Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]

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absolutely, anyone who argues against complex bans because
When people make this argument generally though they are usually talking about the slippery slopes.

For example basically unban all of Ubers and make them usable in OU as long as they are limited to level 50 or something. Simple enough right? But what if people wanted to use their ubers at level 100? Then you might have to start limiting items they can use. You might even start restricting moves they can use , might start restricting Evs and IVs to keep things balanced. And you have to do this for every single pokemon. And this is where it can start to lose accessibility among newer players. You could end up with a situation where you can use move X on your level 100 giritania, but only with Evs and IVs Y, and Z. Etc and so on, for every single mon. And this can be hard to keep track of for a completely novice player coming to Smogon. And eventually the tiering principles we have used to date fall apart as well. Versus using complex bans very sparingly ( and preferably not at all ) and having a simple banlist is simply and easy to follow for everyone and most importantly isn't as arbitrary as customizing every pokemon to fit in a given competitive tier, allows pokemon to be played at their full power and respects the fact that some pokemon are simply better than others and they should be allowed to play with their peers and not be forcibly nerfed to be balanced for play in a tier it doesn't belong.
 
I feel like the best solution for maintaining Terra and also keeping the meta fun is mainly just to force STAB Terra. By forcing you to change into one of your existing types, it means that would be checks/counters are at less risk to come in/throw off a super effective hit.

This also comes with the benefit of artificially limiting the number of viable Terra users per team because defensive terra typing your wall into one of its STAB types is much less of an issue for potential wall breakers, or other mons looking for a KO.

This also stops mons like Roaring Moon from changing out of its bad typing for a better typing to sweep teams.

Another benefit to this would be it keeps terra blast legal which helps mons that get stuck with no good STAB options and would appreciate a base 80 STAB move.
 
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I feel like the best solution for maintaining Terra and also keeping the meta fun is mainly just to force STAB Terra. By forcing you to change into one of your existing types, it means that would be checks/counters are at less risk to come in/throw off a super effective hit.

This also comes with the benefit of artificially limiting the number of viable Terra users per team because defensive terra typing your wall into one of its STAB types is much less of an issue for potential wall breakers, or other mons looking for a KO.

This also stops mons like Roaring Moon from changing out of its bad typing for a better typing to sweep teams.

Another benefit to this would be it keeps terra blast legal which helps mons that get stuck with no good STAB options and would appreciate a base 80 STAB move.
This guts the mechanic entirely and is a terrible option. You might as well ban it at that rate, it'd be a small boost to damage and sometimes have defensive utility but be barely noticeable and a far cry from it's real self. It'd be like if Greninja could only use Dark and Water moves or Meowskarada can only use Dark and Grass moves. The mechanic would have no flavor to it

Lokix and slither can abuse bug tera, first impression hits like a truck.

Tera Bug 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 390-458 (123 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tera Bug 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tera Bug Protosynthesis 252+ Atk Choice Band Slither Wing First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 273-322 (86.1 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Tera Bug Protosynthesis 252+ Atk Choice Band Slither Wing First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 321-380 (76.4 - 90.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Tera Bug Protosynthesis 252+ Atk Choice Band Slither Wing First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 305-360 (98 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Yeah I know it beefs up those Mons, but I mean a non-Bug becoming a Bug type. Lokix is an unwieldy BEAST and Slither Wing is so cute and fluffy
 
I personally believe tera type should either be banned or not touched at all, people trying to make terastal balanced are missing the spirit of terastal which is the freedom to do whatever the hell you want do with it, and the reason it's so good is the ability to be used by any Pokemon, thus I believe that it should be banned from OU, regarding banning specific tera Pokemon is dumb and should never ever be taken seriously.
 

Finchinator

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OU Leader
Given how conflicted sentiments have been throughout this thread and internal discussions, we want to gauge community opinion on a larger scale.

We will be having the first tiering survey of SV OU this weekend or early next week as a result of that! It will be focused on Terastallization, but may also be a bit open ended to help gauge opinion on a wider array of topics.

Everyone with a Smogon account can (and should!!!!) respond if they are invested in our metagame. I will personally read through everything I can on this. There will also be a “qualified” demographic that will constitute those in the third round of the release tournament and those in the top portion of the ladder, so be mindful of this if you are on the brink of either of these.
 
When people make this argument generally though they are usually talking about the slippery slopes.

For example basically unban all of Ubers and make them usable in OU as long as they are limited to level 50 or something. Simple enough right? But what if people wanted to use their ubers at level 100? Then you might have to start limiting items they can use. You might even start restricting moves they can use , might start restricting Evs and IVs to keep things balanced. And you have to do this for every single pokemon. And this is where it can start to lose accessibility among newer players. You could end up with a situation where you can use move X on your level 100 giritania, but only with Evs and IVs Y, and Z. Etc and so on, for every single mon. And this can be hard to keep track of for a completely novice player coming to Smogon. And eventually the tiering principles we have used to date fall apart as well. Versus using complex bans very sparingly ( and preferably not at all ) and having a simple banlist is simply and easy to follow for everyone and most importantly isn't as arbitrary as customizing every pokemon to fit in a given competitive tier, allows pokemon to be played at their full power and respects the fact that some pokemon are simply better than others and they should be allowed to play with their peers and not be forcibly nerfed to be balanced for play in a tier it doesn't belong.
The Slippery slope is a fallacy in debate. It’s not a real thing, it’s used to make somebody’s argument look worse with little to no evidence. Every single argument I’ve seen use it here on Smogon breaks down into “well if we can ban a single move/part of a Pokémon what’s stopping us from allowing Ubers in OU by limiting their EVs, IVs, Level, Moveset and what Pokémon you can team them up with?”

We have a council for a reason, they’re in charge of preventing those scenarios and they generally do a good job. To me anyone who uses the slippery slope argument is just showing that they don’t trust the council to make good decisions. It’s honestly a bad argument that’s being used because you either A) Don’t understand how to debate that well or
B) Trying to fear monger by removing the middle ground, which is the main purpose of the Slippery Slope fallacy
 
Maybe we need to suspect test many options:
* Revealing Tera Types at preview (so when someone sends a Pokémon that abuses Tera, you might know how to counter it)
* Some Pokémon shouldn't be able to Tera (because they are too broken and would be more so with a free Adaptability or a type that resists their weaknesses).
 
When people make this argument generally though they are usually talking about the slippery slopes.

For example basically unban all of Ubers and make them usable in OU as long as they are limited to level 50 or something. Simple enough right? But what if people wanted to use their ubers at level 100? Then you might have to start limiting items they can use. You might even start restricting moves they can use , might start restricting Evs and IVs to keep things balanced. And you have to do this for every single pokemon. And this is where it can start to lose accessibility among newer players. You could end up with a situation where you can use move X on your level 100 giritania, but only with Evs and IVs Y, and Z. Etc and so on, for every single mon. And this can be hard to keep track of for a completely novice player coming to Smogon. And eventually the tiering principles we have used to date fall apart as well. Versus using complex bans very sparingly ( and preferably not at all ) and having a simple banlist is simply and easy to follow for everyone and most importantly isn't as arbitrary as customizing every pokemon to fit in a given competitive tier, allows pokemon to be played at their full power and respects the fact that some pokemon are simply better than others and they should be allowed to play with their peers and not be forcibly nerfed to be balanced for play in a tier it doesn't belong.
This is the exact point I make when I say people strawman complex bans. Bro what about Reshiram with just Ember is that what you want next I bet you want Protean Gren but it can't learn Gunk Shot right? Bullshit. Thank you for proving my point

Can we get less posts like this in this thread please? It’s cringy as fuck.
I will be less based when the quality of the anti Tera posts improves and doesn't include "I don't like winning with it" and "BRO EVERY TURN EEEEVERY TURN IS A 50/50 BRO WOOOAH" and "No look you'll want the entire tiering to change forever because I said so, we can't entertain any nerfs to Tera OR ELSE EVERYTHING FALLS APART"

I am for keeping Tera completely untouched. I was for nerfing it to some degree because I knew people would only sneed hard about muh predictions and muh 50/50s til the sun sets and I figured at least a nerf to ease it a little bit would satisfy people but here we are with bullshit like Xen posted about oh no the new players might have to read a sentence or two so let me put up a strawman about nerfing Ubers Mons. Complete bullshit and certified cringe just like you complaining

Tera type your posts into better arguments
 

BlackKnight_Gawain

PUPL Champion
Given how conflicted sentiments have been throughout this thread and internal discussions, we want to gauge community opinion on a larger scale.

We will be having the first tiering survey of SV OU this weekend or early next week as a result of that! It will be focused on Terastallization, but may also be a bit open ended to help gauge opinion on a wider array of topics.

Everyone with a Smogon account can (and should!!!!) respond if they are invested in our metagame. I will personally read through everything I can on this. There will also be a “qualified” demographic that will constitute those in the third round of the release tournament and those in the top portion of the ladder, so be mindful of this if you are on the brink of either of these.

This is amazing news, thank you Finch and co! I really do hope this survey does see the larger community and hopefully doesn't die beyond forums, I genuinely do think this needs a good number of opinions from widest possible range from casual to those of us knee deep.


That being said and it's totally fine if you don't have an answer: how long are we planning on running this survey for? Is the previous timeline still the one we're adhering to?
 
By complex bans, do you mean Pokémon X can't Tera or Pokémon X can't Tera into types A and B? Because the former is reasonable, while the latter is too hard to implement.
 
I bet you want Protean Gren but it can't learn Gunk Shot right?
You keep mentioning ProtGren but like, mon is solidly OU with Gunk Shot lol. idk what this obsession is about.

Also can you take your posts down like, 3 notches? Seeing a personal attack every 2 lines is a pain when I’m just trying to read new opinions on Tera.

edit: just finished reading the entirety of the post i quoted. is there room for mod action here?
 
You keep mentioning ProtGren but like, mon is solidly OU with Gunk Shot lol. idk what this obsession is about.

Also can you take your posts down like, 3 notches? Seeing a personal attack every 2 lines is a pain when I’m just trying to read new opinions on Tera.

edit: just read the entirety of the post i quoted. is there room for mod action here?
One idea of complex bans is Gren in OU (or whatever it'd drop to) without Protean and the other side of it is saying people want to have things like Gren without Gunk Shot (a move tutor move from ORAS that let him dumpster Clefable and Torn-T) or other moves taken away which then goes all the way to saying Ubers without big moves and what-not. Non-Protean Gren has been mentioned in the past as well as Blaziken with no Speed Boost to allow them into OU but people who are against those complex bans (which consist of a few sentences explaining why) will take it to the next level of Ubers in order to make a relatively tame ban look terrible

GraylyHen94 I am glad you are passionate on the subject matter, but there are other humans who are also passionate on the subject matter on the other side of your posts. Be respectful
Alright. I'm sick of the weak arguments about complex bans and spirals that anti complex leads into and I really think the idea of limiting your team to one Mon is bad (and it's an idea I've agreed with before but no longer believe in) while I think Tera Preview is the best middle ground but I don't like that being on the table either. Tera Blast being banned shouldn't have been suggested either cuz the move isn't influential in the slightest beyond Mons needing a basic coverage move like Regieleki
 
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ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
IMO this is where "current gen should appeal to as many people as possible" vs. "each gen should have its own identity so that at least one will appeal to anyone" comes in. Gen 9 is way more offensive than prior gens, not just from Tera but from the recovery nerf + no Ferro and Lando + hazards being ridiculous + whatever I forgot. If the goal is to hit an ideal state of meta balance that everyone likes this probably means Tera needs to be heavily restricted or banned because Gen 9 becomes too offensive otherwise (relative to what's always been considered the standard ideal state). On the other hand, the ultra-offensive meta with tons of hyper offence and super high-leverage, complex predictions can be pretty cool and fun. In other competitions (e.g. pro sports), unpredictability and high-leverage key moments are often considered positives because they're super exciting. It's not necessarily a bad thing to have a gen defined by big offence, fast games, and high-leverage predicts, and if you want a bulkier meta, you can always play a different gen.
See I don't get this post because honestly Bulky Offense/Balance has a huge leg up on Hyper Offense in a Terastilization meta, as a lot Balance/Bulky Offense Pokemon can take a stab super effective hit and live to fight another day, while Hyper Offensive Pokemon just get boned.

No, I didn't adjust Leaf Blade's BP for this calc:

252 Atk Life Orb Roaring Moon Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 265-312 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

A Dondozo at 40% HP is not really out, if it gets a turn against another physical Attacker it can Rest and be not worse off than if the Roaring Moon was a standard set.

I will say that scouting is absolutely more feasible for Balance, Bulky offense and perhaps Stall (not sure) than Hyper Offense.

Of course, this is not true for every Pokemon, but I think it's an exaggeration when people say that you get a free kill guaranteed from a good Tera or something.

You can argue "it keeps STABS which makes it harder to check", but Balance/Bulky Offense can then usually Terastilize defensively.

In the end, it is down to player intelligence, honestly.
 
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All the 50/50 and prediction arguments are weak. The real reason Tera should be at the very least restricted is that it just makes things too strong. Whether this be defensive or offensive, the Tera abusers are way too powerful. So, the obvious thing to do is ban the abusers, right? I disagree. This is purely because if we ban the abusers, then new abusers will simply appear because Tera is so strong. If we ban Roaring Moon, who’s to say people won’t simply switch to Dragonite for their Dragon Dance sweeper? If we ban Chi-Yu, why not use Dragapult as your new lategame cleaner? I feel like this causes too many bans for the sake of preserving the root of the issue, being Tera itself. Therefore, I think Tera should be the thing that’s banned.
One note for both sides, please don’t bother with attacking the other side directly. That can just fester toxicity far too easily, and I think a thread like this can only work if everyone stays civil and respectful of the opposing side.
 
See I don't get this post because honestly Bulky Offense/Balance has a huge leg up on Hyper Offense in a Terastilization meta, as a lot Balance/Bulky Offense Pokemon can take a stab super effective hit and live to fight another day, while Hyper Offensive Pokemon just get boned.

No, I didn't adjust Leaf Blade's BP for this calc:

252 Atk Life Orb Roaring Moon Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 265-312 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

A Dondozo at 40% HP is not really out, if it gets a turn against another physical Attacker it can Rest and be not worse off than if the Roaring Moon was a standard set.
because its litterally a physical chansey without reliable recovery, no shit it takes jack shit but what does it even do back? I mean it can curse? it can rest? but what then
 

ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
because its litterally a physical chansey without reliable recovery, no shit it takes jack shit but what does it even do back? I mean it can curse? it can rest? but what then
You have six Pokemon and Grass is one of the types with the most weaknesses. The biggest threat of Terastilization is not knowing when it will happen, or exactly what it will be. But most if not all well-crafted teams can pretty reliably deal with said Terastilized Pokemon once it's known. Dondozo doesn't need to 1v1 the Roaring Moon, it just needs to scout.

And if it's the Tera Flying set, Dondozo 1v1s it very easily. Tera Grass with a move Roaring Moon doesn't even learn is a worst case scenario that Roaring Moon can still handle.

Pokemon like Sylveon can still take a hit well from Steel Tera Iron Valiant, for instance.

Yes, fat Pokemon are fat. A lot of teams run Pokemon that take hits. That's not a "so what?", that's good teambuilding for most teams.

Also: Rest is good recovery for Dondozo, honestly. It enables its Curse set well, handles some status, and it can usually take several hits at full.
 
You have six Pokemon and Grass is one of the types with the most weaknesses. The biggest threat of Terastilization is not knowing when it will happen, or exactly what it will be. But most if not all well-crafted teams can pretty reliably deal with said Terastilized Pokemon once it's known. Dondozo doesn't need to 1v1 the Roaring Moon, it just needs to scout.

And if it's the Tera Flying set, Dondozo 1v1s it very easily. Tera Grass with a move Roaring Moon doesn't even learn is a worst case scenario that Roaring Moon can still handle.

Pokemon like Sylveon can still take a hit well from Steel Tera Iron Valiant, for instance.

Yes, fat Pokemon are fat. A lot of teams run Pokemon that take hits. That's not a "so what?", that's good teambuilding for most teams.

Also: Rest is good recovery for Dondozo, honestly. It enables its Curse set well, handles some status, and it can usually take several hits at full.
ok... but ur leaning into a mon that is pretty much stall exclusive... to deal with roaring moon... yeah not sounding good esp since every other mon that is capable to 1v1 roaring moon loses if it tera's into one of the 3 common tera's. And many mons just drop if u guess the tera wrong.

This meta is riddled with hazards that are basically impossible to remove... gl doing that if thye have t spikes... or if they have a spike + rocks and that sylveon all of a sudden is at 50% forced to burn a wish and is expolitable for a turn esp since it needs to protect and you just lost the pokemon if it tera fairy or it just clicked tera steel and SD'ed and most teams arent gonna be running unaware users esp the offense or the balance teams that either rely on clodsire to do that or just to out offense it.

Rest is pretty expolitable... sure its good but rest is still a very expolitable move and puts u asleep for 2 turns... and being forced out in a very hazard meta isnt the best thing for dodonzo.
 

ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
ok... but ur leaning into a mon that is pretty much stall exclusive... to deal with roaring moon... yeah not sounding good esp since every other mon that is capable to 1v1 roaring moon loses if it tera's into one of the 3 common tera's. And many mons just drop if u guess the tera wrong.

This meta is riddled with hazards that are basically impossible to remove... gl doing that if thye have t spikes... or if they have a spike + rocks and that sylveon all of a sudden is at 50% forced to burn a wish and is expolitable for a turn esp since it needs to protect and you just lost the pokemon if it tera fairy or it just clicked tera steel and SD'ed and most teams arent gonna be running unaware users esp the offense or the balance teams that either rely on clodsire to do that or just to out offense it.

Rest is pretty expolitable... sure its good but rest is still a very expolitable move and puts u asleep for 2 turns... and being forced out in a very hazard meta isnt the best thing for dodonzo.
Dondozo isn't a stall Pokemon, it can run on Balance and Bulky Offense. This is a Pokemon that can beat Roaring Moon, and other Pokemon can revenge it. You scout the Tera with a Pokemon that can take it, and then you have an easier time.

Sylveon can run boots. It doesn't need leftovers.

Rest is not that exploitable honestly, at full health there are few physical attackers that don't need 3 hits minimum, so you can Curse + Rest cycle. If the enemy tries to switch out to beat it with a Special Attacker, you can get an attack on that usually.

And Dondozo can also run boots.

Throw boots on shit, y'all.

Also, if your team loses to that SD, your team probably isn't very good. Well-crafted teams have options.

I'ma go play Splatoon have a good day y'all.
 
So...you won because you built your team well. You recognized a specific threat (Kingambit sweeps late game) that you were vulnerable to, you took steps in the team builder to address this weakness (Tera-Fighting Garganacl), that threat arose, and your counter worked. It's this generation's version of a surprise Hidden Power. It is the platonic ideal of skillful team building.

You won off skill - how is this a bad thing?
He won because his opponent made the wrong guess as to his pokemon’s Tera type. You shouldn’t have to guess what a pokemon‘s type is.

I think we can all agree that Tera has depth and can create interesting Strategic decisions. However, the uncertainty and chaos that it introduces overshadows it, at least in my opinion.
 
Dondozo isn't a stall Pokemon, it can run on Balance and Bulky Offense. This is a Pokemon that can beat Roaring Moon, and other Pokemon can revenge it. You scout the Tera with a Pokemon that can take it, and then you have an easier time.

Sylveon can run boots. It doesn't need leftovers.

Rest is not that exploitable honestly, at full health there are few physical attackers that don't need 3 hits minimum, so you can Curse + Rest cycle. If the enemy tries to switch out to beat it with a Special Attacker, you can get an attack on that usually.

And Dondozo can also run boots.

Throw boots on shit, y'all.

Also, if your team loses to that SD, your team probably isn't very good. Well-crafted teams have options.

I'ma go play Splatoon have a good day y'all.
You can run boots but ur running a mon that is so vulnurable to being taken advantage of. Basically no mon can revenge a roaring moon that hasnt revealed a tera... not true at all... 119 speed esp at +1 is pretty much not something obtainable. No one will just burst a tera like that for no reason esp if they have a clear awnser in the back.

A pretty big sacrifice to its longetivity otherwise just to awnser a mon to scout a tera. that doesnt even work if they tera fairy and spirit break and then SD on your protect since 1) you cannot touch it you do jack shit to it esp at -1 and good god even worse at -2 2) you are taking to much and are risking sylveon for what?

Throwing boots on random shit shows how big the hazard problem is, we have no good reliable hazard removal to be able to remove the hazards. Dodonzo without boots or lefties is forced to burn rest so much more and that is so so expolitable, crunch drops can happen while ur asleep and ur not gonna get an attack every time, waterfall is not even that strong.

And well crafted teams have options to deal with your counters, esp if you give them a free swords dance pretty much considering how much mons iron valiant forces out that is not unreasonable and tera allows it to beat would be counters
 
He won because his opponent made the wrong guess as to his pokemon’s Tera type. You shouldn’t have to guess what a pokemon‘s type is.

I think we can all agree that Tera has depth and can create interesting Strategic decisions. However, the uncertainty and chaos that it introduces overshadows it, at least in my opinion.
He won because his opponent made the wrong guess as to his pokemon’s Hidden Power type. You shouldn’t have to guess what a pokemon‘s Hidden Power type is.

He won because his opponent made the wrong guess as to his pokemon’s coverage move. You shouldn’t have to guess what a pokemon‘s coverage move is.

He won because his opponent made the wrong guess as to his pokemon’s Z crystal type. You shouldn’t have to guess what a pokemon‘s Z Crystal is.

He won because his opponent made the wrong guess as to his pokemon’s Choice item. You shouldn’t have to guess what a pokemon‘s Choice item is.

He won because his opponent made the wrong guess as to his pokemon’s resist berry type. You shouldn’t have to guess what a pokemon‘s resist berry type is.

===

Other than being new, why is Terastalization being treated differently than literally everything else you need to predict?
 
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