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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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this point has already been addressed eloquently by another poster, so i will link you that since you must've missed it.
this is probably a boomer take but we should just either ban the mechanic as a whole or do nothing at all. showing the terastilized type at team preview is NOT how the mechanic works and is not loyal to in-game stuff, at that point were just better off by baning the mechanic. and before ppeople cry out "well play on cartridge if u want", this is literally a pokemon simulator that tries its hardest to simulate in-game online battling; and yes, we might have shit like sleep cause as a precedent, but stuff like that doesnt really compare to literally modifying already predefined mechanics for the sake of the metagame. this is just like saying that dynamaxing should only last 1 turn in gen 8. it just feels like were making our own game/rules idk.
I really don't agree that terrastal is uncompetitive because it requires prediction/reads, just because so many other situations in pokemon also require predictions/reads. I don't see why terrastal is different from clicking the move SE on the pokemon in front of you versus clicking the move SE on the pokemon you think coming in. This is just an innate part of the game, and doesn't make things uncompetitive there. I don't see the difference between that and a terrastalization that only happens once a game.
Ultimately I think a separate ladder for terrastal/no terrastal is the only solution that will make people happy. There are clearly people who really like it and people who clearly really don't. I don't see why tiers like natdex can exist and a split terra/no terra tier can't.
Ultimately I think a separate ladder for terrastal/no terrastal is the only solution that will make people happy. There are clearly people who really like it and people who clearly really don't. I don't see why tiers like natdex can exist and a split terra/no terra tier can't.
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The difference here is that revealing Tera Types isn't actually changing how the game is played at all, it's just revealing information to your opponent that they wouldn't otherwise get. This is something any two players can replicate easily in game. This is different and less egregious than something like Sleep Clause, which mechanically changes the game in a way that cannot be replicated in-game.
I think a better restriction would be that a Mon can't terrastalize with set up, terrastalizing acts as a unique form of set up on its own and pairing it with a move like dragon dance means you set up 2 times in one turn. it's not like mega evolution where you might change type but still retain 2 or 1 stabs and know what is coming, you gain 3 stabs or a singular adaptability boost on whatever offensive Mon is best for sweeping a team. It lets pokemon with good offensive typing to maximize on coverage letting them sweep easier after one set up move. Dark/dragon is a good offensive type add in terra flying acrobatics + earthquake and you have perfect coverage with nothing to stop you after a d dance or two. a defensive Mon that normally could switch in can't because now it's facing boosted stab neutral moves instead of resisted moves or if it has the bulk for neutral moves then it'll still face them boosted. If terrastilzing was without setup options it would be more manageable as you can switch in neutral walls, it's why quagsire, dodonzo are one of the few mons that can wall roaring moon because they have unaware, enough bulk and are neutral to its moves.
I think you hit the nail on the head for the most part - but tera’s panic-button ability to adapt is, to me, what makes the meta so volatile and frustrating at times.
Limiting to one tera user in the builder still allows for creative, interesting team comps and strategies, while removing the ability to hit a panic button and win a game you shouldn’t.
simply listing the types at preview just creates more headache, more confusing options to keep track of, and hitting the oh-shit-better-flip-my-weaknesses-button on any mon regardless of how the game’s played out thus far can still frustratingly reverse games.
i'm not like. particularly a tourney player and while i have been playing a fair bit of ladder i would not consider myself you know. amazing at competitive so sorry if this is a bad take TM hope its at least interesting to consider
I think that it’s important to understand the core things we want to change about the Terastalization mechanic, and make sure that a solution actually addresses those issues. I feel that some of these medium-ground solutions limit the power of Tera, but don’t actually address the problematic aspects. (And thus, I would like to support a different restriction on the mechanic that I’ve seen brought up.)
To me, it seems like the broken part of Terastalization is when a heavy-hitter uses it to dodge a kill by changing their type to resist an oncoming attack, and use that turn to either set-up, winning the game, or picking up key damage/kills in order to win the game. The key example I can think of is (pre-ban) Palafin becoming a steel-type in order to dodge Iron Bundle’s Freeze Dry, Drain Punching for the kill, and then proceeding to tear through the rest of the opponent’s team, or an Espathra dodging SE Sucker Punch with Tera Fairy to Calm Mind or Stored Power and going for an easy win.
Looking at the proposed restrictions,
- Showing Tera type at Team Preview: I don’t think this actually solves anything. Even though you now know that Palafin can turn into a Steel or Espathra can turn into a Fairy, they don’t actually have to. If you overpredict, you could end up firing a move that isn’t SE because they read your play and didn’t Tera their pokemon, putting you into the same situation.
- Limiting # of Tera Mons: Again, I think the problem is primarily with a certain subset of Pokemon abusing Terastilization, so this doesn’t really do much, as you could just pick one abuser to go ham with.
- Banning usage of the move Tera Blast: I don’t think Tera Blast is the problem at all.
- Limiting Pokemon to only using a Tera Type that matches their current STAB: I think this is the closest solution that could work while not outright banning the mechanic. However, I think it does hurt that it still lets you drop a key weakness on dual-type mons, which could have the same effect.
I don’t really feel that these solutions actually solve the issue. However, one thing that might help is a solution I’ve heard people throwing around as another option, where Pokemon with no item are allowed to Terastilize. I think this works as an actual solution to the problem, because these aggressive Pokemon who are trying to sweep are using items like Band, Specs, Scarf, Life Orb, or Booster Energy to try and buff their offenses, or things like Leftovers as tools for longevity. Limiting their use of these items is going to be a meaningful obstacle to their efficiency as game-winning threats, which actually addresses the problem at hand.
In terms of the specific implementation, it seems a little wacky to make “not having an item” related to Terastilizing, and it seems like it would unduly benefit strategies like Acrobatics and consumable items. Maybe it would make more sense and be more balanced to make it so that a Pokemon can only Terastilize if they’re holding the respective “Tera Shard” item of their Tera type. There might be an issue with Knock Off with this, but I think that might be worth it.
Ultimately I think it is necessary examine what the actual problems with Tera are in order to come up with the best response rather than just saying "Tera bad nerf it", and that I also appreciate looking for a response that doesn't outright ban the mechanic.
1. The turn you actually use your Terastalization holds almost all of the power of using it, when you're using it offensively. That's the big "surprise" turn for their check. It doesn't have anywhere near the lasting impact of Mega evolution, it also doesn't have the immediate impact of Z-moves. Offensively Terastalizing is the weakest of the gimmicks. Especially since the defensive use of it can be used to offset the offensive uses.
2. The defensive usage of Terastalizing balances the offensive usage. Let's take a situation as an example: Amoonguss vs Barraskewda. Barraskewda could Tera into a Psychic type to nuke Amoonguss, but Amoonguss could run a Steel Tera type to turn all its existing weaknesses, except Fire, into resists, while also losing some resists. In this situation, Barraskewda using Tera Psychic into Amoonguss, who doesn't Tera gives the biggest advantage to the Skewda player. If Skewda does that, and Amoon also Teras, Amoon has basically wasted Skewda's Tera. What this means is that the Skewda Player's best move is to Flip Turn into something that pressures Amoonguss. If Tera could only be used offensively, I'd honestly say it's banworthy, but the defensive aspect complements the offensive aspect, especially if we show what Tera type a mon is.
3. You could run multiple Z users on a team, which is something I did pretty often. Having 2 different Z users afforded a lot of versatility and let me break walls more effectively. Z moves had a higher cost, but also a disproportionately high impact. Especially since they did damage through Protect, which is something your defensive mons can use to scout their Tera usage.
4. Their impact was much higher on the offensive side than Tera. Most defensive mons would be taking enough damage from one SE Z move that they'd faint the following turn. Even if you used protect, your tank would still take anywhere from 15-30%.
5. Terastalization for offense does rely on that pretty heavily, unless you're using a mon with super high offenses, because a base 80 power move generally doesn't cut it to break walls. Terablast is almost never a good move to slot, because of how bad it is if you don't Tera.
Terastalization is definitely more impactful than Z moves, when you consider their defensive usage. If we only look at their offensive usage, Z moves are WAY worse for the game. Terastalizing offers just as much usage for your defensive cores as your sweepers, which has the potential to make an amazingly deep metagame. Which is why my opinion is that we should just show the type, and MAYBE pair that with making you select 2 mons on your team that can Terastalize
As much as I understand the sense of urgency when it comes to wanting to take action on tera, after reading through the thread and playing little under 200 games it does feel somewhat premature. The ladder has only been available for 8 days, and it already generally feels pretty predictable what's going to tera and when; and is something I can account for in the builder because it has so much utility as a defensive mechanic as well. Which is why I think I come down on supporting not taking action on it at the moment. It's such a unique gimmick, the opportunity costs for using it defensively feels so much less crippling than using dynamax or z-moves reactively/defensively.
In an expanded dex I could see it getting out of hand, but in this tier at this moment haven't felt swayed past let the meta develop and the playerbase adjust.
Separate ladder is nonviable solution imo, and not a fan of team preview mods (hey i wonder what set the tera normal dnite is). If a decision has to be made on the mechanic this early, would prefer to keep it as was intended on cartridge or just nix it entirely.
In an expanded dex I could see it getting out of hand, but in this tier at this moment haven't felt swayed past let the meta develop and the playerbase adjust.
Separate ladder is nonviable solution imo, and not a fan of team preview mods (hey i wonder what set the tera normal dnite is). If a decision has to be made on the mechanic this early, would prefer to keep it as was intended on cartridge or just nix it entirely.
In my opinion, there is a logistical issues with this idea's implementation even if it could be a sufficient solution the the Terastal problem:
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Not allowing Pokemon that have setup moves in their current moveset to Terastalize
This would make it so that if a player chooses to incorporate a move like Dragon Dance, Calm Mind, Nasty Plot, etc. in a Pokemon's moveset, then that Pokemon could not Terastalize in battle. My issue here is that there is not a clear line that separates a "setup" move from a "non-setup" move. For example, one could argue that a move like Aqua Step or Flame Charge is a setup move, but what about Rapid Spin? It's essentially the same move as the other two, but it's almost solely used by defensive Pokemon. Not allowing these defensive Pokemon to Terastalize kinda thus feels weird to limit if we are looking to preserve defensive Terastal, and saying "Rapid Spin" is not a setup move while Flame Charge or Aqua Step are seems like an ultimately arbitrary endeavor. If setup is the issue with Terastal, not limiting moves like Flame Charge could thus be seen as "not doing enough," so this proposal falls apart at the nuances in my mind.
...this is besides the fact that, ultimately, this does not address how a lot of people see Terastalizing offensively or defensively on any Pokemon as unhealthy, so the problem seems to not be tied to solely setup sweepers. Setup is arguably just one of the pillars of the problem.
As stated in a similar Policy Review thread, there are three solutions for addressing Terastralization ordered in severity:
- Showing Terastral typing of every Pokemon at the start of the match
- Allowing only one Pokemon to be Terastral and/or its Terastral typing to be shown
- Banning Terastral altogether
- It provides a more familiar point-of-entry for new competitive Pokemon players who join Smogon because of Scarlet/Violet's release. These new players use Showdown to basically mess around with whichever Pokemon they want while being fairly close to cart implementation as possible. If you enforce something like Options (2) or (3) early on in Gen 9, you risk alienating a bunch of newer players.
- A more gradual process of addressing Terastral provides greater transparency between leadership and players. It charts the progression and rationale behind why certain actions are taken, and having this clarity (hypothetically) decreases the overall negative sentiment that newer players have towards Smogon's ban list procedures.
- Unlike Baton Pass, which has been around for several generations before it was banned, Terastral is a novel mechanic where no meaningful conclusion can be fully drawn until at least thousands of games, both ladder and tours, have been played such that trends can be noticed. Thus, a "play it by ear" approach to testing Terastral is a safer measure.
- The metagame is expected to fully solidify once the Home integration becomes legal. The four months between now and when Home comes out could be used to evaluate Terastral in a more gradual manner. Hopefully, a sufficient solution (from the three above) will be set as the status quo by that time.
I find this comparison to be shallow. With Megas, you’re talking about one, maybe two Pokemon that have Megas that are comparable to Terastalizing, making it far, far easier to read. Plus it came with the cost of using up an item slot. With Terastalizing we’re talking about literally all 6 of your opponent’s Pokemon and 18 types each. They are barely comparable at all. Of course the metagame could adapt to it when its not much more than an Altaria dodging at most an EQ or Sludge Bomb.
Also Megas don't adapt to the meta. A mega Mon stays the same until next gen/DLC drops, which might change it's movepool at most. However Tera is extremely adaptive and will remain unpredictable even as meta shifts, as new typings keep becoming viable to counterplay.
This is a drastic change because that is not how the mechanic works on cart. This turns the mechanic into something that it is not that is strictly against smogon's policies.
Even if a mega was low tier, except Audino, the drastic change in power and playstyle turned games, even if you knew it was coming. Using Tyranitar as an example, Sand teams would run Mega Ttar just in case the weather was changed so they could reactivate sand stream without switching. Charizard could technically coin flip if it was X or Y and change how moves were picked. Thinking all 6 pokemon on a team are a threat from terastilizing is lunacy. Support mons nearly never terastilize and would/could only in last ditch attempts at a losing game from my expiernce. Just because a Pokemon wants can become one of 18 types doesn't mean all those 18 types are actually good for it. You can quickly figure out just by playing a few games what tera types work for a mon and what don't or are weaker options. Mega's completely defined a meta game so i don't know how you can say they aren't comparable. There were next too no teams in that era that were good if they didn't run a mega. In fact, there are often times/games players don't need to terastilize because there tera type poses a bad match up.
I think having one Pokémon Terastral would be like mega evos. That would be cool.
Just ban it, the other options do not do jack for cartridge outside of discord room tournaments.
Banning Tera Blast
Tera blast is not the core issue, infact I've seen a lot of mons just simply not run it at all because they have moves with additional effects they can use instead. Iron Moth doesn't need terablast when it knows energy ball/psychic/discharge, Chien-pao doesn't need tera when it has near perfect coverage in sacred sword, and its stabs, Espathra which has been popping up more just goes tera fairy with dazzling gleam to ignore some of its priority checks and muscle dark types that otherwise shut it down.
Tera blast if anything is the weaker part of the mechanic, if you tera fire just so you can tera blast steels as magnezone, you're already hindering yourself in other regards wasting it. There's very few instances its worth running unless the pokemon in question is otherwise a shitmon movepool wise and needs the coverage (think HP ice users like jolteon.). It could just be uncommon because ice and ground tera isn't as necessary without lando/heatran in the game but its a far cry from the problem and won't change much but nerf the shitmons that needed it to thrive.
If anything making it so only users that know tera blast can use the mechanic would be a bigger nerf than removing terablast entirely, but at that point we're grasping for straws.
Showing tera types
This won't work on cartridge, it might work perfectly on showdown, but its impossible to replicate on cartridge. You'd have to be playing over discord/social media to communicate and share tera types which isn't always the case. A good example of this is BDSP Wifi battle queues where there was a specific link battle code everyone would input to play semi-competitive matches under the smogon ruleset, as a means of filtering the random timmy. If tera clause with showing types becomes a thing, this just can't work because you don't know who the fuck you're facing and how to contact them with your team.
There's also random link battle queues which sure, can be highly iffy on what the other person is playing, but even in SWSH unless they were a differently language, or an in-game team, most of my random queue battles were mutually respecting sleep and dynamax clauses so we never used them and mentally you can consider the game a win if the opponent breaks any of them... and usually they suck if they do so its w/e then.
As for showdown, which is smogon's main concern, this doesn't fix how restraining the mechanic is in teambuilder, because even if you give your kit coverage moves to deal with threat X, you can't factor in bringing a coverage move for any of its 18 potential mono types, one moment you could hit something super effectively due to their typing (fairy for pult), and then it changes and lives with neutral damage (pult becomes pure ghost) and kills you with a bonus 1.5x boost. Its a broken mechanic you can't build around, you can only play around it with the knowledge given, which currently is none.
It reminds me of X/Y aegislash, teambuilder was the issue, you had to run a team they can muscle through or survive aegislash, it warped the meta, when you got in-game, it wasn't nearly as bad as some made it out to be, but the fact it existed when you crafted teams made it hard to have a developing meta. I believe showing tera types would lead to this because teambuilder you'd be warping your team around trying to cover every possibility and still end up failing in team preview and have to play out the match differently.
Making it 1 user only
This could work but again doesn't fix the problem because then we'd just be looking at the strongest potential users.. and go down the ban list until none are left, megas had the restriction of item slot and comps were built around them. Tera is more of a boost to any offensive mon with their current strengths and so many fit the bill of wallbreaker, the game would just become matchup fishy, which isn't healthy either. Going from unpredictable to matchup fishy isn't a healthy solution. It would highly restrict tera in the unpredictability regard but typically you know who they're going to tera based on game state/who their offensive threat is. If someone sees volcarona on my team, i'm planning to fucking win with it and they know that too and will play around it as if i'm throwing all my eggs in one basket, the trick is predicting what my volc would be.. tera grass to ignore their counters, tera fire to unga boonga past their team, or tera electric because i'm brain damaged and forgot to switch it again and suddenly now resist their flying move.
Banning tera
This is the best and least controversial solution, only casuals would get pissed about it but they're playing a different game anyways so who cares. The meta can develop and we can see what stands out better without factoring in X changing type to overcome X. I will say using the term 'counter' has been a fucking joke for years and everything just checks one another, but its too dangerous to check anything rn especially vs. snowbally HO comps where 1 hole in your team can be the entire game and if your defensive mon you've been preserving for an offensive threat gets cheesed by the boosted STABs now 2HKOing it or destroyed by a now STAB coverage move you're just too fucked.
Banning Tera Blast
Tera blast is not the core issue, infact I've seen a lot of mons just simply not run it at all because they have moves with additional effects they can use instead. Iron Moth doesn't need terablast when it knows energy ball/psychic/discharge, Chien-pao doesn't need tera when it has near perfect coverage in sacred sword, and its stabs, Espathra which has been popping up more just goes tera fairy with dazzling gleam to ignore some of its priority checks and muscle dark types that otherwise shut it down.
Tera blast if anything is the weaker part of the mechanic, if you tera fire just so you can tera blast steels as magnezone, you're already hindering yourself in other regards wasting it. There's very few instances its worth running unless the pokemon in question is otherwise a shitmon movepool wise and needs the coverage (think HP ice users like jolteon.). It could just be uncommon because ice and ground tera isn't as necessary without lando/heatran in the game but its a far cry from the problem and won't change much but nerf the shitmons that needed it to thrive.
If anything making it so only users that know tera blast can use the mechanic would be a bigger nerf than removing terablast entirely, but at that point we're grasping for straws.
Showing tera types
This won't work on cartridge, it might work perfectly on showdown, but its impossible to replicate on cartridge. You'd have to be playing over discord/social media to communicate and share tera types which isn't always the case. A good example of this is BDSP Wifi battle queues where there was a specific link battle code everyone would input to play semi-competitive matches under the smogon ruleset, as a means of filtering the random timmy. If tera clause with showing types becomes a thing, this just can't work because you don't know who the fuck you're facing and how to contact them with your team.
There's also random link battle queues which sure, can be highly iffy on what the other person is playing, but even in SWSH unless they were a differently language, or an in-game team, most of my random queue battles were mutually respecting sleep and dynamax clauses so we never used them and mentally you can consider the game a win if the opponent breaks any of them... and usually they suck if they do so its w/e then.
As for showdown, which is smogon's main concern, this doesn't fix how restraining the mechanic is in teambuilder, because even if you give your kit coverage moves to deal with threat X, you can't factor in bringing a coverage move for any of its 18 potential mono types, one moment you could hit something super effectively due to their typing (fairy for pult), and then it changes and lives with neutral damage (pult becomes pure ghost) and kills you with a bonus 1.5x boost. Its a broken mechanic you can't build around, you can only play around it with the knowledge given, which currently is none.
It reminds me of X/Y aegislash, teambuilder was the issue, you had to run a team they can muscle through or survive aegislash, it warped the meta, when you got in-game, it wasn't nearly as bad as some made it out to be, but the fact it existed when you crafted teams made it hard to have a developing meta. I believe showing tera types would lead to this because teambuilder you'd be warping your team around trying to cover every possibility and still end up failing in team preview and have to play out the match differently.
Making it 1 user only
This could work but again doesn't fix the problem because then we'd just be looking at the strongest potential users.. and go down the ban list until none are left, megas had the restriction of item slot and comps were built around them. Tera is more of a boost to any offensive mon with their current strengths and so many fit the bill of wallbreaker, the game would just become matchup fishy, which isn't healthy either. Going from unpredictable to matchup fishy isn't a healthy solution. It would highly restrict tera in the unpredictability regard but typically you know who they're going to tera based on game state/who their offensive threat is. If someone sees volcarona on my team, i'm planning to fucking win with it and they know that too and will play around it as if i'm throwing all my eggs in one basket, the trick is predicting what my volc would be.. tera grass to ignore their counters, tera fire to unga boonga past their team, or tera electric because i'm brain damaged and forgot to switch it again and suddenly now resist their flying move.
Banning tera
This is the best and least controversial solution, only casuals would get pissed about it but they're playing a different game anyways so who cares. The meta can develop and we can see what stands out better without factoring in X changing type to overcome X. I will say using the term 'counter' has been a fucking joke for years and everything just checks one another, but its too dangerous to check anything rn especially vs. snowbally HO comps where 1 hole in your team can be the entire game and if your defensive mon you've been preserving for an offensive threat gets cheesed by the boosted STABs now 2HKOing it or destroyed by a now STAB coverage move you're just too fucked.
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I didn’t know those details about how on-cart WiFi battles worked but that seems pretty out of the purview of what Smogon is supposed to be. We can’t be making rules around formats that are not intended to be played following Smogon rulesets. Smogon rules are intended for people who explicitly following Smogon rules… anything beyond that is at the mercy of the whims of Game Freak. I dont think anyone expects to enter a random on-cart Wifi battle and have Smogon rulesets be followed.
Before I start, I wanted to thank everyone for making very thought out responses, I've felt my opinions on the mechanic eb and flow even through reading this thread. It's a complicated topic, and one that I'm glad we're discussing well.
To introduce myself a little to give some context, I'm usually a mid/high level player, and I started back in late gen 4 (granted I was very young then) and my primary experience lies with gen 5 and 6, both in OU and in lower tiers. But I think I have some insight to give here.
I first want to address all of the suggested changes, sans ban.
Showing Tera Type at Preview
At first this sounds like a happy medium. It's implementable in game with a gentleman's agreement (much like others have stated is similar to clauses like moody, and ohko), but I think in practice we will find that it will cause the metagame to shift to favor this arbitrary ruling which we have given.
My point with this one is a bit underdeveloped, but to summarize, I think this change will have a lasting unintended consequence on competitive play. It is highly possible that Pokemon's sets will be revealed through this, and suddenly we're having to play mindgames by making our Pokemon have suboptimal Tera types for the set which we are running purely to offset the predictability which our opponent has gained through typical sets. Granted, this is likely rarely going to be the case since you will lose your mon's consistency, but it's the threat of it happening which is the issue.
As an example: Roaring Moon. If you see Flying in team preview, you know it's Acrobatics. If you see Steel, it's Iron Head. But what if your opponent just made it Flying but didn't have Acro? Suddenly you're in a mindgame from teambuilding that is leading to feigning an optimal Pokemon to gain an advantage which was never intended. This could cause feel bads in a situation like bringing in your Fairy type to a Roaring Moon who baited you with Flying Tera to then hit you with an Iron Head. This mindgame would only occur IF this non in-game mechanic is implemented.
So I have my team of 6, and each one shows their Tera. But I only intend to actually Tera one of them. The rest of them I can just throw my opponent entirely off course by running a bait Tera type. And as a last course of action I can still pull the trigger on their Tera if I feel the situation has gone sour enough.
Limiting Amount of Tera
This one feels... shitty. I'm not sure how to put my thoughts on this other than that, but I don't think it necessarily solves the problem, if Tera is seen as problematic. You still have to play a 50/50 mindgame on swapping types on your Tera mon in pivotal situations.
I also think this, yet again, has unforeseen consequences with teambuilding. You want to use Dragonite on your team? Cool, let's say the optimal set is EKiller Dnite. What if you also want to run Roaring Moon? Well... you're now SOL because the two best Roaring Moon sets are also Tera. I think this will lead to an over prevalence of the best Tera mons in the tier, making this mechanic almost feel like Megas all over again. There is no room for expression with the mechanic because you will be actively neutering yourself if you do not use the most optimal mons to Tera. Additionally, if you have to show which mon you are planning to Tera, then it gives up a moveset on your team, which is now clear as day for your opponent. This feels awful.
If you don't have to reveal who the Tera mon is at preview, then I absolutely hate this solution. It doesn't solve the 50/50 issue. Yes you can breathe after you see the Tera, but that's the same for how the mechanic is currently. What if they decided they were going to Tera their Annihilape? But what if they also have a Roaring Moon on the team? How are you supposed to know which one is going to Tera until it's too late? If the mechanic is broken and bannable, then this solution does not solve the core of the issue, which seems to be the guessing game.
STAB Tera (and nonstab Tera)
For STAB Tera, this favors offensive Pokemon far more than defensive ones. Let's look at Palafin (yes it's banned but it's a perfect example), you would often run Tera Water to make your Jet Punch a blazing 120 base power priority move. STAB Tera does not solve that, it only makes it so the meta will likely revolve around the mons which enjoy adaptability on their stabs.
Non STAB Tera just doesn't solve the issue of unpredictability.
Banning Tera Blast
I think Banning Tera Blast is one that would have to be done in tandem with another solution. Tera Blast at this point is hardly even used, and most mons abusing the Tera mechanic are using available coverage anyways.
Also, Tera Blast has an opportunity cost of having to run a generally bad move. If you end up not Tera-ing the mon with Tera Blast, then you're left with a 80 base power Normal Move. That's a HUGE opportunity cost for most mons wanting to Tera.
So what do I think?
First and foremost, I genuinely think we need to wait on making action on Tera. We are with this metagame, as others have stated, for the next few years, so let's not make rash decisions. I, and many others, think Tera is a cool mechanic and would love to see it stay. I think we should strive to keep it unclaused and unbanned for as long as we can, barring breakage of the format. This may take time to get used to new play patterns. I genuinely think that Tera is going to take some relearning and mindset shifts on how to play singles Pokemon. That is okay. It is okay to have different generations play differently.
I can potentially foresee a few conclusions happening over the coming weeks/months.
One such potential is a shift of our way of thinking of the game as "this mon is generally powerful" rather than "this mon is meant to check this situation". Generalists become the way to play due to their nature to be able to answer whatever is thrown at them. This will make for a unique metagame compared to other generations.
I could also see Tera feeling like the unpredicatability of pre team preview days. Where you have to preserve your Pokemon due to unknown elements. This makes for exciting play patterns where you have to always be aware of something that could potentially exist, and could change how you evaluate the game state, and make turn by turn decisions.
Much like team preview, once the mechanic is revealed in game, you now know how to play the following turns. Much like when your opponent's entire team is revealed in pre team preview days. I think this is unique, and will make Gen 9 a different play experience from past generations. I think that is a good thing.
Basically, I think we need to be patient with Tera. This metagame is a far cry from how bad Dynamax meta was, or Genesect meta was, or Swift Swim Rain was... and so on and so forth. Let's give it some time. Tera, by design, is a mechanic which is going to take time to get used to.
Well, what if we find that it's broken, what do you think Kyle?
I think if we find that Tera is an uncompetitive mechanic, in whatever way, we ban in it its entirety, and set up two separate ladders. Tera OU, and non Tera OU. Any solution to nerf Tera feels like it is likely missing the point, and frankly, is going to warp the metagame in ways which aren't intended. That feels horrific. Let's not go back to Gen 5 by dancing around the point of broken mechanics (Aldaran's Prop) and blowing up the metagame surrounding them, let's just cut it off where it stands if we think it's too good.
Much like complex bans on Pokemon, I don't think we should do complex bans on mechanics. Make things simple. We either have it, or we don't.
Fwiw from my experience playing on the ladder, Tera has felt strong but not gamebreaking.
I am also of the opinion of if there are obvious abusers of the mechanic which are pushing it over the edge, we should ban them. Pokemon are the sum of their parts. If Dragonite is too good with Tera, get rid of Dnite. That's fine. As an example, one of the core reasons that manaphy was banned in gen 5 was for having hydration in perma rain. Sometimes Pokemon get banned due to mechanics of a generation.
Sorry if my thoughts are discombobulated, but I hope they came across reasonably well. Thanks again for the great discussion, I know we all want to make a metagame that we enjoy playing, and continue to want to play after the generation is over (cough, gen 8, cough). Toods
To introduce myself a little to give some context, I'm usually a mid/high level player, and I started back in late gen 4 (granted I was very young then) and my primary experience lies with gen 5 and 6, both in OU and in lower tiers. But I think I have some insight to give here.
I first want to address all of the suggested changes, sans ban.
Showing Tera Type at Preview
At first this sounds like a happy medium. It's implementable in game with a gentleman's agreement (much like others have stated is similar to clauses like moody, and ohko), but I think in practice we will find that it will cause the metagame to shift to favor this arbitrary ruling which we have given.
My point with this one is a bit underdeveloped, but to summarize, I think this change will have a lasting unintended consequence on competitive play. It is highly possible that Pokemon's sets will be revealed through this, and suddenly we're having to play mindgames by making our Pokemon have suboptimal Tera types for the set which we are running purely to offset the predictability which our opponent has gained through typical sets. Granted, this is likely rarely going to be the case since you will lose your mon's consistency, but it's the threat of it happening which is the issue.
As an example: Roaring Moon. If you see Flying in team preview, you know it's Acrobatics. If you see Steel, it's Iron Head. But what if your opponent just made it Flying but didn't have Acro? Suddenly you're in a mindgame from teambuilding that is leading to feigning an optimal Pokemon to gain an advantage which was never intended. This could cause feel bads in a situation like bringing in your Fairy type to a Roaring Moon who baited you with Flying Tera to then hit you with an Iron Head. This mindgame would only occur IF this non in-game mechanic is implemented.
So I have my team of 6, and each one shows their Tera. But I only intend to actually Tera one of them. The rest of them I can just throw my opponent entirely off course by running a bait Tera type. And as a last course of action I can still pull the trigger on their Tera if I feel the situation has gone sour enough.
Limiting Amount of Tera
This one feels... shitty. I'm not sure how to put my thoughts on this other than that, but I don't think it necessarily solves the problem, if Tera is seen as problematic. You still have to play a 50/50 mindgame on swapping types on your Tera mon in pivotal situations.
I also think this, yet again, has unforeseen consequences with teambuilding. You want to use Dragonite on your team? Cool, let's say the optimal set is EKiller Dnite. What if you also want to run Roaring Moon? Well... you're now SOL because the two best Roaring Moon sets are also Tera. I think this will lead to an over prevalence of the best Tera mons in the tier, making this mechanic almost feel like Megas all over again. There is no room for expression with the mechanic because you will be actively neutering yourself if you do not use the most optimal mons to Tera. Additionally, if you have to show which mon you are planning to Tera, then it gives up a moveset on your team, which is now clear as day for your opponent. This feels awful.
If you don't have to reveal who the Tera mon is at preview, then I absolutely hate this solution. It doesn't solve the 50/50 issue. Yes you can breathe after you see the Tera, but that's the same for how the mechanic is currently. What if they decided they were going to Tera their Annihilape? But what if they also have a Roaring Moon on the team? How are you supposed to know which one is going to Tera until it's too late? If the mechanic is broken and bannable, then this solution does not solve the core of the issue, which seems to be the guessing game.
STAB Tera (and nonstab Tera)
For STAB Tera, this favors offensive Pokemon far more than defensive ones. Let's look at Palafin (yes it's banned but it's a perfect example), you would often run Tera Water to make your Jet Punch a blazing 120 base power priority move. STAB Tera does not solve that, it only makes it so the meta will likely revolve around the mons which enjoy adaptability on their stabs.
Non STAB Tera just doesn't solve the issue of unpredictability.
Banning Tera Blast
I think Banning Tera Blast is one that would have to be done in tandem with another solution. Tera Blast at this point is hardly even used, and most mons abusing the Tera mechanic are using available coverage anyways.
Also, Tera Blast has an opportunity cost of having to run a generally bad move. If you end up not Tera-ing the mon with Tera Blast, then you're left with a 80 base power Normal Move. That's a HUGE opportunity cost for most mons wanting to Tera.
So what do I think?
First and foremost, I genuinely think we need to wait on making action on Tera. We are with this metagame, as others have stated, for the next few years, so let's not make rash decisions. I, and many others, think Tera is a cool mechanic and would love to see it stay. I think we should strive to keep it unclaused and unbanned for as long as we can, barring breakage of the format. This may take time to get used to new play patterns. I genuinely think that Tera is going to take some relearning and mindset shifts on how to play singles Pokemon. That is okay. It is okay to have different generations play differently.
I can potentially foresee a few conclusions happening over the coming weeks/months.
One such potential is a shift of our way of thinking of the game as "this mon is generally powerful" rather than "this mon is meant to check this situation". Generalists become the way to play due to their nature to be able to answer whatever is thrown at them. This will make for a unique metagame compared to other generations.
I could also see Tera feeling like the unpredicatability of pre team preview days. Where you have to preserve your Pokemon due to unknown elements. This makes for exciting play patterns where you have to always be aware of something that could potentially exist, and could change how you evaluate the game state, and make turn by turn decisions.
Much like team preview, once the mechanic is revealed in game, you now know how to play the following turns. Much like when your opponent's entire team is revealed in pre team preview days. I think this is unique, and will make Gen 9 a different play experience from past generations. I think that is a good thing.
Basically, I think we need to be patient with Tera. This metagame is a far cry from how bad Dynamax meta was, or Genesect meta was, or Swift Swim Rain was... and so on and so forth. Let's give it some time. Tera, by design, is a mechanic which is going to take time to get used to.
Well, what if we find that it's broken, what do you think Kyle?
I think if we find that Tera is an uncompetitive mechanic, in whatever way, we ban in it its entirety, and set up two separate ladders. Tera OU, and non Tera OU. Any solution to nerf Tera feels like it is likely missing the point, and frankly, is going to warp the metagame in ways which aren't intended. That feels horrific. Let's not go back to Gen 5 by dancing around the point of broken mechanics (Aldaran's Prop) and blowing up the metagame surrounding them, let's just cut it off where it stands if we think it's too good.
Much like complex bans on Pokemon, I don't think we should do complex bans on mechanics. Make things simple. We either have it, or we don't.
Fwiw from my experience playing on the ladder, Tera has felt strong but not gamebreaking.
I am also of the opinion of if there are obvious abusers of the mechanic which are pushing it over the edge, we should ban them. Pokemon are the sum of their parts. If Dragonite is too good with Tera, get rid of Dnite. That's fine. As an example, one of the core reasons that manaphy was banned in gen 5 was for having hydration in perma rain. Sometimes Pokemon get banned due to mechanics of a generation.
Sorry if my thoughts are discombobulated, but I hope they came across reasonably well. Thanks again for the great discussion, I know we all want to make a metagame that we enjoy playing, and continue to want to play after the generation is over (cough, gen 8, cough). Toods
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That's fair but keep in mind smogon's policies are to create what can be replicated on cart. Randomness in queues are always going to be a factor, but unless you're in a cart tournament there's no way to handshake on tera types or mod in a solution to it.
Its the same thing as sleep clause; if you break it on cart, someone considers it as you forfeiting the game, showdown's only mod is making it so that automatically happens, you can either just leave the game on cart to replicate that or play it out and call it a win regardless for yourself. In random queue you can mentally choose your rules and what you can call a win for the opponent breaking them, in discord queue you both mutually agree on the format so its unlikely to be broken.
Tera types you can't do that, you can make it out as them forfeiting if they use tera, but you can't say they're forfeiting by not giving you the types because how can they? This only works through discord, local, or other social media queueing where you can handshake share tera type charts and write them down.
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Banning Terablast does nothing. I agree that it's a bad restriction.
Showing the type is the ideal restriction. Saying "but it doesn't work on cartridge tho" doesn't really work. If you're playing friends or in discord tourneys, it does work, and if you're doing random link battles, people rarely actually play those by OU rules anyway. Plus it isn't Smogon's job to monitor random link battles.
You already can't make a team that covers everything. You cover the high percentage stuff and play around the rest. Terastalizing makes it easier to cover more options.
Making it one user only is honestly far from ideal, as it removes basically all the defensive utility and depth that Terastalizing brings to the meta, and I'd prefer an outright ban to this or restricting the type to only be STAB types, as both entirely remove what makes the mechanic interesting in the first place.
Outright banning it leaves S/V as a metagame that is just Sw/Sh but without enough bulk to handle the new offensive threats.
Terastalization can be used defensively to deal with these scenarios. It's too early into the metagame to warrant an outright ban. Nobody has gotten used to the mechanic.
It's Gen 7, and your 20% health Skarmory just performed an emergency whirlwind on a sweeper, and in comes the opponent's Gyarados. They've neither shown their Mega (they also have a Scizor) nor their Z crystal, so you can't be certain what set you're looking at - but you don't suffer an Intimidate drop, so Z Bounce seems the more likely, especially when Scizor makes better use of the Mega slot anyway. In the back you have a physically defensive Tangrowth and a physically defensive Zapdos; Tangrowth is healthy, but Zapdos is at 45%.
In a stable meta, you know it's almost certainly packing a Z crystal and Zapdos can handle it once he's in; you messed up to be put in this position, but click Roost and the worst case scenario is that he attacks, you bring in Zapdos, and he either switches out or dies to Discharge. In a chaotic meta, maybe he's actually Mega Gyarados with Waterfall and Moxie, clicks the Mega only after Skarmorny dies, and now he can take the Discharge before killing with a +1 Crunch, so now you've lost two pokemon instead of one. At least Tangrowth can take a +1 Mega Gyarados and stop the bleeding.
That's a worse set (and forces Scizor into a worse set, as well) but hey, Team Chaos led to a loss.
Terastalization is like that. People are still using inferior sets that are threatening solely because they're unexpected, but once the better sets are identified, Team Chaos takes a back seat and team building will be much more predictable. You'll still get surprised by novelties, but as long as it's a rare surprise rather than an every game occurrence, that's part of the game.
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To summarize my thoughts from the metagame discussion thread, I really like terastallization and think it is competitive as is. I don't think the variance it creates is any more than previous mechanics like Z moves, hidden power, random resist berries or sashes, or even any metagame pre team preview. I appreciate the team synergy opportunities the mechanic grants as well. I accept the criticisms of the mechanic, I just don't think they're as big a deal as people are saying. I also think that we will get better at scouting tera types as the metagame evolves. So a lot of the frustration I think people are having is temporary.
It seems a lot of the people who lean in my direction have already stated why they think so so I won't relitigate that here unless people ask.
Instead, I want to push back a bit on this idea that terastallization encourages short term thinking. In my experience I don't actually find this to be true.
On the ladder, I've found myself in situations like this all the time:
It's, say, my Gholdengo against an opposing Great Tusk. I've got tera flying on Gholdengo so I greedily click it, avoid headlong rush, and do a decent chunk to Great Tusk with Shadow Ball. Cool, yes, I've won this interaction. I've made the play that puts me ahead for this specific turn. But then, later on, I still lose, because another member of my team needed the extra damage boost from tera to actually break through the opposing team. Plus, since I used my tera first, my opponent can actually tera something more relevant and threatening, because they know I can't tera anything else again.
I feel like if tera was such a short-term mechanic, the best strategy would almost always be to tera at the first opportunity it's any good, but I really don't think this is the case. I find myself thinking of tera a lot more like a resource that needs strategy to learn when to spend than something greedy.
If we're talking about making a "competitive" metagame, where we define "competitive" as a game where the player with the better preparation, strategy, and decision-making almost always wins, I actually think that all the proposed decisions, from no action to modifying to outright banning will lead to a competitive metagame. I don't get the sense that I can play like shit, click tera when it's obviously beneficial, and then win. I also don't get the sense that removing tera will make the game uncompetitive.
The only action I would support are no action or tera on team preview. Banning tera blast is pointless I feel. Trying to restrict the number of Pokemon that can use it is artificial and hacky. Only allowing previous stab tera actually makes the mechanic way more one dimensional and offensive.
Basically if we're going to make substantial changes to the mechanic just to bend over backwards to keep it, we might as well just ban it. And if it does get banned I will probably just spend more time grinding battle spot singles and VGC than the Smogon ladders.
TL;DR banning tera is "competitive" but uninteresting. Keeping or lightly modifying tera makes the game more interesting and strategic, at the cost of a bit more variance than gen8.
It seems a lot of the people who lean in my direction have already stated why they think so so I won't relitigate that here unless people ask.
Instead, I want to push back a bit on this idea that terastallization encourages short term thinking. In my experience I don't actually find this to be true.
On the ladder, I've found myself in situations like this all the time:
It's, say, my Gholdengo against an opposing Great Tusk. I've got tera flying on Gholdengo so I greedily click it, avoid headlong rush, and do a decent chunk to Great Tusk with Shadow Ball. Cool, yes, I've won this interaction. I've made the play that puts me ahead for this specific turn. But then, later on, I still lose, because another member of my team needed the extra damage boost from tera to actually break through the opposing team. Plus, since I used my tera first, my opponent can actually tera something more relevant and threatening, because they know I can't tera anything else again.
I feel like if tera was such a short-term mechanic, the best strategy would almost always be to tera at the first opportunity it's any good, but I really don't think this is the case. I find myself thinking of tera a lot more like a resource that needs strategy to learn when to spend than something greedy.
If we're talking about making a "competitive" metagame, where we define "competitive" as a game where the player with the better preparation, strategy, and decision-making almost always wins, I actually think that all the proposed decisions, from no action to modifying to outright banning will lead to a competitive metagame. I don't get the sense that I can play like shit, click tera when it's obviously beneficial, and then win. I also don't get the sense that removing tera will make the game uncompetitive.
The only action I would support are no action or tera on team preview. Banning tera blast is pointless I feel. Trying to restrict the number of Pokemon that can use it is artificial and hacky. Only allowing previous stab tera actually makes the mechanic way more one dimensional and offensive.
Basically if we're going to make substantial changes to the mechanic just to bend over backwards to keep it, we might as well just ban it. And if it does get banned I will probably just spend more time grinding battle spot singles and VGC than the Smogon ladders.
TL;DR banning tera is "competitive" but uninteresting. Keeping or lightly modifying tera makes the game more interesting and strategic, at the cost of a bit more variance than gen8.
Please correct me if I am misinterpreting your reasoning, but by this logic isn't banning Terastillization also a failure of cartridge simulation? I don't see how agreeing to not use a generational mechanic is really different from agreeing to tell each other tera types beforehand. Both are a Showdown-forced implementation of an additional rule that two people could easily agree to follow in a cartridge battle.
It isn't really like changing game code to make Dynamax last only one turn. That would be more like if someone suggested we keep tera but remove the same-type adaptability boost, or modify the game so they lose STAB on their old typing. I would not suggest either of those things, but they aren't really comparable to a type reveal.
Might as well contribute to the main thread topic since I'm posting. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of showing tera types in team preview. However, one of the most common complaints I've seen is that people don't like how you are forced to guess your opponent's tera type, and that would at least fix that issue. I would rather have the types revealed than lose the mechanic altogether, since I think it adds a fun additional dimension to teambuilding that I would be loath to give up entirely. So, you know. Spirit of compromise?
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