'm surprised but happy to see that I think we've come to a completely different conclusion on average than yesterday:

I think most people in the thread, especially including players with lots of experience, have made arguments for why tera is balanced/it's better to wait than suspect/ban, and frankly looking at the policy thread the posts with (in my opinion good) arguments for why it's not broken have... a pretty large wave of support if the reactions are anything to go by

I think it'd be disingenuous at this point to argue the majority of competitive-oriented players are against Terastilization
 
They didn't run tera steel for amoonguss, they ran tera water. Instead they ran taunt for amoonguss spores and pex haze, the tera water boost it used tbh was irrelevant anyways +1 at 160 base attack is ripping through anything and ur bulky enough to take any hit if it doesn't ohko anyways.
The possibility of terra steel was to resist giga drain so after a taut Amoonguss couldn't do anything Palafin which would lead to free set up, of course water was still prevalent but steel was another possibility
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Tiering Contributor
Also this is for the people as well as Srn who want to dramatize the power of the mechanic itself and still say "you can turn into any of the 18 types and you wont know" when it is clearly not the case since pokemon use only the most optimal tera's

When you play your matches do you think "wow this pokemon learns 74 moves? how will I know which moves it has", how is this different from the extreme exaggeration your making? Like I genuinely wonder how those people play pokemon with that line of thinking because if you truly believe that people are not going to run optimal tera types and instead run like tera grass kingambit lmfao, are you also afraid of bulldoze landorus-T? For clarification obviously pokemon like kingambit run only 4 moves, same as pokemon running only 1-2 tera types everytime, I don't mean this in an inflamatory way but how is this a hard concept to grasp? You use the best possible items, moves, types, ev's and now tera's on the pokemon your using, or in very rare or niche cases what is best for your team incase of a bad mu, which you can discern those niche/rare variations anyways off team preview based on what the opponents team HARD loses to. I think its very disingenuous to make willfully ignorant arguments over aspects of the game everyone regardless of skill level already knows is not true, just to add to your basis for a ban argument. I don't mean this in hostility either but it derails legitamate conversations when people say "but any 18 types" when this is clearly not the case, even as early as week 4 in mid-high elo's tera types are now predictable. Gholdengo runs flying, kingambit runs ghost and flying, clodsire runs water, dondozo runs grass, iron valiant runs fairy, I don't think I have to repeat the rest of the relevant pokemon in the OU tier but you get the point.
I don't think I dramatized the power of tera by alluding to 18 types anywhere in my post...in fact if you read my post, I openly state "As the metagame develops, I think we will see certain pokemon settle into certain tera types." Many people on the no-ban side treat this like some revelation that the ban crowd has missed and make it the crux of their argument. But not only is this already acknowledged, it misses the heart of the issue. Perhaps I should have bolded this in my prior post, but let's repeat myself loud and clear because every no-ban post I've read has failed to address this:

THE PROBLEM IS THE TIMING OF WHEN TERA COMES OUT

The fact that every pokemon can use tera to flip the outcome of every important interaction at any time in the battle introduces too many options to consider. Even if you know that kingambit can tera ghost or flying, you still need to GUESS when it comes out when you're trying to revenge kill. That might not be enough to sell the issue, so let me break it down.
Let's assume I have a full health breloom trying to revenge kill a kingambit in the end game, with the following sets:
Breloom @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Close Combat
- Tera Blast

Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance


For the sake of simplicity, Let's assume that the kingambit is at +2 but is at half health, the breloom is at full health, and nobody is switching. So when I'm trying to revenge kill, with tera legal, the following can occur:
1. Breloom uses Mach Punch and Kingambit dies.
2. Breloom uses Mach Punch as Kingambit predicts that and Tera Ghost, then kills Breloom with +2 Iron Head.
3. Breloom uses Bullet Seed as Kingambit predicts Mach Punch and Tera Ghost, but Bullet Seed kills.
4. Breloom uses Bullet Seed as Kingambit remains Dark/Steel, tanks it, and kills Breloom with +2 Iron head.

The same situation with Tera banned is much simpler:
1. Breloom uses Mach Punch and Kingambit dies.

I want to draw out the possible outcomes in just ONE scenario to try and show people how much guesswork is involved PURELY IN THE TIMING. The reason why the first scenario has 4 outcomes instead of 1 is solely due to the TIMING of when tera can come out. And this kind of scenario plays out CONSTANTLY in your average gen9 battle. CONSTANTLY having to second guess basic actions like revenge killing, tanking, sweeping etc fucks with your ability to make a long term plan and reduces the game to a string of guesswork until tera is used, because there are simply too many options for you to consider, by virtue of the timing of when tera comes out, alone. I didn't even factor in the ability of both pokemon to tera in my example. We can go one step further:

Let's work with these two sets at 75% health:
Hatterene @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Charm
- Mystical Fire
- Draining Kiss
- Psyshock

(Charm is heat trust me)

Roaring Moon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Iron Head
- Dragon Claw
- U-turn


If these two are both in vs each other and they're both at 75% health, assuming nobody switches out and ignoring iron head flinch and critical hits, this interaction can play out in the following ways:
1. Hatterene stays Psychic/Fairy and tanks the Iron Head, uses Draining Kiss, and kills Roaring Moon
2. Hatterene stays Psychic/Fairy and uses draining kiss as Roaring Moon Tera's steel and kills with iron head.
3. Hatterene Tera's Fire as Roaring Moon Tera's steel, tanks the iron head/crunch, and kills back with Mystical Fire.
4. Hatterene Tera's Fire as Roaring Moon stays Dragon/Dark, uses mystical fire predicting Tera Steel, and Roaring Moon kills with 2 Crunches.
5. Hatterene stays Psychic/Fairy and tanks a Crunch as Roaring Moon predicts Tera Fire, uses draining kiss and kills.
6. Hatterene Tera's Fire and uses Draining Kiss as Roaring Moon Tera's steel and kills with 2 Crunches.
7. Do you understand my pain

You can say "it takes skill to recognize when the tera is coming out," but you could also play around dynamax with enough skill, by bringing a ditto or corsola-g or sweeping first or whatever. Plenty of people found the dmax meta fun, and they wanted gen8 to have an "identity." But the dmax mechanic was clearly broken and it was rightfully banned. Because the goal is a competitive and diverse meta, not a "fun" or "unique" one. If we have to ban every new gimmick that gamefreak comes up with because it's too broken in singles, then so be it. People will complain every time we have to do it, and let them.

EDIT @below: lol
 
Last edited:
I don't think I dramatized the power of tera by alluding to 18 types anywhere in my post...in fact if you read my post, I openly state "As the metagame develops, I think we will see certain pokemon settle into certain tera types." Many people on the no-ban side treat this like some revelation that the ban crowd has missed and make it the crux of their argument. But not only is this already acknowledged, it misses the heart of the issue. Perhaps I should have bolded this in my prior post, but let's repeat myself loud and clear because every no-ban post I've read has failed to address this:

THE PROBLEM IS THE TIMING OF WHEN TERA COMES OUT

The fact that every pokemon can use tera to flip the outcome of every important interaction at any time in the battle introduces too many options to consider. Even if you know that kingambit can tera ghost or flying, you still need to GUESS when it comes out when you're trying to revenge kill. That might not be enough to sell the issue, so let me break it down.
Let's assume I have a full health breloom trying to revenge kill a kingambit in the end game, with the following sets:
Breloom @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Close Combat
- Tera Blast

Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance


For the sake of simplicity, Let's assume that the kingambit is at +2 but is at half health, the breloom is at full health, and nobody is switching. So when I'm trying to revenge kill, with tera legal, the following can occur:
1. Breloom uses Mach Punch and Kingambit dies.
2. Breloom uses Mach Punch as Kingambit predicts that and Tera Ghost, then kills Breloom with +2 Iron Head.
3. Breloom uses Bullet Seed as Kingambit predicts Mach Punch and Tera Ghost, but Bullet Seed kills.
4. Breloom uses Bullet Seed as Kingambit remains Dark/Steel, tanks it, and kills Breloom with +2 Iron head.

The same situation with Tera banned is much simpler:
1. Breloom uses Mach Punch and Kingambit dies.

I want to draw out the possible outcomes in just ONE scenario to try and show people how much guesswork is involved PURELY IN THE TIMING. The reason why the first scenario has 4 outcomes instead of 1 is solely due to the TIMING of when tera can come out. And this kind of scenario plays out CONSTANTLY in your average gen9 battle. CONSTANTLY having to second guess basic actions like revenge killing, tanking, sweeping etc fucks with your ability to make a long term plan and reduces the game to a string of guesswork until tera is used, because there are simply too many options for you to consider, by virtue of the timing of when tera comes out, alone. I didn't even factor in the ability of both pokemon to tera in my example. We can go one step further:

Let's work with these two sets at full health:
Hatterene @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Charm
- Mystical Fire
- Draining Kiss
- Psyshock

(Charm is heat trust me)

Roaring Moon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Iron Head
- Dragon Claw
- U-turn


If these two are both in vs each other and they've taken rocks, assuming nobody switches out and ignoring iron head flinch, this interaction can play out in the following ways:
1. Hatterene stays Psychic/Fairy and tanks the Iron Head, uses Draining Kiss, and kills Roaring Moon
2. Hatterene stays Psychic/Fairy and uses draining kiss as Roaring Moon Tera's steel and kills with iron head.
3. Hatterene Tera's Fire as Roaring Moon Tera's steel, tanks the iron head, and kills back with 2 Mystical Fires.
4. Hatterene Tera's Fire as Roaring Moon stays Dragon/Dark, uses mystical fire predicting Tera Steel, and Roaring Moon kills with 2 Crunches.
5. Hatterene stays Psychic/Fairy and tanks a Crunch as Roaring Moon predicts Tera Fire, uses draining kiss and kills.
6. Hatterene Tera's Fire and uses Draining Kiss as Roaring Moon Tera's steel and kills with 2 Crunches.
7. Do you understand my pain

You can say "it takes skill to recognize when the tera is coming out," but you could also play around dynamax with enough skill, by bringing a ditto or corsola-g or sweeping first or whatever. Plenty of people found the dmax meta fun, and they wanted gen8 to have an "identity." But the dmax mechanic was clearly broken and it was rightfully banned. Because the goal is a competitive and diverse meta, not a "fun" or "unique" one. If we have to ban every new gimmick that gamefreak comes up with because it's too broken in singles, then so be it. People will complain every time we have to do it, and let them.
Skill issue

EDIT: @above: lol skill issue btw
 
despite my cynicism to the thread this morning, I'm surprised but happy to see that I think we've come to a completely different conclusion on average than yesterday:

I think most people in the thread, especially including players with lots of experience, have made arguments for why tera is balanced/it's better to wait than suspect/ban, and frankly looking at the policy thread the posts with (in my opinion good) arguments for why it's not broken have... a pretty large wave of support if the reactions are anything to go by

I think it'd be disingenuous at this point to argue the majority of competitive-oriented players are against Terastilization
If that is actually true, a suspect test is gonna confirm that. (and with 1 week discussion + 3 weeks of suspect we have another 4 weeks of meta development)
 
First, I wanna say that I think we should keep the tera mecahnic untouched, I really like it, but I can understand the issues it can bring. Personally, I think it adds a nice touch of mindgame, of action and plays. And, sometimes, you tera is just bad or put you in a bad position with the other pokemon of your opponent. To be fair, I really like it as a defensive mechanic. It also helps some pokemons with low performance to be playable. It also allow you to play some unexpected strategies, movesets, etc... Which is a thing I really like and add a layer of fun to the game to me. Sometimes, I just like to play OU (or any tier) but with non-competitive sets.

I also think that if we keep the mechanic, we will see the appearance of a "Tera-meta", we will know which given pokemon use as a Tera type, depending on the team, etc... You will be able to identify strength and weakness of each pokemon with each Tera. And sometimes, if you manage to force an opponent to teracristalize, you'll prevent them to use it at another moment, with another pokemon, etc... For example, I heard the Fairy type is really popular for Miraidon and mostly Koraidon because of their Fairy Weakness. You can still use an unexpected tera type but it's a double edge sword.

If I had to suggest another possibility, I would be okay with a mechanic which doesn't let you keep your former stab and doesn't increase your original stab if you chose that form. I believe it would make it less strong, less unbalanced.

Or, why not, giving pokemon an item that allows teracristallization or only be able to teracristalise with Terablast in your moveset. It would limit the power of the pokemon who really want to use it and you would not play it on absolutely all pokemons.

If I had to chose one of the option suggested by the council, I'd say tera type in team preview is fine even if it will really weaken a clutch factor, an outplay aspect of the game. I like when you surprise your opponent with an unexpected set, movepool, spread, etc...

I have to say I really dislike the idea to limiting teratype to one of the original STAB. I believe it removes the core aspect and fun concept of the mechanic and only make it a cheap overpowered hybrid of a lot of items in the game, while also limiting the fun we can have to teambuild.

Is this option is chosen, I really hope we will see the emergence of another metagame tier-list, like "OU/UU/RU/etc... - Tera allowed" because it's not really possible to play that kind of teams in Anything goes and it would really lower my interest of playing pokemon on this Generation.
 
You can say "it takes skill to recognize when the tera is coming out," but you could also play around dynamax with enough skill, by bringing a ditto or corsola-g or sweeping first or whatever. Plenty of people found the dmax meta fun, and they wanted gen8 to have an "identity." But the dmax mechanic was clearly broken and it was rightfully banned. Because the goal is a competitive and diverse meta, not a "fun" or "unique" one. If we have to ban every new gimmick that gamefreak comes up with because it's too broken in singles, then so be it. People will complain every time we have to do it, and let them.
The Breloom situation sounds like you let a cleaner get in a position to sweep you, and lost because of it. That Breloom could also Terastalize and use Tera Blast to kill as long as Sucker doesn't come out. Unless you used your Tera too early. That play wins you the game unless your opponent reads that play and Sucker Punches you. If he does that, it means you got outplayed. The Tera boosts how many ways things could go, but you still weigh the risk of your move against the rewards.

The difference between Tera and Dynamax is that if you didn't Dynamax at the right time, you still won most of the time. Getting 3 Z moves that boost your stats, set terrain or weather for you, and can't be blocked while you had double HP meant that if you didn't have a Ditto to stop the sweep, you were kinda fucked. Then there were Gmax moves which did shit like Damage Over Time, set up Veil, and heal you off a Z move's power. It was broken in a way Tera can only dream of.
 
In my opinion Tera has killed off stall because of Tera Blast
I mean, im have never been on high ladder, but isnt high ladder filled with either HO or Gholdengo stall? Its the new state of the meta, eventually things are gonna slow down, we are only 10 days in for fucks sake, and stall does have some weapons, sure clef got axed and pex is trash now, but Sylveon is a cool replacement, Bliss, sus-amogus, alomomola, quagsire, Forretress, corv are still in, new mons like Skeleridge, Dondozo, Garganacl, clodsire are new cool additions Gholdengo alone is the best stall weapon in the game, and even if you say "okay but hard stall is dead" then how about make semi stall or put it some spices, both Donphans are still underexplored, Slow twins have seen almost no use, bulky dragonite is nowhere to be seen, the rotom applainces are pretty underated, and theres some mons who even tho dont fit at first, they can still put in some work, stall is gonna be fine man, pinky promise, remember the friends hail stall at the end of gen 8, its all gonna be okay
 

Finchinator

no longer Harry’s house
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I would like to see if players (eventually) get good at predicting tera types based on their opponents' team comp, or if that is even possible to do reliably, before outright banning the mechanic. Pre-team-preview-gen chads we need your expertise
This is already happening. Predicting the type is only a small portion of the battle though. Playing around the timing and the chance for a Pokemon to be one typing or a vastly different one is the bulk of the issue. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of guesswork to it.
 
I do not personally jive with the conclusion of this post, albeit it's so very much an opinion, I'd like to share my own which I (think) I've implied?

Personally, I would be very dismayed if the standard for every new generation on Smogon to just be items, Pokemon and moves. While those are great and all, I personally feel like there is something to say for generations having mechanics that make them much more unique, and that's why when I think about my favorite generations to play; they have an identity *beyond* what Pokemon are good and viable.
FWIW, this is why I'd be nearly as okay with keeping Tera untouched. I think we'd all mostly "git good" at it. But I also think that it's going to push the top n% of `mons in a given tier from meta-defining to over-centralizing. The chaos of unending suspects and not having time for tiers to settle is the bigger issue to me than losing games due to a new kind of bad read.
 
THE PROBLEM IS THE TIMING OF WHEN TERA COMES OUT

The fact that every pokemon can use tera to flip the outcome of every important interaction at any time in the battle introduces too many options to consider. Even if you know that kingambit can tera ghost or flying, you still need to GUESS when it comes out when you're trying to revenge kill. That might not be enough to sell the issue, so let me break it down.
Let's assume I have a full health breloom trying to revenge kill a kingambit in the end game, with the following sets:
Breloom @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Close Combat
- Tera Blast

Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance


For the sake of simplicity, Let's assume that the kingambit is at +2 but is at half health, the breloom is at full health, and nobody is switching. So when I'm trying to revenge kill, with tera legal, the following can occur:
1. Breloom uses Mach Punch and Kingambit dies.
2. Breloom uses Mach Punch as Kingambit predicts that and Tera Ghost, then kills Breloom with +2 Iron Head.
3. Breloom uses Bullet Seed as Kingambit predicts Mach Punch and Tera Ghost, but Bullet Seed kills.
4. Breloom uses Bullet Seed as Kingambit remains Dark/Steel, tanks it, and kills Breloom with +2 Iron head.

The same situation with Tera banned is much simpler:
1. Breloom uses Mach Punch and Kingambit dies.

I want to draw out the possible outcomes in just ONE scenario to try and show people how much guesswork is involved PURELY IN THE TIMING. The reason why the first scenario has 4 outcomes instead of 1 is solely due to the TIMING of when tera can come out. And this kind of scenario plays out CONSTANTLY in your average gen9 battle. CONSTANTLY having to second guess basic actions like revenge killing, tanking, sweeping etc fucks with your ability to make a long term plan and reduces the game to a string of guesswork until tera is used, because there are simply too many options for you to consider, by virtue of the timing of when tera comes out, alone. I didn't even factor in the ability of both pokemon to tera in my example. We can go one step further:

Let's work with these two sets at full health:
Hatterene @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Charm
- Mystical Fire
- Draining Kiss
- Psyshock

(Charm is heat trust me)

Roaring Moon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Iron Head
- Dragon Claw
- U-turn


If these two are both in vs each other and they've taken rocks, assuming nobody switches out and ignoring iron head flinch, this interaction can play out in the following ways:
1. Hatterene stays Psychic/Fairy and tanks the Iron Head, uses Draining Kiss, and kills Roaring Moon
2. Hatterene stays Psychic/Fairy and uses draining kiss as Roaring Moon Tera's steel and kills with iron head.
3. Hatterene Tera's Fire as Roaring Moon Tera's steel, tanks the iron head, and kills back with 2 Mystical Fires.
4. Hatterene Tera's Fire as Roaring Moon stays Dragon/Dark, uses mystical fire predicting Tera Steel, and Roaring Moon kills with 2 Crunches.
5. Hatterene stays Psychic/Fairy and tanks a Crunch as Roaring Moon predicts Tera Fire, uses draining kiss and kills.
6. Hatterene Tera's Fire and uses Draining Kiss as Roaring Moon Tera's steel and kills with 2 Crunches.
7. Do you understand my pain

You can say "it takes skill to recognize when the tera is coming out," but you could also play around dynamax with enough skill, by bringing a ditto or corsola-g or sweeping first or whatever. Plenty of people found the dmax meta fun, and they wanted gen8 to have an "identity." But the dmax mechanic was clearly broken and it was rightfully banned. Because the goal is a competitive and diverse meta, not a "fun" or "unique" one. If we have to ban every new gimmick that gamefreak comes up with because it's too broken in singles, then so be it. People will complain every time we have to do it, and let them.

EDIT @below: lol
Your example doesnt take the remaining team into account. We play 6v6 and not 1v1 and if a person should tera or not also depends on the other mons on your aswell as the opponent side of the field. Maybe your opponent could tera to get past a check, but then loses to a mon on your team that he cant check unless he teras another mon on his team. Thus you assume that he wont tera, or loses the game anyways.
 
My favorites solutions are the restriction and stab + ban terra blast.
If the restriction is chosen, it can give interest to sub tiers pokemons because they can teraststallise (i think a restriction like no tera over NU or RU can be good).
At the other side, stab + ban terra blast still allows everyone to use tera but remove the surprises immunitys or resistances, like chien pao ghost tera on breloom for exemple, and prevent from pokemons who use terastallization + tera blast because they haven't good stab on their attack cathegory, like dragapult who can have a physical shadow ball boosted by tera.
In my opinion banning terastalization completely is the worst solution because it's still interesting and fun (that's not dynamax).
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Tiering Contributor
Your example doesnt take the remaining team into account. We play 6v6 and not 1v1 and if a person should tera or not also depends on the other mons on your aswell as the opponent side of the field. Maybe your opponent could tera to get past a check, but then loses to a mon on your team that he cant check unless he teras another mon on his team. Thus you assume that he wont tera, or loses the game anyways.
I don't take the other 5 mons into account for the sake of simplicity. I could, but the post would be much longer and only prove the same point: too much guesswork involved in playing around tera.
 
I don't think I dramatized the power of tera by alluding to 18 types anywhere in my post...in fact if you read my post, I openly state "As the metagame develops, I think we will see certain pokemon settle into certain tera types." Many people on the no-ban side treat this like some revelation that the ban crowd has missed and make it the crux of their argument. But not only is this already acknowledged, it misses the heart of the issue. Perhaps I should have bolded this in my prior post, but let's repeat myself loud and clear because every no-ban post I've read has failed to address this:

THE PROBLEM IS THE TIMING OF WHEN TERA COMES OUT

The fact that every pokemon can use tera to flip the outcome of every important interaction at any time in the battle introduces too many options to consider. Even if you know that kingambit can tera ghost or flying, you still need to GUESS when it comes out when you're trying to revenge kill. That might not be enough to sell the issue, so let me break it down.
Let's assume I have a full health breloom trying to revenge kill a kingambit in the end game, with the following sets:
Breloom @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Close Combat
- Tera Blast

Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance


For the sake of simplicity, Let's assume that the kingambit is at +2 but is at half health, the breloom is at full health, and nobody is switching. So when I'm trying to revenge kill, with tera legal, the following can occur:
1. Breloom uses Mach Punch and Kingambit dies.
2. Breloom uses Mach Punch as Kingambit predicts that and Tera Ghost, then kills Breloom with +2 Iron Head.
3. Breloom uses Bullet Seed as Kingambit predicts Mach Punch and Tera Ghost, but Bullet Seed kills.
4. Breloom uses Bullet Seed as Kingambit remains Dark/Steel, tanks it, and kills Breloom with +2 Iron head.

The same situation with Tera banned is much simpler:
1. Breloom uses Mach Punch and Kingambit dies.

I want to draw out the possible outcomes in just ONE scenario to try and show people how much guesswork is involved PURELY IN THE TIMING. The reason why the first scenario has 4 outcomes instead of 1 is solely due to the TIMING of when tera can come out. And this kind of scenario plays out CONSTANTLY in your average gen9 battle. CONSTANTLY having to second guess basic actions like revenge killing, tanking, sweeping etc fucks with your ability to make a long term plan and reduces the game to a string of guesswork until tera is used, because there are simply too many options for you to consider, by virtue of the timing of when tera comes out, alone. I didn't even factor in the ability of both pokemon to tera in my example. We can go one step further:

Let's work with these two sets at full health:
Hatterene @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Charm
- Mystical Fire
- Draining Kiss
- Psyshock

(Charm is heat trust me)

Roaring Moon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Iron Head
- Dragon Claw
- U-turn


If these two are both in vs each other and they've taken rocks, assuming nobody switches out and ignoring iron head flinch, this interaction can play out in the following ways:
1. Hatterene stays Psychic/Fairy and tanks the Iron Head, uses Draining Kiss, and kills Roaring Moon
2. Hatterene stays Psychic/Fairy and uses draining kiss as Roaring Moon Tera's steel and kills with iron head.
3. Hatterene Tera's Fire as Roaring Moon Tera's steel, tanks the iron head, and kills back with 2 Mystical Fires.
4. Hatterene Tera's Fire as Roaring Moon stays Dragon/Dark, uses mystical fire predicting Tera Steel, and Roaring Moon kills with 2 Crunches.
5. Hatterene stays Psychic/Fairy and tanks a Crunch as Roaring Moon predicts Tera Fire, uses draining kiss and kills.
6. Hatterene Tera's Fire and uses Draining Kiss as Roaring Moon Tera's steel and kills with 2 Crunches.
7. Do you understand my pain

You can say "it takes skill to recognize when the tera is coming out," but you could also play around dynamax with enough skill, by bringing a ditto or corsola-g or sweeping first or whatever. Plenty of people found the dmax meta fun, and they wanted gen8 to have an "identity." But the dmax mechanic was clearly broken and it was rightfully banned. Because the goal is a competitive and diverse meta, not a "fun" or "unique" one. If we have to ban every new gimmick that gamefreak comes up with because it's too broken in singles, then so be it. People will complain every time we have to do it, and let them.

EDIT @below: lol
Pretty sure roaring moon wins this situation everytime with tera steel crunch twice/thrice so long as its eboosted or LO depending on mystical fire roll (then again u can argue crunch defense drop too) since you'll survive mystical fire anyways on bulky hatt ev's since bulky hatt runs dkiss cm...sooooo I am not sure why you used this example when it doesnt work?

252 Atk Energy Boost Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Hatterene: 140-165 (44 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Hatterene Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Roaring Moon: 140-166 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You tera steel, crunch, they mystic, u crunch even if u dont get the roll u live the 2nd mystic, and then u crunch and win...not much of a pain when there's a clear optimal route of play my guy.


The vacuum approach of making a 1v1 last pokemon where both still have tera (you really aren't gonna be seeing no tera use so late to this extent at that) and health is still at full...is not representative imo of what actually happens in a match. Many tera situations there's still mons left, some situations your opponent already tera'd already, or you already used your tera and they havn't, or depending on the moves you revealed or your opponent revealed ect ect. The mechanic works on too vast of a scale to make meaningful representative examples aside from in battle which largely can still be deduced to positioning prior to the tera situation as well as other things. You could use that same example you give and then say ok but what if there is a 2nd Pokémon left on both sides that act as a middle ground to if they tera or don't use tera, because middle grounds are often possible. These last mon haven't used tera situations are not common enough or seen often enough to be representative of why the mechanic could be seen as problematic.
 
My favorites solutions are the restriction and stab + ban terra blast.
If the restriction is chosen, it can give interest to sub tiers pokemons because they can teraststallise (i think a restriction like no tera over NU or RU can be good).
At the other side, stab + ban terra blast still allows everyone to use tera but remove the surprises immunitys or resistances, like chien pao ghost tera on breloom for exemple, and prevent from pokemons who use terastallization + tera blast because they haven't good stab on their attack cathegory, like dragapult who can have a physical shadow ball boosted by tera.
In my opinion banning terastalization completely is the worst solution because it's still interesting and fun (that's not dynamax).
Limiting it to STAB only is the worst solution, next to banning Terablast. Banning Terablast does absolutely nothing. There's like 2 mons that use it. Limiting it to STAB only guts the defensive counterplay to stop the megaSTAB Tera gives. Worst solution.
 
I also wanted to add one piece of massive tech that I've found that shows it is viable as a defensive option - terra ground on corviknight. Basically, this makes it so you can avoid being trapped by magnezone and immediately uturn out to a fire type like chi-yu or even iron valiant which is massive. This is a situation where having your corviknight trapped would lose you the game but you have an out you can use by sacrificing your terra.
 
I also wanted to add one piece of massive tech that I've found that shows it is viable as a defensive option - terra ground on corviknight. Basically, this makes it so you can avoid being trapped by magnezone and immediately uturn out to a fire type like chi-yu or even iron valiant which is massive. This is a situation where having your corviknight trapped would lose you the game but you have an out you can use by sacrificing your terra.
You can already U-turn out of that as a Steel type, unless they changed how it works since last gen.
 
You can already U-turn out of that as a Steel type, unless they changed how it works since last gen.
Magnezone is faster, so it will hit you with thunderbolt or volt switch and kill you. Terra ground is the only reliable way to survive that situation.
 
First post back here since Gen 9. After playing a lot of Gen 8 OU and taking a break near the end, I’ve been playing a bunch of Gen 9 since release and would like to share my thoughts on Tera. Originally wasn’t going to make a post but after lurking for a while there’s a few things I’d like to add.
Let me start by saying that I don’t think Tera is broken/uncompetitive. I think we can all agree at this point that Dynamax was a significantly more game-breaking mechanic to the point that there’s no comparison. Tera isn’t an instant power-up button, it’s something that actually requires skill to use. Knowing what Tera type to use in the builder, which mon to Tera in a game, when to Tera that mon, these are things that encourage thinking and careful play. I can’t find the post, but I believe someone earlier made a comparison to held items which I fully agree with. Yes, Tera fundamentally changes a mon and how it plays, but so does an item like Band or AV for example. And similarly to Tera, there’s no way to tell what item a mon is running at preview except by using your knowledge of the meta and the opponent’s team comp. Tera is essentially an extension of the fundamental game that turns simple scenarios into ones that require more thought.

However, it’s worth pointing out that Tera does not create constant 50/50s, as some have claimed. Once both sides have used Tera, less scenarios have to be considered, and at most there will be 2 or 3 pivotal turns during which a matchup is flipped or you play mind games with your opponent over Tera. However, even these are not binary 50/50s. Say my opponent U-turns with Corv into Band Meowscarada against my Garganacl. My opponent suspects I’m Tera Flying, since that’s a common Garganacl Tera type. My opponent can predict this and U-turn, or they can Flower Trick. I have to decide whether to Tera or not. Seems like a 50/50, right? But it’s not, because there are so many other considerations. Are there hazards up? This disincentivises switching out for my opponent-but if he has rocks up, then that makes Tera a less attractive option for me. What’s the long term situation? Do I have another check to Meowscarada? Do I need my Tera for something else? My opponent could also make a mid-ground play-why not click Knock Off?
What I’m trying to illustrate is that no interaction can be viewed in a vacuum. None of these are 50/50s, it’s about making the best play you can based off the information you have. Tera merely adds to this-yes, there’s guesswork, but this has always been a part of the game.

I’d also like to address a couple of other anti-Tera arguments I’ve seen: no Tera does not make offensive mons unwallable, since it gives defensive mons just as many options as offensive ones. The criticism that Tera makes long-term planning harder is one I can sympathise with, but it’s something that will improve as people get more familiar with common Tera types. It’s also the reason I wouldn’t be completely opposed to showing Tera types at preview, although no restriction is still my preferred option.
 
I believe if you teraground after u are trapped you negate the elec move and u wont be trapped ever again which is a significant upgrade
Basically this. If you're in a situation where you're forced to attack vs magnezone, tera ground is your only way out of that situation. Magnezone is always faster and can oneshot.
 
Run speed on Corv like a madman
I actually originally included in my post that most magnezones are scarfed, but I took that out since I figured it would be obvious. Either way, in all practical situations magnezone traps and kills corviknight unless it runs shed shell as an item.
 
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